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grandmasterfred
27-02-2012, 07:30
my friends and i are looking into starting a map based campaign based around the idea of the emporer and terra being blown up with the vast majority of chaos and imperial forces being blown up in the process, and the general imperiumk degenerating into several hundred warring factions.... but im getting off point im trying to decide what the armies of the imperium would look like after the emprer is dead and what not, i think that greyknights would be all but extinct and most spacemarine chapters would have lost all there special character.(opportunity to create my own) imperial gaurd would no longer be these massive formations of troops and supplys from differant planets and would be given differant army lists as they would come from differant types of worlds like armies from forge worlds smaller byt more elite and say an agri world lots of conscripts led by woodsmen. what are your opinions and beleifs on this subject?

Dylius
27-02-2012, 20:09
This is actually quite an interesting concept - especially for a world like Cadia and Hives with no way of supporting themselves - perhaps they would be forced to raid other planets, or perhaps control them. Rogue space marines, trying to salvage the dying embers of the Imperium and rekindle the Emperor's light is a pretty nice image as well. Are you going to set it in the future, where the other threats from the other races have diminished, so that humanity isn't completely screwed?

In answer to your question I imagine the remnants Imperial guard and Planetary Defence Forces would be forced to adapt: they may not have the man-power to replace their losses any more, so could indeed become more elite (or at least less likely to send their troops on suicide missions). If it was a kind of raiding force you could probably base it on fast attack; Forge worlds loads of heavy support and Hives mass infantry.

Kijamon
27-02-2012, 20:11
Depending when you set it the fortresses like The Fang, The Rock and various other Space marine home worlds might be the only strongholds left.

People would flock their in their billions abandoning the Imperium to the evils heading their way. It would shrink, resources would be scarce and the remaining Space Marines would be called upon time and time again to make ever more daring missions.

Charistoph
27-02-2012, 23:03
Well, let's see who'd be left, barring any other major events.

Ultramarines, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers were still fighting in Segmentum Ultramar.

Space Wolves and Dark Angels were coming in from elsewhere.

Night Lords were scattered before the Heresy began.

Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders were all recovering from Istvaan.

Adeptus Mechanicus would still be around, maybe, depending on what blew up Terra.

High Lords of Terra would not be in control (obviously), unless Guilleman resurrected the office and ensconsed them on Macragge, so no Echlisiarchy and likely no Sisters.

Fabulous Billy would liekly be around causing trouble, he left long before the finale at Terra.

Thousand Sons would be in the Eye, woth Ahriman preparing his Rubric.

Death Guard would be getting bloated in the Warp.

I think that 's everyone humanish.

grandmasterfred
27-02-2012, 23:12
humanity being screwd most likely. i also figured that the remaining imperial navy fleets would carve out there own empires as well as with out there"protection" there would be no intersteller tradethus further isolating worlds.

grandmasterfred
28-02-2012, 00:08
and this is after the 13th crusade

Grimbad
28-02-2012, 00:37
The Imperium already is hundreds of warring factions. Planetary governors murder each other and take each other's worlds. Massive rebellions occur all the time of their own accord. People go mad. People are mind controlled by alien infiltrators. People secretly are alien infiltrators. Communication is unreliable and slow, and so is travel. Etc.

Anyways, we have a precedent for what Space Marines do when there's trouble with Terra-- the Reign of Blood. The Space Marines remain neutral and attempt to defend humans in the regions surrounding their homeworlds, but avoid participation in the internal conflicts among the human lords.

grandmasterfred
28-02-2012, 00:44
well then to a greater extent with out the covert backstabbing usually brought on by fear of retribution brought on by the adeptes of terra, and im debating giving the various factions of the universe something to fight over say a gene seed production facility or a stash of artificer weapons or the body of a primach?

Chem-Dog
28-02-2012, 01:09
well then to a greater extent with out the covert backstabbing usually brought on by fear of retribution brought on by the adeptes of terra, and im debating giving the various factions of the universe something to fight over say a gene seed production facility or a stash of artificer weapons or the body of a primach?


Or just differing ideas on what is to be done. It happened once (Horus Heresy) and nearly happened again (See Guilleman/Dorn standoff) and probably a whole bunch of times.

However, if Horus succeeded in wiping out the Emperor and taking Terra he would then go on to wipe out humanity within a single generation.

Firaxin
28-02-2012, 03:26
Well if all hell broke loose and the Astronomicon was gone and humanity was split up into hundreds or thousands of warring fiefs no larger than a sub-sector...

Planetary Defense Forces, System Defense Forces, etc can no longer count on the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, or Space Marines coming to their rescue, let alone anyone responding to an astropathic distress call at all. If anything, new rival fiefs on their borders now makes them more vulnerable to attack than ever. The alliances that would survive are the ones that undergo a radical shift in their war-fighting philosophy. No longer are they part of a million-world empire with untold quintillions of replacement soldiers at its disposal. No longer are they a galaxy-spanning empire that has to deal with supply lines so long that they take years of travel in the warp to traverse.

Individual lives suddenly matter, even if you have a Hive World within your small collective. Your average human soldier is going to be equipped with powered carapace armor--not true Astartes battle-plate, but something more akin to Sororitas power armor. At a minimum he's going to be armed with a light boltgun (the kind designed for human hands) or a hellgun. And he's going to be trained hard, and not forgotten by the government--the government can't afford to be lazy with their PDF anymore because they are the last and only line of defense against invasion. With such a small area of space to worry about, logistics aren't a problem so equipment that requires a significant degree of maintenance won't be a problem.

Warp-capable ships won't be built going forwards, or at least not in any appreciable numbers. Cut off from the Astronomicon they wouldn't be able to go very far, and cut off from Sol they wouldn't be able to replace their Navigators. Battle-fleets will consist of system defense monitors, ships with more armaments, armor, shields, and/or speed than any invading ship of the same class would have, simply by exploiting the extra free space left over by taking out the non-essential warp drive and gellar field generator/projectors. Only colossal mass-conveyor transports would be warp capable, to shuttle food and materiel from system to system within the fiefdom.

Space marines (and the fiefs lucky enough to have a fortress-monastery within their borders) would throw out the Codex, or at the very least the 1,000-marine limit. Forced to take on more and more mundane missions without the Imperial Guard to serve as their anvil, these marines would recruit huge numbers of new recruits, turning themselves into a new Legion. I can easily imagine Hive Worlds or heavily urban civilized worlds with too many people and not enough food sending the poor, the homeless, and the outcast to the local Fortress-Monastery as a form of 'population control.'

grandmasterfred
28-02-2012, 05:54
what he said

Roberkhan
28-02-2012, 08:08
Good question and some good answers!
Think Europe between centuries V to X: shrinking commerce routes, splitted political powers, rise of a new form of private government (where politics, justice, resources and armies belong to a person, not to a community), abandonement of unsustainable forms of urbanization (Hives are not viable in system-sized kingdoms), etc.
However, there would be a key aspect: imperial ideological control diminishes or disappears. There could be two consequences:
- Progress, in a modern sense. Small, well conditioned kingdoms, could be capable of developing themselves in a way similar to Tau.
- Complete victory of the Chaos powers. :) Since Rogue Trader, one thing has been stated clear in the WH40k universe: the inner foe is the greatest contest to humanity's survival in the galaxy. Without the constant and tireless surveillance of the Emperor, the Eclesiarchy, the Inquisition and the whole imperial creed, millions upon millions of humans would quickly fall to all sorts of abomination, thus dooming themselves and their societies.
In 40k, temptation not only grows inside people as it does -always speaking from a christian point of view, which I don't share, but understand to a degree- in our world. Temptation is an active outer force; Chaos is sentient, cunning and works hard. An equally powerful force is needed to balance it and prevent mankind from falling into definitive damnation. That force is the constraining ideology of the Imperium. Without it, mankind would become a cheap version of the Eldar before the Fall.
On the tabletop, what about mixing Firaxin's optimized sci-fi soldiers with chaotic demagoges, crazy lunatic blood cults and lots of hovering armoured vehicles? Not to forget robots and cyborgs, no longer forbidden :D Mercenary Space Marines trying to recruit skilled technicians to prevent their warbands (formerly known as Chapters) from extinction would also be a good idea. You will also need a constantly playing CD with recorded laughs of pitiless gods...

Cheers!
Roberkhan

P.D: Oh, I almost forgot: No psyker population control. Psykers would thrive like lemmings. Whole armies could be made of low level psykers with unpredictable powers. Amaaaaaaaazing!

grandmasterfred
28-02-2012, 08:55
agh but remeber firaxin the vast majority of the pdf are no longer getting weapons or armour unless they happan to be on a forge world eventually they will start there own small scale production facilitys but i dont see hell guns beyond the maritian factions or remnats of imperial stormtroopers that will probably end up being some kind of mercenarything .

RandomThoughts
28-02-2012, 09:21
Well if all hell broke loose and the Astronomicon was gone and humanity was split up into hundreds or thousands of warring fiefs no larger than a sub-sector...

Planetary Defense Forces, System Defense Forces, etc can no longer count on the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, or Space Marines coming to their rescue, let alone anyone responding to an astropathic distress call at all. If anything, new rival fiefs on their borders now makes them more vulnerable to attack than ever. The alliances that would survive are the ones that undergo a radical shift in their war-fighting philosophy. No longer are they part of a million-world empire with untold quintillions of replacement soldiers at its disposal. No longer are they a galaxy-spanning empire that has to deal with supply lines so long that they take years of travel in the warp to traverse.

Individual lives suddenly matter, even if you have a Hive World within your small collective. Your average human soldier is going to be equipped with powered carapace armor--not true Astartes battle-plate, but something more akin to Sororitas power armor. At a minimum he's going to be armed with a light boltgun (the kind designed for human hands) or a hellgun. And he's going to be trained hard, and not forgotten by the government--the government can't afford to be lazy with their PDF anymore because they are the last and only line of defense against invasion. With such a small area of space to worry about, logistics aren't a problem so equipment that requires a significant degree of maintenance won't be a problem.

Warp-capable ships won't be built going forwards, or at least not in any appreciable numbers. Cut off from the Astronomicon they wouldn't be able to go very far, and cut off from Sol they wouldn't be able to replace their Navigators. Battle-fleets will consist of system defense monitors, ships with more armaments, armor, shields, and/or speed than any invading ship of the same class would have, simply by exploiting the extra free space left over by taking out the non-essential warp drive and gellar field generator/projectors. Only colossal mass-conveyor transports would be warp capable, to shuttle food and materiel from system to system within the fiefdom.

Space marines (and the fiefs lucky enough to have a fortress-monastery within their borders) would throw out the Codex, or at the very least the 1,000-marine limit. Forced to take on more and more mundane missions without the Imperial Guard to serve as their anvil, these marines would recruit huge numbers of new recruits, turning themselves into a new Legion. I can easily imagine Hive Worlds or heavily urban civilized worlds with too many people and not enough food sending the poor, the homeless, and the outcast to the local Fortress-Monastery as a form of 'population control.'

And where would that advanced tech come from, when everyone is cut off from supply routes?

I think you'll see the same think happen that happened in Japan between 1333 and 1600: You start with a shattering of the old empires, the tiny domains conquer each other, with each successful conquest becoming stronger, until you end up with a small number of superpowers. After that either one of them swallows the others and we have a new (and unrecognizably different) Imperium, or we end up with a bunch of superpowers carefully watching each other, think cold war US vs Russia, Rome vs Karthago, or Federation vs both the Klingon and Romulan empires.

Wishing
28-02-2012, 11:36
I really like the idea of this kind of alternative universe. I also think the game would be much better suited to something like this. Currently all the imperium forces are technically on the same side, so even though you can make up awkward reasons for why marines would fight other marines, in the larger scheme of things, it's something that shouldn't happen. You won't get anyone writing up a fluffy narrative campaign about the war between the ultramarines and the black templars. Imperium forces are supposed to battle chaos and xenos, not each other.

Chaos and xenos, in turn do not have this problem. There are some xenos factions that are unlikely to fight amongst themselves (tau, eldar, tyranids, etc.) but others have no problems with this at all (orks, chaos). And they all happy fight each other cross-faction.

The game would be more satisfying background-wise if there was no intact imperium providing a central shared bureaucracy behind the imperial forces, but instead all the different armies and groups were independent, much like the design behind chaos and orks. Then there would still be a division between the good-ish, civilised army types and the evil and alien types, but the civilised armies would make sense in going to war against each other without this feeling weird and awkward.

So yeah, I would personally prefer if this was how the background of the game had been designed from the beginning.

Roberkhan
28-02-2012, 16:20
Imperium forces are supposed to battle chaos and xenos, not each other.

Hi, Wishing! Allow me to disagree. IMHO, Imperial forces are partially designed precisely to do that: fight each other. It's something that goes back to the Heresy, of course. No Imperial force is able to become a sub-segmentum-sized menace before all other forces arrive to crush it. That's why PDF is qualitatively inferior to Adeptus Arbites, why Imperial Guard is no more technologically developed and why Chapters are so small; it's also the reason for the Eclesiarchy to have a privative army, too. Even Adeptus Mechanicus have their own armies!
But this diversity comes not only from a predetermined central design. It reflects the complex coallition of diferent organisms that make up the Imperium. As a political organization, the Imperium is more similar to Lower Middle Ages' states than to modern states: it is not centralized. Such thing as the "monopoly of violence" in the hands of the state does not exist, because central state does not exist. The Imperium is a federation of organizations that share some interests most of the time, and each of them has it's mutually recognized right and capability to exert violence. When they have a crash of interests, conflict can spread as easily as if they were Orks. It's significative that the major organ of gobernment in the Imperium, the High Lords of Terra, is a conclave of representatives of this organisms. The Emperor is only a symbol, as God was for the Emperor of the Holy Roman German Empire and the Pope. It didn't prevent them from making long and hateful wars to each other.

However, I imagine many of this conflicts between Imperial factions being settled in less destructive ways, such as wrestling fights between Chapters' champions, presetled ritual battles or contained wars which finish in treaties as soon as a faction gets beaten in one or two battles (think wars between the Spanish Monarchy and France in the XVI century). Total war should still be preserved for the Xenos and Chaos scum, that really deserves it. ;)

Firaxin
28-02-2012, 21:26
unless they happan to be on a forge world


And where would that advanced tech come from, when everyone is cut off from supply routes?
@ both noobs:

Each world arms and equips its own PDF and all IG regiments founded there, for starters. Furthermore, the Mechanicum is not the only faction capable of running a factory. What do you think people in a Hive City do all day? Sit on their butts? Hives are gargantuan city-factories. Even Imperial Navy ships aren't usually built in orbit over Forgeworlds. Hell some cruiser variants can be easily built in orbit over a Feral World... If Forgeworlds were the only planets with any industry, all the other planets would be agri-worlds. Speaking of agri-worlds, Imperial farming technology is supposedly efficient enough that one Agri-world can feed a whole sub-sector including a number of Hiveworlds. So Hiveworlds would not suddenly become unsustainable, although they'd definitely notice the pinch.

Edit: by the way, boltguns, hellguns, and power armor are nowhere near "advanced technology."

agurus1
28-02-2012, 22:55
I would argue that Imperials have a great number of reasons to fight amongst themselves. If you ever read Titanicus, two loyalist Titan legions almost come into outright war with one another (in the middle of a WAR with a TRAITOR LEGION), because of a difference in interpretation of their religious creed (essentially). In Gaunt's Ghosts, there are at least two occasions when the Ghost's come into conflict with Loyalist IG regiments, once they were intentionally fired upon by Imperial Basilisks, on the second, they have to fight a regiment of Heavy Infantry that hold a vendetta against the Ghost's (this isn't just a fist fight, it was war, a good portion of both sides died, and by the end of the novel the Heavy Infantry are pretty much wiped out if memory serves). So IG vs IG is easy, rebellion/insurrection, regimental feuds, ect...

Space Marine vs Guard can be quite the same, rebellion, or a culling because the Guardsmen saw too much (daemonic incursion). Space Marines vs Space Marines can be harder, but in a Galaxy where we know members of Loyalist Chapters renege on their vows to the Emperor and turn renegade (there are documented accounts of Space Wolves, Raven Guard, and others), it is not to hard to imagine that recent renegades might come into conflict with each other. Even small misunderstandings and perfectly good intentions can result in conflict (Badab War - good intentions being on the non-Astral Claws parts). We are talking about super-human warriors with human failings, and who like to keep their honor spotless. I can see even insults between commanders of different chapters leading to conflict if the individuals are touchy enough and if their chapters have a history of rivalry.

As to the OP's topic, I subscribe to Firaxin's interpretation. With Planetary governors no longer accountable to the Imperial Creed to restrict advancement/freedom I think that sectors that are able to survive will begin to become more advanced societies, especially those that benefit from the protection of a Space Marine Chapter (see Ultramar).

Wishing
29-02-2012, 10:17
I would argue that Imperials have a great number of reasons to fight amongst themselves.
<snip>
Space Marines vs Space Marines can be harder, but in a Galaxy where we know members of Loyalist Chapters renege on their vows to the Emperor and turn renegade (there are documented accounts of Space Wolves, Raven Guard, and others), it is not to hard to imagine that recent renegades might come into conflict with each other.

Sure, there is lots of scope for low level inter-Imperium conflicts in the setting in principle. My point is just that that's not usually what the game is portrayed as being about. The tagline is "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", and the artwork usually shows space marines battling orks or tyranids or similar alien enemies. The theme is that the marines are the last defenders of a dying humanity that is beset on all sides by a swarm of evil non-Imperium foes.
This theme isn't really very conductive to all-out war between marine chapters, with ultramarines butchering salamanders day in and day out. Yet this is what happens in a large percentage of games I imagine, since marines are so ubiquitous. I just think it would be nice if the setting was more suited to what actually happens regularly on many gaming tables, which is loyalist marines vs. loyalist marines.

Roberkhan
29-02-2012, 15:25
Maybe they are having their Space Marine Olympic Games? :D

It really wasn't a good joke. Damn, it barely is a joke. Sorry :(

Fithos
29-02-2012, 18:53
I would assume that the different sub sectors would lose communication with each other, eventually lose the ability of interplanetary travel as ships fall into disrepair as there are not enough materials to maintain them. Billions would die and whoever was left would create isolated society's trying to scrape a living for themselves and protect their worlds from non-human threat and eventually probably forget that there are other humans out there. That is until someone on a planet unites the population in a grand ideal of a crusade and creates a bunch of superhuman warriors to help him reunify all of humanity scattered throughout the stars and build a vast empire of dogmatic reunification of a single ideal of "truth."

History repeats itself.

grandmasterfred
29-02-2012, 22:54
ok original question was what would the army lists look like...

grey knights rock
01-03-2012, 01:31
+1 to the chaos taking everything over. The fluff says that the emperor is the only one stopping endless hordes of daemons spilling into the material relm. even with the emperor daemons still get in. imagine how bad it would be without him? I think the eldar with their craftworlds would be the only ones able to resist the daemons with their craftworlds. they might even take pity on the now broken humans and share their tech with them. Imagine humans with craftworlds and basically living an eldar way of life, using aspects to control their emotions and the lures of chaos. (basically humans would have grav tanks and aspect warriors like the eldar in their army lists.)

Panzeh
01-03-2012, 04:13
I think having actual diversity in more than the looks for humans might actually be pretty cool, seeing actual fighting styles other than "well you got imperial guard, then you got spehss marines, and various religious fanatics" Guys with actual tactics, autoguns, light machine guns, etc.. whoa.

RandomThoughts
01-03-2012, 10:05
+1 to the chaos taking everything over. The fluff says that the emperor is the only one stopping endless hordes of daemons spilling into the material relm. even with the emperor daemons still get in. imagine how bad it would be without him? I think the eldar with their craftworlds would be the only ones able to resist the daemons with their craftworlds. they might even take pity on the now broken humans and share their tech with them. Imagine humans with craftworlds and basically living an eldar way of life, using aspects to control their emotions and the lures of chaos. (basically humans would have grav tanks and aspect warriors like the eldar in their army lists.)

Or perhaps that was a lie all along, used to stabilize the imperium and keep everyone in check.
Like everything else the imperium does...


This theme isn't really very conductive to all-out war between marine chapters, with ultramarines butchering salamanders day in and day out. Yet this is what happens in a large percentage of games I imagine, since marines are so ubiquitous. I just think it would be nice if the setting was more suited to what actually happens regularly on many gaming tables, which is loyalist marines vs. loyalist marines.

As s dedicated roleplayer, I have to say: It's your responsibility and that of your group to create/capture the theme you're after. If none of you are willing to take on the role of the evil aliens encroaching on an imperium on the brink of defeat, you can't complain that the theme put forward by GW doesn't make it into your games.

Now, regarding your demand for more internal strife between imperial forces, that's all already there in the fluff, just not as prominent as the iconic marine vs xenox posters. The fluff leaves no question, that the imperium is held together by pure force, every day a new world strives for freedom and independence, just to be put down by excessive force. Whole space marine chapters have been wiped out and deleted from all imperial records for slight acts of obedience, and those were probably planet wide campaigns, not a single bombing run on their main fortress. Add in bloody feuds between loyalist chapters, like the one going on between the Space Wulfes and the Dark Angels (unless that was ret-conned out of the fluff in the last 15 years somehow), Blood Angels and Dark Angels both going to war to protect their dark secrets getting out, space marines caught in the middle of wars based on a mess-up by the imperial bureaucracy with conflicting orders, the possibility of chaotic taint to everyone including space marine company captains, and you have a ton of internal strife, just not on public display (in game as well as in rea life on book covers), as the imperium probably denies all of it. ;)


ok original question was what would the army lists look like...

I would like to apologize on behalf of everyone involved for hijacking your thread, but the simple answer is: In order to answer that, we either have to get a very clear picture of how human worlds change after the extinction of earth, or be very creative, in the sense that we have to make a ton of unsupported assumptions - just ask anyone from 1912 what he thinks the world will look like after WW1, or who will be fighting each other in WW2, or if he has any clue what a nuclear weapon or a cold war is... ^^

Dylius
01-03-2012, 20:20
...I would like to apologize on behalf of everyone involved for hijacking your thread, but the simple answer is: In order to answer that, we either have to get a very clear picture of how human worlds change after the extinction of earth, or be very creative, in the sense that we have to make a ton of unsupported assumptions - just ask anyone from 1912 what he thinks the world will look like after WW1, or who will be fighting each other in WW2, or if he has any clue what a nuclear weapon or a cold war is... ^^

Well what do we have now? Are we all in agreement that guardsmen will be better equipped and trained (e.g. carapace armour, veterans etc.) as they can't afford to throw away men any more (though hive worlds will have more infantry than others) and that all the worlds will have access to tanks (though forgeworlds will obviously have more)?

RandomThoughts
01-03-2012, 22:32
Well what do we have now? Are we all in agreement that guardsmen will be better equipped and trained (e.g. carapace armour, veterans etc.) as they can't afford to throw away men any more (though hive worlds will have more infantry than others) and that all the worlds will have access to tanks (though forgeworlds will obviously have more)?

Not really. I expect to see a lot of human worlds loosing technology at first, think of Catachan infantry with a few scout sentinels at best as support, but probably with hardened veterans (think sturdy pioneers), hive worlds probably return to huge armies of conscripts, lifes are cheap when you don't have enough food to keep everyone alive anyway, while few worlds could easily shed imperial dogma and go all-out tech - they'll probably end up close to what Tau are now, of Admech (if it had rules).

Wishing
01-03-2012, 23:02
As s dedicated roleplayer, I have to say: It's your responsibility and that of your group to create/capture the theme you're after. If none of you are willing to take on the role of the evil aliens encroaching on an imperium on the brink of defeat, you can't complain that the theme put forward by GW doesn't make it into your games.

Now, regarding your demand for more internal strife between imperial forces, that's all already there in the fluff, just not as prominent as the iconic marine vs xenox posters. The fluff leaves no question, that the imperium is held together by pure force, every day a new world strives for freedom and independence, just to be put down by excessive force. Whole space marine chapters have been wiped out and deleted from all imperial records for slight acts of obedience, and those were probably planet wide campaigns, not a single bombing run on their main fortress. Add in bloody feuds between loyalist chapters, like the one going on between the Space Wulfes and the Dark Angels (unless that was ret-conned out of the fluff in the last 15 years somehow), Blood Angels and Dark Angels both going to war to protect their dark secrets getting out, space marines caught in the middle of wars based on a mess-up by the imperial bureaucracy with conflicting orders, the possibility of chaotic taint to everyone including space marine company captains, and you have a ton of internal strife, just not on public display (in game as well as in rea life on book covers), as the imperium probably denies all of it. ;)

Good arguments, especially about how a group can approach the game like an RPG and simply agree to not all play marine armies. However, I still feel that this shouldn't be necessary, and that having half of the available army books for the game be technically allied and on the same side, with marine-on-marine warfare being possible but hidden away in non-iconic and marginal fluff, is awkward. In all other wargames I'm familiar with, including WHFB, all the different factions are all distinctly separate military entities that need no justification for waging war on each other (LoTR is an exception I guess, explained by the fact that the setting is a literary setting and not a wargame setting). To me, that 40k has 50% of its army options be from the same "country" and therefore not technically enemies is conceptually unfortunate, bordering on being a design flaw in my view.

Dylius
03-03-2012, 10:30
Not really. I expect to see a lot of human worlds loosing technology at first, think of Catachan infantry with a few scout sentinels at best as support, but probably with hardened veterans (think sturdy pioneers), hive worlds probably return to huge armies of conscripts, lifes are cheap when you don't have enough food to keep everyone alive anyway, while few worlds could easily shed imperial dogma and go all-out tech - they'll probably end up close to what Tau are now, of Admech (if it had rules).

I'd of thought that they'd have kept pretty much the same technology - if they still had the Standard Template Constructions (I hope it's not just Space Marines who use these :O), and why wouldn't they? As far as I know they don't need to be in contact with Mars to have them.

Also, as Firaxin said, agri worlds would still be able to support multiple hive worlds, so as long as a hive world controlled one they should be able to support their population. And although Hive worlds do have massive manpower, they'll still have much less than the former Imperium had so may be a little less quick to needlessly throw lives away, which is why I think they'll at least make an attempt to equip their soldiers better. Of course they would still conscript people if there weren't enough volunteers, but I think they'd still try and equip and train them better (at least by Imperial conscript standards).

I could see technology improving on some worlds though - it helps if you're not immediately denounced as a heretic every time you think of something new.

grandmasterfred
03-03-2012, 20:47
all right so i got to thinking who would be the most likely to be the human faction uniting the various former imperial worlds. im thinking rouge traderes as they could use there various alien contacts to readly obtain alien technology to replace jump drives and would have a far better chance to have some kind of diplomatic ties to the other aliens and spacemarine chapters. im thinking they would form so loose alliance in case of emergencys but would other wise remain largly independant and perhap even war amongst them selves.

Dylius
03-03-2012, 21:21
They'd certainly have the most contact with other races if they had a replacement for warp travel, which would definitely allow better communications which the worlds would need if they wanted to work together. You could also have situations like with the British Empire and the East India Company, where the Empire was forced to support the Company - even going to war - because they got so much money from them (at least I think that's how it worked...).

Firaxin
04-03-2012, 20:05
Now that I think of it, one of the FFG Rogue Trader supplements had an optional component that allowed you to manually plot a destination into a machine, and then you could warp there without a Navigator--although the trip took twice the time. Like manually plotting a hyperdrive jump without an astromech.

grandmasterfred
04-03-2012, 22:20
and its already essentiallty all ready random so instead of takeing 10 years it takes 20 and you could end up where ever