PDA

View Full Version : How are Daemon of Chaos for an experienced player?



TrueKin
20-02-2012, 08:28
So, I've been playing 40k for some years now, with our gaming group's focus has moved steadily from fantasy to 40k all the while, being now in the situation where we almost never play FB. I bought a load of Daemons for fantasy a few years ago, but the army never got quite the use it was meant to. It wasn't that fun to play, and opponents tended to whine about them even though I generally avoided the worst cheese.

Now I'm wondering whether I should transfer the Daemons to 40k. I already play Kabalite-based Dark Eldar and Tzeentchian Chaos Marines, and consider myself a rather good general. Not great, but I manage to at least put up a fight against most enemy lists, if not win.

The models I have include some 50 Bloodletters, 40 of Daemonettes and Horrors, 6 Flamers and Bloodcrushers, and Heralds for each of the mentioned entries.

Then to the real question: How do the Daemons play? I've understood that they're a lower tier, highly close combat oriented army that always has to deepstrike. Any kind of additional information would help.

My regular opponents include Orcs, Eldar, Tau, Dark Angels, Nids, IG and Necrons. Most of these don't worry me, but how well can Daemons hold against (rather meched out) IG and Necrons?

Thanks in advance.

Vampiric16
20-02-2012, 10:08
They can have a few nasty set ups. Fatecrusher is the obvious one: Fateweaver conferring a rerollable 3+ and 5++ to Bloodcrushers makes them nigh unkillable. I faced a similar thing at a tournament a few weeks back, where Fateweaver accompianied 3 daemon princes and a Bloothirster. Not a nice thing to face, especially when he turned my Trygon into a spawn early in the game...

Totally not a bot
20-02-2012, 10:32
Thanks in advance. Well, that depends on the list. I mean, most of our Ranged anti-vehicle weaponry, we get from Tzeentch stuff. One of the reasons that Ranged anti-vehicle weaponry is important is that, often we will find us self open on the battle field with no cover save. I know we have 5++, but often that doesn't really mean the big deal. When we deep strike, even a vehicle shaken result is a fantastic result, especially against Hard Mechanized IG, because that means less fire and a larger amount of our stuff is able to get into CC, which is the place where you want be. But going mono Tzeentch isn't the best idea either, since they aren't really the greatest CC fighters.

I would say, having something from each god is generally a good idea. Khorne being great in CC and are very offensive, Nurgle being not so killy, but really good at sitting on Objectives and really be a pain in the *** of your opponent. Also, a huge part of their Weakness is in the Deep strike. While the only thing that helps them not to scatter being Chaos Icons, they are also very expensive on top of it. But a good Daemon player should be able to win against Necrons and Imperial guards, but being unlucky with their Deep strike and having your second wave come in instead of your first wave, can really shoot your chances into the grave pretty fast, regardless of what opponent you face.

TrueKin
20-02-2012, 11:02
We generally don't use any special characters in my group, just to avoid lists like the one you mentioned. It's not really a rule, but no one brings a SC even when their opponent emphasizes that it's ok with them to use one.

I'm not really looking for strong set ups, but rather trying to learn how the army actually plays, and hoping to know if one can write casual lists that manage against (semi-/)casual lists of other armies. Is it possible to make varying, working lists like with DE and CSM?

I'd go Tzeentch with the Daemons, to make them match my Tzeentchian CSM, with the occasional other God's unit to bring variety to the lists.

Spider-pope
20-02-2012, 11:58
We generally don't use any special characters in my group, just to avoid lists like the one you mentioned. It's not really a rule, but no one brings a SC even when their opponent emphasizes that it's ok with them to use one.

I'm not really looking for strong set ups, but rather trying to learn how the army actually plays, and hoping to know if one can write casual lists that manage against (semi-/)casual lists of other armies. Is it possible to make varying, working lists like with DE and CSM?

I'd go Tzeentch with the Daemons, to make them match my Tzeentchian CSM, with the occasional other God's unit to bring variety to the lists.

The answer to your question of varying, working lists is yes and no. Yes you can take a variety of different units a variety of different ways which does impact the way the army can play - Tzeentch heavy to out shoot your opponent etc - but at the same time every Daemon army is going to deploy the same way through Daemonic assault, you're always going to have half your army in reserve. You're never going to be able to field a mechanised Daemon army, like you could with a Dark Eldar or Chaos Space Marine force for example.

They can certainly compete with other armies, you won't have any inherent problems taking on a casual list with a casual Daemon list. But if you are looking for a force with a variety of playstyles that can be one thing one game, and a massively different thing another i wouldnt really say Daemons are the army to go with.

TrueKin
20-02-2012, 12:40
The answer to your question of varying, working lists is yes and no. Yes you can take a variety of different units a variety of different ways which does impact the way the army can play - Tzeentch heavy to out shoot your opponent etc - but at the same time every Daemon army is going to deploy the same way through Daemonic assault, you're always going to have half your army in reserve. You're never going to be able to field a mechanised Daemon army, like you could with a Dark Eldar or Chaos Space Marine force for example.

They can certainly compete with other armies, you won't have any inherent problems taking on a casual list with a casual Daemon list. But if you are looking for a force with a variety of playstyles that can be one thing one game, and a massively different thing another i wouldnt really say Daemons are the army to go with.

I play my main army, Dark Eldar, mostly mechanized, but I can run about any possible list in games of 2k or less points, with the temporary exception of Haemonculi Covens. My CSM footslog with a few occasional tanks, and use mostly mid-to-long range shooting. With Daemons as a melee oriented army I'd probably have enough variety between armies, so what I'm after in the Daemon codex' internal variety is that every list won't be exactly the same, that the "rarer" choices (ie. any other than troop) include more than one truly viable choice. Most armies will have more or less the same Troops anyway (with Daemons having possibly the most true variety in that aspect?)

So, going Tzeentch my lists would by default include units of Horrors, a couple of Flamers and Heralds as HQ, and Daemon Princes as the Heavy Support, with the other Gods' units (and the amount and size of those) changing from match to match. Maybe I'd even get myself a Soul Grinder!

With this list the basic approach would be to repeat following steps in their random order:
1) Deep Strike
2) Horrors and similar units just close enough to fire, fighty units into combat asap after DS.
3) ???
4) Profit!

fluffymcfluff
20-02-2012, 14:19
Alot depends on daemonic assault and how you split your force. When I play I try to make my primary and secondary wave as close to the same as possible, that way I still have options if the dice gods dont agree with me. Eternal warrior and fearless on every unit is great, along with the invulnerable saves.

I also play a mono Khorne army which leaves me with no shooting unless I field soul grinder. That being said I have to play very aggressivly, increasing the chances of DS mishaps, overall I have had very good games with my Daemons, placed 1st,2nd and 4th in the last three tournaments I played in. Some armies can give Daemons headaches, e.g. Grey Knights, Mech guard and especially Dark Eldar, all their poisoned weapons and the fact that they are very moblie can make them hard to chase down. Once you start getting your units into CC (if you can get them into CC) the tide of the game changes dramatically. I really enjoy playing Daemons win or lose, I lost most of my games when I first started playing them. Once you figure out their steep learning curve they are quite fun to play, most of my opponets groan when I pull the daemons out now.

TrueKin
20-02-2012, 17:57
Alot depends on daemonic assault and how you split your force. When I play I try to make my primary and secondary wave as close to the same as possible, that way I still have options if the dice gods dont agree with me. Eternal warrior and fearless on every unit is great, along with the invulnerable saves.

Thanks, this cleared the whole gameplay question a lot. But an answer always spawns new questions... Fortunately I'm convinced enough to go get the Daemon codex tomorrow, and the book should answer those new questions.


I also play a mono Khorne army which leaves me with no shooting unless I field soul grinder. That being said I have to play very aggressivly, increasing the chances of DS mishaps, overall I have had very good games with my Daemons, placed 1st,2nd and 4th in the last three tournaments I played in. Some armies can give Daemons headaches, e.g. Grey Knights, Mech guard and especially Dark Eldar, all their poisoned weapons and the fact that they are very moblie can make them hard to chase down. Once you start getting your units into CC (if you can get them into CC) the tide of the game changes dramatically.

Fortunately I won't be likely playing against any Grey Knights or Dark Eldar. :)


I really enjoy playing Daemons win or lose, I lost most of my games when I first started playing them. Once you figure out their steep learning curve they are quite fun to play.

This is what I like to hear. I like to play "difficult" armies, like Wood Elves in Fantasy, and started Dark Eldar on the basis of hearing that the army requires actual thinking. I'm quite used to losing already, so the difficulties of starting won't be a problem. :D

Rated_lexxx
20-02-2012, 22:24
The problem with Demons you can be a great general but it's hard to have tactics ahead of time because of all the randomness of the army.

Like you want to have the icon land first so your things can deep strike on target but you may not get that guy out till later turns

Then when they deep strike you can't be sure where there going to land. It is a challenge to play the army because it more comes down to a reactive style of playing more then a planning ahead of time one

Gop
21-02-2012, 02:03
Yes, demons are a bit random, but great fun due to the large mixture of different stuff you can take. I've seen the army win big and be crushed, especially if the DS goes bad. I'd say they are mid tier but can be better depending on the build.

Why not make the demons for both 40k and WHFB? If you put them on round bases, you can get square bases with a round cutout in them, meaning you can use them for both games with minimal hassle.

TheMav80
21-02-2012, 02:13
I tried a Daemon army but really disliked the randomness of it. I thought it would be sort of fun at first, but it just proved to be too frustrating.

Having only half your army (and maybe not even the half you want) on the table against the entirety of your opponents army. No way to increase the chances of your reserves coming in faster. No way to assault after you deepstrike in. There was just too much luck involved.

fluffymcfluff
21-02-2012, 02:42
The randomness and the luck of the dice is why I started Daemons, not to mention the sweet models. It seemed like every game I played with my Space marines or Orks was becoming the same, with Daemons every game is different.

If the Daemons could deploy their whole army like others or even assault after deep striking they would be broken IMO. The randomness of daemonic assault balances the army out, if I am lucky enough to get my whole army by turn 3 I usually win, if not its an uphill battle. I personally just like to play, win or lose, and using daemons has really brought my interest back into 40k. I would prefer to play an army that is challenging rather than the (easy button) armies than seem to be popping up. As alway to each thier own.

insectum7
21-02-2012, 10:03
I also play a mono Khorne army which leaves me with no shooting unless I field soul grinder. That being said I have to play very aggressivly, increasing the chances of DS mishaps, overall I have had very good games with my Daemons. . .


'Scuse me for butting in, but would you mind expanding on the Khorne army you tend to run and why you like it? I've really liked the models for a long time, have some Bloodthirsters floating around from earlier Chaos armies, just put some Bloodletters together and am thinking of expanding to a full daemon force. I'm really curious about your list/s and how you tend to run it.


Perhaps more importantly I'm wondering if I'll need to buy Flesh Hounds to have a useful army. They're expensive and I like every other Khorne model waaaay more, though the Flesh Hounds seem good for their speed.

TrueKin
21-02-2012, 14:07
The problem with Demons you can be a great general but it's hard to have tactics ahead of time because of all the randomness of the army.

It is a challenge to play the army because it more comes down to a reactive style of playing more then a planning ahead of time one

Sounds pretty good to me. I actually tend to play in the moment more than plan several turns ahead, so that suits me well. :D


I tried a Daemon army but really disliked the randomness of it. I thought it would be sort of fun at first, but it just proved to be too frustrating.


The randomness and the luck of the dice is why I started Daemons, not to mention the sweet models. It seemed like every game I played with my Space marines or Orks was becoming the same, with Daemons every game is different.

If the Daemons could deploy their whole army like others or even assault after deep striking they would be broken IMO. The randomness of daemonic assault balances the army out, if I am lucky enough to get my whole army by turn 3 I usually win, if not its an uphill battle. I personally just like to play, win or lose, and using daemons has really brought my interest back into 40k. I would prefer to play an army that is challenging rather than the (easy button) armies than seem to be popping up. As alway to each thier own.

I've loved every random factor that I've used, especially Night Goblin Fanatics. Sometimes they work wonders, sometimes they cause more damage to my own army than the enemy. That's what makes it fun after you learn to accept the risks. ;)

What comes to the "easy button" armies, I (too) find boring. I tried out Blood Angels and Grey Knights, and my first fantasy army was WoC. All of them were too simple, which caused me to switch to new armies soon.



Why not make the demons for both 40k and WHFB? If you put them on round bases, you can get square bases with a round cutout in them, meaning you can use them for both games with minimal hassle.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Bought the codex today, along with some Heavy Support. Now I'm looking forward to my first battle with Daemons, which should be within the next two weeks.

Thanks for your help. :)

fluffymcfluff
21-02-2012, 15:05
@Insectum7

My 2000 point Daemon list;

Blood thirster
-unholy might,

Blood thirster
-unholy might,

Bloodletters x 15
-Icon

Bloodletters x 15

Bloodletters x 10

Bloodcrushers x 6
-Icon, Instrument

Daemon prince
-Ironhide, daemonic flight, unholy might

Daemon prince
-Ironhide, daemonic flight, unholy might

Soul grinder
-vomit, phlem.

Thats basically it, I don't own any more bloodcrushers or they would be in the list. I would really like to get Flesh hounds in the near future just to have them for more options.

I like this army because it's a close combat nightmare for my opponets, everything in the list ignores armor and FNP, In the last tournament I played in I went against a Blood Angles player with the whole FNP spam list, I just gave him the Muwahaha you powers are weak old man, and tabled him by turn 4. My soul grinder and one of my daemon princes didn't even come in from reserves that game, which made it even better.

insectum7
21-02-2012, 18:54
army list. . .

That's great! I'm pleased to hear about success with an army like that. Every model is cool. I'm encouraged even more by the Daemon Princes with wings. I have some old, old Bloodthirster models from the 2nd Ed era and they would make great Daemon Princes, as well as two of the later models for the full B-thirsters. This may be easier to get going than I thought.

TrueKin
21-02-2012, 19:13
I'm wondering about whether it's worth the cost to take the wings for the Princes. The upgrade costs almost as much as one naked Daemon Prince, and the Prince will DS somewhere near the enemy anyway.

By the way, after reading the codex for a while, the amount of Daemons I have from fantasy make for possibly my largest 40k army now. Can't wait till I get to play! :D

fluffymcfluff
21-02-2012, 19:45
I'm wondering about whether it's worth the cost to take the wings for the Princes. The upgrade costs almost as much as one naked Daemon Prince, and the Prince will DS somewhere near the enemy anyway.

By the way, after reading the codex for a while, the amount of Daemons I have from fantasy make for possibly my largest 40k army now. Can't wait till I get to play! :D



Wings are great, they give your Daemon princes mobility which the army in whole lacks, IMO they are well worth the points cost. Having an 18" assault range makes your opponet think twice about getting in rapid fire range, it also gives them a chance to take cover faster if needed. I think of them as an American express card, don't leave home without them.

insectum7
21-02-2012, 22:08
It surprised me a bit to see the wings too, but it makes a lot of sense to have two winged nasties on the board in turn one. I was originally thinking that the hounds would do the job, but the MC attacks make a good argument.

The other thing that surprised me is the Unholy Might on the B-thirsters. 6 S10 Monstrous Creature attacks on the charge doesn't seem that much better than 6 S9 MC attacks on the charge. The only time I can see it making a difference is being able to wound Wraithlords on a 2 and killing Ork Warbosses in one hit. Both of which are actually pretty impressive, just seemingly rare.

Do the Daemon Princes have the mark of Khorne BTW? If they don't I'm wondering if it'd be worth the swap with the B-thirsters Unholy Might.

Please excuse the pesky questions, I'm just really intrigued by your setup.

Vedar
21-02-2012, 22:42
Wings cost too much on the Daemon Prince. Some games I run 3 bare Daemon prices at 80 points each. Cheap enough not worry about get killed quick but scary enough for you opponent to have to deal with.

Soulgrinders always die to fast for me. Being a vechicle they seem to be targeted first as they can be taken down in one shot while Deamon Princes can't.

Mech heavy lists are a problem. Bolts of Tzeentch are only STR 8, expensive and you probably don't have many in your list. Melee means you need 6's to hit most times and having a Bloodthirster kill a 35 point Rhino is a bit of a waste.

The Daemon codex is pretty fun, but when Deamon codex 2.0 gets here I hope they take the stuff that does not work out and make it a little less random.

fluffymcfluff
21-02-2012, 23:11
Blood thirsters are only STR 7 on their profile, unholy might brings them to 8, then FC makes it 9.

I don't waste time on my MC's with rhinos, thats what bloodletters and bloodcrushers are for, the bloodthirster will take care of landraiders, monoliths and other high armor nasties. When 10 bloodletters charge a rhino, thats 30 STR 5 attacks on AV 10, they usually don't survive, even if it is 6's to hit. If I only get glancing hits its still enough to make it immobile for a turn or possibly take a weapon off. Worse case scenario, I don't do jack, they get out, gun down 3/4 of the squad, then you get to see your opponets face when 3-4 bloodletters destroy a 10 man tactical squad in your next turn.

I agree a naked Daemon prince is still nasty, I just prefer the mobility of wings, makes it easier to cut the board off and herd your opponet into a corner. It is also helpful to get into the assault quicker buying time for my less mobile units to close in and get their assaults off.

My soul grinder also dies fairly quickly most games, the only advantage is they are shooting at him instead of my other units. One of my best tactics is the fact that most of my opponets under estimate my bloodletters, and that becomes their downfall. If I owned another soul grinder I would use it but sadly I don't.

Sometimes I will use the mark of Khorne to fill out points if needed but its not a priority.

Paint it Red
22-02-2012, 00:35
The problem with Demons you can be a great general but it's hard to have tactics ahead of time because of all the randomness of the army.

Like you want to have the icon land first so your things can deep strike on target but you may not get that guy out till later turns

Then when they deep strike you can't be sure where there going to land. It is a challenge to play the army because it more comes down to a reactive style of playing more then a planning ahead of time one

This +1. Experience does not multiple into more wins for daemons. It does not matter if you are competent or the greatest general ever, the innate randomness of the army is a limiting factor. The better players will have better results with other armies like msu mechanised space wolves.

insectum7
22-02-2012, 04:18
Blood thirsters are only STR 7 on their profile, unholy might brings them to 8, then FC makes it 9.

Ahh, yes, I missed that. I'm so used to them having S 8 base from prior editions.

I bet if I scrounged around a bit I could fill out a similar army for under $200, which is really tempting.

madden
22-02-2012, 07:41
Try upgrading one thirster to skarbrand the reroll to hit bubble of his is golden for a pure khorne list sure your opponent gets it as well but he's stronger base more attacks and has breath of chaos.

ErictheGreen
22-02-2012, 08:43
From what I've heard and seen, there's a few must haves in the army - flesh hounds of khorne if youre likely to face grey knights (so you can laugh at them in combat with a 2+ invun), fiends (because they are cavalry and can rip apart t Amos on the charge). The rest is really up to you. I've seen 4 heralds in a lot of lists because they take care of anti tank, being mini mc and all

Fawful
22-02-2012, 11:42
Blood crushers are pretty much as close as you can get to a must have in daemon armies. Flesh hounds are fun against grey knights but they pretty much suck against all the other armies. And even against grey knights their 2+ invulnerable can be disabled. Bloodthirsters make for great hq's. Plaguebearers are the best troops choice since they can sit on an objective and be fairly unmoveable. I wouldn't recommend four heralds because other choices are either more survivable, cheaper or plain better at the job (sometimes al three at the same time). Also, if you take grinders don't take princes and vice versa. They don't mix well, because having a single vehicle on the board allows your opponent to take it down quickly with all of his anti tank fire.

Darnok
23-02-2012, 09:19
While I wouldn't call myself an experienced player, I find Daemons to be interesting in every single game. The way they work means that no two games are ever the same, and you always have to work for your game. This is a big part of why I like them.

As for cheaper Fleshhounds: get these (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038), and paint them like this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?319385-The-Tale-of-40k-Painters-2011-2012-MONTH-2-%28SEP-completed-work-amp-OCT-WIP%29&p=5816253&viewfull=1#post5816253) (or however you think "khornish" should look).

clangedinn
12-03-2012, 19:13
Daemons are great fun!! My tourney list is a fatey variant and plays very well even with the randomness of the deployment and reserves, i like the randomness as it keeps me on my toes and thinking. For the most part many of the units are like a grenade you pull the pin throw it at the enemy and hope it explodes correctly, if not anything else it will be a great show lol. But if you dont mind changing tactics, dealing with not having what you want at the time you want it and have a true love of watching folks who tell you that your army is not competitive get their faces bashed in then daemons are for you. I dont remember but i used to have a link to our daemon thread down in groups and factions called daemons gone wild where we discuss all things daemons and the some. check it out :)