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Glenn87
24-02-2012, 20:46
something annoying came up today. I was challenged by someone from our playing group (who doesn't really play alot, at least not when I see it).
After agreeing on 1500pts, I asked him wich army he would be taking, telling him I'd take my Grey Knights.

He bluntly refused to tell me wich army he'll be using. Not even that he's still in doubt, but just a blunt NO!.


I seem to think it's polite and etiquette to tell wich army you'll be playing.

What's the common tought of this?

wyvirn
24-02-2012, 20:53
I'd be a bit miffed; you don't *need* to tell your opponent your army beforehand, but if I extend a courtesy to a stranger, I expect a similar response.

Charistoph
24-02-2012, 20:56
Well, the only problem is if he's playing a DIY Marine Chapter.

Are they Blue, Blue-Grey, Green, or Red?

Remember, you can always say, "No", back and just not play that game.

GotrekFan
24-02-2012, 20:56
I'm with you on this. I generally don't ask 'cos I like to be surprised and it stops me list tailoring, but in a friendly group environment there's no reason to hide the army you're playing and you can bet that this chap will be a nightmare to play against anyway.

Axeman1n
24-02-2012, 21:00
His answer may be skewed by his gaming experience. There are a lot of systems that allow for list tailoring, and he is probably being extra warry of that tendency. Just play him and see if he plays as jerky as he sounds. People who play this way are usually more interested in winning than in having fun. Those who are more interested in winning will be a bear to play against.
I nearly always tell my opponent what I am taking, but sometimes I like to suprise them.

Glenn87
24-02-2012, 21:00
I'd never list tailor, I always have my standardised lists.
That you don't know every army you'll play on a tournament seems pretty logic, but for a friendly game wich is only about bragging rights, it seems like polite to tell your opponent. Joined with the fact that he reacted on a very childish way, I refused the battle...

Vaktathi
24-02-2012, 21:01
Yeah, refusing to tell someone the army is kinda weird...like socially awkward weird. The worst kind of weird.

Unless they think you're going to be a massive munchkin and super-tailor your list, but even then, that's kinda odd, and I'll just assume you're not that kind of player to tailor like that.

Spoik
24-02-2012, 21:19
I'm surprised this is seen as such a problem.

If you aren't going to change your choice of army or your list, why do you want to know?

Glenn87
24-02-2012, 21:43
I'm surprised this is seen as such a problem.

If you aren't going to change your choice of army or your list, why do you want to know?

out of courtesy??

carldooley
24-02-2012, 21:56
when I play casual games, we agree on 3 things:
-where the game is.
-when the game is.
-the point value of the game.


if we want a challenging game, we tell the other player what army we will be bringing so that our opponent can tailor a list against what we 'usually' take. Of course, this can backfire if you bring a list contrary to what you usually bring (ex, you play mech guard and then bring a mob list).

Spoik
24-02-2012, 22:03
I just wondered why you wanted to know in advance which army he was using. To my mind, it's like asking which colour socks he's going to wear.

I'm glad I read this thread. I don't play many pick-up games, and it would never have occured to me that this was a major gaming faux pas.

khaosmarines
24-02-2012, 22:03
Why not ask him why he doesn't want to tell you, there's little to no point speculating.

Also people have different views of social procedure, when list tailoring can be such a huge problem i can see why they may not tell you. I wouldn't have a problem if someone didn't tell me.

He doesn't know you he doesn't know you wont wip out your anti chaos list.

I agree it seems a bit odd but people are odd. I mean what is the go with MLP???

i wouldn't not play because of something like that, unless he was a real tool, but don't judge so quickly.

wyvirn
24-02-2012, 22:33
if we want a challenging game, we tell the other player what army we will be bringing so that our opponent can tailor a list against what we 'usually' take. Of course, this can backfire if you bring a list contrary to what you usually bring (ex, you play mech guard and then bring a mob list).

^^ This is why I don't think letting both players know the enemy's army (not list) is inherently cheating or unfair.

GotrekFan
24-02-2012, 22:51
Perhaps it was more the way he refused rather than the refusal itself?

red_zebra_ve
25-02-2012, 00:41
Play him at least once, before judging, or ask other player from your group about him.
And if you have another army than Grey Knights bring them :evilgrin:

Denny
25-02-2012, 00:57
Play him at least once, before judging, or ask other player from your group about him.
And if you have another army than Grey Knights bring them :evilgrin:

Or you could be really mean and bring . . . Grey Knights. :p

Project2501
25-02-2012, 01:25
I couldn't care less what army he's using. My only concerns are that he sticks to one codex, follows the rules of both the codex and game and provides either an army list if/when asked or at least a rundown.

ehlijen
25-02-2012, 01:58
What exactly is the problem? I routinely do not tell my opponents what army I'll play until I know they've written their list and I've written mine (and I don't want to know what they'll play before either). I'm happy to tell you before deployment or chosing table sides etc, but I prefer the list to be written at the time that information is traded.

What I'm guessing happened here is that the OP volunteered information his opponent didn't want to know and reciprocate, ie if given a chance to learn what army you're playing he might have said 'no thanks, not till the list is written'. That is a perfectly valid way to play the game and not a faux pas at all.

Kevlar
25-02-2012, 03:02
Once you said GK I wouldn't have told you either. Now if you were playing SOB or Tyranids or something sure...

Tarax
25-02-2012, 08:16
Some people have only one army, which will be clear to any possible opponent. Others have multiple armies and then that player has to decide which army to play.
Now, do you have to tell which army you're going to play? Not really, IMO. But I have not had this kind of experience. Sometimes people go up to one another and ask: I would really like to play your ... (insert army of choice here). Or someone may ask: I'd like a (themed) battle with my (eg Eldar) vs your (eg cont. Dark Eldar). Generally we all know each other and get along, so this isn't much of a problem.

Someone mentioned army lists. This, I believe, you do not have to reveal to your opponent. In 40K, more than in Fantasy, models have to be WYSIWYG. If not, you have to tell your opponent. If people ask me what each models has, if not clear, I would say "You'll know it when I use it." Maybe a bit harsh, but to me it's like he's asking all my stats before deciding what to shoot/assault.

xxRavenxx
25-02-2012, 10:04
I really don't see it as poor etiquette. I suspect the guy himself didn't either.

I think this is one of those "us" vs. "them" arguments, wherin one group of people think one way, the other do not.

The first thing I was told in 40k was that when someone asks you for a game, you should both write out a blind list, with no knowledge (where possible) of your opponents items. It prevents someone checking if you have a landraider, then adding 10 melta guns in place of their flamers because they were worried about orks.

Glenn87
25-02-2012, 12:49
I really don't see it as poor etiquette. I suspect the guy himself didn't either.

I think this is one of those "us" vs. "them" arguments, wherin one group of people think one way, the other do not.

The first thing I was told in 40k was that when someone asks you for a game, you should both write out a blind list, with no knowledge (where possible) of your opponents items. It prevents someone checking if you have a landraider, then adding 10 melta guns in place of their flamers because they were worried about orks.


Yeah, quite possible, but if you're list tailoring (wich I'm not, like stated, I've got my standard 1.5K army list), and BOTH know each others army, then you could BOTH list tailor...

I just think it's fair etiquette to state wich army you'll play

Necronartum
25-02-2012, 14:02
For a group of people that boast of having such relaxed expectations, usually because they have been the result of prejudice themselves, I find the gaming community has such huge hang-up's on small relatively insignificant points of etiquette. To the point where people refuse to play each other on the points of 'politeness'. Perhaps establishing what is expected and asking whether you are going to be playing 'incognito' lists would be a better way of avoiding problems rather than just assuming someone would want to tell you their list because you reveal yours.

Personally, I would never refuse a game unless someone is a complete jackass or has a history of cheating. Even then I'd probably just watch them like a hawk. If someone wants to withhold the identity of their army because they want to tailor it, simply use it as a personal excuse to pound them harder!

ehlijen
25-02-2012, 14:03
But what if a person doesn't want list tailoring on either side? That's not poor etiquette, that's just a preference as to how to play the game. Pressuring that person into a different way of playing by telling him information he didn't ask for would be poor etiquette in my opinion.

sturguard
25-02-2012, 14:09
I think list tailoring is an active response, it isnt a subconscious thing. If you don't list tailor and your don't care, knowing what your opponent is bring shouldnt be an issue. I play a weekly game with a guy around here and he brings almost the same list every single time. Without asking him, I could easily build a list specifically designed to give him fits, however, I am more focued on what I want to play with and try out. I bring a different list almost every time but nothing is maximized to defeat his army, I consider each of them an "all comers" list. I agree the fellow might have responded a bit harshly and could have used a bit more tact, but hey it shouldnt matter to you what he brings one way or the other. I am like you, I will always tell my opponent what army I am bringing, I figure if they build a list to try and beat me, they are already declaring me the better general.

RandomThoughts
25-02-2012, 18:11
Question at the OP:

I'm really curious now, and I know it will kill me never finding out the whole story. So, would you be willing to ask the other player, when you see him next time, in a nice way why he refused to tell you his army. If he was afraid of list tailoring, or if he wanted to surprise someone with a new army he had just gotten, or what his reason was.

I know it'll probably be hard, if the mood became awkward between the two of you, but still, I'd really like to know now. *puppyeyes*

Spider-pope
25-02-2012, 18:51
I don't think it's a breach of etiquette at all really. I'm just surprised he'd answer with a blunt "no" without further explanation. When i get asked what army i'll be bringing to a pick up game, i don't normally tell my opponent. This isnt to avoid list tailoring, but because i'm so indecisive i don't know what i'll end up choosing to use. And i explain such to my opponent.

TheKillerCoyote
25-02-2012, 18:53
Personally, I feel that if you should ask the other person first. If they don't want to tell you, then you have no reason to tell them. If you just flat out tell him what you're bringing and he never wanted to exchange that information, that creates an awkward situation.

Personally, given how things worked out, I'd bring some army other than Grey Knights. That way, he can't be accused of list-tailoring. If he isn't trying to list-tailor and just wants to have a fun game, then it won't matter what you're fielding.

Either way, don't volunteer what army you're fielding. Always make sure your opponent wants to first.

Chem-Dog
25-02-2012, 19:27
when I play casual games, we agree on 3 things:
-where the game is.
-when the game is.
-the point value of the game.

For me this is generally the case. Most people I play against have at least two armies so, because I'm a little bit lazy in this regard, I tend to run a fairly all comer list.

But then there are times when it's a bit more involved, when somebody's new uber-kill army needs bringing down a peg or two or somebody dares to dis the power of the lasgun (or I want to try out someting new myself)....then it's pistols at dawn, hand-crafted nemesis army time.

I'm neither one side or the other on this question though. I wouldn't ever deliberately conceal my army choice from a potential opponent (or bait 'n' switch) but I wouldn't sweat it if they didn't want me to know ahead of time.
However, if you've told someone what force you'll be taking and he doesn't reciprocate, it sounds a bit...off.

Alaric Stormblade
25-02-2012, 21:22
I usually don't answer the question either. Because if you don't tailor your list it won't change anything. List tailoring however, at least within my gaming group is considered bad sportsmanship. In other words: if you're a good and fair player you don't need to know in advance. Actually games get a lot more interesting if you don't know what's coming.

Side note: If I suspect list tailoring I sometimes say I'll bring my Eldar and then show up with Marines or similar. If my opponent didn't tailor his list he should have no problems...

Hicks
25-02-2012, 22:17
He could have just told you he didn't know yet. Stops you from potentially tailoring your list and he would not sound impolite.

Pooky
25-02-2012, 22:31
something annoying came up today. I was challenged by someone from our playing group (who doesn't really play alot, at least not when I see it).
After agreeing on 1500pts, I asked him wich army he would be taking, telling him I'd take my Grey Knights.

He bluntly refused to tell me wich army he'll be using. Not even that he's still in doubt, but just a blunt NO!.


I seem to think it's polite and etiquette to tell wich army you'll be playing.

What's the common tought of this?

My proper gaming etiquette has a usual series of standard questions and answers:

1) Ask for a game
2) Agree for points limit
3) Ask to see their army list (To make sure they have a legal list and know what you're up against)
4) Ask to see their army (To make sure everything is WYSIWYG)

These rules may be a little strict, but I almost lost my cool when someone was really rude to me once during a game and I did not establish the 'ground rules' around our game. Basically he wanted a game and I said OK. We agreed on points but I didn't ask to see an army or army list. During deployment he put down a Dreadnaught with no arms and he flat refused to tell me what it was armed with. I asked him what the deal was and his reply was "I don't have to tell you, so I'm not. Deal with it." I was so close from packing up and just leaving.

Hicks
25-02-2012, 22:33
I asked him what the deal was and his reply was "I don't have to tell you, so I'm not. Deal with it." I was so close from packing up and just leaving.

That's flat out cheating. At this rate, you could just field a bunch of bases and not tell him what they represent...

Chem-Dog
25-02-2012, 23:42
I usually don't answer the question either. Because if you don't tailor your list it won't change anything. List tailoring however, at least within my gaming group is considered bad sportsmanship. In other words: if you're a good and fair player you don't need to know in advance. Actually games get a lot more interesting if you don't know what's coming.


To offer a counterpoint, some of the most fun games I've played are when both players know exactly what army the other guy's bringing. All the counter strategies and counter-counter strategies can make it interesting from the off, rather than just going through the motions of using the same armies against the same armies over and over again.
I've fought uphill struggles when I've failed to re-tweak a list for a remach+ game (a rematch but more points) and had glorious victories largely attributed to a little bit of foresight into what my opponent might be fielding next time we meet.

To clarify, my club meets once a week and a majority of games are arranged a week ahead of time (or during the week on the club's Facebook page). With the size of 40K armies these days it's much more convenient to have a specific list and bring only what's needed than it is to bring everything and cobble together a list on the spot.
It can lead to some interesting battles when somebody's arranged a game and then can't make it at the last moment, you turn up and have to fight your Marinekiller2000 army against a Horde of Orks or your Anti-TyranidRAIDcan army ends up face to face against a Grey Knight army....

Battleworthy Arts
26-02-2012, 03:57
What's wrong with list tailoring, as long as both opponents get the chance to do it?

ehlijen
26-02-2012, 05:30
What's wrong with list tailoring, as long as both opponents get the chance to do it?

They not only need to get the chance, they also need to want the chance. If one doesn't want there to be tailoring, then the game will be worse for him if there is.

Battleworthy Arts
26-02-2012, 05:35
They not only need to get the chance, they also need to want the chance. If one doesn't want there to be tailoring, then the game will be worse for him if there is.

Seems like a bizarre paranoia to me. Then again, most of my games are scheduled in advance, not a spin-the-bottle random opponent situation.

madprophet
26-02-2012, 05:35
If you are playing a pick-up game, your list should be all-comers. If you know what your opponent plays then you'd know what army (s)he's likely to play. I have 2000 point Ork, Tau, Chaos Marine and Tyranid armies but my main army is Imperial Guard - my other armies exist mainly as "op forces" for my guards, though my Chaos army might grow into a serious collection.

If someone challenges me, it's a pretty safe bet I will bring an Imperial Guard infantry company. I don't see how it's a big secret if my opponent knows my army - if I know his, then the playing field is even.

ehlijen
26-02-2012, 05:42
Seems like a bizarre paranoia to me. Then again, most of my games are scheduled in advance, not a spin-the-bottle random opponent situation.

Why is that paranoia? Some people like list tailoring, some don't. If you want the option to be there, offer to share army info before list writing (but if the opponent says no thanks, leave it at that). If you don't want the possibility of tailoring, don't share that info till after list writing (which can still be well before any actual ingame decisions are made).

It's simply consideration for people who may or may not share your preferences, not paranoia.

Battleworthy Arts
26-02-2012, 06:55
Why is that paranoia? Some people like list tailoring, some don't. If you want the option to be there, offer to share army info before list writing (but if the opponent says no thanks, leave it at that). If you don't want the possibility of tailoring, don't share that info till after list writing (which can still be well before any actual ingame decisions are made).

It's simply consideration for people who may or may not share your preferences, not paranoia.

So the opponent's refusal to even say which codex he was going to use is a consideration for other people's preferences?

xerxeshavelock
26-02-2012, 08:22
There is more of an element of how much money you have spent when list tailoring. Some people will have only collectted the models for the basic army, whereas others have all the options and can field exactly the right force to wreck their opponent. I am not against list tailering per se, but it should be used with discression. It potentially introduces an inbalance that has nothing to do with the rules.

Azulthar
26-02-2012, 09:00
I love list tailoring, it's an important part of the hobby for me. Kinda surprised some people here frown on it, seems like the 'normal' way to play...it's certainly the way GW/White Dwarf do it.

So yeah, knowing each other's armies is part of that.

Wishing
26-02-2012, 09:02
Someone mentioned army lists. This, I believe, you do not have to reveal to your opponent. In 40K, more than in Fantasy, models have to be WYSIWYG. If not, you have to tell your opponent. If people ask me what each models has, if not clear, I would say "You'll know it when I use it." Maybe a bit harsh, but to me it's like he's asking all my stats before deciding what to shoot/assault.

And from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with that. As I see it, the game rules assume that all players know what stats everything has at all times, because this information is freely available for anyone to check. If your opponent asks you what kind of stats a unit has, and you say that you won't tell him, would you prefer that he simply looks at you blankly and then goes and checks it himself in the codex sitting on the shelf? Memorising game stats is not necessary for the game since most players actively refer to the books while they are playing, so pretending that stats should be somehow secret is very odd to me.

Coasty
26-02-2012, 09:48
...it's certainly the way GW/White Dwarf do it.

I wouldn't say that counts in its favour... :shifty:

Archibald_TK
26-02-2012, 09:54
What's wrong with list tailoring, as long as both opponents get the chance to do it?
Ok let's take an example. Take a Tau player and a BA player. Tell both of them the opponent army beforehand and ask them to list tailor.
- The BA player already know what the Tau will bring 90% of the time as Tau has no real choice in his old codex, thus his army will be overoptimized and 100% unfun to face for the Tau, there won't be a single point wasted. But if the Tau tries some unexpected lists like full mech it means he will play a poor list that will be manageable by even an unoptimized BA list, so tailoring is always safe from the BA side.
- The Tau now can't know if the BA player will go DoA, fast AV13 spam, Dreadspam. Even if he list tailor to the best of his ability (which usually only means changing the weapons on his Crisis =/), he either ends up doing some sort of all comer, or he optimized vs one of the specialized BA list crossing fingers and hoping that it will be the one he'll face.

You made the Tau player think he was treated on equal grounds with the BA one by allowing both to list tailor, but in reality you made a fool out of him as you knew it would only benefits the BA player. You cheated but you didn't cheat. You played by the rules, the rules were just biased toward one of the players. List tailoring always advantage the Codex with the biggest amount of builds and options available, or to put it simply, the older the Codex, the more disadvantaged it will be.

Always doing all comers tend to make the game more fun for everybody. From my PoV, going all out on the list tailoring turns 40K into a pointless unbalanced mess.

Pooky
26-02-2012, 10:11
That's flat out cheating. At this rate, you could just field a bunch of bases and not tell him what they represent...

True. Perhaps I am too trusting/ optimistic, but if I extend a grace to someone I would like it returned. It makes me a little sad when people do not :(

Tarax
26-02-2012, 10:30
And from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with that. As I see it, the game rules assume that all players know what stats everything has at all times, because this information is freely available for anyone to check. If your opponent asks you what kind of stats a unit has, and you say that you won't tell him, would you prefer that he simply looks at you blankly and then goes and checks it himself in the codex sitting on the shelf? Memorising game stats is not necessary for the game since most players actively refer to the books while they are playing, so pretending that stats should be somehow secret is very odd to me.

Only when my opponent is new to the game and is going to make a terrible mistake, I will tell him what my stats are, just to teach him which weapons are good against which targets. Eg his autocannons could better should at my Land Speeders than my Land Raider.
I sincerely hope that my opponent will not take any time to find the right Codex to look up my stats. Most of the time there is limited time and I like to keep the game going.

Back on topic: I think you don't have to reveal which army you're going to play. If you want to know which army your opponent will bring, you can ask him. Expect the same question in return and be prepared to answer it truthfully. Don't give away your answer before asking.
In case both players have given their army of choice and, when they come together to play, one of them has not brought the army he said he would, the other can walk away without any blame.

xxRavenxx
26-02-2012, 10:44
List tailoring always advantage the Codex with the biggest amount of builds and options available, or to put it simply, the older the Codex, the more disadvantaged it will be.

compound this by adding the idea that the tau player only owns 1500 points and cannot tailor at all, while the BA player owns 3000 points and has multiple special weapon options available. Veteran players (ie ones who've been around long enough to have amassed the options) will really butcher new players at bringing silver bullets.

That said, this is all based on (lack of) decorum. I know what I'll be facing when my younger customers ask for a game, and I usually tailor my list the other way. Knowing that they havn't got a single antitank gun in their army, I normally drop all but one tank, make sure there isn't a landraider, and try to play them on their terms. I usually then point out how well my tank did in the game, and suggest they add some solutions for next time.

ehlijen
26-02-2012, 10:46
So the opponent's refusal to even say which codex he was going to use is a consideration for other people's preferences?

No, consideration is asking if a player wants to know what army you're using before you tell him and use that as a basis to expect him to reciprocate.

If I'm told what army I'll be facing even though I didn't want to know, I still won't answer in kind till after my list is done (and I take extra precautions not to tailor). That's not paranioa, that's sticking to my intentions.

Axel
26-02-2012, 12:45
Seriously if you had told me you play Grey Knights I would have politely declined to play you at all. I am just fed up with Grey Knigths.

Apart from that I always ask my opponent which of my armies he wants to play, and if he goes for my favourite Orks he can even choose the buildup (to some degree), like trukkers, horde, elite... its about fun (which brings me back to why I do no longer play vs. GKs).

TrangleC
26-02-2012, 13:05
I hate list tailoring. I want to play under tournament conditions, even in friendly games, not knowing what I'll face.

The guy who introduced me to the game was one of those Space Marine players who played all the available Space Marine Chapters with the same army. One day those models were supposed to be Ultras, one day they where Black Templars aso. Everytime I went to his house to play I came with a finished army list and he waited to see what I am playing and then shuffled his "deck" of Marine codices, decided which one would be best to play against my army and then wrote his army list. That pissed me off to no end but I took it because he otherwise was a OK guy and a good friend and I didn't have a lot of people to play against back then.

But it isn't just because of being pissed off at that, it is also because I want to know whether my armies really work and would work at a tournament. I want to develop my strategical and tactical skills as a player and you can't really do that well with a tailored list.
I see 40k as a alternative to chess, not an alternative to rock-paper-scissors.

That is why I don't see anything wrong with somebody refusing to tell somebody what he will play. In his case I would have refused to know what my opponent will play too though.

Grimtuff
26-02-2012, 13:24
They not only need to get the chance, they also need to want the chance. If one doesn't want there to be tailoring, then the game will be worse for him if there is.

Indeed. This irked me somewhat a few weeks ago (combined with the "War council" element of a certain backseat gamer too, but that's a whole 'nother topic...) when playing Warmachine. I'd brought my Retribution force down, list made prior to coming down the club, etc. etc.
I ask for a game of WM against my opponent. He asked me what I'm using, so I'm wary from the start. I came out with a hasty "I've not decided yet". I pull out my army eventually the he and his BSG buddy make a list right there in front of me. :mad:

I was not happy and it soured me from this hobby (as I thought us WM lot, being a small group, thus having to stick together were not going to do this) for a few weeks. I'm now refusing to play the guy.

ted1138
26-02-2012, 13:25
He doesn't have to tell you what he's bringing to the battle, but since he knows what you'll be using, it would be polite of him to tell you. If I was you, I'd play him, but I'd play to "win-at-all-costs"...

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-02-2012, 14:26
I sincerely hope that my opponent will not take any time to find the right Codex to look up my stats. Most of the time there is limited time and I like to keep the game going.

Then wouldn't it be easier to tell him rather then try and hide information that should be commonly available?

Personally, if my opponent refuse to tell me little things like that (What are their WS again? etc.) I can't help but get suspicious. Either they are cheating or planning to if they think they can get away with it.

Cheeslord
26-02-2012, 14:56
Well, given the reputation of Grey knights, its only fair to warn your opponent if you plan to play them so they have the option of not playing. While it would have been interesting to know what the other guy would have brought, it probably wasn't Grey Knights or Dark Eldar.

(edit) sorry, I misunderstood the thread ... the guy didn't refuse to plan then, just to tell you his army... since you told him yours, thats giving himself an unfair advantage. Even if he was taking Daemons, Nids or any other army that you would stomp without even noticing you can't just unilaterally make up rules to try and fix game balance

Mark.

ehlijen
26-02-2012, 15:09
He doesn't have to tell you what he's bringing to the battle, but since he knows what you'll be using, it would be polite of him to tell you. If I was you, I'd play him, but I'd play to "win-at-all-costs"...

But if he didn't ask to be told, why should politeness require him to divulge information he didn't intend to share at that time? He has every right not to be coerced into revealing things he'd rather not.

If he asked and refused to share to the same degree in return after recieving an answer, sure that's trouble. But if you provide the info without prompting, he is under no obligation to return the favour.

Battleworthy Arts
26-02-2012, 17:37
Wow... this IS serious business.

Ive been to plenty of all-comers days, and never encountered anyone so tricksy and mysterious as to not divulge which codex he's using... but don't we show up to such arrangements with a pre-written list?

Worst case scenario, is you use an all-comers list against a tailored one, right? Ive done that a few times, and came out the other side no worse for wear... clearly we need to make beer a more important gaming aide.

Are people out there really that disagreeable? To the fella who treats every game as tournament practice... do you tell your opponents that? If i play someone like that, and I still need to write a list, I write one that I would take to a tourney (not optimized against his specific force), so he can have his practice.

Is there any graciousness left in this gentleman's game?

xxRavenxx
26-02-2012, 18:35
Ive been to plenty of all-comers days, and never encountered anyone so tricksy and mysterious as to not divulge which codex he's using...

Flip that on its head though:


I've never encountered anyone so tricksy and mysterious as to insist on knowing what codex I'm using before he writes his list.


This is one of those Potato/Tomato arguments. Check up front which your opponent wants to do. If he wants the option you don't, then agree on which best suits the pair of you, and do that one. Nuff said.

kaimarion
26-02-2012, 18:38
Only when my opponent is new to the game and is going to make a terrible mistake, I will tell him what my stats are, just to teach him which weapons are good against which targets. Eg his autocannons could better should at my Land Speeders than my Land Raider.
I sincerely hope that my opponent will not take any time to find the right Codex to look up my stats. Most of the time there is limited time and I like to keep the game going.

If I were your opponent I would be concerned you were cheating. Not allowing your opponent know the stats of your units just seems very WAAC-ish and it's an unfair thing to do to new players.



@OP
Sometimes I like to keep my army unknown before the game as it does stop people from list tailoring but we tend not to see that around here so it's not much of a worry. When it comes to the actual game I prefer all information to be open and I make point of showing my opponent my army list so he is fully aware of what he is facing.
When it comes to a pick up game my first question is "do you have an army list written". I make sure to do this before unpacking my army. As it stops situations like what Grimtuff described and prevents any awkward refusals to play.


Talk to the guy and figure out what terms he want to play on, if he doesn't wish to know what the armies are going to be before the game then so be it. Tell him of your concern.

AngryAngel
26-02-2012, 19:54
I don't know what the issue is, I wouldn't really ask, or expect to be asked what i'm playing before the game starts. I wouldn't want to list tailor, or be list tailored on so, ya know. If the list are already done, I have no problem saying what i'm army I'm using. Though, people know exactly what army I'm playing most times without asking, as in our group we all know what armies each other has so its never really a big issue. Sometimes we challenge each other army to army.

Though that said most of us have multiple ways to run any of our armies. Like with guard depending on what I take I mix up mech guard, infantry guard and hybrid builds.

Edit: As for weapons stats, unit set ups. Once the game is on I fully give my opponents any information asked or needed. Such as WS, BS attacks wargear etc. I don't cheat, wouldn't want to be cheated and don't hide information of army lists or what units have for rules.

Though, I still don't like saying what amy I'm playing before we play, and won't ask either. Personal choice.

Alamais
26-02-2012, 23:08
To me its a case of 'don't ask if your not going to say', I assume people are generally good/nice.
If you ask me what I'm playing I'll answer but I will expect you to answer as well. I shouldn't have to ask, if I answer your question are you going to answer it back if I ask you. Thats just crazy and to me reeks of being deceitful.

Tarax
27-02-2012, 10:12
If I were your opponent I would be concerned you were cheating. Not allowing your opponent know the stats of your units just seems very WAAC-ish and it's an unfair thing to do to new players.

See the text in bold below.


Only when my opponent is new to the game and is going to make a terrible mistake, I will tell him what my stats are, just to teach him which weapons are good against which targets. Eg his autocannons could better should at my Land Speeders than my Land Raider.


Then wouldn't it be easier to tell him rather then try and hide information that should be commonly available?

Personally, if my opponent refuse to tell me little things like that (What are their WS again? etc.) I can't help but get suspicious. Either they are cheating or planning to if they think they can get away with it.

Well, it's part of my gaming philosophy. I would gladly assault with my Eldar Guardians against a Tervigon, not knowing how good he is. In 'real' life people rush into things not knowing what to expect. There are 2 more reasons, first is to find the stats the hard way; second is to have (in the case of an assault) the advantage at that moment.

Also note that people trust me and don't expect me to cheat, which I don't. :angel: :shifty: ;)

Adra
27-02-2012, 11:38
This must just be an "other gaming group" thing. Im my local store and gaming club we dont waste time on list tailoring. Its a simple we want a game, number of points, start rolling for mission and whatever. If someone really wanted to list tailor against me then thats just alot of waiting around and not playing. I bring one or two armies with set point values for different levels of play and thats it.

As an matter of courtesy i expect my player to have an army list written up for me to see, and i provide one to. If not then i expect a quick run-down of whats on the table after its been deployed. I never refuse to tell my opponent what i have in a unit or what stats i have if he asks. If he says "whats that Plague Marine squad got in it?" ill tell him, and if he asks "what does a blight grenade do?" ill tell him that to. Thats one of the reasosn you bring a codex, so your opponent can have a look if he has a question. The reason you have an army list is to demonstrait that you have what you say you have in the points provided. Its all friendly and its all open and i dont seem to have any arguments about it.

If someone refused to tell me a stat on a gun i would pack up. How petty is that? If its two people who are like minded then thats fine but to spring that attitude on someone in a friendly pick up game is a bad move and is just going to get on peoples nerves. Not sure why anyone would want that much hassle.

IcedCrow
27-02-2012, 13:43
I'm of the same mindset. If I'm playing someone and I ask what the stats of the unit are and they don't tell me, we are done playing. I don't feel I should be expected to know every codex out there. I used to back when I was a tourney player, but for now I am content with knowing how my army works and my opponent tells me his stats and how his army works.

If I am asked what the stats of my items and units are, I would gladly reveal that information or even hand my army codex over.

If I am at a store and played someone who refused to tell me the stats of his units, other than not ever playing that person again because I find that to be innane, I would hold up the game to go find the codex and flip through it and then know the statline of his units anyway.

That's just me. I have encountered this twice in my life. Both times were at a tournament, and both times the player was overridden by the judge. Our campaign group / friendlies have never had that happen. I would find that expecting people to be ok with that would be a rarity though if a group of people enjoys that kind of thing, to each their own.

Captain Collius
27-02-2012, 14:12
i personally use a pre-written list that i have multiple copies of. I don't want to cheat and find that a list that has been checked and written on computer avoids mistakes.

as to him not wanting to speak about his army choice thats just :rolleyes:. let people know what army your going to run it doesn't tell them your list

Fithos
27-02-2012, 19:42
I wish GW would omit the secrecy thing from their next rulebook. I have always interpreted it as "I don't have to volunteer information to my opponents but if they ask I have to answer their questions." Otherwise it is either to easy for someone to cheat. "No, that's the transport they were actually in" or it is a waste of time "You won't tell me what this model does? Ok, excuse me for a bit while I go look it up."

Usually when I play or see others play they start the game by going through each of their models and saying what they are and then answering questions about them. That has always seemed like the courteous thing to do in a friendly game.

If your winning depends on your opponent not knowing what something is then your strategy really isn't that good.

RandomThoughts
28-02-2012, 09:08
I wish GW would omit the secrecy thing from their next rulebook. I have always interpreted it as "I don't have to volunteer information to my opponents but if they ask I have to answer their questions." Otherwise it is either to easy for someone to cheat. "No, that's the transport they were actually in" or it is a waste of time "You won't tell me what this model does? Ok, excuse me for a bit while I go look it up."

Usually when I play or see others play they start the game by going through each of their models and saying what they are and then answering questions about them. That has always seemed like the courteous thing to do in a friendly game.

If your winning depends on your opponent not knowing what something is then your strategy really isn't that good.

Our group used to play with secret reserves and models inside tanks secret until they emerge, more for story / drama reasons than for strategy reasons.

I like the way Warmachine plays out in that regard, though. Every unit comes with a little card with all stats and special rules and weapons and spells on it, before deployment players exchange cards for careful reading, and you can request to see any card at any time during the game.

Tarax
28-02-2012, 10:16
Usually when I play or see others play they start the game by going through each of their models and saying what they are and then answering questions about them. That has always seemed like the courteous thing to do in a friendly game.

That's what I do to, upto a level. It just tells your opponent about what the unit has if it's not obvious, ie not WYSIWYG.


Our group used to play with secret reserves and models inside tanks secret until they emerge, more for story / drama reasons than for strategy reasons.

That's also a very good reason.

Back in the day you had card (Magic Item/Wargear) which you didn't have to reveal untill used. I think that's where it all started for me.
Nowadays I make my list at home, maybe print that list or write it down for reference. Usually I don't need to look at it during a game. Nobody has ever asked me to show my list. I certainly never ask, unless I expect a (non-intended) mistake.

ted1138
28-02-2012, 10:49
But if he didn't ask to be told, why should politeness require him to divulge information he didn't intend to share at that time? He has every right not to be coerced into revealing things he'd rather not.

If he asked and refused to share to the same degree in return after recieving an answer, sure that's trouble. But if you provide the info without prompting, he is under no obligation to return the favour.


I didn't say anything about coercion, all I said was it's good manners for him to not take advantage of another players good nature/mistake.

Cheeslord
28-02-2012, 11:12
I like the way Warmachine plays out in that regard, though. Every unit comes with a little card with all stats and special rules and weapons and spells on it, before deployment players exchange cards for careful reading, and you can request to see any card at any time during the game.

The real beauty of this (also I play Heroscape which has the same idea) it that it limits special rules to something you can fit on the card, which allows lots of interesting stuff without becoming too complicated.

Mark.

Freakiq
28-02-2012, 11:28
My group usually shows up with pre-written lists for 1000, 1500 and 2000 points.

By using 'take all comers'-lists we level the playing field so that even a beginner with little means of tailoring has a chance.
Warhammer shouldn't be about who has the largest army.

Chapters Unwritten
28-02-2012, 18:20
Isn't there something in the rulebook about making it clear what you took, at least insofar as transport contents? I would assume the same idea would apply.

Reaver83
28-02-2012, 19:34
Wherever I've played it's always been that your opponent gives you his list you both answer questions and then the game starts.

Frankly there's nothing more pathetic than watching some bearded old bloke pull some special rule out on a relatively new player causing him to loose a whole game because he'd never played super secret unit 'X' led by character 'Y'

By the same token it also means people get to check when little Tom accidentally misreads his new codex and all of a sudden has a unit with a 2++ rerollable save

Polaria
28-02-2012, 19:59
With strangers, or people you don't know that well, I would say that you should just agree on "where, when and how many points". If you tell what army you are using the opponent might actually tailor the list for you. If he tells what army he is using you might be tempted to tailor the list for him.

When I play with my friends we usually either agree to "test armies for next tournament", which means we both take our all-comers lists, or we both tell what codex we'll both be playing and tailoring is allowed... of course tailoring based on codex isn't that powerfull, since I really have no way of telling if the Codex: Blood Angels means DoA jump-infantry army, 2+ save spamming Dante + Mephiston list, Mechanized list or Air-Mechanized list this time around.

Polaria
28-02-2012, 20:01
Isn't there something in the rulebook about making it clear what you took, at least insofar as transport contents? I would assume the same idea would apply.

Its in the rules. Both players can read each others lists and you are obliged to make sure both players know which unit is in which transport. Basic Rule Book, page 92.

Adra
28-02-2012, 20:33
Frankly there's nothing more pathetic than watching some bearded old bloke pull some special rule out on a relatively new player causing him to loose a whole game because he'd never played super secret unit 'X' led by character 'Y'

Hahaha that guy does get about dont he ;)

I dunno i still dont see any real life example of when someone can list tailor against me. In pick up games it all happens a bit quick to do any serious damage. Ah maybe im just naive and my groups are full of nice people. I always take a set army and play whoever with it (the most current one being Chaos) and havent lost a game in 40+ games. I've always assumed you have to be open and honest about everything (except your tactics obviously) and that seems to serve me petty well.

AngryAngel
28-02-2012, 20:38
I already posted in this, but just wonderd, am I only one who actually doesn't care to/want to see army lists before deployment ? I think it adds another level to everything to just be working a little in the dark. Makes choice of first or second turn a bit trickier as well. I usually run it, I don't ask, or care what the opponent has till it's deployed, left in reserve, then I ask the questions of units, wargear the like. Adds another level of deciding if I want to give them first and see what they have up their sleeve before I tip my hand with my own units and choices of deployment.

I probably just get into the story of it too much though but it tends to make my games feel quite cinematic.

Madfool2
28-02-2012, 21:25
I like to know what army people are using, but that's about it, I won't ask to see the opponents list unless they ask to see mine.

trigger
03-03-2012, 12:08
I've had a guy refuse to tell me what list he was useing untill the day. We played the game and I asked him why?
His answer was " I only have a 2000pt army , you have a lot more.
My list is my list you could pick a destroyer list"


Which I thought was a fair comment , the fella only had 1 army of 2k yet I had at the time 3 at over 4k a piece.


Another question at the OP , how are you/your GK perceived in your group ?? Are you a winner? are your GK unstoppable ?
Have you regualry tabled people ? Have you tabled this guy before ?

Oppressor
04-03-2012, 00:59
I don't think the other guy did anything wrong. Who cares if he didn't tell you what army he was going to play, that should make it more interesting.

Adra
05-03-2012, 09:50
Maybe there is a disconnect here. If someone wants to keep their list a secret before a game then thats fine. I may ask what codex they would be taking but if they dont want to say then thats fine. However, once the game starts and deployment is about to begin, then iwould expect to have any questions about a force answered.

ErictheGreen
05-03-2012, 11:05
This has kinda struck a tone with me.

I like to build my armies and lists that push their efficiency and my tactical skills to the limit against all my opponents. I make take all comers lists because I go to tournaments and if you don't have the tools in your army to deal with a wide variety of threats, you come up against the rock to your scissors and it screws up your day.

Take all comers still suffers when someone brings out the infantry horde guard or the infantry horde orcs - my anti tank is pretty much useless, but I wouldn't take it out because my next game might be against mech guard, or mech space wolves, where my anti tank is sorely needed.

Take the whirlwind, for example. If I know i'm playing horde orks, the whirlwind could go into my list and perform admirably. Is it useful in a take all comers list? no, it's pants compared to heavy support choices that help me deal with tanks. I can get massed anti infantry in the rest of my list.

However, in my local GW, there seems to be a theme amongst the regulars (new and veteran alike) that list tailoring is ok. I bring my deathwing most of the time, and I've only ever played one opponent who had a pre written list. so inevitably, I'll watch someone play a game against orks with their whirlwinds and thunderfires etc, then on the same night i'll offer him a game, tell him i'm using deathwing and i'm sitting across the table from massed plasma cannons and plasma guns. It happens every time I go there. I went down with my (new and untested) grey knights, only to play an eldar player who actually asked me, while writing his list "do you have to take a test for your psychic powers?", before including runes of warding in his list. Now most eldar players include it as a matter of course with all the psychic stuff floating around now, but i've seen the same guy play against deathwing and not have the runes in his army "because deathwing don't have any psykers".

I just don't get it. Is winning that important? i'll happily take a beating and ask my opponent what he think I did wrong because it makes me a better player. list tailoring goes entirely against that and stunts your development as a player because you never learn how to deal with scenarios that are "out of the box" - you always have the tools to hand due to the tailoring, rather than experience and tactics.

orkmiester
05-03-2012, 11:58
However, in my local GW, there seems to be a theme amongst the regulars (new and veteran alike) that list tailoring is ok. I bring my deathwing most of the time, and I've only ever played one opponent who had a pre written list. so inevitably, I'll watch someone play a game against orks with their whirlwinds and thunderfires etc, then on the same night i'll offer him a game, tell him i'm using deathwing and i'm sitting across the table from massed plasma cannons and plasma guns. It happens every time I go there. I went down with my (new and untested) grey knights, only to play an eldar player who actually asked me, while writing his list "do you have to take a test for your psychic powers?", before including runes of warding in his list. Now most eldar players include it as a matter of course with all the psychic stuff floating around now, but i've seen the same guy play against deathwing and not have the runes in his army "because deathwing don't have any psykers".

I just don't get it. Is winning that important? i'll happily take a beating and ask my opponent what he think I did wrong because it makes me a better player. list tailoring goes entirely against that and stunts your development as a player because you never learn how to deal with scenarios that are "out of the box" - you always have the tools to hand due to the tailoring, rather than experience and tactics.

those players- no offense intended, sound like complete idiots...

you are totally correct in what you say at the end where you want feedback etc that is always good, as there is always room to imporove.

however in that situation i couldn't resist playing them at their own game, i would take two armies (or more) say one then after he has written the tailored list get my other army out:evilgrin: if he wants to be such an idiot then two can play at that game:shifty: If you are not going to meet on equal terms then clandestine means are totally allowed:p

At my club some of the lists i regularly play against have stayed constant for a bit, and of course we know each others play-styles so games become a match of skill and a tot of luck ;) Though last week i did warn that i would be proxying some units for my SW tourney list. My opponent was fine with it, he got a nasty shock when the landspeder typhoons got a few cheeky shots in:D

and that is my point really, we mosty say 'want a game' (usually 1750) and usually 'what army are you using' no mention of list or whatever as we all know ours are legal, barring cheesy choices of course. Doing it like that results in good games all round, the only time things get serious i find is at tournaments where some players show you their list (and its polite to do the same...)and others don't.

list tailoring is stupid as after all this is a 'wargame' hence you pick forces you feel will be able to deal with a wide variety of threats and opponents, at least thats my view anyway. And anyone who tailors all the time is a bad genral indeed.

just my thoughts...:angel:

ErictheGreen
05-03-2012, 13:17
those players- no offense intended, sound like complete idiots...
...
however in that situation i couldn't resist playing them at their own game, i would take two armies (or more) say one then after he has written the tailored list get my other army out:evilgrin: if he wants to be such an idiot then two can play at that game:shifty: If you are not going to meet on equal terms then clandestine means are totally allowed:p

meh. i've never done it because it makes me a worse player, imo. Knowing I can battle through "tailored lists" (which i've got to be honest, are nowhere near the strength I find on the tournament circuit anyway) is fine. but it's every god damn time.


and that is my point really, we mosty say 'want a game' (usually 1750) and usually 'what army are you using' no mention of list or whatever as we all know ours are legal, barring cheesy choices of course. Doing it like that results in good games all round, the only time things get serious i find is at tournaments where some players show you their list (and its polite to do the same...)and others don't.


say what? every tournament I've been to has had in the rules pack that you need a copy of your army list for your opponent. it's simply good practice to avoid rules disputes - you can ask what stuff does before the game if you don't know.

Easy E
05-03-2012, 15:20
I'm amazed how many people think secrecy is important to a cooperative gaming experience.

Grocklock
06-03-2012, 12:05
i find it hard to belive that was the end of the conversation, he said no and that was it? really, the world froze until you got home and posted this statment on the forum, could you of not said something, like ask a question? like why did you not want to say? are you trying out a new list? also i think its quick to think you is a a hole because of it, until you have found out the resson why, which i dont understand how you didn't find out.

x-esiv-4c
06-03-2012, 12:20
Lie. Always lie. Say you are bringing a Spawn heavy chaos army and show up with an all Baneblade army, drunk off Kraken spiced rum wearing only a kilt and a paintball Jersey. He'll be so perplexed that you can flip the table, spread your arms "Bro" style and give him the ultimate "LOL U MAD BRO?".

ehlijen
06-03-2012, 13:37
I'm amazed how many people think secrecy is important to a cooperative gaming experience.

As long as you're only amazed and not dismissive of other people's preference :P

But seriously, what's wrong with wanting to be suprised? And trusting to opponent enough to do so rules legally?

Serpent
06-03-2012, 15:17
When I arrange games, I usually ask what my opponents want to face - Guard, Chaos or Wolves and Hard, Middle or Soft armies. If both of us aim for Middle armies, the game will be interesting, both making the list and playing the game. :)

HereticHammer01
06-03-2012, 17:21
I think if I was confronted by this, I wouldn't play them. I play the game for fun and this sounds like exactly the sort of person fun would be difficult to find with.

Easy E
09-03-2012, 14:48
Nothing is wrong with it.

There are just so many diffrent ways people take enjoyment from the game, it seems like you would want to understand what your opponent wants to get out of the game; and how it aligns with what you want ot get out of the game before you go through the work of setting up a table, deploying, etc.

Then again. I also realize that I am crazy.

Disposable Hero
10-03-2012, 22:38
Luxury!

I always get challenged, like this: Oi! See these fine dwarves here? They are going to stomp on your measly Chaos army.
And see this model? He is the Thane of Pain!

Then he starts singing like Bruce Bloody Springsteen: the dwarves are back in town...

And he also had a Tomb King army, lead by Queen Notfortitty....no song this time, just a lewd wiggling of his eyebrows.




And the damndest thing is he is really a good player too...:(

Happicus
11-03-2012, 14:51
When I agree to a game it is either a pick up game and you play whatever is in your case right then or we agree on a future game including time, location, and armies to play. I will just as often play an "inferior" army just because my opponent and I think that playing eldar vs sisters of battle would be fun.

I personally don't understand the idea of list tailoring. I spend alot of time planning and paining an army so that it looks good on the table. My current army is an ultra marine force with five tactical squads each with a different heavy weapon. My heavy support are two autocannon heavy bolter predators and a good share of the sergeants have power swords. It's not a power list by any means but I have used it to win against most of the top tier armies. I'm not going to screw up my theme just because you are playing red marines instead of blue.

Besides anyone can beat a Gorn with a phaser, it takes a real man to beat one with charcoal, sulfur and a bambo tube.