PDA

View Full Version : Ordo Hereticus - what now?



Eternus
26-02-2012, 14:51
Ok, I have no issue with those who like to play a pure Sisters army, and I like the Sisters of Battle, but I prefer by far to have a 'Witch Hunters' army, with all the weirdness and eccentricity that goes with it. Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, their various followers, the Ministorum, the Assassinorum et al.

So, is there anyone else here that misses being able to field a 'Witch Hunters' army, and has anyone found a way to continue fielding one now that the new list is around? Has anyone carried on using the old Codex? Or maybe started playing 'counts as' with a Guard list and using Commissars to represent Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors? Or maybe come up with their own rules entirely? I am a little suprised that GW haven't simply done a couple of pages in White Dwarf with rules for a Hereticus Inquisitor and his retinue as an add on to another Imperial army, so you could use them as an HQ choice in either an Imperial Guard, Space Marine or Sisters force?

What do you think?

Mr Zoat
26-02-2012, 16:56
I'll be running a tournament in October in which I'll let Sisters players use either Codex, or rather the Codex and the White Dwarf list. If I was a Sisters player I would probably prefer the older list.

Notanoob
26-02-2012, 17:16
I think that plenty of people miss the more powerful and flavorful WH codex, myself among them. That said, if you want to run WH now, you're much better off running a Coteaz henchmen list, and adding a OH Inquisitor.

Chem-Dog
26-02-2012, 18:38
I don't think Inquisitors have ever been amply accommodated in 40K, not since the new paradigm of Inquisitorial Warbands and such was formalised anyway.
Problem is they don't REALLY belong in the game, sure they're a big part of the back-story and a part I happen to enjoy immensely but there are only so many uses for a private-eye/super spy (and his network of specialist operators) in a standard 2000 point battle and with the broad strokes that describe our battles a lot of an Inquisitor's skill set (and those of his followers) melt away into insignificance until you're left with little more than a bunch of IG equivalents with one or two special rules and some fancy wargear.

Sure your Inquisitor is a bit handy with his power sword and capable of tackling most of the human degenerates he'll encounter in the prosecution of his duties but should he be a threat to Chaos Lord, or an Ork Warboss? Not likely.
So we're left with the alternative of turning him into a support character (often in direct competition with harder, more durable and generally more useful characters) which never seems to work particularly well in 40K especially when accompanied by the gazillion or so special rules usually needed.

IF 40K had a legitimate skirmish game setting Inquisitors would definitely be far more interesting (there's the fan-made Inquisimunda (http://inquisimunda.proboards.com/) as well as the simple adaptation of the Inquisitor game itself into 28mm scale to attest to the interest in the idea). Unless an Inquisitors Codex is released to specifically cover the kinds of armies an Inquisitor can use when not able to call on the Chamber Militant (which I believe is more common than not) they're always going to struggle to be useful without being anachronistic to the game or their own place in the setting.

Shamana
26-02-2012, 21:53
Sure your Inquisitor is a bit handy with his power sword and capable of tackling most of the human degenerates he'll encounter in the prosecution of his duties but should he be a threat to Chaos Lord, or an Ork Warboss? Not likely.
So we're left with the alternative of turning him into a support character (often in direct competition with harder, more durable and generally more useful characters) which never seems to work particularly well in 40K especially when accompanied by the gazillion or so special rules usually needed.

I will have to disagree, I think support character seem to be doing fairly well in 40k. Librarians (and many other psykers), haemonculi, big meks, any of the IG HQs - all of these aren't the greatest champions of all, and they needn't be out of the league of a veteran, well-prepared inquisitor. Yet they are in 40k, and probably there to stay. While the fluff may talk about battles of thousands upon thousands, on the board a battle of 300 models in total would probably be considered a big one; at that scale, the involvement of an inquisitor does not seem so far-fetched.

I've heard of counts-as conversions (IG or possibly the new sisters - a confessor may well be an inquisitor), and think it could certainly work, especially if it more or less adheres to the codex mechanically - if you say that that librarian is an inquisitor, but has the same rules and equipment as a librarian in your codex, I think most players would be fine. It's somewhat possible to build an inquisition-based GK army, as well, although it will involve using a SC to get warbands as troops. It is a bit harder than before fluffwise, though, the =][= were scaled back imo mostly because the codex authors decided that the fanbase doesn't really want them in, or they are not as "cool" as the other units in their codices. Personally, for me the idea of high members of the Ecclesiarchy forming specialized kill teams and leading the Sisters of Battle from the front makes much less sense than inquisitors doing the same, but there you go.

Eternus
27-02-2012, 08:44
Fluffwise I think that Inquisitors, particlularly Hereticus Inquisitors really do fit into the game, because the Inquisitors involvement will be two fold. First, the army they're leading may well have been sequestered by the Inquisitor in the first place, and second, who's business is is to hunt down and destroy a Chaos Lord if not an Inquisitor?

They are meant to be the last line in the defence of humanity against the darkest things that threaten it's future, and those that take to the battelfield when necessary are equipped to be there and accomplish their misson, with all the resources at their disposal, which, on paper at least, is the entirety of the Imperiums armed might.

GreyishKnight
27-02-2012, 12:46
My group still uses C:WH but I have no problems with the direction GW has taken over splitting the new codices Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition rather than Hereticus/Malleus. In fact it's a direction I've been long expecting them to take, especially after reading C:GK. It's funny how GW never learned from it's mistakes. Very few players may remember the ruckus C:WH caused when it was originally released itself, with many devoted fans reacting angrily to the Sisters being lumped in with the Inquisition. It looks like GW are finally responding to these callouts but they would have been better of sticking to their formula. Changing it back was always going to cause more controversy with those fans who had devoted much time and money to the Inquisitorial side only to have it invalidated. Furthermore, over time people grew to accept and even like the inclusion of ][ models along side the Sisters. Many of the online Sisters players I know are both GK and Sisters players like myself who loved the similarities of both books.

With the new codex, The only issue I had was that it was a rather rushed, lacklustre affair. If it had been more detailed and well-thought out, it could have been acceptable. The Sisters of Battle deserved better.

Stormtrooper Clark
27-02-2012, 13:17
The Grey Knight codex gets almost every Inquisitor toy from the Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter codex anyway doesn't it? Henchmen can be outfited as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (Hellgun and Carapace upgrades), or as Acolytes, you can take the Assassins, Chimeras, Arco-Flagellants, Crusaders, etc, etc. Heck even the Inquisitorial special characters from the Witch-Hunter codex are in there. It's entirely possible to create an Inquisitorial force from the Hereticus or Mallus using the book albeit lacking in support from Sister units.

I think the only unit it's lacking is the Penitent Engine and I doubt many people would object to you using Dreadknight rules for it.

Scaryscarymushroom
27-02-2012, 16:35
Penitent Engines are ecclesiarchy stuff anyway.

I still use C: WH to plan out my collecting. I've really enjoyed the variety offered to me in terms of modelling opportunities by the inquisition, but I don't have the models to field an Inquisition army using the C: GK, and I prefer Sisters of Battle to Grey Knights anyway.

Chem-Dog
27-02-2012, 17:13
I will have to disagree, I think support character seem to be doing fairly well in 40k. Librarians (and many other psykers), haemonculi, big meks, any of the IG HQs - all of these aren't the greatest champions of all, and they needn't be out of the league of a veteran, well-prepared inquisitor. Yet they are in 40k, and probably there to stay. While the fluff may talk about battles of thousands upon thousands, on the board a battle of 300 models in total would probably be considered a big one; at that scale, the involvement of an inquisitor does not seem so far-fetched.

That support characters exist isn't the issue, it's more of a case of how well they emerge with the rest of the game, for me they tend to stick out like a sore thumb tending to have a host of special rules to enforce their supportyness or lend uber abilities. I like the Inquisition within 40K but the level of abstraction used makes them a lot less interesting than they could be and I for one would much rather have a list that allowed me to use Inquisitors without the SoB's, GK's or (Hypothetically) Deathwatch without having to resort to hokey SC-unlock armies. Codex WH and DH, for all of their faults, allowed this to happen but I would still like to see it go further.


Fluffwise I think that Inquisitors, particlularly Hereticus Inquisitors really do fit into the game, because the Inquisitors involvement will be two fold. First, the army they're leading may well have been sequestered by the Inquisitor in the first place, and second, who's business is is to hunt down and destroy a Chaos Lord if not an Inquisitor?

They are meant to be the last line in the defence of humanity against the darkest things that threaten it's future, and those that take to the battelfield when necessary are equipped to be there and accomplish their misson, with all the resources at their disposal, which, on paper at least, is the entirety of the Imperiums armed might.

Agreed yet they are currently all, apparently, gallivanting around the Galaxy with the Grey Knights.

carlisimo
27-02-2012, 17:45
Very few players may remember the ruckus C:WH caused when it was originally released itself, with many devoted fans reacting angrily to the Sisters being lumped in with the Inquisition.

Yeah, I remember. Iím in that camp, too. I never saw the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition as having that close a relationship.

Eternus
27-02-2012, 18:22
Yeah, I remember. I’m in that camp, too. I never saw the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition as having that close a relationship.

It's not the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition as a whole though, rather the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus, who, along with the Sororitas, all have pretty much the same mandate to burn witches, traitors and heretics. Their areas of jurisdiction overlap, so it makes sense they find themselves working together.

Theocracity
27-02-2012, 18:26
It's not the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition as a whole though, rather the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus, who, along with the Sororitas, all have pretty much the same mandate to burn witches, traitors and heretics. Their areas of jurisdiction overlap, so it makes sense they find themselves working together.

...so why not distinguish them a bit? The Ecchillisiarchy is a much broader concept than just 'hunts witches.' if they were to make an Ecchlisiarchy focused SoB codex, I'm sure there would be a move towards broader goals in order to separate them from the dedicated Witchhunters.

Dryaktylus
27-02-2012, 18:32
The Grey Knight codex gets almost every Inquisitor toy from the Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter codex anyway doesn't it? Henchmen can be outfited as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (Hellgun and Carapace upgrades), or as Acolytes, you can take the Assassins, Chimeras, Arco-Flagellants, Crusaders, etc, etc. Heck even the Inquisitorial special characters from the Witch-Hunter codex are in there. It's entirely possible to create an Inquisitorial force from the Hereticus or Mallus using the book albeit lacking in support from Sister units.


It's not very appealing pointwise, but you can also equip Henchmen to represent Sisters and the Razorback has the option for heavy flamers. Likewise, if you take an Inquisitor (i.e. Coteaz) you can use the second HQ as count-as Canoness (or, well, take an OH Inquisitor and field Canoness Contessa Torquemada or Saint Praxedes (the Sceptre of Vengeance is good enough to represent the hammer, the Cloak of St. Aspire the 2+ save, Irressitable Charge Hammerhand etc.) along with a cherub (Psyber-Eagle)).

Sir_Turalyon
27-02-2012, 19:10
It's not the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition as a whole though, rather the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus, who, along with the Sororitas, all have pretty much the same mandate to burn witches, traitors and heretics. Their areas of jurisdiction overlap, so it makes sense they find themselves working together.

Except the mandate of Hereticus is to make sure the Ecclesiachy (and to lesser extent, other Imperial organisations) does not dominate and subvert other Imperial organistions, as happened in Age of Aposthasy, hunting witches being just their cover story. The mandate of Soritas is enforcing will of Ecclesiachy on other Imperial organistions and fighting it's enemies, whomever they happen to be ; hunting witches is a pasttime. As such Soritas are *the* organisation Hereticus is supposed to be monitoring and be distrustful of. The idea of these two organisations working hand in hand in sinlge army list was always stretched - at best.

Eternus
27-02-2012, 19:21
Except the mandate of Hereticus is to make sure the Ecclesiachy (and to lesser extent, other Imperial organisations) does not dominate and subvert other Imperial organistions, as happened in Age of Aposthasy, hunting witches being just their cover story. The mandate of Soritas is enforcing will of Ecclesiachy on other Imperial organistions and fighting it's enemies, whomever they happen to be ; hunting witches is a pasttime. As such Soritas are *the* organisation Hereticus is supposed to be monitoring and be distrustful of. The idea of these two organisations working hand in hand in sinlge army list was always stretched - at best.

Yes, but you could say the same about the Commissariat and the Guard.

Shamana
27-02-2012, 20:04
Except the mandate of Hereticus is to make sure the Ecclesiachy (and to lesser extent, other Imperial organisations) does not dominate and subvert other Imperial organistions, as happened in Age of Aposthasy, hunting witches being just their cover story. The mandate of Soritas is enforcing will of Ecclesiachy on other Imperial organistions and fighting it's enemies, whomever they happen to be ; hunting witches is a pasttime. As such Soritas are *the* organisation Hereticus is supposed to be monitoring and be distrustful of. The idea of these two organisations working hand in hand in sinlge army list was always stretched - at best.

Actually, the mission of the Sororitas is as much to serve the Ecclesiarchy as to oversee it. They used to serve Vandire blindly, and it took nothing less than a visit to the Emperor's sanctum to change that. After that, they shouldn't be given essentially the same position, nor should (if I may try to use logic in 40k lore) they accept it. Their affiliation to the Ordo Hereticus is not nearly as tenuous as you seem to assume - both organizations are interested in policing matters of faith (and its perversions), not just the slaughter of heretics. Various Sororitas orders have missions that are even less related to the Ecclesiarchy - the Ordo Dialogous and Famulous, for example, deal with matters particularly pertaining to the Inquisition, namely knowledge and social cohesion.

There is something else, though - the Inquisition should be affiliated with the Sisters, because anything else would impede its mission. There is also the good fortune that the timing of the establishment of both the "modern" Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus coincide. Remember, the OH was created just after Vandire's reign, as much to police the Ecclesiarchy as for any other reason, and would need inroads to do just that. The same Ecclesiarchy was banned from having any standing armed forces - and yet managed to pull a fast one with the definition of "men under arms," just as its former crack troops were left hanging without a mission. Now, that wordplay might have been funny, but just following Vandire's reign of Terror I doubt anyone was in a laughing mood, least of all the new order of the Inquisition this was essentially limiting. It made perfect sense for the same OH to "share" control over the Sisters as a sort of compromise (and political intrigue), since that way it both gets an elite fighting force and is better able to oversee the Ecclesiarchy and rein in any potential unhealthy ambitions. The story gets bonus points for having a nice dash of political intrigue - the clergy tries to retain a measure of its power, and the Inquisition (the cunning bastards we all know and love) coopts it in such a way that it benefits them instead.

Eternus
27-02-2012, 20:45
Not to mention that a degree of balance is maintained between the Ordos. The Malleus have the Grey Knights, the Xeno have the Deathwatch. If anything, the Hereticus are more characterful because they don't just have more Space Marines to beat people with.