PDA

View Full Version : Ork Empires



malika
06-06-2005, 14:42
I know that the Orks create something which could be considered as an empire, these things rise up and fall all the time, Im curious are these empires like 'meeting places' for the Orks? So that for example an empire located in the far north could have Orks who travelled from the other side of the galaxy (Eastern Fringe for example)?

venusianfurs
06-06-2005, 15:19
Yes. How many more letters are required to post? This should do.

Typheron
06-06-2005, 15:35
normally ork empires are created by a very strong and big warboss beating up all the other warbosses in the area and making there clans part of his own. Normally this is limited to the local systems but in a case such as the 3rd invasion of armageddon orks flocked to the area in order to fight. For orks a fight is like a big party and they will travel some distance to get to it if its gonna be a good one.

So if the warboss empire was readying for a big fight or was well known for good brawling then perhaps orks would flock to it to fight.

malika
06-06-2005, 16:01
Would this also mean that Freebooterz or Pirates would just show up there, trying to gain whatever they can get?

Sir_Turalyon
06-06-2005, 17:35
Normally this is limited to the local systems but in a case such as the 3rd invasion of armageddon orks flocked to the area in order to fight


What you speak about is WAAAGH, a big war / migration of orks drawing them from fight and wide to fight together and conquer new worlds. Ork Empires are areas of space which have been dominated by orks for generations, sometimes millenia; they are often much bigger then single systems; I think saying "as big as Tau empire" would be good guess . Little is known about them (as explorers and armies tend to never return from there), except that orks liveng there are bigger and more violent thenussual orks; Imperial sholar theorize that regular boyz from central systems of empire may be as strong as skarboyz; there is no telling how powerful must be ruling warbosses from there.

This lack of information suggests that there is little contact with these orks - perhaps they consider humanity to puny to fight against and spend all time fighting each other.

Bmaxwell
06-06-2005, 19:52
well orks before the hersy used to get as big ad dreads now they don't casue there hunted down before they can get taht big but in ork controled space who knows

whats the max size for a ork anyway?

malika
06-06-2005, 19:54
Where did you get that info from? Orks the size of Dreadnoughts before the Heresy? :wtf:

Typheron
06-06-2005, 20:13
old 2nd ed fluff, orks used to get hugem just look at the size of Gazskull hes damn near a dreddy.

Easy E
06-06-2005, 23:06
The uber boss of these empire often make up their own titles. My favorite is the Arch-Arsonist. That just oozes style.

The back of the Ork codex IIRC does mention that the Orks currently encountered by the Imperium are the smaller sized ork tribes that can't compete with the orks closer to the center of Ork space. Therefore, the Orks in the center of Ork controlled territory are assumed to be rather large and tough.

Dakkagor
07-06-2005, 12:59
The back of the Ork codex IIRC does mention that the Orks currently encountered by the Imperium are the smaller sized ork tribes that can't compete with the orks closer to the center of Ork space. Therefore, the Orks in the center of Ork controlled territory are assumed to be rather large and tough.

Smaller sized? The tribes that attacked armageddon had vast numbers.

There are two big units of ork society above tribe and below clan. They are enclaves and empires.

Empires are about the size of the current Tau sphere but much more densely populated. Each will be ruled by a single ork warlord (like the Arch Arsonist of Charadon) who is the boss. These enclaves will be linked with trade routes ect, and have definitive lines of communication. They will launch WAAAGHS like the Imperium launch crusades, with loosely defined objectives (go burn down this planet, or kick in those marines) For an example of this, look at the loss of Badlanding and the subsequent attack on Rynns world. These WAAAAGHS will be launched by ork warbosses who serve the warlord.

Enclaves are probably what occur when ork empires get to big. We are talking millions of billions of orks in a single sector of space, and all the boyz being spawned as skarboyz. The warbosses leading these guys must be the size of a dread at least. However, these orks are to busy fighting each other for resources, so they rarely make contact with other races. These enclaves could be viewed as what the galaxy would look like if the Orks "won" eternal war conducted by high density ork populations.

However, Hive Fleet Leviathan has had a large segment of its fleet tricked into hitting one of these enclaves (the empire of Octavius) . A hulk infested with stealers was pushed into ork space, and ork looters becam infected with genestealers. While the orks quickly crushed the infection, it would seem that it was enough and large enough to lure many hive fleets into the area, and the result is some of the most brutal close combat moshing ever seen. And whoever wins will be very big indeed. . .

malika
07-06-2005, 13:14
Okay this is all very interesting sounding...giant Orks...why am I getting vision of using a WFB Giant model to convert an Ork Warlord :evilgrin:

Is it possible for Enclaves to exist within an Ork Empire?

Dakkagor
07-06-2005, 14:44
Probably not. The way the psychic gestalt field (that which pushes orks to become bigger in large numbers) would make it an all or nothing affair.

And you can use a giant for a warboss, but only if all the boyz use the warboss model! WAAAGH da uge' zoggin orks!

Imagine a dreadnought. . .

salty
07-06-2005, 14:55
According to 3rd edition fluff in the codex, Orks literally thrive on fighting. Also, the term "strength in numbers" is extremely apt. The more Orks in the vicinity, the more fights break out, and teh alrger the Orks become. They give off their "spores", and these create larger, new Orks. This keeps on going until, as has been said, your bog-standard Ork boy is the size of a Skarboy or even Nob from a smaller Empire.

These Orks are also more likely to prefer combat; more Orky, makes you tougher (The more HtH fighting they do, the more slabs of muscle they put on, especially if they are preparing to challenge a Boss). Smaller orks from smaller Empires, while still easily strong enough to rip a man limb from limb with their bare hands, often prefer vehicles and guns over combat.

Salty :)

Rich
07-06-2005, 15:31
There has to be an upper limit on Ork growth though I think the size of a fantasy giant is pushing it somewhat. Dreadnought sized is about the largest I can envisage Orks getting. However, that still gives them enough brute strength to smash their way through a tank hull, so its damn impressive.

I hope the Orks beat Leviathan - they are, after all, of the human galaxy and therefore infinately preferable to the 'nids. I also think that Orks are stronger in many respects, although their lack or organisation might be their downfall. Over all, I think the best way by far to defeat the nids is to take them on in space, and this is the one area that orks do not excel at. Nonetheless, I can see the 'nids having their backsides handed to them by the Orks, and whether that will work out well for the Imperium in the end is hard to say; certainly, any victory against the nids is excellent news, but if it began a massive Ork Waaaghh! that would be rather unfortunate!

salty
07-06-2005, 16:31
I can envisage Orks beating Leviathan, as at close range, their ships have MASSIVE amounts of firepower. Plus, even if they got boarded things couldn't get much more chaotic in the first place, and, if push comes to shove, there's always that big red ramming button...

Salty :)

Xisor
07-06-2005, 16:52
I think the Ork-Nid fight here has the potential to be one of the greatest 'battles' described in 40k.

An Ork Empire vs Tyranid Hive Fleet. It doesn't get much better than that! Could be an excuse to releasea full list for an Ork Empire, what a nice idea for konvershuns!

Xisor

salty
07-06-2005, 16:54
Or Ork-Nid Hunters :evilgrin:

Salty :)

Sir_Turalyon
07-06-2005, 18:25
Since the RT times we are being told that "if Orks ever unite galaxy will tremble" and stuff.

They never have been interested in uniting before and these hypothetical huge orks from Empires are not even interested in leaving their domains - as orks fight for fun I assume they find humies, eldar etc not funny compared to bashing one another. BUT, what will happen if there will be a worthy foe? Huge fleets of Tyranids coming to consume the galaxy, C'tan led Necrons starting full scale war of Chaos powers finaly going to engulf everything?

It sounds believable that is someone will really threaten the galaxy, orks will consider it challenge interesting enough to unite and stomp such a promising opponent flat. Seeing as orks are late legace of Old Ones - perhaps engineered to survive after their fall - they may well be galactic immunity system. Usualy too unruly to unite and wipe out Old One's creatures, but in time of danger interested and focused enough to defeat anything that could wipe out Old One's creatures...

Minister
07-06-2005, 18:50
Ragna-Ork.

Easy E
08-06-2005, 01:04
Smaller sized? The tribes that attacked armageddon had vast numbers.

Let me clarify. I mean the orks themselves are smaller in stature. It has nothing to do with their numbers.


Since the RT times we are being told that "if Orks ever unite galaxy will tremble" and stuff.

They never have been interested in uniting before and these hypothetical huge orks from Empires are not even interested in leaving their domains - as orks fight for fun I assume they find humies, eldar etc not funny compared to bashing one another. BUT, what will happen if there will be a worthy foe? Huge fleets of Tyranids coming to consume the galaxy, C'tan led Necrons starting full scale war of Chaos powers finaly going to engulf everything?

It sounds believable that is someone will really threaten the galaxy, orks will consider it challenge interesting enough to unite and stomp such a promising opponent flat. Seeing as orks are late legace of Old Ones - perhaps engineered to survive after their fall - they may well be galactic immunity system. Usualy too unruly to unite and wipe out Old One's creatures, but in time of danger interested and focused enough to defeat anything that could wipe out Old One's creatures...

That is potentially the coolest idea I have heard in a long time.

I seem to recall reading that the orks were migrating as they were being pushed ahead of the Tyranid advance. This migration sounds very reminiscent of Ostrogoths/Visigoths (and others) being pushed out of the asian steppe but other more ferocious tribes. These migrations led to the end of the Western Roman Empire. Does the same fate await the Imperium of Man?

venusianfurs
08-06-2005, 15:10
No. How many letters are required for a post? This should do.

Typheron
08-06-2005, 17:19
I would not think so, the orks are liable to start pushing back on the 'nids and the imperium at the same time. As has already been said the orks look for a challenge in what they fight and the 'Nids pose more of a challenge than the imperium, although that is dependant on the view of the orks in question. Gazskull (or however you spell it) once commented on how Yarrick was such a great opponent to fight and how he let him escape from a battle so he could face him again because of this. So orks dont just put good fighting down to plain face to face fighting, they like the cunning too.


Orks see threats as tests from there gods Gork and Mork, thats probably what they would think of the nids, another test to prove there orkyness.

salty
08-06-2005, 19:48
When people say "Orks" everyone automatically thinks "dumb, brutish, primitiv, crude, like combat".

But, as Typheron says, they are also particularly cunning, and want to enjoy a fight almost as much as they want to win it. As that Inquisitor in the 3rd edition Codex says; "You know not the valour of the Orks; they believe the more enemies there are, the more glory they will win, and the more plunder they will secure". Or something like that. Fighting Nids would be tough as nails. Hence, Orks would flcok there, and relish the fights until they started getting bored and thinking "This is too easy".

Then they would turn to something else. Such is the way with Orks. They may be cunning but they have short attention spans :D

Salty :)

IceFire
08-06-2005, 20:14
someone mentioned necrons being a challenge to the Orks earlier, and i read once a really long, really indepth history of the 40kverse (weather official or somthingsomeone peiced togther i dont know) and when the necrons were around for the first time fighting the Old Ones, the Krork were invented to fight the Necrons. The Krork become the Ork. So maybe at some genetic level they are looking for a fight against teh necrons?

Also i heard that the reason the Necrons look like skellitons is to send a universal message that they are "Death." The Orks dont have a "Death" god like most other races, so they arnt afraid of them.

Not sure what my point was, just thought it was an interesting note...

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-06-2005, 20:31
Orks do fear death in a way, they would rather run away from a fight they can't win, so they can regroup, reproduce, and then fight the thing again.

You're right about the Krork being created to defeat the Necrons. The Old Ones saw that the dominant races in the galaxy [mainly Necrontyr] were badly adapted [like Tau] so they took a shot at making a good race [Eldar, amongst others like the K'nid, and maybe the H'rud, and maybe hundreds of others] the Eldar beat up the Necrontyr, the Necrontyr turn to the C'tan, become the Necrons, then beat the hell out of the Eldar. The Eldar conciousness forms gods, one of which [Vaul] makes wraithlords and wraithguards, who beat up the Necrons, he also makes the blackstone fortresses, and sends the Great Void Dragon into a looong sleep. The Eldar turn from working for the Slann to worshiping thier gods. The Slann think that the Eldar didn't work, so they create the Krork. Now, the Krork are stupid, warring beasts, or at least, that's how the Slann created them. Unfortunately the Krork spawned their own gods, and learnt to be cunning, over throw the Slann, become trhe Orks, and try and beat up everyone, including each other.

That's what I read at least.

Dakkagor
09-06-2005, 00:42
Orks do fear death in a way, they would rather run away from a fight they can't win, so they can regroup, reproduce, and then fight the thing again.

Not even that. Theres this glorious bit of fiction in one of the old 2nd ed rule books describing a boss goff ork view of the second armageddon war. And he wasn't scared of dying. . .he was lonely. All his drinking buddies had kaked it. One had been run over a big tank. Another had be crushed by a helsreach docking crane, and one had been killed by old one eye yarrick himself.

So what happens when a mob breaks is its no longer fun to fight, because all your mates just bit it, and it was only really fun to break guardsmen skulls when Barrik or Nogzurd was laughing as you did it. . .

malika
09-06-2005, 00:46
That story almost brought a tear to my eye (seriously)...it kind of shows that Orks too can feel sadness! I always liked the old Ork background in which the Orks ate all the fungus which made the brainsboys smart...without the fungus they became dumb and ended up being the Snotlings or something in those lines...pure melodramaticness...genious! :evilgrin:


Orks do fear death in a way, they would rather run away from a fight they can't win, so they can regroup, reproduce, and then fight the thing again.

Dying in combat is the greatest thing that could happen to an Ork, retreating is considered un-orky, and uhm reproduce? Ork reproduction happens after an Ork dies..the whole spore thing

Typheron
09-06-2005, 08:16
the thing about orks and fear of dieing is that they have none whatsoever. They know that when they die gork and mork just spit them back out into a new body and they can get on with things again. in many ways this is similar to the Eldar view of things before the nightbringer fight.


"ifs we win we win, ifs we die were dead and it dont matter and if we lose we can just come back for another go" or something to that effect.

retreating is considered un-orky to my knowlege (i cant remeber any quotes that say that), they will do it if the situation is, as has already been pointed out, no longer fun for them to continue fighting. I would think they they would fall back as it was tactically wise and re-group with more orks for another go at the target.


The Eldar turn from working for the Slann to worshiping thier gods. The Slann think that the Eldar didn't work, so they create the Krork. Now, the Krork are stupid, warring beasts, or at least, that's how the Slann created them. Unfortunately the Krork spawned their own gods, and learnt to be cunning, over throw the Slann, become trhe Orks, and try and beat up everyone, including each other.


not exactly, the krork were created at the same time as many of the other races to fight the rising necron threat. the krork were to be the warriors, the jokerio to be the builders of what was necicarry and i assume the other races to furfill other roles as was required. once the war was over due to the arrival of the enslaver plague, the necrons going into stasis and the slann dieing out the orks just kept doing what they were created for. To fight a war.

Lord Lucifer
09-06-2005, 15:47
Firstly adressing the 'Ork Empire' question:

Orkish 'empires' are not set things, they last as long as they last, which is usually until something goes wrong and everyone either a)bickers and squabbles, b)stomp the everloving snot out of whichever neighbour is nearest at hand and spoiling for a good scrap, attracting the attentions of a full-scale military response that eradicates the Orkish presence, or c) everyone figures 'Bugger this for a lark' and goes their seperate ways.

Orks rule through force of personality rather than any strictly observed organisation, and it works remarkably well for them.


The mass-migration of Orks comes in three distinct forms.
Firstly is the inherant wander-lust that all Orks possess, and none more keenly than the Snakebites of the Tribe. Orks love wandering off to see what's just over the next asteroid belt or revolving around the next star, and then either eating it or giving it a good thump, dependant on its' nature. This helps the Orks spread throughout the galaxy, and prosper as they do.

Secondly there's the unconscious call that attracts Orks to other Orks, the 'Waaagh!', a sort of latent telepathy/psychic adrenaline that unknowingly guides Orks to the greatest population centres of other Orks. Think of it as an invisible green astronomicon and you've about got it ;)
This helps form the Waaagh! Ork, and is the way Ork Empires form

The last form of mass migration is the WAAAGH! Ork! itself, where enough Orks (and associated Orkoids) gather to kick-start the power of their psychic adrenaline, pump it into overdrive, and fill them with the irresistable need to find some new heads to break. Much like a horde of homicidal lemmings




A quick note on Ork society, a group of Orks is a Tribe, not a Clan.
Ork Clans are social groupings within the Tribe. Just like in the real world, using an example everyone can understand as everyone's been to High School I suspect... picture an Ork army/society as your High School student body. That's a 'Tribe'. The Clans (Goff, Evil Sunz, Bad Moons, Deathskulls, Blood Axes, Snakebites) are the 'Skaters', 'Goths', 'Jocks', 'Geeks' etc. of WAAAGH! High

The Freebooterz are the High School drop-outs :p



As for Ork size...
Orks grow indefinately throughout their life. If they do not fall ill, die through other means (boltguns to the head, for example), and manage to stay fully nourished etc, they could grow to be as large as their surroundings and resources will support.
However, as Orks grow older, they reach a certain point where it gets a bit much, the Orkoid techno-gene probably burns out, and they regress to a purely animal state, at which time they're able to breed naturally without relying on Sporing (which is damn useful for a nomadic race that spends a great deal of time drifting through empty space on completely sterile space hulks)
Get Orks in one place long enough, and there'll be a breeding colony nearby soon enough


So, I doubt you'd find many Orks any bigger than a Dred that stays proper Orky


Ork size has NOTHING to do with the number of Orks nearby. They grow in natural ways, by consuming food to use in cellular growth (mitosis... or was it miosis?), and exercise to strengthen the growth
All fighting does is give Orks exercise and entertainment.

And the Ork leaders... size is ONE part of it. Most Orky disputes are settled physically, meaning the most dangerous Ork is boss. Not necessarily the biggest, although it helps.
Likewise, a particularly cunning Ork can rise to power. Cunning makes you dangerous, and if there's one thing Orks respect, it's a more dangerous Ork :evilgrin:



Orks are not being 'pushed back/into Imperial space by a Hive Fleet'
Orks are EVERYWHERE.
The Imperium, millenia ago, sent a probe into the deepest reaches of space to navigate and report any feedback. The sad news for the Imperium is the probe is still going, and the one constant it has found is the presence of Orks.


Orks, the reason to play 40K :D
-Tuffgitt Badskaga, scourge of Blood Angel beekeez

Dakkagor
09-06-2005, 19:50
alot of that is old fluff, and supplanted by newer matierial (I don't agree with all the new material, mind you, but some of it makes alot of sense)

I think we shoudl wait for the ork dex before continuing this argument, so I'll see lord Lucifer in 2035 when it finally comes out! :cries:

Illuminarch
09-06-2005, 21:27
Not even that. Theres this glorious bit of fiction in one of the old 2nd ed rule books describing a boss goff ork view of the second armageddon war. And he wasn't scared of dying. . .he was lonely. All his drinking buddies had kaked it. One had been run over a big tank. Another had be crushed by a helsreach docking crane, and one had been killed by old one eye yarrick himself.

So what happens when a mob breaks is its no longer fun to fight, because all your mates just bit it, and it was only really fun to break guardsmen skulls when Barrik or Nogzurd was laughing as you did it. . .

Indeed, "Grishnakh At the Bridge" is probably the single greatest piece of short story fluff GW ever produced, and I say that as a consumnate Ork hater. However, while that Goff Nob was depressed at the loss of his drinking buddies and disappointed in his boyz, it showed quite clearly that most of the other Orks were quite demoralized, even afraid, because they had gotten pounded repeatedly by the Imperial reinforcements. Maybe they weren't afraid of death, per se, since that's "something that happens to other Orks", maybe they were just afraid of defeat. But I don't buy that line either, as that seems also to be a very human line of thinking, especially for impetuous, rash fight-happy adolescents that Orks so often resemble.

In any case, I've never heard anything about Orks getting to be the size of Dreadnaughts on anything but the most unusual of circumstances, nor are Ork Empires nigh-invulnerable bastions of war lust waiting to consume the galaxy, as the successful camapaigns against Charadon and the "Wheel of Fire" attest to the contrary. I also think its silly and unsubstantied to suggest that Orks will just keep growing (in stature and strength) as long as there are more Orks and more fighting - they are after all biological creatures, limited by food they need to consume and the space they have to live in. Anyway, does anyone remember the little passages and scraps of Techno-Biologis analysis from 2nd and even 3rd edition, talking about the role of algae in the Ork metabolism and cellular structure? I even remember a hint that they were as much plant as they were animal, and thus was caused to wonder if the old Anti-Plant warheads would be a useful toxin against them :)

Typheron
09-06-2005, 22:30
i think the ork the size of a dreaddy was mentioned in the piece of fluff where the Emperor was nearly strangeled, although again my memory is hazy ont his one.

Illuminarch
09-06-2005, 22:39
i think the ork the size of a dreaddy was mentioned in the piece of fluff where the Emperor was nearly strangeled, although again my memory is hazy ont his one.

One should be skeptical of those sources as well, as they can be seen (retroactively) as being drawn from heroic legend. Consider that the Horus Heresy story has Sanguinius lifting a a Bloodthirster and then breaking his back over his knee. Now I'm not entirely against the idea of a Primarch being strong enough, especially in armor, to heft up a giant Greater Daemon, but snapping its spine over his relatively tiny knee is another matter.

Goes along the same lines of how certain vehicles and people (great leaders, Terminators) are much larger and more disproportionately scaled in the artwork than they are in reality.

Typheron
10-06-2005, 08:33
I dunno, a lot of the fluff can be viewed like that but im fairly sure a priumarch would be uber enough to trash a bloodthirster in that manor and in the same way i could see it possable to get a ork the size of a dreaddy. But thats another discussion in itself.

As has already been said they become bigger and nastyer the more they fight so assuming the ork survived for a long time it could concevably reach the size of a dreaddy.

Although in saying that its all down to how long a Ork would normally live, what is a "natural" lifespan of a Ork, assuming they dont die in a fight?

sulla
10-06-2005, 21:11
old 2nd ed fluff, orks used to get hugem just look at the size of Gazskull hes damn near a dreddy.

2nd edition Ghazhkull is smaller than the current Ork boyz!

Illuminarch
11-06-2005, 04:30
I dunno, a lot of the fluff can be viewed like that but im fairly sure a priumarch would be uber enough to trash a bloodthirster in that manor and in the same way i could see it possable to get a ork the size of a dreaddy. But thats another discussion in itself.

I'm not saying a Primarch couldn't beat a Bloodthirster in hand to hand, what I find hard to believe is him picking it up and breaking it's back over his relatively tiny knee.

Lord Balor
11-06-2005, 06:42
@Lord Lucifer: That has to be one of the most insightful post i've ever read about orks. It's good to see that Quality posts made it through the fall ;)

Now i'm going to go against the band wagon that the the Empire of Octavius is going to give Hive Fleet Leviathan a good smashing. What we have here are the two most biologicallly tailored species about to clash in what could be the greatest battle ever fought in the history of the 40K universe.

The Orks, a race utterly untouched by the fear of death (lately an event attributed to the Nightbringer :eyebrows: ) who going by both the 2nd ed brainboy theory and 3-4 ed Old Ones have artificial DNA strands resulting in the innate knowledge of warefare/technology/society etc. They are consumed by the pursuit of power and warfare, constantly searching to sate their battlelust. Such one tracked minds resulted in the birth of unconscious entities of Grok and Mork, Gods of War and cunning. The unusual ork psyche attracts them to the great armies of warlords and battle and unites them through the Waaagh (lasting until the orks are defeated or there are no more eneies available to smash). The ork reproduction via spores ensures a constant supply of boys, requiring however the right conditions to nuture them.

On very similar lines are The Tyranids, a consciousness that has no concept of emotion whatsoever, and has within it the greatest diversity unaturally possibly thorugh the assimilation of DNA itself. Unlike the Orks, their genetic tailoring is forever changing and best explained byt these three words: Adapt, Evolve, Overcome. Being of one mind, they have no need for innate knowledge as the creatures of the Hive Mind have but a single purpose. The Hive Mind is able to cast a shadow and block out even the light of the emperor, making it possible the greatest psychic entity 'alive'. They are without number as a single hive fleet consists of millions of craft, each home to billions of creatures (Millions of billions :eek: ). The tyranids do not need to reproduce, but harvast all biomatter reincorperating losses as well as feeding on the entire planet they invade. They leave behind nothing but a lifeless rock and are the perfect super predator, excelling above all others at close combat. In less than 250 years, Billions of guardsmen, entire space marine chapters and even a craftsword have all fallen bfore the Hive Minds first two probes (Behemoth & Kraken). The question is, will the Orks fare any better?

Now being an old Tyranid player from second edition, i admit being biased in my analysis, but there can be seen many similarities between the two artifically engineered species. Personally i believe the worst foe for the orks to run up against would be the Tyranids as they loose the advantage of numbers and being the elite closecombat monsters they are. Most 'victories' against the Tyranids could not have been so without the firesupport of the Imperial warmachine adn something the Orks are found seriously wanting. However, the end result will most proberly leave Octavius victorious, but at what cost?

salty
11-06-2005, 11:55
@Lord Lucifer: I agree with everything you said there, except about Ork size not being determined by the proximity of other Orks. If you take this in its literal sense, then you are correct; just being aroundother Orks is not enough. However, in "Empires" with a large and dense concentration of Orks, rivalries are stronger, and there are more "tough" Orks to scrap with.

This leads to more instances of Orks building up extra slabs of muscle in order to challenge a rival. In a population billions, there will at least be several million Orks goig through this. Orks also grow/put on muscle when they are in a situation of constant conflict. Ork Empires are always arguing and fighting amongst themselves, with various tribes and clans fighting over teef and resources.

As such, indirectly, the population density of an Ork "Empire" does affect the growth rate of the Orks themselves.

And I have never heard anything about Orks being able to reproduce by normal means, since they are somewhat like "action man" down there ;)


@Lord Balor: It will definitely be a clash of the Titans, and I can see it going on for a long time. Both races can reproduce rapidly, and have massive hordes consisting of billions of troops. Both are combat specialists. Both live pretty much singularly to fight.

It won't be a decisive war, but it could stall the Nids long enough for the Imperium to find a way of mounting a serious defensive action against them.

Salty :)

Typheron
11-06-2005, 18:21
2nd edition Ghazhkull is smaller than the current Ork boyz!

im not being clear about that, i ment the current Ghazhkull model and the 2nd ed fluff about the ork that tried to throttel the Emperor.


I'm not saying a Primarch couldn't beat a Bloodthirster in hand to hand, what I find hard to believe is him picking it up and breaking it's back over his relatively tiny knee.

primarchs were uber but this is off topic so ill save it for another thread.

Lord Lucifer
12-06-2005, 03:02
@Lord Lucifer: I agree with everything you said there, except about Ork size not being determined by the proximity of other Orks. If you take this in its literal sense, then you are correct; just being aroundother Orks is not enough. However, in "Empires" with a large and dense concentration of Orks, rivalries are stronger, and there are more "tough" Orks to scrap with.

This leads to more instances of Orks building up extra slabs of muscle in order to challenge a rival. In a population billions, there will at least be several million Orks goig through this. Orks also grow/put on muscle when they are in a situation of constant conflict. Ork Empires are always arguing and fighting amongst themselves, with various tribes and clans fighting over teef and resources.

As such, indirectly, the population density of an Ork "Empire" does affect the growth rate of the Orks themselves.

And I have never heard anything about Orks being able to reproduce by normal means, since they are somewhat like "action man" down there ;)


Salty, the Ork size thing, I was disputing the point that you just disputed (just being around Orks doesn't make you bigger)
I agree, in smaller colonies of Orks where there aren't many Orks, something usually stunts their growth... that being hostile forces killing off most of them before they get a chance to be big :p

Larger populations are more secure, so the Orks live longer, giving them a chance to actually get bigger.
Although undoubtedly there will always be a maximum size that the Ork body can effectively support... the threshold would be greater than for humans, as the Orks are more durable and robust, but there WOULD be a maximum point that they could grow to without problems... and an Ork with problems doesn't last long. But this is an aside not directly related to your point
Bigger societies are more prosperous, allowing Orks to grow bigger, it's sensible and logical and what happens.

And the topic of Ork breeding was largely ignored in second ed. 40K, and in the recent editions of Warhammer Fantasy (I believe they had Orc Females in Fantasy, then that got dropped)
The Orks breed asexually, but at this point they're not all that Orky and don't really take any active roll in Ork society. They seperate themselves from it. As a rather unrelated aspect of the background, this dropped off the radar in 2nd ed.
The theories presented in the 3rd ed. Codex are subjective background, as they are presented as theories, and can be effectively explained away by the 1st/2nd ed. background... however, the breeding by sporing method CAN apply along with natural breeding without any real problems, makes more sense in the overall scheme of Orks (the two methods, occuring at different periods of time, solve each others problems admirably leading to the greatest Survivalist species in the universe). However, most importantly is the Sporing method helps explain something that was never fully explained in previous editions, yet always commented on, which is the fact that the presence of Orcs changes the ecology of a planet


The thing is the 1st/2nd, and the 3rd/4th ed. background can quite easily fit together near seamlessly, nothing really gets in the way of it.


Oh, and the 'action man' Orks?
You do realise that Orks are, and always have been, asexual/genderless right?
The natural reproduction occurs asexually once the Ork reaches sexual maturity, by which point they're not really all that Orky anymore (the technogene burns out, they regress, I suspect this means the technogene supresses sexual development of an Ork, all taken from 1st/2nd ed., and the sporing carries the technogene's information so is clearly governed by the technogene itself... see, it really fits quite well)

:)

Verm1s
12-06-2005, 14:51
But if orks are asexual, can they be said to reach sexual maturity? Reproductive maturity may be a more generalised, but more appropriate term. ;)
If the technogene 'burns out', why does that cause the regression? Most ork culture may be instinctual (i.e. controlled by genetic expression) to begin with (allowing newly-emerged orks to develop societies without older orks), but they're intelligent beings. Unless the 'burnt-out' ork is something like a mek who suddenly doesn't know how to build the boss a new gargant, I think most would simpy remember what it is to be an ork, and which end of the slugga to hold, etc.

Also, I'm going to take the side of the Hive Fleets too. I've read through the new codex, and the WD articles. Both agree that, in Phil Kelly's words (IIRC), 'the nids are getting big from eating their greens'.

salty
12-06-2005, 15:30
As Orks are asexual, what is the point of having anything down there? Hence they are like "action man" :D

And, forgive me for sounding like a complete n00b here, but what is this technogene (I wasn't around for 2nd edition and haven't heard of it).

Salty :)

Lord Lucifer
12-06-2005, 16:14
But if orks are asexual, can they be said to reach sexual maturity? Reproductive maturity may be a more generalised, but more appropriate term. ;)
If the technogene 'burns out', why does that cause the regression? Most ork culture may be instinctual (i.e. controlled by genetic expression) to begin with (allowing newly-emerged orks to develop societies without older orks), but they're intelligent beings. Unless the 'burnt-out' ork is something like a mek who suddenly doesn't know how to build the boss a new gargant, I think most would simpy remember what it is to be an ork, and which end of the slugga to hold, etc.

Fact: When Orks reach sexual maturity (sex meaning reproduction, otherwise I'd say intercourse or 'mating' :p), they regress into a feral or animalistic state.
Opinion: I suspect that it would be the technogene 'burning out' that does this, and it makes sense working with the other aspects of Orkoid background. The 'burn-out' could have a detrimental effect on the Orks' brain, much like certain processes have detrimental effects on our brains (strokes, alzheimers, etc.)
The regression exists, I'm just hazarding an explanation for it.



As Orks are asexual, what is the point of having anything down there? Hence they are like "action man"

And, forgive me for sounding like a complete n00b here, but what is this technogene (I wasn't around for 2nd edition and haven't heard of it).

Salty
That's the case. They're asexual, genderless, Ken Dolls.

The techno-gene is a symbiotic strain of Algal DNA that contains within it all the information necessary to tell Orks how to do things. A genetic memory.
It determines what Clan a given Ork will belong to/associate with. It determines their role in society (if the right thing manifests, an Ork will have an instinctive knowledge/understanding of technology, anatomy and medicine, raising of Orky livestock like Squigs and Snotlings and Gretchin ;), complex mathematics, brewing and fermentation, and every other important aspect of Orkish society)

It kicks in around late adolescence, early adulthood.


It is the lasting legacy of the Brain Boyz, the former master race or overseers of the Orks (now suspected as having been the servants of the Old Ones, and long ago revealed to have become the Snotlings)

malika
12-06-2005, 17:12
Doesnt the Ork reproduction begin as soon as the Ork dies? :eyebrows:

salty
13-06-2005, 12:01
No Malika, as far as I know it happens throughout the life of the Ork, like the shedding of human skin cells.

@Lord Lucifer: aah, yes, I know what it is now, knew all along but did not know it was called the technogene is all. And I thought the Brain Boyz died out because of the Enslaver Plague and/or the Orks eating all their special fungus...

Salty :)

malika
13-06-2005, 12:31
I thought once they died they would release certain spores or something

Lord Lucifer
13-06-2005, 12:33
1st ed. said the Orks ate too much of the fungus that endowed the Snotling Brainboyz with their towering intellect, and they regressed into the state they're currently in

2nd ed. simply left it at the fact that the brainboyz were overcome by a plague of sorts and disappeared/died out, not going into the same detail as was stated in 1st edition

3rd. ed. raised the possability of Old One involvement

salty
13-06-2005, 13:59
@Lord Lucifer: Thanks for clearing that up!

@Malika: When they die, thousands of spores are given off at once. Throughout life however, they shed them in a similar way to how humans shed dead skin cells.

Salty :)

Getz
13-06-2005, 20:10
A few thoughts.

Orks are not Asexual so much as they are true Hermaphrodites - rather like snails. This means they are capable of reproducing sexually with any other "adult" Ork once they reach reproductive maturity. This is actually an extremely useful ability as it prevents the Orkoid race from stagnating by introducing a bit of gentic variation into the mix.

However, the ability to reproduce asexually is what creates the vast hordes of Orks that we all know and love. Unfortunately, the Orkoid tendancey to spore upon death will result in something of a handbreak on Orkish evolution. Any Ork that has lost his head to a boltgun or exploded like a overipe grapefruit after being clipped by an Autocannon is obviously not supplying the "fittest" of genes to the collective genepool, and then he spores and a hundred more just like him crop up...

Less Survival of the Fittest, more Procreation of the Cannonfodder.

As for Orks the size of Dreadnoughts, on page 31 of the Armageddon codex there's a picture which includes an Ork that's clearly well on the way to that size if he isn't there already. He doesn't seem to be a particularly special character... The picture also crops up in the IG codex...

One other thing I's like to add, in Lord Balor's other wise excellent discourse on the respective strengths and Weaknesses of the Tyranids and the Orks he subscribes to the commonly held view that the tyranids can recover all the energy they expend on assaulting a planet by consming all it's biomass. This simply isn't the case, and applying the "Rule of Cool" would seriously break some very fundamental laws of physics. A huge amount of the energy The Hive fleet puts into creating an invasion force has to be converted into kinetic energy just to make to all thouse bugs walk, run and fight, not to mention all that energy lost though metabolic processes as excess heat (don't forget all those chimneys on TMC's these days). All this energy once it has been used is irretrievably lost to the Hive Fleet - how do you recover the energy used to make a hormagaunt's leg move?

In short, a Hive fleet can expend vastly more energy in trying to capture a planet that it recoveres in subsequently consuming all the biomass that remains. If the Orks of a particular planet puts up a good fight and stave off the Nids for an exceptionally long time (as seems to be happening) then the Tyranids will slowly starve to death as they keep pumping energy into the capture of the planet and loosing it through thermodynamic loses of the creatures they create. Sure, biologically speaking the same thing will happen to the Orks, but they aren't relying on exceeding some sort of ecological break even point to survive the trip to the next planet - and don't forget that the Hive Fleet doesn't seem to be able to siphon off the biomass en mass until the planet is largely subjucated.

Even so, I'm seriously think of Going Green for the first time ever whenever the next codex comes out, and building a vast horde of Ork Tyranic Waaagh Veterans... :evilgrin:

Lord Lucifer
14-06-2005, 03:43
Ack! Should've just said 'Genderless'
Learn yer terminolgy, Luci, learn it!

Dakkagor
14-06-2005, 10:03
In short, a Hive fleet can expend vastly more energy in trying to capture a planet that it recoveres in subsequently consuming all the biomass that remains. If the Orks of a particular planet puts up a good fight and stave off the Nids for an exceptionally long time (as seems to be happening) then the Tyranids will slowly starve to death as they keep pumping energy into the capture of the planet and loosing it through thermodynamic loses of the creatures they create. Sure, biologically speaking the same thing will happen to the Orks, but they aren't relying on exceeding some sort of ecological break even point to survive the trip to the next planet - and don't forget that the Hive Fleet doesn't seem to be able to siphon off the biomass en mass until the planet is largely subjucated.

also, orks can build plasma reactors, solar panels and other stuff to create energy to turn metals into gunz, armour and bullets. Everything the tyranids use is biomass. Eventually, if the orks keep fighting, and winning, they will get bigger, more armed, and nastier, and the planet will become a more and more spore infested polluted war world, while the tyranids will lose more and more biomass in the assaults until they bleed themselves dry. Would you like to fight a population of 15 billion green genetically enginered psychopaths on their home turf? For the tyranids, it must be like smashing their chitenous skulls against a brick wall.

Lord Balor
14-06-2005, 12:47
One other thing I's like to add, in Lord Balor's other wise excellent discourse on the respective strengths and Weaknesses of the Tyranids and the Orks he subscribes to the commonly held view that the tyranids can recover all the energy they expend on assaulting a planet by consming all it's biomass.

I simply neglected (read omitted) that entire area as it would take a bit too long to explain. I'll try to keep it simple. Getz is absolutely right when it comes to the Tyranids expendature of resources and energy in regards to an invasion. The Hivefleet creates an evergrowing enegy dept while fighting for the resourses of a planet. They need to succeed in order to recover as much of this energy dept as possible or else there on what we call in modern terms, a financial loss. This was the lesson leart from Hive Fleet Behemoth and the reason why Kraken split into Tendrils. If one raked up a energy deficit, it would be negated by another's success. However this seems a bit of a gamble as your spreading your lines thin would result in fewer resources to throw at a planet. On the bright side for Kraken, the tendrils ensured limited support for the defenders who were assaulted on all sides, making a proper defence almost impossible. Leviathan is avoiding this problem by attacking up the galactic plane and avoiding many Fortified Imperial worlds, but instead smashing into an Ork Empire (Some brainbug is going to get fired, i can really feel it). Will it act in the way of Behemoth, throwing all its resourses at a planet or Kraken's style of many tendrils. One has the potentially for massive energy loss, the other a lack of resourses to take a fortified Ork World. Its nice to knwo i'm still loved, even if it means i have to argue against the nids at some stage :p


also, orks can build plasma reactors, solar panels and other stuff to create energy to turn metals into gunz, armour and bullets. Everything the tyranids use is biomass. Eventually, if the orks keep fighting, and winning, they will get bigger, more armed, and nastier, and the planet will become a more and more spore infested polluted war world, while the tyranids will lose more and more biomass in the assaults until they bleed themselves dry. Would you like to fight a population of 15 billion green genetically enginered psychopaths on their home turf? For the tyranids, it must be like smashing their chitenous skulls against a brick wall.

A population of 15 Billion vs an average millions of billions in a single Hivefleet? Also a single Tendril of the Kraken Hivefleet almost Overwhelmed Ichar IV which had a population of 500,000,000,000 and the support of the Ultramarine Chapter. Never get into figures when dealing with the Tyranids :)

Orks can build, Tyranids can evolve. Orks shed spores that form into new orks under the right conditions, Tyranids drop spores that eventually destroy the enviroment. Orks need specific resourses, Tyranids assimilate any useful material, not just the living. If the Orks get bigger and bigger after fighting, whats going to happen to a tyranids that is made up of its DNA (No, don't say biovore). Orks have the Technogene, Tyranids have the DNA library of entire galaxies and already utilises Ork DNA. Tis a futile, but very intresting argument trying to determine who would get the better hand as time itself has frozen in the 40K universe.

But either way, its going to be very very messy :evilgrin:

Dakkagor
14-06-2005, 19:25
15 billion was a posited example. Orks inhabiting hiveworlds would spiral into the millions of billions. And they would all have a shoota. Come down here and get some!


Orks shed spores that form into new orks under the right conditions, Tyranids drop spores that eventually destroy the enviroment

Ork spores will grow practically anywhere, as proven by Gorkamorka. As for enviroment destruction, the orks do that anyway, as they have a built in ecosystem. They'll eat practically anything, and can fight in conditions as harsh as Armageddon and Valhalla without specialist equipment.


Orks have the Technogene, Tyranids have the DNA library of entire galaxies and already utilises Ork DNA.

To make biovores. Your welcome to my DNA. The technogene is an awesomely powerful weapon. It allows ork civilisation to be repeatedly burnt to the ground and be rebuilt again and again just as strong as before. The hive mind CAN be killed, but aslong as the orks keep sporing, ork kulture is immortal.


. . .which had a population of 500,000,000,000 and the support of the Ultramarine Chapter

another important point is that orks aren't really defending anything. The imperium is essentially fighting to defend its population base. The ork population base is fighting. how many of those zeros where equipped frontline fighting men? In an ork world of similar size, every last one of them.


But either way, its going to be very very messy

With both sides built for war and capable of adapting or learning from mistakes, niether suffering from bad morale, both seeing war as a way of life, hell yeah! bring on the bugz!

Xisor
14-06-2005, 19:53
I wonder however if the tek gene is distributed within the genes of other orks, or if 'mekaniaks' and the likes spore themselves... It would explain why, mostly, Feral Ork tribes tend to remain feral for lengths of time. Then again, it could be a statistical problem, only once feral ork populations are sufficient are you *likely* to produce tek-orks...

This ork-biology or orkology is quite interesting when it comes down to it. I wonder how long it took(or perhaps it will take) the Tau Fio to figure them out.

Xisor

Dakkagor
14-06-2005, 19:58
the ork technogene is present in all orks. It simply requires to be turned on by another gene that may or may not be present, or turned on, or something.

Kinda like the X gene from X men. The world where everything has an X in it.

Getz
14-06-2005, 23:13
I simply neglected (read omitted) that entire area as it would take a bit too long to explain. I'll try to keep it simple. Getz is absolutely right when it comes to the Tyranids expendature of resources and energy in regards to an invasion.

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

That's Okay Balor, I was shooting off at a bit of a tangent anyway. However, I've been hearing a lot of the "loses don't matter because we get it all back as biomass in the end" reasoning in several threads about the Tyranids recently and I thought I'd say my piece on why that kind of thinking is so terribly, terribly wrong and be done with it.

Lord Lucifer
15-06-2005, 01:47
I wonder however if the tek gene is distributed within the genes of other orks, or if 'mekaniaks' and the likes spore themselves... It would explain why, mostly, Feral Ork tribes tend to remain feral for lengths of time. Then again, it could be a statistical problem, only once feral ork populations are sufficient are you *likely* to produce tek-orks...

This ork-biology or orkology is quite interesting when it comes down to it. I wonder how long it took(or perhaps it will take) the Tau Fio to figure them out.

Xisor
The Orkoid Technogene is present in all Orks, and determines every aspect of their Orkish life.
It determines what Clan they will associate with (Snakebite, Blood Axe, Deathskull, Goff, Evil Sun, or Bad Moon... or to instead become a Freebooter), what specific talents and role they will take in society, and an innate understanding of Orkish customs and 'kultur'

It manifests in all Orks, it just manifests differently for each of them.
But it has been noticed that those that become Evil Sun have a larger percentage of Mekaniaks, those that become Deathskulls have a larger number of Painboyz, Badmoons have more Wierdboyz, Snakebites more Runtherdz, Goffs get more Nobz, and Blood Axez get more... well, brains presumably :p

And sometimes it messes up, and you get Madboyz, who 'suffer' from a number of manias, some useful, some far from useful, and some just downright disturbing




It's fun :D

Xisor
15-06-2005, 02:27
Thats my point.

Is it not possible that the 'gene' we are referring to is in fact a combination of genes that depending on their presence dictate how an Ork will fit. It could be possible for a Blood Axes Big Mek, if he makes it alone onto an uninhabited planet, but survives for a while, could spore and spawn an entire Ork Tribe as his genes contain 'all' of the relevant Ork Genes. A Goff 'bana wava' grot however may only have the correct genes to spore more goff bana wava grots and a handful of goff weirdboyz. Thirdly, an Evil Sunz painboy could spore both blood axe, evil sunz and bad moon greenskins of all types, but no others.

It could be an incredibly complex structure that means that, in certain circumstances, only certain clans are spored depending on who the 'progenitor' greenskins were. Typically any Waagh of respectable size, or even a simple fleet of pirates will tend to have enough 'Orkish Variety' or Orkiety as I now know it to 'reconstruct themselves' in a roughly 'same' state, thus allowing an equilibrium to form of 'odd combinations' which rather than forming into clans, the numbers in so small a fleet, they instead reach a roughly stable dynamic equilibrium known as 'Freebooterz'.

I think an Index Xenos Biologica is called for on this one! There's just so much more depth than simply saying 'If even one ork survives, the society can be put up within a few weeks once more', rather adding dynamics to it, but putting the overall effect at 'you've got to get them all to be sure'. It could also add interesting excuses for grot infestations or even more peculiar colonies where only a handful of archetypes of Orkiety persevere. I should imagine theres a bunch of pure Mekaniaks sitting on an asteroid somewhere zooming round the galaxy with no grots, boyz or anyone else to help them.

Thats actually quite an idea for a novel...:eek:

Xisor

Lord Lucifer
15-06-2005, 03:48
Thats my point.

Is it not possible that the 'gene' we are referring to is in fact a combination of genes that depending on their presence dictate how an Ork will fit. It could be possible for a Blood Axes Big Mek, if he makes it alone onto an uninhabited planet, but survives for a while, could spore and spawn an entire Ork Tribe as his genes contain 'all' of the relevant Ork Genes. A Goff 'bana wava' grot however may only have the correct genes to spore more goff bana wava grots and a handful of goff weirdboyz. Thirdly, an Evil Sunz painboy could spore both blood axe, evil sunz and bad moon greenskins of all types, but no others.

The 'technogene' as an artificial DNA strand, the fabled Algal DNA strand, introduced to the species by the Brainboyz to maintain the high level of culture, technology, society etc. that the Orks enjoy in the absence of the driving force in their society, the Brainboyz themselves.

A blood axe could spore or give birth (either methods apply equally) a Goff, a Mek, a Brewboy, or a TechnoSavant Madboy.
ALL the information is encoded in the Algal DNA strand, the 'technogene', and manifests seemingly at random (although there are trends that those who become Meks have more chance of also being Evil Sun etc.)


It could be an incredibly complex structure that means that, in certain circumstances, only certain clans are spored depending on who the 'progenitor' greenskins were. Typically any Waagh of respectable size, or even a simple fleet of pirates will tend to have enough 'Orkish Variety' or Orkiety as I now know it to 'reconstruct themselves' in a roughly 'same' state, thus allowing an equilibrium to form of 'odd combinations' which rather than forming into clans, the numbers in so small a fleet, they instead reach a roughly stable dynamic equilibrium known as 'Freebooterz'.
Anything can manifest from the technogene, irrespective of the 'parent'. Thus the society is preserved intact, and can arise again from but a single Ork. That was the plan of the Brainboyz, and quite deliberately so. There is no circumstancial manifestation of the technogene


I think an Index Xenos Biologica is called for on this one! There's just so much more depth than simply saying 'If even one ork survives, the society can be put up within a few weeks once more', rather adding dynamics to it, but putting the overall effect at 'you've got to get them all to be sure'. It could also add interesting excuses for grot infestations or even more peculiar colonies where only a handful of archetypes of Orkiety persevere. I should imagine theres a bunch of pure Mekaniaks sitting on an asteroid somewhere zooming round the galaxy with no grots, boyz or anyone else to help them.
Random chance or willing purpose can account for the unusual situations of Grot populations, Mek enclaves, etc.
There's every chance that a handful of Grots will be accidentally jetisonned from a Space Hulk, crash land on some inhospitable land, and find that natural reproduction is the only capable means of creating more Grots, and that the environment is unsuitable for sporing of sentient beings (the spores are only capable of creating the fungus, but any 'Ork-spawning' vegetation could be sterilised by certain chemical components in the soil, or whatever)

Thats actually quite an idea for a novel...:eek:

Xisor[/QUOTE]

Gustavus19
17-06-2005, 21:51
It seem to me that the final outcome of a war between a Hive Fleet and a Ork empire is not merely the problem of the number or the way of waging wars. If a Ork empire is constantly expanding then its population should be concentrated at a few worlds if the empire consist of a dozen worlds. the outlaying worlds would be less populated. And as orks tended to fight each other it is possible a Hive Fleet would grow in size and enegry by consuming those worlds without a fight before it need to spend huge amount of its force in a battle. In such situation it is profitable for a hive fleet to invade a Ork Empire.

On the other hand, if a ork 'Empire' truly exist, then it must have some mean of communication to notify to its ruler that a Hive fleet is invading and gather his force to confront them. I say a true Empire because if a so called ork empire is but a dozen tribes that consistly fight each other it is but a Ork infested sub-sector. I would say that a ork empire must have some form of politic structure, no matter how crude, to come into being. IMO it is that it would be a system that define the layer of tirbes and which tribes hold the overall power in the empire. the other tribes hold obligation to this tribe and the boss of the ruling tribe is the ulitmate judge of all affair in the empire. there would be interfight within the empire but not to the extend that endanger the welfare of the Empire. This is the way I imagine a ork empire now.

So such a empire could moblize much more resource then a single ork planet to fight a Hive fleet yet remind true to ork nature that orks fight each others. In the tactical level, I also think that number won't matter much. With both orks and nids able to field howizter-type weapon, both of them must have certain degree of open-order or would suffer a unacceptable level of casualty. The nid wouldn't mind casualty only to a certain degree, I believe. As it is control by a single hive mind, I believe it to be cool and ruthless. Thus as with the enegry, they would have a index of unaccetpable casualties for a objective. For orks, as they have the mind to form a empire, it is assume that the rulers would not only look for fight but AS WELL AS the possible future of the empire. In this sense they wouldn't field too much troops in the certain area of space. Thus Number wouldn't be as much as the determinding factor for a fight between Orks and nids as such factors like basic cunnings and fighting skills.

Dakkagor
17-06-2005, 22:07
It seem to me that the final outcome of a war between a Hive Fleet and a Ork empire is not merely the problem of the number or the way of waging wars. If a Ork empire is constantly expanding then its population should be concentrated at a few worlds if the empire consist of a dozen worlds. the outlaying worlds would be less populated. And as orks tended to fight each other it is possible a Hive Fleet would grow in size and enegry by consuming those worlds without a fight before it need to spend huge amount of its force in a battle. In such situation it is profitable for a hive fleet to invade a Ork Empire.

Doesn't work like that. Orks occupy every scrap of space in a sector available to them. And a planet will quickly reach carrying capacity for the orkology. that means billions upon billions of orks in each habitable system. And billions of billions of billions of orks living on roks in space, hulks, stations, airless moons, asteroids, practically any scrap of real estate around.
Ork empires DON'T expand. they fill all the surrounding space to capacity before expanding. As much as i hate it, I draw my evidence from the work of anzion: any ork held sector rapidly becomes desnely populated.
the second point is that as soon as an enemy, any enemy, of significant size presents itself, the orks all click heels and march together. Its still pretty racous and disorganized. But why beat up your mate bazrukk when a big toothy teethed alien just arrived in orbit? The alien is way harder than that poncy git bazrukk, and is far more entertaining and squishy to crump.




On the other hand, if a ork 'Empire' truly exist, then it must have some mean of communication to notify to its ruler that a Hive fleet is invading and gather his force to confront them. I say a true Empire because if a so called ork empire is but a dozen tribes that consistly fight each other it is but a Ork infested sub-sector. I would say that a ork empire must have some form of politic structure, no matter how crude, to come into being. IMO it is that it would be a system that define the layer of tirbes and which tribes hold the overall power in the empire. the other tribes hold obligation to this tribe and the boss of the ruling tribe is the ulitmate judge of all affair in the empire. there would be interfight within the empire but not to the extend that endanger the welfare of the Empire. This is the way I imagine a ork empire now.

Ork empires are probably fuedal/tribal. All the tribes fight each other for local dominance, but the top of the heap is the Warlord and his tribe. politcal structure, as usual, ranks as "whos da biggest". In times of invasion, its the warlord tribe that will end up giving orders, if any are given (you know, beyond WAAAGH). Interfighting would be practically encouraged. Fighting makes orks strong, kills the weak and makes the worthy rule. If someone kicks over the warlord, hes the boss, and you won't get a civil war. Hes the boss. Until someone kicks him off the throne.


So such a empire could moblize much more resource then a single ork planet to fight a Hive fleet yet remind true to ork nature that orks fight each others. In the tactical level, I also think that number won't matter much. With both orks and nids able to field howizter-type weapon, both of them must have certain degree of open-order or would suffer a unacceptable level of casualty. The nid wouldn't mind casualty only to a certain degree, I believe. As it is control by a single hive mind, I believe it to be cool and ruthless. Thus as with the enegry, they would have a index of unaccetpable casualties for a objective. For orks, as they have the mind to form a empire, it is assume that the rulers would not only look for fight but AS WELL AS the possible future of the empire. In this sense they wouldn't field too much troops in the certain area of space. Thus Number wouldn't be as much as the determinding factor for a fight between Orks and nids as such factors like basic cunnings and fighting skills.

There is no long term planning. Orks live to fight. Its their calling, their joy, their only purpose. There is no such thing as "unacceptable losses" to an ork warlord. If the last warband snuffed, it they where wusses, or you need to send more boyz, or bigger gargrants. Or both, 10 times over. Or maybe you didn't like that warboss and his band, because the warboss was getting uppity and needed to get perished. Worse, is that the orks, once they have beaten an invasion, will head of en masse to fight in the next one. Every tyranid hive fleet will quickly get bogged down, attacked on all sides and overwhelmed.

Squish go da bugz! WAAAGH ork!

Gustavus19
17-06-2005, 23:04
I am quite frsh to forums so someone is so kind plz teach me or point me to places when teach me how to quote.

Back to the topic. I mean a Ork empire expand I mean in their own way that they consistly get into their ship and head to new places to fight and build up a eco system. Not as a state that plan to expoand, but as the centre planet became way overcrowded and some tribe go to another planet. I know that Ork can reproduce fast and fill up a planet but even as it is fast it still take time, especially a controlled environment which is the constance interfighting. This limit the growth of population to a certain extend. But they expand nontheless. So in this way a hive fleet could consume a few ork planet with ease before coming to some serious resistance.

As to if a enemy worth attention show up then all interfighting stop, i have doubts. the problem is that still communication. If the orks tirbe on the other side of the planet don't know a hive fleet show up on the other side and no one inform them of this, iI think they would be still fighting each other.

And no offends, Dakkagor, what I said about the ork empire is just about the same as you put it. i mentioned it to be with tribes and there are interfightings amony them. But the most important point of difference of a ork empire from a ork infested sector is that it have political structure. it is crude. but it is a way that interfighting is still enjoyed as much as other ork planet, but there is obligation to the ruling tirbe and its boos. that could be change by challenging Nobz with in the tribe or even other tribes. But there is a ruling tribe to command other tribes within the empire if there is a crisis. To me it is more like a union of ork tirbe to ensure the a healthy environment for interfight within the empire :)

So if those orks are able to choose and respect a ruling tribe as well as its powerful then I assume they identify not only with their own tribe but as well as a greater identity that is the empire. human empire are to ensure the welfare the peace of its people, at least nominally, while the orks' empire are to ensure they could protect this interfighting environment while able to united to fight against outsiders. this structure is respected because it provide with every tribe a chance to take power. This could be the offspring of a great Waaagh against another empire of ork tribes. nevertheless as with unacceptable casualty it is not that they don't like casualty they sure like to fight and die, but just like the storying concerning about the Ork and his drinking buddies, to a Ork within a ork empire it would feel bad when you lose a ork tribe that you ahve bee fighting for ages. i would like to think this a Ork kind of honour. Of coirse it is a honur different from a human honour. may be if they respect a ork from enemy tribe, it would be a honour to kill him rathar then leave him alive.

As for the Warlord of the empire, keeping a mind for the empire is not the same for long term planning. What I want to say is that the care the survival to a certain degree in their own sense. To a ceratin degree is that they don't want to lose a honourable long term enemy tribe within the empire. That is like letting yarrick go. on the other if the tribe can't surive by itself then i guess the warlord would happily let it die. What I want to point out with unacceptable loses is not they will care about for casualty for in truth they don't. But that they will retreat when it is not fun and could endanger the position of them as bosses.

As orks in their nature want to get power whenever they can i.e. to challenge their bosses. Then I assume they would will look to the possiblilty of hold to their postion to the degree that they still love to charge and die on the battlefield. When I put forward unacceptable casualties it is to say that they have open-order in attacking not that they will avoid battle. To them a hand in hand ork-wave charge would not happen because the emeny could destory them with howiztors before the Close Comabt start but they will go in densely formation and fight.

Getz
17-06-2005, 23:52
Much as it pains me to back him up, Dakkagor is pretty much spot on when it comes to Ork culture. Orks fight amoungst themselves primarily when there is no one else to fight. I a new threat appears - especially if it is powerful enough to kick over an Ork world or two and therefore prove itself a worthy foe - then the masses of Orks in the Empire will literally flock towards the Invaders simply to get involved in the scrap. Just look at the third war for Armageddon as a fine example. Communication isn't really an issue as Orks are drawn towards large concentrations of other orks via their pyschic gestalt thingy...

As for orks filling up all the space available to them, you have to remeber that superlumial travel is hard for Orks, usually they just hitch a lift on a Space Hulk and end up where it ends up. However, they are easily capable of intrasystem space flight, so once they reach a new system it is a simple matter for them to occupy as many plaents as possible.

Gustavus19
18-06-2005, 00:41
I don't deny that Ork would flock to a worthy foe if such a foe present itself. However what I want to point out is the difference between a simple Ork Infested Secotor with lots of interfighting between Ork tribes and a Ork Empire that still alot of interfighting but have a crude and firm political structure. the problem in fluff is that is the term empire coined by human or orks?

If it is a term used by human to classify a political situation in a ork sector, then it mean that there is a ruling tribe yet other tribes can challenge its boss and still lots of interfighting. If it is used by the ork themselves then it is clear that the tribes within this empire have a empire identity above their own tribe identity. So a Ork empire still have intertribe fighting but could fight a outsider as a empire with the leadership of the ruling warlord. Unlike a ah hoc waaaagh that its leadership may be temporary. the poltitcal structure must come into being first before it can be named as a empire.

As for communication it doesn't necessarily is any mean known to human. The pyschic gestalt thingy is just a way of communication as well. the problem is just that the reaction speed of the main concentration of tribes of a ork empire could shape the outcome of a war with a hive fleet. For example it take time for the warlord to feel the fall of one or two ork worlds then a few days for all the tribe to gather. There may even be interfight during the gathering. Then they either have to use a space hulk or build a fleet of their own.

In 40k I think the ulimate problem is the navy. because even for the crude technology of orks it still take resources and time to build a fleet. If a ork tribe just want to go to another planet of course they can hitch on a space hulk. But if they have a destination like the 3rd armageddom war? They need a controllable fleet. So i think the main reason behind the formation of ork empires is to concentrate a planet's resource to build a fleet for bigger fightings. Remember that ork are not primative but with a certain degree of technology as well as cunning.

Dakkagor
19-06-2005, 10:34
usually they just hitch a lift on a Space Hulk and end up where it ends up.

Ahh, but if they did that, how would they end up anywhere decent to fight? they'ed spend most of their time in empty space or da wurr, and never get to krump anything. . . theres more to it than simply hitchin' a ride.

TheSonOfAbbadon
19-06-2005, 10:51
Ahh, but if they did that, how would they end up anywhere decent to fight? they'ed spend most of their time in empty space or da wurr, and never get to krump anything. . . theres more to it than simply hitchin' a ride.

Despite that, it's what they usually do, it's faster than roks at anyrate.

DantesInferno
19-06-2005, 11:28
Ahh, but if they did that, how would they end up anywhere decent to fight? they'ed spend most of their time in empty space or da wurr, and never get to krump anything. . . theres more to it than simply hitchin' a ride.


The conventional Imperial wisdom is that Orks just hitch rides at random on the Space Hulks, and can't control where they go. However, this has been challenged by the repeated massive Waaaghs at Armageddon, as well as the masterful manoeuvring before the Third War. Dakkagor has actually, perhaps unwittingly, paraphrased a quote by Commissar Yarrick:

"Gentlemen, in 941 Ghazhkull Mag Uruk Thraka invaded Armageddon. At the time there were those who said it was mere chance, a quirk of fate, that took Ghazhkull and the Waaagh! under his command to the most important and populous hive world in this segmentum. And at the time I might have agreed with such an opinion, for I was fighting in the most terrible war I have ever known, and all I cared about was that the Orks had arrived and must be defeated. But now I wonder if we can truly blame blind chance for such a catastrophe..."

Commissar Yarrick," a voice interrupts, "do you honestly expect us to believe that this... this green-skinned oaf planned to attack Armageddon. Why the idea is ludicrous - everyone knows that Orks can't guide or control the space hulks they travel in. They just board them and hope for the best..."

Yarrick fixes the interrupter with the gaze of his single remaining eye.

"You, sir, confuse tales told to ease the fears of children with the truth. what is ludicrous is to think that Orks navigate by blind chance. Remember, sir, that less than one in a thousand systems in our galaxy have planets inhabited by humans. If the Orks travelled by chance, we would have little to worry about, for they would rarely find us. No, sir, they seek us out, make no mistake of that!"

TenTailedCat
19-06-2005, 11:40
^I love this bit of dialogue, where can I find the full version (if there is one)?

DantesInferno
19-06-2005, 13:25
OK, I've had a quick flick through my WD collection (AUS), and I can't find the exact edition, but I'll swear it was in the background introduction or conclusion to an Orks v IG battle rep in the lead-up to the Third War (so WDs 230-250), where the mega-armoured Nobz retinue just went right through the IG army due to a first turn charge. Help, anyone?

TenTailedCat
19-06-2005, 13:35
>.< I only started buying WD with issue 250 lol

Bingo the Fun Monkey
21-06-2005, 21:00
Wasn't that the Jervis Guard debut battle rep? That'd be around 240 methinks...US issue, of course, in my case.

Xander-K
21-06-2005, 21:38
I think people are exaggurating how big orks can get somewhat! if you look at Ghazkall thrakka he is an exceptionally large boss and he isn't THAT big (the only reason he looks so big is because he inside a ******* huge suit of armour. Saying that orks get the size of dreadnoughts is ridiculous (from a fluff point of view). Yes perhaps in the largest concentrated systems of Orks the normal ork will be the size of a skarboy (as suggested in codex fluff), but skarboys aren't really that big anyway.

Dakkagor
21-06-2005, 23:07
Dakkagor has actually, perhaps unwittingly, paraphrased a quote by Commissar Yarrick:

nope, quite wittingly. It was that little bit of fluff I had in mind when I made that post. Yarrick is the premier mind on ork psychology and tactics. Hes the best humie ever.

Kudos to you, Dantesinferno. Kudos.

DantesInferno
22-06-2005, 00:05
^I love this bit of dialogue, where can I find the full version (if there is one)?

Found it! WD 240 (AUS), as Bingo the Fun Monkey said. Reproduced just for you:


The wall is covered by a detailed map of the sector. A man stands before it, studying it intently. This man is Commissar Sebastian Yarrick, Saviour of Hades Hive, Hero of the Imperium. A man among men. A heroes' hero. For all his, he is an unimpressive figure. He is slightly built and not more than five and a half feet tall. He wears a well-travelled black uniform. His dusty black overcoat has been patched at the elbow. His steel-grey hair is sparse and closely cropped.

Yarrick moves aside from the map, and turns his attention to the men at the conference table that dominates the rest of the room. Before him are assembled the most senior commanders of the Imperium's military forces in this sector. He addresses them...

Gentleman, in 941 Ghazhkull Mag Uruk Thraka invaded Armageddon. At the time there were those who said it was mere chance, a quirk of fate, that took Ghazhkull and the Waaagh! under his command to the most important and populous hive world in this segmentum. And at the time I might have agreed with such an opinion, for I was fighting in the most terrible war I have ever known, and all I cared about was that the Orks had arrived and must be defeated. But now I wonder if we can truly blame blind chance for such a catastrophe..."

Commissar Yarrick," a voice interrupts, "do you honestly expect us to believe that this... this green-skinned oaf planned to attack Armageddon. Why the idea is ludicrous - everyone knows that Orks can't guide or control the space hulks they travel in. They just board them and hope for the best..."

Yarrick fixes the interrupter with the gaze of his single remaining eye.

"You, sir, confuse tales told to ease the fears of children with the truth. What is ludicrous is to think that Orks navigate by blind chance. Remember, sir, that less than one in a thousand systems in our galaxy have planets inhabited by humans. If the Orks travelled by chance, we would have little to worry about, for they would rarely find us. No, sir, they seek us out, make no mistake of that!"

Yarrick steps back and waits for the hubbub his words have caused to die down.

"Enough!" his voice cuts through the air. "The question is less how they find us, as why. Why do they seek us out? And the answer is simple. they seek to do battle with us. For an Ork, war is the reason for life. Our race struggles to find peace and security. The Ork struggles to find war and mayhem. It is, quite literally, what they live for. They live to fight. Ghazghkull chose to come to Armageddon because he felt it was there he would find the most powerful opponent. He invaded Armageddon because he loves war, gentlemen - and because he thought that there he might find the best test of his formidable power."

Yarrick waits again for the hubbub of voices to die down.

"Since then Ghazghkull has continued to test us, gentlemen, most recently at Piscina IV. If proof is required of Ghazghkull's ability to plan and execute a strategy then it can be found there. We have statements from the most reliable sources that Ghazghkull deliberately travelled to Piscina in order to test out a new transportation device. What is more he did not operate alone this time, but with the aid of the Ork Warlord known as Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub. This last detail is of quite extraordinary importance, for it means that these two Ork Warlords decided to stop fighting each other, at least temporarily, and instead joined forces to attack us."

"But surely," the voice interrupts again, "surely Ghazghkull is now a spent force. After all, he was defeated in both the campaigns you mention. What threat can he possibly pose to us?"

"I would agree with you sir, if Ghazghkull had used anything but a fraction of his main force against us. But he has NOT!!" Yarrick's eye blazed cold fire. "He has been testing us, gentlemen. Piscina we know was a test. And, I am sure now, so was Armageddon. Ghazghkull Thraka took on the entire resource of Armageddon and three full Space Marine Chapters just in order to test us, gentlemen - and he almost won... he almost won."

For a moment Yarrick remembers again the horror of Armageddon, and then his attention snaps back to the men at the conference table.

"Enough history. The question is, gentlemen, what happens when Ghazghkull Thraka stops testing us. What happens when he launches his first real attack?"

No-one speaks this time. There is only an uneasy silence…




nope, quite wittingly. It was that little bit of fluff I had in mind when I made that post. Yarrick is the premier mind on ork psychology and tactics. Hes the best humie ever.

Kudos to you, Dantesinferno. Kudos.

Ah, right, my apologies, I wasn't sure if you were unknowingly coming to the same conclusion as one of the greatest military minds in the Imperium, or had read the piece (like I had).

We can agree then, that Yarrick = teh pwn.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 00:08
Love that fluff, thanks for taking the time to type it up, much appreciated.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 02:18
It should be noted that quite often Orks do navigate by 'blind chance'

All Orks are possessed of an insatiable wander-lust and curiosity. It has been stated, directly, in the background that often Orks will simply 'hitch a ride' not knowing where they'll end up, and the not knowing is half the fun


I just love that mentality :D

malika
22-06-2005, 10:59
If that would be the case (that the Orks navigate blindly) how come we had two Armageddon Wars involving the Orks and the whole planning that went ahead of it...if orks only travelled by blind chance this would never have been possible.

Xisor
22-06-2005, 11:27
I think Yarrick makes exactly that point. Orks travel by chance, they don't tend to do things with a plan. More or less, we have nothing to fear from them.

Ghazkull on the other hand, he is to be feared. He is not travelling by chance. He has a plan. He is coming to get you. You should be afraid :eek:

I think *that* is the implication Yarrick's point.


Xisor

malika
22-06-2005, 11:33
But why is Ghazkull travelling by plan and the other Orks not? I dont think that Blood Axe tribes would like to travel by chance, they'd rather have something more tactical and effective.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 12:47
If that would be the case (that the Orks navigate blindly) how come we had two Armageddon Wars involving the Orks and the whole planning that went ahead of it...if orks only travelled by blind chance this would never have been possible.

You make a mistaken assumption with this.
I'll point out the mistake:


if orks only travelled by blind chance this would never have been possible.

That assumes Orks only travel by blind chance. They don't always, it's just that often they will, simply to see where they end up :)
And furthermore, what they can slug once they get there :evilgrin:



But why is Ghazkull travelling by plan and the other Orks not? I dont think that Blood Axe tribes would like to travel by chance, they'd rather have something more tactical and effective.
There are no Blood Axe tribes. Blood Axe is a clan, there are six staple Clans in Orkish society, an Ork Tribe will feature a number of social groupings based on these Clans


Here's a breakdown of Ork society
WAAAGH!

-Freebooterz

-Tribes
--Boss' Nobz
--Clans
---Clans' Grotz
--Oddboyz
---Oddboyz' assistants
----Runtherdz' Runt Herds
--Da Stormboyz Korp
--Madboyz and Fingz
--Da Kult of Speed


Well, you get the picture





The thing about Ghazghkull is he is a special case. An extremely special case.
There are two really special Ork Warlords.
Nazdreg Ud Urdgrub, the Bad Moon Warlord, a pirate and raider of great cunning and tactical genius.
He has outwitted Imperial tacticians at every turn, outmanouevred every fleet sent to pursue him.
It is just the Imperium's good fortune that his aims are so petty and materialistic.


Ghazza, on the other hand, is the most terrifying thing in the galaxy.
And Ork with ambition

He has a vision, unlike other warbosses he thinks ahead, has plans and designs, and is also a brilliant and opportunistic tactician and strategist.
Instead of leading frontal assaults, he's often found driven about the battle-line in his kustom battle-wagon seeing 'everyfing'z going as planned'

And he's got Makari the Wonder Grot :D

malika
22-06-2005, 12:48
There are no Blood Axe tribes. Blood Axe is a clan, there are six staple Clans in Orkish society, an Ork Tribe will feature a number of social groupings based on these Clans

This would mean all the Orks of the same clan all over the universe are connected to each other somehow. Sort of that all the Goffs across the galaxy stick together...I seriously doubt that. I think the clanz are more of ideological beliefs in that point of view.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 13:18
This would mean all the Orks of the same clan all over the universe are connected to each other somehow. Sort of that all the Goffs across the galaxy stick together...I seriously doubt that. I think the clanz are more of ideological beliefs in that point of view.

They ARE connected somehow. That somehow is the Orkoid Technogene, that strand of algal DNA that determines every aspect of Orky kultur, and a given Orks' place within it.


That strand determines whether you'll be an average Ork Boy, or if you'll be an Oddboy like a Painboy or Brewboy
It determines whether you'll be a Bad Moon or a Goff

This is why single-clan Tribes never stay single-clan Tribes for long, because the next Ork's not gonna be the same as the last

malika
22-06-2005, 13:25
So the clans are in a way also subspecies. Since the Oddboyz are a variation on the Ork gene..so are the clanz?

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 13:42
Clans and the Oddboyz are not subspecies, they're merely inherited knowledge, or a predefined role in society. In most Boyz, the 'Mekboy' part of the technogene is dormant, but in Mekboyz it is active.

All Orks, be they Oddboy, Nob, or just your average Boy, belong to a Clan... except for the Freebooterz who never really fit into society, and hence become the roaming Freebooterz that they are


Oddboyz belong to Clan groupings

There is a trend within the clans that certain Oddboyz are more common in a given Clan grouping than they are in others (Bad Moons have a disproportionately high number of Wierdboyz for example, Deathskullz have a disproportionately high number of Painboyz, Evil Sunz 'ave Mekz, Snakebites have Runtherdz, Goffs have more Nobz than anyone else, and Blood Axez get the unique one, Kommandos)