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View Full Version : A newbie's question : Why is Empire underrated in 'tier-rankings'?(Or is it?



Sinsigel
22-02-2012, 13:40
I might be drawing conclusions too hastily, but I have yet to see any articles putting Empire at the so-called 'top tiers' along with skavens, dark elves, daemons of chaos, etc. According to my perspective(a HE player), Empire has many decent factors which are even more so when fighting high elves : hordes, strong & relatively cheap(compared to dwarfs, for example) artillery, extremely tough 'monster'(Steam Tank, that is. Although it's technically chariot, I find this description more fitting), insanely strong magic defence(may their 8th army book remove the extra dispel dice rule!), not to mention decent heavy / light cavalry. The former four factors, especially the fourth factor just maul BoH-less High Elves, since magic is perhaps one of the few ways to deal with artillery, hordes AND Steam Tanks.

But despite such seemingly decent factors and the potential synergy between them, I don't see many instances where they are rated as one of those dreaded power factions in 'tier ratings'. Why would it be? I know the question might sound absurd, but it has been one of my greatest mysteries, and I would welcome any enlightening comments. Thank You.

Arctaeus
22-02-2012, 13:53
People see Empire as "average". True, they have access to everything, but there are no specialists in the army. This means that they can't dominate tournaments/competitive games with a "cheesy build"

Dwarves do Gunlines disgustingly well. Dark Elves have the big gribbly hydras. Skaven have megahordes of slaves and HellPit Abominations, and Daemons of chaos have the best core troops in the game (with characters to buff them up further).

I may well be wrong though, because I've only ever played Dwarves, Bretonnians, High Elves and Vampire Counts (and i'm a Vampire Counts player) :)

The Low King
22-02-2012, 13:58
Lots of people are obsessed with the idea of gunlines, so sometimes dwarfs and empire get hate because of that perception.

However, the steam tank and Arch-lector on War alter are very nasty.


For example:




Dwarves do Gunlines disgustingly well.

Empire do gunlines better. Gunlines dont work in this edition.

Drongol
22-02-2012, 16:04
Empire is actually one of the stronger armies out there, but I wouldn't quite put them at top-tier.

A war altar and 2 steam tanks, plus cannons and mortars, plus big blocks of halberdiers lead by warrior priests is just a nasty, nasty little list, but it seems that it gets played relatively rarely outside of SE Texas. They get phenomenal magic defense, shooting where it counts, and the aforementioned hordes with hatred and decent strength. Then, of course, they can take a Shadows mage to abuse their magic dominance and get off some nasty spells.

I think part of the problem is that, for most people, The Empire is boring. You just don't see it being fielded very often and as such, people may overlook it a little.

Maoriboy007
22-02-2012, 20:58
For the most part any "broken" stuff in the empire book has more to do with problems in the BRB that the book itself. They have cannons, but thats fair enough, its just cannons are probably are too powerful in 8th from the BRB. Empire have good access to all the BRB lores , but the only problem there is that some of the spells in the BRB are over the top, not Empire wizards. Apart from Warpriest dispel Dice spam, theres nothing really stand outish. I've never seen the problem with the steam tank. Its not much worse than a dragon for standard rank and file to wound, it has a very good armour save true , but then a dragon wont randomly wound and cripple itself, will operate just as well after taking 5 wounds and fights in an opponants turn without being hit automatically.

Askari
22-02-2012, 21:23
They seem underrated to me also, maybe people haven't had enough bad experiences using Mortars yet (seriously, Cannons are nothing on these guys), especially when hit with Withering... and Flaming Sword.

Warrior Priest dispel dice spam seems to be like an Anti-Magic king, but really what it's useful for is sticking dispel dice in the Rod of Power. This indirectly gives me more Power Dice.

Add in Hatred Halberdier hordes, stubborn/unbreakable roadblocks, el cheapo heavy cavalry, Cannons and the ubiquitous Steam Tank (they've definitely learned how to mass-produce them by now) - and you have a real fight.

abdulaapocolyps
22-02-2012, 22:03
I agree with above.its nothing to do with them as an army,its because they aren't as broken as the top tier books.
Tiers are not meant to represent how 'good' an army is as much as how well it can be abused.let's hope all the 8th books are as balanced as those that have come before them.

Manling
22-02-2012, 23:43
empire is great against pretty much every army. They are underrated but i've found that mortars plus Helstorm rockets means you can annihilate hordes with concentrated fire and handgunners are very effective for the points, people look at the bookand say "I cant break this army without thinking. THIS ARMY IS BAD!!"

when i play my army i basically adhere to one Maxim "Where's that Artillery?" because the Empire is the current king of War Machines and anything that can kill enemy horde down to teeny tiny peices. Especially against Elves when even your characters are all T3 and large blast Templates against your hordes of Spearmen or Swordmasters are just devestating.

Sexiest_hero
23-02-2012, 00:46
They suffer from being "Just a bunch of humans" in a very diverse world. The army is rock solid and able to do some very fun/powerful things

Jind_Singh
23-02-2012, 06:34
A good Empire General is one of the things I fear the most - they have EVERYTHING!!!!

- GREAT artillery - better than the stunties (cheaper that's why!)
- Strong shooting (Not quite Dark Elf but close with crossbows/handgunners
- cheap, but effective, horde units - halberdiers with Warrior Priest is nasty!
- SOLID magic defence - only the Stunties do it better
- Sick magic...I know someone mentioned it's the actual lores that are good - but he forgot to mention that it's CHEAP AS CHIPS to get Empire Wizards! Cheap as chips!
- Strange stuff - Steam Tank & War Alter please!!


All in all the Empire is a tough nut to crack - and certain builds would dominate and destroy most armies in the hands of a good General.

m1acca1551
23-02-2012, 06:51
The empire is the most well rounded of all the army books, they are a jack of all trades master of none. As singh said in the hands of a competant general they can be an absolute nightmare to fight, how ever mastering them can be somewhat of an issue. with so many choices newer generals tend to load up on the good gear but fail to use it in combination with other units.

when people talk cheesey builds chosen death star, mino bus, de pendant lord and other all pop to mind, however when you've faced of against a empire general who knows what they are doing they can be worse than the above mentioned.

Empire are an already fairly balanced book, changes in 8th made certain option more powerful. With tbere new army book you will find that the changes will balance them Wp will lose there dispel dice buff and cannons will hopefully lose there laser guided shot.

Wesser
23-02-2012, 08:58
Only problem Empire have is Elves

Unless your Mortars and other shooting wipes out roughly half his army then spearmen are gonna brute force your force down.


Elves aren't finesse armies... not like Warriors of Chaos....they just march straight ahead and slaughter

Arctaeus
23-02-2012, 09:53
Lots of people are obsessed with the idea of gunlines, so sometimes dwarfs and empire get hate because of that perception.

However, the steam tank and Arch-lector on War alter are very nasty.


For example:



Empire do gunlines better. Gunlines dont work in this edition.

Why are Empire gunlines better than Dwarf Gunlines? Given that Dwarf Artillery is always magical, and numerous artillery dice/scatter dice can be re-rolled? I know its more expensive, but as a result it is more effective.

Perhaps in your experience they don't work, but in my experience they *do* work, as i've been crippled by Dwarf artillery on numerous occasions on most games i've played (me as a Vampire Counts player).

Flaming cannons and grudgethrowers destroy ethereal creatures. Runes of forging and accuracy allow the Dwarf player to be more effective. Runes of penetrating increase the damage caused by a grudgethrower (often killing basic line infantry on a 2+ with the basic setup of 1 accuracy and 2 penetrating). Perhaps they haven't worked against you, but 2 cannons and 2 grudge throwers work against me.

Which edition did gunlines work in? Previous editions, when you had to guess ranges?

Arctaeus
23-02-2012, 10:06
Although this is an extreme example, I recently saw a Dwarf Gunline mince a Bretonnian army in a "Battle for the pass" scenario. Three Dwarf Cannons, Two grudge throwers and an organ gun. In the first turn, unit of Knights of the Realm were destroyed, a trebuchet was destroyed, and the game was basically over from that point because the Bretonnian player couldn't deal with the amount of artillery that was brought to bear against him.

Gunlines not effective? I've just learnt to accept that my army is going to get crippled by artillery, I pray that the artillery dice work in my favour, and I take full magic armies to raise my troops back from the dead. Other armies (except Tomb Kings) don't have this luxury (except a single spell in the lore of life, lol)

Askari
23-02-2012, 15:14
Why are Empire gunlines better than Dwarf Gunlines? Given that Dwarf Artillery is always magical, and numerous artillery dice/scatter dice can be re-rolled? I know its more expensive, but as a result it is more effective.


Empire Artillery is much, much cheaper which means you get more pieces for the same points & you lose less when one blows up/is attacked by something. They can also get re-rolls to artillery/scatter dice through Master Engineers. The Mortar and Helstorm Rocket Battery have S3 and S5 Large blast template shots, which in fantasy means you'll hit what 40 guys in a large unit? Dwarves also don't have Mages to improve their artillery through Flaming Sword or Withering and other similar buffs.

CaptainCo
23-02-2012, 16:03
Since when are 5 warmachines considered a gunline? Back in the days when I was playing gunlines it had something to do with "lines" so... Musketeers or Crossbows, 10 wide, and 4 units of them... and artillerie, mind you...


But back on topic:

Empire does get a bit of everything, but apart from one or two certain builds (Walter+2xStank) it is very hard to build a "dominating" list, that clearly stands out in one phase... I guess the "percieved power" of that army is a lot lower than the actual power you might get out of well played list.

Arctaeus
23-02-2012, 16:25
Empire Artillery is much, much cheaper which means you get more pieces for the same points & you lose less when one blows up/is attacked by something. They can also get re-rolls to artillery/scatter dice through Master Engineers. The Mortar and Helstorm Rocket Battery have S3 and S5 Large blast template shots, which in fantasy means you'll hit what 40 guys in a large unit? Dwarves also don't have Mages to improve their artillery through Flaming Sword or Withering and other similar buffs.

Fair enough, I agree with those statements :) I wasn't aware that flaming sword spell affected artillery. Shooting attacks always just stood out as being actual bows/crossbow shooting. I guess I just never read it like that.

Trains_Get_Robbed
23-02-2012, 17:47
Obviously people haven't played against enough tactically savvy Empire generals with decent lists. I can't count how many times my boyz' steam tank has kick some Warriors in the nuts with Flaming Sword of Ruin aka: auto wounds with impact hits, or Withered a some Sarus just to drop a Mortar template on T2. XD

The Low King
23-02-2012, 18:42
Why are Empire gunlines better than Dwarf Gunlines? Given that Dwarf Artillery is always magical, and numerous artillery dice/scatter dice can be re-rolled? I know its more expensive, but as a result it is more effective.

Because you can take 3 mortars for the price of one Runed up Grudgethrower with an engineer. Because empire get rerolls through their cheap engineers. Also because whilst Dwarf warmachines are better against elite infantry like chaos warriors, they lack the ability to do enough damage to large blocks of marauders or slaves.


Perhaps in your experience they don't work, but in my experience they *do* work, as i've been crippled by Dwarf artillery on numerous occasions on most games i've played (me as a Vampire Counts player).

Ive played as and against dwarfs lots of times, we have to cripple the enemy elite units before combat or we cant deal with them.
The warmachines also tend to be dead by turn 4 to warmachine hunters, magic or shooting.


Flaming cannons and grudgethrowers destroy ethereal creatures. Runes of forging and accuracy allow the Dwarf player to be more effective. Runes of penetrating increase the damage caused by a grudgethrower (often killing basic line infantry on a 2+ with the basic setup of 1 accuracy and 2 penetrating). Perhaps they haven't worked against you, but 2 cannons and 2 grudge throwers work against me.

2 cannons and 2 grudge throwers is not a gunline unless its in a 1000 point game. It also isnt enough to kill everything dangerous in a VCs army.


Which edition did gunlines work in? Previous editions, when you had to guess ranges?

Yep. I was very good at guessing ranges (as were a lot/most of dwarf and empire players), my warmachines rarely missed. In 7th Combat started turn 3, turn 4 if i deployed right against the table edge. This edition ive made turn 1 charges with my dwarfs, turn 2 if i went first. Thats a lot more time to shoot people.


Although this is an extreme example, I recently saw a Dwarf Gunline mince a Bretonnian army in a "Battle for the pass" scenario. Three Dwarf Cannons, Two grudge throwers and an organ gun. In the first turn, unit of Knights of the Realm were destroyed, a trebuchet was destroyed, and the game was basically over from that point because the Bretonnian player couldn't deal with the amount of artillery that was brought to bear against him.

Not a gunline (although quite a few warmachines), a gunline needs a lot more shooting that that. Also, that is very lucky rolls. A runed up grudge thrower has a 50% chance of hitting and knights have a 4+/5++ save against it (better if they start with a 1+ save), it will also only hit 6 knights (i think). Cannons are better against them but three dwarf cannons have to be exceptionally lucky to delete a unit of knights, and i assume they were targetting the trebuchets. I assume the dwarfs went first so the organ gun would have been out of range.


Gunlines not effective? I've just learnt to accept that my army is going to get crippled by artillery, I pray that the artillery dice work in my favour, and I take full magic armies to raise my troops back from the dead. Other armies (except Tomb Kings) don't have this luxury (except a single spell in the lore of life, lol)

Not a gunline :D

If you are taking a full magic army then hit the warmachines with any characteristic test spell or cast a toughness/ward save spell. Or take ironcurse icon.
Every army also has good warmachine hunters, TKs have some of the best.
My warmachines tend to be dead by turn 4.

Von Wibble
23-02-2012, 18:43
I agree, Empire are a very nasty army. Their artillery is great, though I have to add their BS shooting isn't bad either - outriders and crossbows provide a lot of back up to the artillery. Comparing empire and dwarfs, I'd say Dwarf shooting was 33% more effecive - for 67% more cost, making empire better at shooting.

For all of that though, they do have some key weaknesses. Priests leading halberdies are great - until they die before the halberdiers strike and the unit then takes more of a beating. Empire can be difficult to deploy since hordes are often used. If the enemy breaks your line in even 1 place you are also in trouble since that's as lot of easy war achine VPs - or some flank charges (and halberdier horders don't like that..)

Maoriboy007
23-02-2012, 20:46
I'd say Dwarf shooting was 33% more effecive - for 67% more cost, making empire better at shooting.To be fair you are paying that extra for some pretty impressive combat stats on top of shooting. Dwarf War Machines and shooters can hold out against a lot of units that would simply roll over thier Empire equivalents.

Freman Bloodglaive
23-02-2012, 21:31
That's why we pay less.

Dwarfs are solid infantry, and Empire less so, but Empire is cheaper and I'd back a bunch of halberds against a Dwarf Warrior unit of equal points value. Getting our licks in first makes a big difference.

The Low King
23-02-2012, 21:39
80 Halberdiers vs 40 Dwarf warriors with GWs.....yikes

Amusingly ive had dwarf warmachine crews (with an engineer) kill Ghorgers and Giants before (weakened before the battle of course). Plus of course they are stubborn.
Thats worth a fair bit. But Empire warmachines (point for point) are better at shooting.

Maoriboy007
23-02-2012, 21:40
That's why we pay less.
Dwarfs are solid infantry, and Empire less so, but Empire is cheaper and I'd back a bunch of halberds against a Dwarf Warrior unit of equal points value. Getting our licks in first makes a big difference.Out of curiosity, how do the numbers run on that matchup? (dont know the cost of dwarves myself)

The Low King
23-02-2012, 21:57
80 halberdiers in horde vs 40 dwarf warriors with GWs in horde (both no FC or upgrades, same price)

I was going to type it out, then i realised i remembered this from another thred:

40 dwarf warriors vs 80 halbediers.

halbediers do ~6 kills, dwarf warriors do ~17
[63 halbediers left, 34 warriors left]
halbediers do ~6 kills, dwarf warriors do ~16
[47 halbediers left, 28 warriors left]
halbediers do ~6 kills, dwarf warriors do ~12
[35 halbediers left, 22 warriors left]
halbediers do ~6 kills, dwarf warriors do ~9
[26 halbediers left, 16 warriors left]
halbediers do ~5 kills, dwarf warriors do ~6
[20 halbediers left, 11 warriors left]
halbediers do ~4 kills, dwarf warriors do ~4
[16 halbediers left, 7 warriors left]
halbediers (1 model not in basecontact anymore, so 1 attack less) do ~3 kills, dwarf warriors do ~2
[14 halbediers left, 4 warriors left]
halbediers (10 models left in contact) do ~2 kills, dwarf warriors do ~1
[13 halbediers left, 2 warriors left]
halbediers (7 models left in contact) do ~1 kill, dwarf warriors does ~1
[12 halbediers left, 1 warrior left]
halbediers (5 models left in contact) do ~1 kill
[12 halbediers left, 0 warriors left]


EDIT: Haha, i win the race!!!

Freman Bloodglaive
23-02-2012, 22:07
Dwarf Warriors with great weapons are 10 points, Halberds are 5 points, so the Halberds outnumber 2 to 1.

80 versus 40, both in 10 wide horde. Neglecting warrior priests or champions. Probably should include General's leadership + BSB for both so neither breaks from combat.

Empire, 30 attacks, 15 hit, 7-8 wounds, 1-2 save. Dwarfs at 34
Dwarfs, 30 attacks, 20 hit, 17 wounds, no saves. Empire on 63 Empire steadfast
Empire, 30 attacks, 15 hit, 7-8 wounds, 1-2 save. Dwarfs at 28
Dwarfs, 28 attacks, 19 hits, 16 wounds, no saves. Empire on 47 Empire steadfast
Empire, 30 attacks, 15 hit, 7-8 wounds, 1-2 save. Dwarfs at 22
Dwarfs, 22 attacks, 19 hits, 14 wounds, no saves. Empire on 33 Empire steadfast
Empire, 30 attacks, 15 hit, 7-8 wounds, 1-2 save. Dwarfs at 16
Dwarfs, 16 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, no saves. Empire on 25 Empire steadfast
Empire, 25 attacks, 13 hit, 6 wounds, 1 save. Dwarfs at 11
Dwarfs, 11 attacks, 8 hit, 7 wounds, no saves. Empire on 18 Empire steadfast
Empire, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 5 wounds, 1 save. Dwarfs at 6
Dwarfs, 6 attacks, 4 hit, 4 wounds, no saves. Empire on 14 Dwarfs pass because they're awesome
Empire, 14 attacks, 7 hit, 3 wound, 0 save, Dwarfs on 3
Dwarfs, 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, no saves. Empire on 12 Dwarfs pass again
Empire, 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound, 0 save, Dwarfs on 0

Which shows that point for point they're pretty much a match. I haven't seen 80 man halberd hordes (I suppose they exist) and I'm not sure anyone uses 40 dwarf warriors so this is really an exercise in mental arithmetic. Steadfast + General + BSB keeps the halberds there in the face of superior killing power so it's fairly obvious you shouldn't field an Empire army without them.

Darn, ninjaed.

Gromdal
24-02-2012, 11:55
Yup, empire beats dwarfs in cc, and in shooting. Oh and the empire has magic, warrior priests, arch lector and wagon, cavalry etc. That is balance.

Von Wibble
24-02-2012, 20:11
In fairness, these comparisons (and indeed the one above) ignore that fact that the dwarfs can deploy their shooting and combat troops on a much narrower front (as it is about quality, not quantity), whilst empire have to spread out a fair bit. A none minmaxed empire force takes a lot of deployment room thanks to its hordes and detachments (even 3 wide)

For example, I played against an empire army with my tmob kings last weekend. The empire deployment zone had a large building (not inhabitable) in the middle of it. Because of this, he had to either a) split his army into 2 or b) deploy together but have some units in very poor positions to play.

He chose option 1, I promtly deployed my troops facing the squishier of the 2 armies (meeting engagement) and did what I could to ignore the rest. Long story short, deploying empire well can be quite a skill whilst its not quite as bad for dwarfs because they take up less space.

The other 2 things dwarfs have on thier side are

1) Great at holding the watch tower

2) Access to easy ld 10 (empire aren't always within generals ld bubble and can only get ld 10 with banner of discipline), with ld 9 no matter where they go.

AmaroK
24-02-2012, 21:58
People underrate the Empire because people dont rate armies, but the nastiest list that can be made with the book and played with less effort. If you look for Chosen deathstars or kaeleth pedants in this army, they are not that obvious (though they exists). Average troops, average stats, avearage chars.... mmm, this canīt be so good. And they are very wrong. Most of the tournaments I have seen in my zone lately (not so many, I have to admit) had an empire army winning it.

My usual rival scored 2nd with an empire army with 1 steam tank and no war altar and I can tell you its a nightmare for any rival. 3 mortars, 2 cannons, 2 big hallberdiers hordes with priests, mages, and 3 pegasus heros, one with the rerolable armor, other with the staff that destroy spells on 4+ and another with the stubborn crown. Add some calvary and pistoliers and you have one though match, really. But you have to think some, its not just to clash units into each other.

Jind_Singh
25-02-2012, 09:36
Damn this thread! I have had Empire under my bed for about 2 years - mostly on sprue - but I have always had a deep love for them. Today I went out and bought two boxes of Greatswords.....

Guess that answers what I have planned for 2012 - building & painting Empire!!!

Jind_Singh
25-02-2012, 09:39
Though I fail to understand the use and significance of Pistolliers in the Empire army - I'm not Warhammer dumb, indeed I am a local terror with an all Goblin army that came 4th in a major tournament last month - but I don't understand the use or function of these almost redundant fast cav choices - yet TWICE on Warseer I've seen people post GOOD things about them!

What am I missing? Pistols don't get mods for moving, are quick to fire, but they still suffer -1 for multiple shots, and long range - so they need 6's to hit pretty much ALL the time!

What's so hot about that?

Askari
25-02-2012, 10:08
So far as I've gathered, Pistoliers used to be better in 7th and some of that legacy has carried over? I don't know, they suck in 8th anyway. Outriders, on the other hand, are quite nice.

AmaroK
25-02-2012, 10:12
Eventhough I donīt play Empire myself, I face it so often during almost 10 years that I can try to explain it (based on how my usual rival plays). Pistoliers were excelent in 6th-7th, specially against non-shooting armies, and as far as pistols could be used in close combats, they were great in that scenario too. Now in 8th, they seem to have no place under the new ruleset. And maybe they can be worse than before, but depending on your list, they can have a place on the field.

My usual rival (and often friend ;P) list is about having strenght and mobility at the same time, and also be able to deal with all armies (all rounder list).
So the "strong" units are: 1 steam tank (2 is too much of a gamble, armies with the tools to deal with it will get free points from both) and then 2 big hordes of hallberdiers with priests, and a bunker for mages. The general can move here and there between these three units. The warmachines make their usual function, 3 mortars to deal with the enemy infantery, 2 cannons (and the steam tank one) to deal with big gribblies.

But just this would make the army too slow and unwieldy. To control the movement phase, he uses 3 heroes on pegasus, becoming 3 wounds effectively and also getting +2 or +1 armor save easily, with some of the nasty magic items tricks (dragonhelm, rerolable armor save, the staff that steal spells on 4+ within 12 inches, even sometimes the crown of command) These 3 are durable and extremely mobile, forcing you to change your movement and strategy to deal with them.

And here is where the pistoliers come into play. In such an army with so many distinctive threaths (warmachines, stank, close combat units, mobile yet durable fast movers), the pistoliers give their best. If you focus on them, the rest of the army is happy of this fact. If you donīt, they will move between your lines and will harass your chaff. They are great redirectors and warmachine hunters as well, so you donīt have to dedicate your pegasus heros on these duties always. They give you flexibility and mobility. Finally they have the vanguard move, that can be useful many times. If there are points left to add a small/mid sized heavy knights unit, they complement each other greatly also.

To sum all of this up, pistoliers seem not that great when you look at them on their own, and they arenīt indeed. But if you make them part of a bigger scheme, they can give you great times. They wonīt win battles on their own most of the times, but they can win you wars. Definitely, a unit to have into account.

m1acca1551
25-02-2012, 10:38
Pistoliers are not the best unit in the world to fight with, and a player can often overlook them in my battle line. Thats until i've manouvered them to redirect a key unit or they are riding through there lines popping shamans, war machines and other small units off.

Outriders are again even nastier, i will happily sit them on a flank all game and force my opponent to face a stand and shoot or ignore at there peril.

To a clever opponent they are cheap VP though and dont take alot of shooting and or magic to take cae of, however they still serve my purpose of redirecting fire away from my artilery battery.

Sh4d0w
25-02-2012, 11:20
It is a dark time when the race of men is considered superior to dawi in the arms race. First of all to the person that said you can get 3 mortars for the price of a runed up gt...the answer is no you can only get two. Also people lets not forget your only allowed a maximum of 3 of the same unit so to the others that said...o yeah empire can have like 15 war machines in under 2k...no. Yes...empire do have cheaper artillery but it is outclassed always. The differences imo lie here: empire have magic which turns the balance in favor to the empire with spells such as withering, flaming sword etc, HOWEVER when it comes to taking down that crucial hydra which next turn will charge you the real difference pays off, the reliability of dwarven artillery with all it's re-rolls can make the difference not to mention we have flaming runes.

Also our crew are stubborn which usually makes a pretty big difference when small chaff units attempt to fight them.

The Low King
25-02-2012, 11:36
1 Grudge Thrower With 2 runes of penetrating and a rune of accuracy with an engineer (seeming as that was the original post) is 170 points.

3 Mortars are 180 points.

Thats only 10 points more (five if you give the engineer a BoP)

Drongol
25-02-2012, 11:59
I think the big difference between Dwarf and Empire artillery is mindset.

A Dwarf cannon is cheaper than an Empire one, but you'll never see that. Instead, it'll be runed up and far more expensive, and the Dwarf player is likely to take one or two.

Meanwhile, the Empire player is more than happy to have three "unreliable" cannons without burning or anything for 300 points.

It's even worse on the GT. As the Low King mentioned, the typical Dwarf player will add on nearly 100 points of upgrades to a war machine "because they're necessary." The typical Empire player can't, and so takes multiple mortars.

vinush
25-02-2012, 12:12
Empire mortars are 75 each, not 60. So 3 would be 225.

Askari
25-02-2012, 13:00
It is a dark time when the race of men is considered superior to dawi in the arms race. First of all to the person that said you can get 3 mortars for the price of a runed up gt...the answer is no you can only get two. Also people lets not forget your only allowed a maximum of 3 of the same unit so to the others that said...o yeah empire can have like 15 war machines in under 2k...no.

They can manage 10 Warmarchines in 2,000, which is quite impressive (3 Mortars, 3 Cannons, 2 Rocket Batteries, 2 Volley Guns). Nevermind the fact I'd always choose 2 Mortars over 1 Grudge Thrower.

Drongol may have a point, the fact that the Empire can't upgrade their warmachines means they just take more instead, which is overall a better investment. Maybe Dwarf players should try multiple cheap machines instead and see how they fare.