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Fat Bastard
05-06-2005, 15:08
How come Bretonnia is one of the armies you rarely see at tournaments?

A friend of mine recently started a Brets army and I was looking for some interesting threads concerning tactics but couldn't find any. Anyone with suggestions about where to look for them? Specific sites about them?

Moonduck
05-06-2005, 16:35
The last RTT I went to had 3 Bret armies out of 14. My friend runs my wife's Brets in local tourneys, and generally comes in close to the top. They're competitive. Maybe it's a regional bias where you are?

anarchistica
05-06-2005, 17:07
What's this "tactics" nonsense you're going on about? Just field 6-8 lances (6-9 models), a bunch of Pegasus Knights, the Lord on Pegasus so you can take multiple units and possibly some minor magic protection and you'll do fine. :p

But seriously, if you look on WPS or TWF, you'll see tournament players going on about how awfully powerful they are and how they're up there with Chaos Dwarfs and SAD.

Galonthar
05-06-2005, 17:26
AHEM!!,.... humie huggers,.. turn away now,.. you might not like it...


THEY ARE HUMANS,... and it a FANTASY game,... so why play ordinairy humies, while this is the chance to get rid of those stupid everyday mortals, and play something you don`t see every day

and (this is personal,....) you brets. may not realize it,....
but do you know you don`t have any un-armoured units (exept Damsels), and mostly the armour you wear is FAAAAAAAAR to heavy? (flamin 1+`sses)
and well.... it just ruins a game;.. the bret player can sent forth allmost everything he has, and he has a great chance he will chrush the opponent, because they are near to immortal due to their saves (a normal non-bret spearmen unit will maybe kill only 1 knight in 2 turns becuase of it, while the knights butchter the spears within no time)

moonduck,... I doubt it regional,... of all people I know who play WH here, only 2 of them have got bret models: one of them started a bret army, but started hating them (stupid humans) and started with the HE,... and the other one started about a year ago with them,... and no-body likes to play battles against him, because of the 2nd reason I gave (allthough the first gives a good excuse to still do it; ERASE MANKIND! :evilgrin: )

sry,.... I just had to say it

Lady Bastet
05-06-2005, 17:36
The Knights Bretonnia are not that powerful if you know how to deal with them. However I find the average Bretonnian player depends far too much on this so called blessing.

In my experience this results in one sided battles where the player either wins or gets stamped into the ground.

taer
05-06-2005, 18:49
Well, I just started a brettonian army, and from what I can tell with playing them (so far I've only got two games in with them) they seem to me to be about as effective as all the other armies I've ever played. Their initial charge is quite devastating, but my regular opponent is a canny player, and once I bust through his line, end up going off the table edge (if I don't I'm even more screwed), he sets up unavoidable traps for my Brets. BTW he plays an all infantry Empire army ATM. Our first game was a hard fought draw, and the second game I eeked out a minor victory in the last turn. So I haven't found them overpowered at all, especially when dealing with someone who knows how to use his army to best effect.

Wez
05-06-2005, 19:06
I won the first Portent tournament with my Brets, so I don't think they're unheard of in tournies.[/shameless plug]

Certainly though, they are obscenely good against a lot of armies. Against armies that cannot flee (VC/khemri/slaanesh/Khorne) there's not much you can do against them if you have semi-decent magic protection (raising skellies/zombies isn't really a worry, when even after the charge you're winning combats on kills!). You just have to take the charge and hope for the best, which rarely works. Against some armies however they're pretty dire (MSU armies/ flying monster armies). Against your 'average' army, I think they're slightly over-powered: they get a lot of very good special rules, but simply don't pay a lot of points for them. The apparent weaknesses of cav armies (things that ignore armour saves/ are faster than cav/ are very high strength/ have high US+ranks) are essentially nullified by the special rules.

I no longer play with them. Games now tend to be very boring when I use them. It's just a case of point and charge. I'd like to say they require lots of tactics to use effectively, but in all honesty if you just take a few large lances (6-9), some magic defence and a few characters, you don't need much skill to win against all but the most talented of opponents. Personally, I'd like to see all the knight costs bumped up a bit to reflect their abilities. But I know that's not going to happen.

(And before anyone says "But they have huge flanks", that's pretty irrelevant when they move as fast as 90% of fast cavalry and won't be in combat for more than the turn they charge against 90% of opponents)

-Wez

taer
05-06-2005, 19:16
The real downside of the brettonians is when your opponent is smart and screens his battle line with cheap and expendible units, only to set up a trap once you've invariably smashed through their line. The empire army we have been discussing in the "Are Greatsords worth it" thread is very good at this (however, this is not the same empire army I have been facing off against lately). Cannons are also a nightmare for deep formations, as are stick units in general. Also, there are utter rubbish in Lustria (I'm terrified of quicksand)

Moonduck
05-06-2005, 19:30
As I mentioned, my normal opponent runs my wife's Brets for tourneys, and we usually run our tourney lists for a coupla games prior to sort of warm up. While he does better than I do at tourneys, he's yet to beat me with his Bret list. They're strong, but not unbeatable.

The big thing to remember is that for the Bret lists I'm used to (alsmot entirely cav) the game is effectively over by turn 3, one oway or the other. Either he has wrecked his opponent, or is stifled and gonna get stomped.

The list I run when I use them is very close to his list. Here it is, mostly because I can't specifically recall his list. The overall make-up is the same, but numbers might be a tad off as I'm doing it from memory.

2k list:
6 questors (unit champ, no banner)
2x5 and 1x6 KoTR (full comand)
1x8 Knights Errant (full command and Errantry Banner)
2x5 mounted yeomen (banner, musician)
1x12 skirmish archers (musician)
2 damsels (1 mounted with questors, 1 on foot with archers, both level 1 w/ 2 scrolls)
1 lord (questing vow, virtue that prevents outnumber, sword of the quest, gromril great healm)
1 BSB (questing vow, banner that cancels enemy rank bonus, virtue that gives +1 CR as long as general lives)
1 Paladin (questing vow, virtue that allows rerolls in challenges, Gauntlet of the Duel)

The lord, mounted damsel, and 2 pallies go in the Questor unit. This is why the questors have no banner. Combat Resolution is +1 banner, +1 general is alive, +2 ranks making +4 at the outset. The unit is never outnumbered, is Unit Strength 20, and cancels enemy rank bonuses. The pally makes the challenge on the charge, and is viscious with the rerolls, the general ignores armour saves and rerolls his own armour saves when failed. The unit starts with 1 Magic Resistance from the damsel. The BSB hopes to stay alive. The general idea is to hit the enemy unit so that the BSB is explosed to minimum attacks. The duellist challenges, drawing out attacks, and the general just kills indiscriminately. The front line puts out 7 attacks at S6, 3 at S4, and the ever-present horse attacks (which I always have good dice on, for no apparent reason). The rest of the unit drops 6 S6 attacks on the charge thanks to lance formation. Total of 13 S6 attacks. You do not want to get hit by this thing, especailly when your rank bonus is iced by the banner.

It's a lot of eggs in one basket, but the armour saves are great, the MR is there, the movement is killer, has the ward save, and the Questing vow allows rerolls for any psych tests. This unit is launched at the biggest, nastiest thing it can hit.

The Errants are almost as good with 8 S6 (plus horses) attacks on the chargeand immunity to psych that turn as well.

The 3 small KotR units are used as maneuver elements, flankers if possible, screeners, etc. they are multi-purpose units that are strong enough to get things done (putting out 6 S5 hits, and horses, on the charge) and yet small enough to be maneuvable and not appearing to be terribly dangerous.

The mounted yeomen are flank security, bait for frenzied troops, all sorts of stuff. They're even buff enough (5 S4 attacks on the charge, plus horses) to handle small units on their own.

The skirmish archers are security hole-pluggers. They can be back-line defense against fliers, front end screen against shooting, bait, etc. Heck, I've even used them as weak flankers before, they may not cancel rank bonus, but they do provide a +1 for flanking, and can be used to outnumber.

In all, it's a strong list with a load of movement. If my buddy were better at consistently getting the charge against me, he'd prolly win more. As is, the only reason I beat him is because I'm just a little bit better on judging distance and stealing the charge.

Wez
05-06-2005, 19:33
The real downside of the brettonians is when your opponent is smart and screens his battle line with cheap and expendible units, only to set up a trap once you've invariably smashed through their line.

Unless you know you'll be facing Brets, chances are few people will use those types of armies. If you know you're facing brets, they're no harder to beat than most other armies imo.


Cannons are also a nightmare for deep formations, as are stick units in general. Also, there are utter rubbish in Lustria (I'm terrified of quicksand)
First the cannon ball has to hit the unit, then it has to roll high to hit enough brets (as they're bases are very long), then it has to wound and finally the brets even get a nice 5+ ward. On average you'll be killing 1 or 0 brets in a 9-strong unit.

-Wez

samw
05-06-2005, 20:34
I think Brets get a lot of flak when they really shouldn't. There seems to be a general objection to humans, that haven't sold their souls to chaos, being able to win combats. Brets really can't go offensive magically at 2K, their shooting is more a novelty than any serious threat as the trebuchet takes up a rare choice. Hence Bret players have few options than to concentrate on movement and combat, which we will obviously do well in.

I think it odd when people complain about getting charged by cavalry, I was under the impression that's what cavalry do. And you know what? Brets are MEANT to be the best heavy cavalry army in the game! Jut as an elf can mow down opponents with their superior shooting, and Slann blast them about magically, and chaos be rock-hard foot-sloggers, so Bret+horse+lance should=broken enemy unit!

My knights who cost three or four times as much as your empire spearmen, the cheapest of whom costs the same as a chosen chaos warrior, should run you over, if you don't like it, there are plenty of unbreakable/stubborn units or nifty magic items in the lists to stop it, but unsupported, don't complain when your units get wiped out.

So yes to the questioner Brets are unpopular, but only with non-bret players! :D

Angelripper
05-06-2005, 21:49
Well, I don't see the point in criticising (right spelling?) the Brets.

First: They are Knights, and therefore rely on heavy Cav.
Second: They don't wear Plate so only got a 2+ Save
third: They are vulnerable to flanking attacks and in big units a pain to manoeuvre.
fourth: A smart player could easily lure them into a trap (as stated before)
fifth: Magic? as Bretplayer in lowpoint games you can't get enough of it.
sixth:The bretonnian Archers and Trebuchet is a Joke. Archers are good for screening but to slow to be usefull for more than 1 or 2 Turns. The Trebuchet is a rare Choise, nothing compared to the empire Mortar/Greatcannon.

I fight against empire knights often. They are a real pain in the !@€$%. 1+ Save!
Truely they don't got the Lanceformation but are annoying anyway because it's hard for normal troops to get rid of them.

I got a small Bret army and it's fun to fight with them and against them. They are effective if you know what to do and ineffective if your opponent knows how to take them.
If you get beaten by Brets everytime you face them, just overthink your tactics and your army.
IMHO every armybook got what is needed to kill every other army, including Brets.

taer
05-06-2005, 22:03
Unless you know you'll be facing Brets, chances are few people will use those types of armies. If you know you're facing brets, they're no harder to beat than most other armies imo.

No, I just think it means having a balanced list that can deal with everything, including setting this up. Cheap and expendible units are common in nearly every army, as are some infantry. All it takes is a little forethought before the game starts (usually during the army parade) to come up with effective counters to everything the enemy has got.


First the cannon ball has to hit the unit, then it has to roll high to hit enough brets (as they're bases are very long), then it has to wound and finally the brets even get a nice 5+ ward. On average you'll be killing 1 or 0 brets in a 9-strong unit.
-Wez

Not really, as all you have to do is touch a model in a rank (even barely) to hit it. Bretts only take up as much room as 2 chaos warriors, and on a bounce, anything but maybe a 2 or 4 is gonna hit about three of them. (Sure, this isn't always the case, but you should get two frontal shots before the brets get to you, and another shot in the mid stages of the game) Even averaging 2 kills a shot (1/3 chance of a save) that's a lot of carnage on a single unit of 6-9 models. Two cannons is even worse, as they can effectively make a unit combat ineffective every turn.

Fat Bastard
05-06-2005, 23:14
I was just wondering cause recently I went to a local tournament and there were 28 players playing Fantasy, but not even one had Bretonnia. The number of players playing CHaos is just insane!

I like the idea about the general on a pegasus and having just knights and pegasus knights. It will be one fast army although it will get boring fast.

How come most think the trebuchet is a waste? S10 is great right? All it takes is a good guess and that can be practised, right? SQUAHS!!! :p

taer
05-06-2005, 23:25
Most people think the Trebuchet is trash because it doesn't compliment the average brettonian army (one that is almost all cavalry) very well. With your knight units getting the charge on turn three at the latest (without wonky weather effects that is) it really has only about 2 turns of shooting and very little in the way of support units to ensure its survival and continued worthiness. However in the brettonian peasant and magic from hell army, Trebuchets are terrific choices.

arxhon
05-06-2005, 23:29
Could be because they're actually rather difficult to paint, well, the knights are.

Could be because they appear to the average joe to not have a lot of options; you got knights and foot, and a lot of other armies have stuff like screaming bells, daemons, helblasters and so on.

Gorog Irongut
05-06-2005, 23:59
No, I just think it means having a balanced list that can deal with everything, including setting this up. Cheap and expendible units are common in nearly every army, as are some infantry. All it takes is a little forethought before the game starts (usually during the army parade) to come up with effective counters to everything the enemy has got.


Not really, as all you have to do is touch a model in a rank (even barely) to hit it. Bretts only take up as much room as 2 chaos warriors, and on a bounce, anything but maybe a 2 or 4 is gonna hit about three of them. (Sure, this isn't always the case, but you should get two frontal shots before the brets get to you, and another shot in the mid stages of the game) Even averaging 2 kills a shot (1/3 chance of a save) that's a lot of carnage on a single unit of 6-9 models. Two cannons is even worse, as they can effectively make a unit combat ineffective every turn.

I find my dwarven cannons to be quite good against the poor little knights. But then I prefer to hit them with a little something called a Stone thrower. They fall over like rolling pins. Slightly less effective is of course the flame cannon, but if he's got knights to shoot it's not like I'm going to be aiming at his silly little archers.

samw
06-06-2005, 01:54
It's not that trebuchets are bad, far from it. It's that I can't take more of them! If they we're a special choice I'd get another one right away. Hence brets can only have a little bit of shooting (excepting peasant horde lists) Bizarrely the trebushet complements brets very well. Against heavy cav opponents tend to bunch up in mutually supporting formations. Hence you're very likely to hit something even if you scatter! My trebuchet has in its career accounted for a hellcannon (two shots), eleven ironbreakers(one shot) five Dragon Princes (one shot) and a Dark elf RBT among others. However, with only one, it's hard to make a massive impact.

Fat Bastard
06-06-2005, 07:40
What do you think of the usefullness of Questing Knights? Since there are no plastics of them it's so much easier and cheaper to take either more KOTR or GRail Knights. Would this be a loss?

What's up with the GreatWeapons anyway? Since when do the Bretts no longer use their lances?

Angelripper
06-06-2005, 13:49
Questing Knights are quite usefull. I put a small Unit of 6 on my Flank and let them Charge in the flanks of Big annoying units such as Empireknights or Cold one Knights and Silverhelmets. They strike last after their initial impact but alwasy got their Strength of 6 which helps tearing down heavy armoured troops

LaughinGremlin
06-06-2005, 14:56
3 words for you:

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen

Then you say, "Bring it!" to the opposing Bret player.

In response to the "playing humans is lame" argument, humans exist in basically all fantasy worlds, and the non-humans seem that much cooler when compared and contrasted to the human and demi-human populations. As already mentioned, some people love the fact that there are humans to kill. Warhammer wouldn't be any fun without humans, so be grateful that some players choose them, especially if you can gleefully slaughter them, and envy the fact that humans are smart enough to make 18' long spears to stop cavalry.

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen

Lady Bastet
06-06-2005, 15:22
What do you think of the usefullness of Questing Knights? Since there are no plastics of them it's so much easier and cheaper to take either more KOTR or GRail Knights. Would this be a loss?
Conversions?

All you really need obtain is a smallish metal grail from Mail Order for each Knight and use it to replace the existing heraldry.

Likewise you can replace the Lances with Great Weapons to create Questing Knights.

taer
06-06-2005, 18:09
Yeah, the empire militia sprue and mordheim accessory sprue are excellent to use to convert Questing knights. I've converted 21 for my Brettonian army (2 units of 6, 1 0f 9)

Sir_Turalyon
06-06-2005, 18:18
I would suggest Dwarf greataxes instead of imperial militia for two reasons: they look mor bretonnian (well, they look pretty much generic, while militia greatswords look very imperial), and are useless on dwarf regiments, so dwarf players will give them for free.

Imbroglio
06-06-2005, 18:27
I'd love a Brettonian army, because they can look very impressive, and after 2-3 attempts I haven't beaten them yet. On the other hand... painting all that heraldry... *shudders*

Regards,

-- Imbroglio

Lady Bastet
06-06-2005, 19:08
Personally I think a sword looks more Knightly, each to their own.

Moonduck
06-06-2005, 20:10
There's at least one Questor arm with greatsword available by bitz order. That arm alone is sufficient to convert a plastic into a questor. Additional stuff is helpful, of course, but not totally necessary.

As to heralrdy, the most common item for Questors is the Fleur d'Lis.

Angelripper
06-06-2005, 21:28
3 words for you:

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen

Then you say, "Bring it!" to the opposing Bret player.



Pikemen work well but need serious cover. one Lance in the flank and they are toast. Nospecial Pikerules if you get flanked and than the guys are just expensive Dead-Meat!

Lady Bastet
06-06-2005, 22:54
This is Dogs of War unit so regiment of Duellists on either side?

Grumnir
07-06-2005, 07:05
3 words for you:

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen


More relevant if you know beforehand your facing Brets. If you include one unit in an all comers list they will often be under utilised as cav can attack other units or not be cav at all!. If you have one unit as an anti-bret precaution then as only one unit they are relatively avoidable.

Eldacar
07-06-2005, 08:38
Jut as an elf can mow down opponents with their superior shooting
I laughed when I read that.

As to Bretonnians, what tends to annoy me the most is the Blessing. It is made out as if it is only optional, but I haven't ever seen a Bretonnian player refuse to take it. They lose the first turn, but since the entire army can be cavalry, it won't matter, because odds are that they'll get the charge anyway. There's a lot of other little things about them, most notably the stupid Bretonnian RAF, but the Blessing is what really annoys me.

It renders them with a 5+ Ward Save against the High-S attacks that would otherwise destroy their armour. You hit them with a S6 cavalry charge, White Lions, whatever, and it doesn't matter. Their 1+AS is now a 4+, sure, but they get a 5+ Ward to make up for it.

Galonthar
07-06-2005, 12:28
3 words for you:

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen

Then you say, "Bring it!" to the opposing Bret player.

In response to the "playing humans is lame" argument, humans exist in basically all fantasy worlds, and the non-humans seem that much cooler when compared and contrasted to the human and demi-human populations. As already mentioned, some people love the fact that there are humans to kill. Warhammer wouldn't be any fun without humans, so be grateful that some players choose them, especially if you can gleefully slaughter them, and envy the fact that humans are smart enough to make 18' long spears to stop cavalry.

Pikemen
Pikemen
Pikemen


OK!.. have I missed something,.. or have pikes gor a bonus vs (heavy) cav. ????
(exept the "fight in 2 ranks rule")



Jut as an elf can mow down opponents with their superior shooting

errm... I play WE myself, and sometimes face those brets,... and I can assure you;
hitting & wounding them is easy (if not boring),... but PIERCING THEIR ARMOUR???,... that next to impossible... :skull:

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-06-2005, 13:24
Pikes get to strike first and +1 str against charging cavalry. Sadly, when it comes down to it, a lance will more or less just run over a pike unit. They are rather expensive(Pikes) and they really don't hit that hard.

It's more a psychological weapon more than anything else. They are murder against light cavalry/infantry, but they actually don't do very well against heavy cavalry.


As for Brets, lets not be kidding ourself here, they are an all cavalry army, and these are already very good. Add in dirt cheap knights(more or less) and a bucket full of special rules that goes a long way to counter most of the traditional drawbacks of heavy cavalry(ignore armour save weapons and lack of ranks).

As was said, if you got a decent number of lances, it's a lot like point and click. Not that it's an automatic win, but they are certainly one of the easier armies out there to get to be really powerful.

Delicious Soy
07-06-2005, 13:54
How about people take some thing in their army other than knights? You know like their more numerous retainers? Crazy talk maybe, but sometimes a balanced army is fun.

flain
07-06-2005, 14:03
A friend of mine is doing that now as the bretonians got too boring too play. He had 3-4 9 men lances, 2 6 men lances and some archers and characters (usually, BSB, lord and 2 damsels). It was very boring too play against (you knew which unit would die next turn). Only the SLayer army could win, but then, there is some flaming about that list too.

Now he is putting peasants in his army to make it more competitive! when you have to put down bad units to make your army competitive then something is wrong IMO.

Delicious Soy
07-06-2005, 14:29
The problem is people can't see the fun i having their peasants getting slaughtered. Whe I come to making a Brettonnian army, there will be plenty of opportunity for that :p.

Lady Bastet
07-06-2005, 14:32
The Men at Arms models have made me laugh out loud, and not in a good way, Archers are poor models too. I cannot blame someone for having an army of Knights.

6th and Final Champion
07-06-2005, 14:48
I can.

Elite armies which depend on kills in combat to win are horrible against Brets(i.e. Chaos). No attacks back=Loss of combat.

thecuckoo
07-06-2005, 15:12
I'm glad it's not just me who thinks Brets are horrible. but then again I've felt this way since 5th Edt.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the army list is utterly broken. Balance ? Don't be silly.

I was surprised that when 6th came out GW did absolutely nothing to sort out this wretched piece of lopsided nonesense. In fact, they made it worse. Why did they feel that the army needed a war machine ?

There is so much dairy in that list I think it would be better if all the Bret knigts rode cows.

The fact that as a cavalry army, they should be good at it is not in question. They should - it is their role in life. But to create this superiority artificially through the use of more special rules than an "how to build an aircraft carrier from knotted string" instruction book is pretty silly.

Lady Bastet
07-06-2005, 15:25
The best way to avoid cheese in my opinion is to steer clear of “free” abilities. Warhammer 40k made the same mistakes with the rules for certain Space Marine Chapters.

The Blessing is such a rule- it has advantages and disadvantages, yet in the hands of a skilled player the latter need not apply.

I do like the army list itself however...

Eldacar
07-06-2005, 16:04
The Blessing is such a rule- it has advantages and disadvantages, yet in the hands of a skilled player the latter need not apply.
I haven't read up on the Bretonnian rules recently, so forgive me if I miss something. But the only disadvantage I can see in the Bretonnian Blessing is losing the first turn. Which, since the larger proportion of the army is mounted, doesn't mean much, since they move fast enough that it doesn't matter against most armies.

Lady Bastet
07-06-2005, 17:08
One can argue that the inability to decline challenges is in its own way a weakness.

I have seen a Blood Dragon player exploit this with the Cursed Shield and Blade Master bloodline power in order to exploit this in the extreme.

Wez
07-06-2005, 17:24
One can argue that the inability to decline challenges is in its own way a weakness.

I have seen a Blood Dragon player exploit this with the Cursed Shield and Blade Master bloodline power in order to exploit this in the extreme.

You can decline challenges, you just lose the blessing, so in effect you're the same as the opponent, seeing as he didn't even have the blessing to begin with. Were you unable to refuse challenges completely, then it'd be better imo.

-Wez

Lady Bastet
07-06-2005, 17:30
What I meant to say was that they are somewhat bound by it, they have a lack of Ward saves and some magic items that stop working when they loose the blessing.

I do however agree with you, if a Blood Dragon will not decline a challenge then neither should be Bretonnian Knight.

LaughinGremlin
07-06-2005, 19:33
Let's not forget to tell those unfamiliar with pikemen, that pikemen fight in 4 ranks when receiving a charge, and they fight in 3 ranks when they successfully charge.

I think that 2 of the pikemen "regiments of reknown" are awesome special choices in an Empire army, and can be a "mainstay" -- not just inserted when one knows he's facing Brets. Two pikemen units flanked by other Imperial infantry blocks that can have "flanker detachments" can be very daunting for chargers.

Crazy Harborc
07-06-2005, 19:39
Normally, I deploy my Brets back from the 12 inch line. It usually herlps to prevent most of an opponents shooters from doing so without moving first. That is the worst part of going second to gain the blessing...........the opponent's free round of shooting first.

Galonthar
07-06-2005, 19:55
Let's not forget to tell those unfamiliar with pikemen, that pikemen fight in 4 ranks when receiving a charge, and they fight in 3 ranks when they successfully charge.



ok now....
could sb plz tell me ALL about pike special abilities.... I`m losing track of `em now...

I allways thought it strange that there was no bonus against cav for pikes,...
but now it seems there IS,.. :eyebrows: ...and for I hate facing every form of cav. I`d like to know all about `em

and (to prevent any copyright crap) could sb plz tell me where to find those rules in the rule book? (I`ve never found `em... guess I didn`t look good enough)

anarchistica
07-06-2005, 23:34
Just get the DOW PDF on the GW site.

In short: Two-handed, Fight in four ranks, +1S vs. chargers with US2+, strike first (but after magic items/abilities). These only work if charged in the front.

taer
08-06-2005, 03:27
Lets not forget, that while the all cav. Brettonian army is rather an easy army to get the hang of quickly, it is rather one dimensional (ie, point and shoot) and very easy to predict. This aspect alone makes the army fall a few notches when you start playing against skilled opponents, as they know what you are gonna do, and how to deal with it, and you have less choice because you can't effectively do much else.

Kasrkin
08-06-2005, 11:13
I think Bretonnians have a bad reputation because there are so many players around who only want to win, which is a shame. The all cavalry is boring to play against, and it seems to go against the fluff to me. If each knight maintains a small army of men-at-arms, then why don't they bring them to the field?

In my army I always take one unit of non-knights for every unit of knights or knightly characters. For example, my Paladin brings 20 of his men-at-arms, and the leading Knight of the Realm has gathered 10 of his peasant archers (who have a full command by the way, because they would proudly display their knight's colours, right?). I like it this way, it gives variety to play against, it fits the fluff, and it gives me cool models to paint (I like all of the Bretonnian figures except for the Questing Knights. This is the first army I have painted which has not made me feel bored...).

During a game I think they are great, too. Knights Errant make me laugh- point them towards the biggest, baddest enemy unit on the field and go for it. Ideas about 'combat resolution' and 'outnumbering' don't matter, because you get to do a glorious charge whilst shouting out "have at you! ha HA!".

Then the general makes a beeline for the enemy general for a challenge to single combat. If the enemy is on a monster of some kind, all the better- more glory! "In the name of the Lady, I challenge thee, foul creature!". Naturally, you get squished, but that just adds to the fun of it.

6th and Final Champion
08-06-2005, 15:00
See, now I wouldnt min playnig against that army because its fluffy. You have a reason for everything. Unlike every other Bretonnian army I've seen which is just "Hmm I wanna win sooooo ILL GO ALL KNIGHTS!!!".

BullBuchanan
08-06-2005, 18:27
I think Brets get a lot of flak when they really shouldn't. There seems to be a general objection to humans, that haven't sold their souls to chaos, being able to win combats. Brets really can't go offensive magically at 2K, their shooting is more a novelty than any serious threat as the trebuchet takes up a rare choice.


Umm ********....My opponents 2k Bret List has more magic than my 2k High Elf List which has a archmage and 3 lvl 2's.....the archers are gonna take out1 or 2 of my best unit each round if in the open....mine may take 1 of his out per game and they cost 6 points more a model I think....

BullBuchanan
08-06-2005, 18:28
I haven't read up on the Bretonnian rules recently, so forgive me if I miss something. But the only disadvantage I can see in the Bretonnian Blessing is losing the first turn. Which, since the larger proportion of the army is mounted, doesn't mean much, since they move fast enough that it doesn't matter against most armies.

They dont lose the turn actually, they just lose the chance of going first.

taer
08-06-2005, 22:16
Actually, they lose the roll to see who gets to decide on who goes first. The enemy can still take the second turn if they wish.

samw
09-06-2005, 00:05
Umm ********....My opponents 2k Bret List has more magic than my 2k High Elf List which has a archmage and 3 lvl 2's.....the archers are gonna take out1 or 2 of my best unit each round if in the open....mine may take 1 of his out per game and they cost 6 points more a model I think....

Really? How? If he's taking the Fey Enchantress perhaps but special characters tend to break trends. Otherwise:

-He has no bound spells, unlike I think EVERY other army bar dwarfs.
-He has to take a BSB aswell, where the hell does he find the points?

Of course it's POSSIBLE to make magic heavy Brets at 2K, however I can't believe anyone would. You would have major problems due to the obvious weaknesses, especially compared to other Bret systems. He has lowish leadership (8 is hardly great) and much reduced fighting ability. In the same way you COULD make a VC list with only one level one necromancer, but no-one ever does.

Also neither of the two sub lists, RAF and Errantry, can take a Prophetess at 2K or at all respectively. Hence both are magically retarded.

P.S. I agree HE archers are much overpriced, but that's not the fault of the Bretonnian ones! Perhaps the three points of leadership meaning they won't panic at the first loud bang? :p

P.P.S. to those who laughed when I mentioned elven shooting ability, I obviously imagined the three or four RBT's that used to turn my chaos warriors into pin cushions, or the forty or so RXB shots that are regularly thrown against any troop I field ith less than a 2+ armour save. sorry. :rolleyes:
Of course it won't work so well against knights, I was speaking generally, not specifically.

Crazy Harborc
09-06-2005, 02:06
Experience has taught me to insist on 2500 to 3000pt games when I push Brets. With 3000 I can have at least three "high speed express trains" bowling over an opponent's units. There is nothing like the thrill of a unit of ten tooled up Knights Errant charging and then overrunning a 20 body Chaos Warriors (of Khorne) unit.

TheKid
22-11-2005, 02:35
I play as Bretonnia and the magic is more for protection than offense. I only have one damsel in my 1k army and she keeps my knights alive long enough to slay the enemy, with a little help from my archers. :-)

gorenut
22-11-2005, 02:45
I really like the idea of Brets and have tried twice to embrace them.. but it really came down to the fact that they lack the variety I look for in an army. I like their models and fluff (except for how poorly they treat the peasants), but all cav armies with just CHARGE! as the main tactic is not my cup of tea. If I went all cav, I would prefer to play a Dark Elf force consisting of mostly Dark Riders.

MisterHeavy
24-11-2005, 03:25
I play an MSU errantry list and I find my damsels very important. The damsels aren't there to damage their fighting force, but rather to damage the enemy screening and flanking units. Take out fast cav, panic detachments, and in general, cause as much damage to the little units that cause your lines to become disorganized.

On top of that, playing an MSU list (5-6 man units) allows you to send in 1 or 2 small, sacrifical lances to spring whatever traps might be left over after your magic takes its toll. Once the traps are sprung, and the enemy line is disorganized, send in the other 5-7 units, plus pegasi, to crush whatever remains.

Lathaine
24-11-2005, 06:54
Hmmm, actually the last UK GT had plenty of Brets in it and five of the top ten armies were Brets including the winner. Brets are a nasty army at a tourney form whta I've seen but only if you bring their two sub lists RAF and errantry since the main list can be easily beaten by a powergamer with experience.

As for the commenst on Bret magic and shooting not being good. Brets are best at low level defensive magic or at high level offensive magic using life and heaven lores. If put together well though the force can be really killer as I have outmagiced many so called magic armies before but the lack of bound spells and a truly nasty arcane item limit Bret magic abilities, true. Shootings not bad either if you use a 20-30 man unit of skirmishing archers. I once saw a Keeeper of Secrets killed by such a unit when they stood and shot at it. The trebs also pretty good and deals well with ranked infantry units esp. elite infantry and I can bring two generally considering Bret rare choices are limited anyway. Another viable altrenative to point and click is the RAF, which despite its insane power actaully requires a lot of thought and tactics to pull of well from my experiece, and the MSU lances that use the great ignore terrain magic items Brets have to pull of all kinds of great strategies.

As for Brets being too powerful, it depends really. If you know you're up against them they are easily countered if you you know what your doing. Its just that this isn't always the case. However, even then a good general can deal with them as long as they aren't playing Chaos. I swear Brets are the anti-Chaos I have never seen a Bret lose against them and I once went up against a "from the wastes" chaos army in SoC with my Brets and killed 8k in Chaos while losing 1k form my 2k force. Chaos aside Brets are very beatable though. The only problem comes from cheap powergamer alternate armies such as the RAF and errantry, which are used exclusively at tournies.

As for the humans quip, its in Liber Chaotica that the Bretonni were the most powerful tribe in the wastes before they got bored with the Chaos wastes and tried to be a powerful army away from the Chao gods. So we aren't quite human, just read the fluff on the Chosen knights of the Lady, I mean Grail knights.;)