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blitz589
07-06-2005, 00:44
I was wondering what everyone thought should be changed in the new codex.
For me its that vow to hit on 3+ its pretty cheezy.

LO Roxxors
07-06-2005, 02:06
From what I have heard, its all pretty good, and I look forwads to getting it.

zealousheretic
07-06-2005, 06:48
My predictions:

The vows themselves may not change all that much; I'd expect to see the vows become an army or squad upgrade with a point cost.

It takes into account the fact that some of the vows are simply better than others, and gets rid of the main complaint about the vows: they're not only something for nothing, but they can also be chosen once you know what you're fighting.

Rightous Zeal will either be toned down or cut altogether.

The crusading knight angle will be stressed. I'd expect the flagship unit for the BT codex to be related to the plastic assault terminators hitting the shelves around the same time.

warlordgrubnatz
07-06-2005, 16:19
ive hrad there bringingout assault trmies and pastic scout as well as a possible bt tac squad witch assume will contain 5 matines and 5 scouts.

6th and Final Champion
07-06-2005, 16:28
Im starting them and I hope things dont change all that much. I think the vows are a cool special thing they have gonig for them. It makes them less generic like....other...space marine chapters. I hope they stay a CC chapter aswell, they're the coolest one in my opinion. Though the choosing before the battle begins is pretty bad...

cubbster
07-06-2005, 17:13
I like the fact that you can have initiates and marines in the same squad- makes the army really different.
the hits on a 3+ is cheesy, they should tone that down a lot!

blitz589
07-06-2005, 18:39
the 3+ to hit would be fine if it was an upgrade for lik 2 or 3 pts

Karhedron
07-06-2005, 20:42
This is probably more suited to the rumour forum but here goes. From what I have heard there will be the following changes. There will probably be others, this is just what I have heard so far.

Vows will remain pretty similar to now but will have a points cost.
Devastator squads being dropped.
Righteous zeal means they will only advance D6" and not 2D6" anymore.

Jericho
07-06-2005, 21:47
Didn't they have no Devastators already though? I'd be more interested to see if they keep the whole no Vet. Sergeants angle.

zealousheretic
07-06-2005, 21:54
I'd wager they'll lose Whirlwinds, as they can't take Devastators as-is.

Lion El Jason
07-06-2005, 22:31
I understood fall forwards to now bw if they fail they fall back as normal, if they pass they fall forwards D6"

Jericho
08-06-2005, 08:33
I can't see the logic behind losing the Whirlwind, personally. One is organisational and the other is availability of resources... and it doesn't say anywhere that they don't have the armored support of other chapters.

Anyway, to answer your question on the fall back distance, at the moment they roll the normal distance but run towards the enemy not away from them... so it's 2d6" for regular infantry right now and 3d6" for bikes/jump packers.

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 09:03
I can't see them losing the Whirlwind. Losing Devs, as said above, is more of an organisational quirk due to BT's penchant for getting to grips with the enemy.

I mean, how much more can the list be reduced? They already can't have scouts, devastators, or librarians. The only real reduction they can make is to maybe bikes (mainly becoause I don't like them ;) ) or to reduce the armoured capabilities of the BT. Previous to this newest codex, they only reduced the armoured capabilities of the Fleshtearers due to their dwindling resources through the Black Rage. Admittedly now, Chapters like the Raven Guard have lost armoured units or had the numbers restricted, but that is more of a doctrinal thing due to their 'hit and run' style of warfare.

Nowhere does it say anything similar for the Templars. I just can't see it, to be honest.

Barbarossa
08-06-2005, 09:45
Due to the usual way of Black Templar warfare (crash down from orbit and beat up everone not sporting an aquila) It would be nice if they could get orbital strikes from their crusading fleet as support.

LostTemplar
08-06-2005, 12:11
As logn as they still don't have Librarians, and retain that crusading feel, I'll always like'em. However, I will stop playing them, since I don't view them as all that unbalanced, and feel that, unless GW does a good work at their rules, i'll shift to my passion, the Marauding Pirates of Eldar.

And repaint the Templars in this nice, dark, mettalic blue. *giggle*

malika
08-06-2005, 12:14
I'd be more interested to see if they keep the whole no Vet. Sergeants angle.

How come the Black Templars dont have Veteran Sergeants?

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 12:52
How come the Black Templars dont have Veteran Sergeants?

No idea. It's not really explained. They don't have sergeants of any kind actually, except for Command Squads

taintedarchon
08-06-2005, 16:38
I wonder if some units will be "dropped", and then replaced by something similar, not unlike scouts and neophytes. Maybe their bikers will become more like Knights or something, with lances.

Who knows, but I am surprisingly curious what this codex is going to be like.

6th and Final Champion
08-06-2005, 17:00
Maybe their bikers will become more like Knights or something, with lances.

.
Now THAT would be awesome

Black DH templ.
08-06-2005, 19:28
They can have veteran squads though, maybe that'll be dropped seeing as their nerfed already. That would be nice, since almost no BT players will have to throw away their minis. But GW seem to be a bit sadistic, so I don't think so...

Nukem
08-06-2005, 19:59
Well if they drop anything they better make it up by adding something. I'm only looking forward to their own codex if they give them a few chapter specific units, such as the Tyranic War vets and Honor Guard for the Smurfs.

How the hell could a SpaceMarine ride a horse... I'd feel pretty bad for that horse having to hold that dude up ><

taintedarchon
08-06-2005, 20:13
How the hell could a SpaceMarine ride a horse... I'd feel pretty bad for that horse having to hold that dude up ><

I didn't mean like a literal knight. They would ride bikes still. They would just be themed with their rules to be similar to knights. Like carry lances, maybe have some sort of shield device attached to the bike to replace their guns. I don't know. I just meant they would be similar to knights.

It would be kind of cool if these guys got a special Terminator unit. Armed with power swords and storm shields. I think that would be pretty cool.

Nukem
08-06-2005, 20:23
Yeah that would be pretty sweet.. +1 Strength powerweapons rofl

Yeah I know what you ment, I just took it in a literal meaning, because I would find that hilarious if they mounted them on horses.

malika
08-06-2005, 23:05
How the hell could a SpaceMarine ride a horse... I'd feel pretty bad for that horse having to hold that dude up ><

The old skool Space Marines could ride horses...there were even models for horse riding Space Marines! Just upgrade the horse with bionics and steroids :evilgrin:

blitz589
08-06-2005, 23:20
so a spacemarine version of the rough riders

Inquis. Jaeger
09-06-2005, 00:10
The old skool Space Marines could ride horses...there were even models for horse riding Space Marines! Just upgrade the horse with bionics and steroids :evilgrin:

Ouch. Poor horses.

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:24
Ja those horses have a horrible life >< anyway, I hope they get like a special unit like the Smurf Honor Guard.

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:27
I don't think they woll be getting better since GW is trying to promote the all powerfull smurfs

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:29
God I hate the smurfs ><

Now it would be in GW best interest to promote those armies to show people there are other choices and to make MONEY!!

malika
09-06-2005, 00:30
Ouch. Poor horses.

A horse which is upgraded like a Space Marine almost wouldnt be too bothered to wear a power armoured psycho killer :evilgrin:

aznsk8s87
09-06-2005, 00:37
I bet the AM could make completely bionic horses :D

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:40
that would be pretty coll, have like t5 horses

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:45
Terminator horses >< rofl

malika
09-06-2005, 00:47
Mounted Terminators would be overdoing it a little bit, unless they are mounted on like Elephants or something :evilgrin:

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:47
that be weird a rider that weighs more then the horse

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:48
malika your first 2 links are broken

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:52
But mabye like ork war vets or something you know... something cool like that.

malika
09-06-2005, 00:54
malika your first 2 links are broken

In my signature you mean? weird the first and third work fine while the second one was kinda stupid...fixed it now!

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:55
Terminator horses >< rofl
would be like a mega armored nob riding a gretchin

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:57
would be like a mega armored nob riding a gretchin


ROFL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

malika
09-06-2005, 00:59
Oh...I can already see that conversion appearing on some Games Day or Tournament soon :evilgrin:

blitz589
09-06-2005, 01:00
i doubt the grot model can even support that

Sildani
09-06-2005, 11:54
Please don't double post. If you have something to add, use the "Edit" button. Otherwise, a moderator may think you're spamming.

Same goes for keeping the thread on-topic. Diverge too much, and the thread may be locked. So more about Templars, and less about Nobs riding Gretchin (which has weird connotations I'm not going to deal with...)

Wonderdog
10-06-2005, 12:34
I reckon we'll see some kind of varient veteren/command squad, with all the guys armed with combat/storm shields and close combat toys, some kind of tough bodyguard unit for the E.Champion to explain why there don't seem to be any veteren BT's in normal squads... Assault dreadnoughts would be nice (furioso type thing). Just some stuff to set them apart from the codex marines a bit.

Remember that this will be the first marine dex' since the main book, and will likely set the theme for the future (and likely more important to get right) marines dex's. If they're going to have to learn from design mistakes, best do it from the least important of the big 4 non-codex chapters eh?

#Wonderdog

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 12:37
How long is the codex going to be? Is it going to be like the Dark-Angels codex back in the day? Would be nice if it was a little bigger chock full of fluff.

charlie_c67
10-06-2005, 16:24
It'll be the same size as all the new codceii.

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 18:40
Yup, it will be 64 pages long and include a full army list and fluff. None of this "refer to codex: Space Marines" for details of this unit.

Flame Boy
10-06-2005, 19:06
I like the idea of a close-combat dreadnaught. Although it might take away from the Blood Angels, I like the idea of a dreadnaught with a massive power flail for a close combat weapon...

Anyway, sorry for the madness, I'll try to stay further on topic.

I hope they have a load of background about them, because I feel they need some more, as I don't think I've read much other than a few articles about them in the Armageddon war.

G8Keeper
10-06-2005, 19:19
As a DA player i'm quite looking foward to getting my grubby mitts on the first "mini" SM Codex to see how they are going to go about organising things.

Things i'd like to see:

Perhaps a special character (not necessarily a mini) such as High Marshal Helbrecht etc

Some form of explanation as to why no Vet Sgts in squads or a unit of them guarding the EC :)

Lostanddamned
10-06-2005, 21:11
Aye, some explanations fluffwise would be nice. As would some information about how sisigmund (sp?) went about ignoring the codex astartes so much to create his personalised style of combat.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 21:15
....
Some form of explanation as to why no Vet Sgts in squads or a unit of them guarding the EC :)

Ah! Someone else has the same hang-up as I have!

MonkeyKnifeFighter
10-06-2005, 22:39
I've always had kind of an issue with the Black Templars. I'm not sure why a non-founding chapter who's rules seem to be comprised of a GW developer taking his personal army and adding all the cool stuff he could into it deserves it's own codex. There is a lot that I look at, as a Space Marine player even, in the Black Templar rules the same way I see the Iron Warriors list, which is that it was someone who somehow bypassed the normal balances to get cool stuff in for his personal army. I don't think this codex is necesasary, nor do I feel it is deserved when put up against all of the other Codexes that need updating.

6th and Final Champion
10-06-2005, 23:29
That would be very nice. I'd actually be eager to put him in my list. But I thoguht there was no Vet Sgts because the chapter was actually an amalgamtion of all the other chapters...

taintedarchon
11-06-2005, 15:26
If I had to take a wild guess at the stuff that will be in the new codex, I would think the following:

Vows (with attached point values, much like veteran skills)
Emperor's Champion (but I imagine he will be reworked somehow, just to keep him interesting)
Still no Librarians
Chaplains may have some different rule as opposed to the regular codex chaplains
Special terminators (the guys with power swords)
And I have a feeling one of the tanks is gone. I don't know why I think that. Just a gut feeling.
Oh, and maybe Knights (okay, I really don't think that will happen, I just kind of got hung up on the idea.)

blitz589
11-06-2005, 15:34
If I had to take a wild guess at the stuff that will be in the new codex, I would think the following:

Vows (with attached point values, much like veteran skills)
.)
that needs to happen, especially with some of the vows,

Ruskins
11-06-2005, 20:23
behold, Mounted Marines on Bionic horses!

http://www.afreeimagehost.com/upload/8920/liongroup.jpg

Many thanks to Powerfist from the B&C.

t-tauri
11-06-2005, 20:29
behold, Mounted Marines on Bionic horses!

http://www.afreeimagehost.com/upload/8920/liongroup.jpg

Many thanks to Powerfist from the B&C.
They're really well done. I'd like to see the horses a little more cybered and maybe bigger-the new Elf horses look more like the right size to carry a marine but they're impressive.

6th and Final Champion
11-06-2005, 22:44
I'd say bretonnian horses would be better
.

Inquis. Jaeger
11-06-2005, 23:04
Weird. I don't like them very much, but they look really well done for the sort of imagery I sure he was after.

aznsk8s87
12-06-2005, 12:02
I've always had kind of an issue with the Black Templars. I'm not sure why a non-founding chapter who's rules seem to be comprised of a GW developer taking his personal army and adding all the cool stuff he could into it deserves it's own codex. There is a lot that I look at, as a Space Marine player even, in the Black Templar rules the same way I see the Iron Warriors list, which is that it was someone who somehow bypassed the normal balances to get cool stuff in for his personal army. I don't think this codex is necesasary, nor do I feel it is deserved when put up against all of the other Codexes that need updating.

I agree with that. IMHO GW should have just stuck with the 3 ORIGINAL AND UNIQUE FOUNDING chapters. IMO Black Templars could have been traited up instead.

t-tauri
12-06-2005, 12:11
The problem stems from the Armageddon codex. Templars had the new toy with the Crusader, the easy paint scheme and a list which when played with a few times quickly becomes extremely potent with rhino rush, effective close combat and a free gift in the form of the vows.

People piled into Templars making them big sellers. When 4th edition rolled around they were selling so well that they're going to be the first chapter codex released. :(

taintedarchon
12-06-2005, 16:38
It's sad, because I like Black Templars. I collected them before Codex Armageddon came out, and loved them. I guess maybe because I love Codex Marines. But still, I played them assault like, I just was using the basic codex. Then Armageddon came out, and I did some necessary restructuring (giving my tac squads new arms and giving all my sniper scouts away) which was no big deal. Then I played, but soon realized just how much these guys were given for very little taken away. No more devastators? No big deal, I could still have a predator annihilator and a squad with a plasma cannon. Had to take the Emperor's Champion? Okay, stick with a on foot squad and they had a slightly better veteran sergeant. The army was too good.

I don't know that I'll go back to them, Iron Hands or White Scars have caught my attention, I just need to decide between the two. But for now, I'm just curious to see how the Templars turn out.

aznsk8s87
13-06-2005, 00:05
It's sad, because I like Black Templars. I collected them before Codex Armageddon came out, and loved them. I guess maybe because I love Codex Marines. But still, I played them assault like, I just was using the basic codex. Then Armageddon came out, and I did some necessary restructuring (giving my tac squads new arms and giving all my sniper scouts away) which was no big deal. Then I played, but soon realized just how much these guys were given for very little taken away. No more devastators? No big deal, I could still have a predator annihilator and a squad with a plasma cannon. Had to take the Emperor's Champion? Okay, stick with a on foot squad and they had a slightly better veteran sergeant. The army was too good.

I don't know that I'll go back to them, Iron Hands or White Scars have caught my attention, I just need to decide between the two. But for now, I'm just curious to see how the Templars turn out.

I see what you mean. they became the uber assault army which quickly replaced the original uber assault chapter, Blood Angels (Especially their DC). The Templars, I agree, had no drawbacks except that you had to take an EC. And even then, that's not much of a drawback. Hell, l could use an EC in my DABF!

Pick neither and take up Deathwing :D

Angelus Mortis
13-06-2005, 01:06
Biggest thing is the fail a morale test and move towards the enemy crap. I mean, thats what everyone was upset about he Blood Angels for back in the day. Infantry that moved faster than vehicles. Get rid of that and you can keep the rest IMO.

neokensei
13-06-2005, 07:09
Eh? The 'fall forward' rule isn't such a big thing. First off, BT are marines...which mean relatively high leadership. On average, you pass your leadership. It isn't a reliable mechanic.
As a BT player, I never rely on the 'fall forward' rule (if I did...I'd be stupid...).
If I want to move quickly to assault, I use transports (rhinos or LRCs) or assault squads.
Heheheh....I usually see people complaining about the vows....hehehehe :D

I'm guessing that the BTs wouldn't change too much...they probably won't get weaker...the new codex may just keep the status quo (with a little tweak here and there). The vows getting points costs seems reasonable enough, though.

Ciao for now,

Farseer Iakobos

Black DH templ.
13-06-2005, 12:42
I don't know why you're always so obsessed about the fluff and the founding chapters. I mean why would GW give a *****. When there are as many BT players as there are players of the founding chapters, there is an equal demand for a codex. All the fluff crap is totally irrelevant.

6th and Final Champion
13-06-2005, 16:10
Maybe they're releasing them in alphabetical order...

t-tauri
13-06-2005, 17:20
I don't know why you're always so obsessed about the fluff and the founding chapters. I mean why would GW give a ****. When there are as many BT players as there are players of the founding chapters, there is an equal demand for a codex. All the fluff crap is totally irrelevant.
Strangely enough a lot of people buy into 40k because of the "fluff" about which you're so disparaging. The background is why many of us have invested so much time and effort in GW.

Pertinax
13-06-2005, 17:36
Black DH Templar:
Please refrain from swearing. If you ahve any questions, please refer to the FAQ.

Thank you.

neokensei
13-06-2005, 17:45
I must agree with t-tauri, a good number of people buy into fluff. Why do you think there are so many SM players to begin with? Newbies don't know stats and abilities...they know that Space Marines are super humans...the heroes of mankind.
A majority of the players I know, even the competitive ones, always wanting more and more fluff.
Fluff/background story adds depth. Otherwise, WH40K will be just another boardgame.

I'd be sorely dissapointed if the upcoming BT codex, or any codex for that matter, will have little or no fluff in it...perhaps to the point of dropping the army altogether.

You may not like fluff...but there will always be others who do...whether or not they are the majority or the minority is besides the point. To each his own.

Ciao for now,

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden
Marshal of the Tondo Crusade, Black Templars Chapter
Inquisitor of the Ordos Hereticus, Malleus and Xenos

'Always lookin' for fluff...old or new'

Black DH templ.
13-06-2005, 18:22
Black DH Templar:
Please refrain from swearing. If you ahve any questions, please refer to the FAQ.

Thank you.

Ok, sorry. I thought your censor engine would catch it if it was against the forum regulations. Personally I don't see much difference between this, and writing "*****" in your post.

But I know the post was of an aggressive nature, and I apologise for that. I was just fed up with all the moaning, and about BT finally getting a codex. And I once again apologise for expressing that in an agressive manner.

Edit: Back on topic. While contemplating the dilemma, I can't see a viable reason why the fluff saying that there are main chapters would dictate these chapters to have first priority for updating rules. Especially when other lists are in greater need of them.

AND don't get me wrong, I like fluff.

dienekes96
13-06-2005, 20:32
I also tend to find complaining about the BT's getting a Codex a bit silly. To expect GW to make a HUGE business decision based on FLUFF is what is silly...not the fluff itself. The BT's are popular. They are as popular as the other Chapters with a Codex, so they represent an opportunity for GW to "cash in" on their popularity.

It helps that the BT's VISUALLY represent the very essence of 40K. High-tech gothic. Feudal superhuman knights, all that jazz.

In short, BT's are getting the Codex over the White Scars or Raven Guard because they are a lot more popular.

Pretty simple. I am excited about it. Something new for the Marineheads (not that we aren't spoiled already). Look at the poor Ork and Eldar players. THEY have legit gripes.

Take care,
Chuck

Karhedron
13-06-2005, 20:42
Look at the poor Ork and Eldar players. THEY have legit gripes.
Tell us about it. It started with a 6 year wait and ended with an "official" Waveserpent kit that looked like someone had covered a Falcon in glue and then dropped it in a bitz box. Now that is a legit gripe. :D

Ahem, back on topic. Personally I am not a huge fan of Black templars but I am in favour of them getting a new codex. To me, the existing Black templars list epitomised the worse aspects of 40K in 3rd edition.

Lists were churned out with minmal fluff and playtesting but with a bucket load of powerful special rules bolted on. I feel that the vanilla version of any list should be most powerful form of the list. Whilst variant lists may be more powerful in certain areas, I feel they should be slightly less powerful overall. Black Templars in particular made it easy to field an army that was a lot more effective than codex marines. New players played templars for the rules, not for the look or the rather sparse fluff.

By rebalancing the list and putting in a decent amount of fluff, I hope the new Templars codex fixes these problems. I have no problems with templars being popular but I would like people to play them because they look cool and have a good story, not because they feel they an get some advantage on the tabletop.

t-tauri
13-06-2005, 20:44
I also tend to find complaining about the BT's getting a Codex a bit silly. To expect GW to make a HUGE business decision based on FLUFF is what is silly...not the fluff itself. The BT's are popular. They are as popular as the other Chapters with a Codex, so they represent an opportunity for GW to "cash in" on their popularity.

I don't object to the BTs getting a full codex per se, what does bug me is that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels are going to limp along with unsatisfactory pdf lists for the next year or three. BTs are probably the most broken of the currently operational marine lists but the three chapters which have been the mainstay of Marine players since second edition could have done with the codex first, or even simply a better fit of the "get you by" list to the new codex Space Marines.

Black DH templ.
13-06-2005, 21:29
I also tend to find complaining about the BT's getting a Codex a bit silly. To expect GW to make a HUGE business decision based on FLUFF is what is silly...not the fluff itself. The BT's are popular. They are as popular as the other Chapters with a Codex, so they represent an opportunity for GW to "cash in" on their popularity.
Chuck

You see, there was the post I should have made.

Anyways, I btw am an Eldar player, and I solely chose The Black Templars because they looked cool. I didn't even know they were popular, and that they were "easy" to paint at that point. Yes, you get the message. I'm an angel.

taintedarchon
13-06-2005, 22:39
I feel that the vanilla version of any list should be most powerful form of the list. Whilst variant lists may be more powerful in certain areas, I feel they should be slightly less powerful overall. Black Templars in particular made it easy to field an army that was a lot more effective than codex marines. New players played templars for the rules, not for the look or the rather sparse fluff.



I agree with this. That's what I like about the Chaos codex in many respects. With the exception of the Iron Warriors, the alternate army lists aren't any more powerful than the main list. In fact, in the case of the cult armies, they are inferior. They get the advantage of having the Favored rule for free Aspiring Champions, but that doesn't really make them that great. I love my Thousand Sons. They are tricky (and by tricky I mean extremely difficult) to play, but they are cool and fun.

I hope Black Templars can be made to the point where they are balanced, but still maintain that sense of crusadery knight thing going.

dienekes96
14-06-2005, 18:18
And the Codex will "fix" the Templars. Again, it's a business decision. Chances are, GW can make more profit from a BT Codex than a SW, DA, or BA Codex. Not on the book, but the models themselves. It's a clean slate, so to speak. So even the SW players will be excited. I'm a 13th Company guy myself, but the Templars needed to be fixed more than the other subs. As a sidenote, I am willing to bet CASH MONEY that the BA's get revamped next fall. SW's last. BT makes sense first. They are newer and fresher, for the gamers and the designers both.

Besides, I've heard some cool things. Like retinues of zealot servitors and the like for Chaplains. How 40k is that?

Take care,
Chuck

LimeLord
14-06-2005, 22:07
I don't know why so many people are so pessimistic about the BT, they say they are so unfair, but getting vet squads nerfed, not too mention having no librarians or devastators is a pretty big downer, hopefully they will add a points cost to the vows though, and lower the cost of assault marines, i mean they are still alot more points than generic assault marines

(plus the falling forward isn't exactly always woderful, ever had a bunch of normal tac marines charge a wraithlord?)

Plus more fluff and maybe a nice special unit like sword brethren would be nice, i like fluff........

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 08:32
Zealot Servitors? How can that work? :wtf: They've got no mind to be zealous with!

geoffkemp
15-06-2005, 09:00
A horse which is upgraded like a Space Marine almost wouldnt be too bothered to wear a power armoured psycho killer :evilgrin:

.... And that is just the horse

icharus
19-06-2005, 20:49
I see what you mean. they became the uber assault army which quickly replaced the original uber assault chapter, Blood Angels (Especially their DC). The Templars, I agree, had no drawbacks except that you had to take an EC. And even then, that's not much of a drawback. Hell, l could use an EC in my DABF!

Pick neither and take up Deathwing :D
Hi newbie name of icharus. I always thought the EC smacked of witchcraft who's to say that it's the emperor giving vision's of doom and disaster. Plus how many crusade's are out there nobody know's after Sigismund left on the great crusade. Also wouldn't neophytes be better used for the roll of scout's instead of cannon fodder because of the mixed armour. We all hope for all the answer's that we want, but some secert's shall remain.
Thougt for the day : Kill the pysker.

LimeLord
20-06-2005, 03:27
neophytes are normaly in the roll of scout, just the BT don't believe in scouts, and according to fluff, there are ALOT of crusades, :D

Nazguire
20-06-2005, 10:44
neophytes are normaly in the roll of scout, just the BT don't believe in scouts, and according to fluff, there are ALOT of crusades, :D



They believe in Scouts, except they believe in putting them where the most danger is...hence with Tactical Squads...

Xander-K
20-06-2005, 10:52
I must agree with t-tauri, a good number of people buy into fluff. Why do you think there are so many SM players to begin with? '
the models are pretty.

Thats why Dark Eldar never sold much, the models were terrible, if they were any good I think they would have sold a LOT more (despite the odd list they had).

LimeLord
21-06-2005, 20:06
They believe in Scouts, except they believe in putting them where the most danger is...hence with Tactical Squads...

I thought that putting them in harms way was a space wolf thing? and bt don't have scouts, they have neophytes, says the scriptures
:D

Jal'knock
21-06-2005, 21:13
Thats why Dark Eldar never sold much, the models were terrible, if they were any good I think they would have sold a LOT more (despite the odd list they had).

Was still quite possibly the best list in the game. Stupid warrior plastics were terrible, even above most of the rest! As for the Templars the only problem I had with them was that they ran towards people after taking a pounding in the shooting phase. Beyond that the vows were a nice addition and I'd like to see one or two more added for some variation and have their own drawbacks so that they have to be chosen when making a list. Kinda like the chapter traits system in the new dex.

Nazguire
22-06-2005, 10:22
I thought that putting them in harms way was a space wolf thing? and bt don't have scouts, they have neophytes, says the scriptures
:D



Neophytes, scouts same type of thing.

Space Wolves don't put scouts in danger as part of intiation. As soon as they complete their trials they are given power armour. No need for fighting for 50 years to gain a suit, just as soon as all the organs work. The Space Wolf Scouts are the veterans of the Chapter that are 'loners' and given very very dangerous infiltration duties. Some Scout units stay behind the lines for a decade at a time. :D

aznsk8s87
22-06-2005, 13:09
the models are pretty.

Thats why Dark Eldar never sold much, the models were terrible, if they were any good I think they would have sold a LOT more (despite the odd list they had).

actually i was more inclined to go for the imperial guard; their mordian range was awesome! that was in the day when the only plastics was the catachan boxed set but i wanted mordians. and am still waiting :chrome:

yeah, the DE models were horrible.


Space Wolves don't put scouts in danger as part of intiation. As soon as they complete their trials they are given power armour. No need for fighting for 50 years to gain a suit, just as soon as all the organs work. The Space Wolf Scoeuts are the veterans of the Chapter that are 'loners' and given very very dangerous infiltration duties. Some Scout units stay behind the lines for a decade at a time.


my philosophy is pick up the scout and use his shoulder as a resting spot for my bolter :evilgrin:

EmperorsChamp01
22-06-2005, 13:18
They Shouldnet have to pay for the vows because they would be like everyother friken SM chapter in the whole d@mn imperium. GD!!!!!! you guys are probally the most whiney group of men and women that play 40K. Yea lets take away the Rightious Zeal and make them Pay for the vows. Umm yea lets take away the chance of using the Dev squads and xxxxx out their LRC. Oh yea dont forget to change the Mixed armor rule so that the actual SMs die faster than the Scouts.

Dont Take what i just said personally I just hate it when I get mad. Sorry

Karhedron
22-06-2005, 13:54
Dont Take what i just said personally I just hate it when I get mad. Sorry
You hate it when when you get mad? :eyebrows:

I am not saying that everything that make Templars good should be taken away. However at the moment they are just too good. They get many more freebies than they do penalties. The only real penalties in the list are the lack of Veteran sergeants considering that the hidden power fist seems to be a standard tactic in 4th edition.

Falling foward when shot and vows are two very powerful free advantages for Templars. Devastators are good but the role can easily be substituted by Tanks or Dreadnoughts. Librarians are good but most Marine players still usually prefer Chaplains or Commanders (even more so in the new codex).

No one is saying that Templars should be completely nerfed. People just want them to be balanced so that the advantages they get are either paid for or balanced by meaningful penalties. We are after balance, not neutering. As it stands at the moment, BTs are definately the most powerful of the variant chapters.

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 13:54
Why are people, including a large selection of BT players, who want a well thought out, balanced and above all fair list all of that? Sorry but that's earning a complaint.

Sildani
22-06-2005, 14:45
I also don't see how the Land Raider Crusader got weakened... yes, it lost its Templar exclusivity but I don't see how that affects the Templar list in any way.

Add me to the list of people who want to see the Templar list become balanced. I've never played against them, but the idea of getting something for nothing goes entirely against the concept of game balance. And, yes, some of the Craftworld Eldar lists are guilty of this as well. I want them changed too.

Insane Psychopath
22-06-2005, 14:58
With me & the Land Riader Crusd. Problem was not the gaming side but more the model side. Talking of that was there not plan on making it all plastic??????

philbrad2
22-06-2005, 15:45
With me & the Land Riader Crusd. Problem was not the gaming side but more the model side. Talking of that was there not plan on making it all plastic??????

Cheaper & simpler for GW to make the modified parts in metal and add them to the plastic kit. Tooling a sprue would have gcost GW a lot of money for what is a fairly low sale model (even if it is an SM tank) Same with the Baal Pred. If GW are certain of volume sales they'll look at plastics, if not plastic/metal hybrids are the norm through troops and vehicles.

:chrome:

Baneon
22-06-2005, 16:02
Friend of mine at GW was telling me that he's seen the new BT special character. Chaplain like guy with 4 servitors, except the sevitors are supposed to be failed space marines. One has a pillar chained to his back and another has a cyber arm censur/power flail type thing.

6th and Final Champion
22-06-2005, 16:16
Somehow I doubt that. Arent they not coming out till like, mid next year?

Insane Psychopath
22-06-2005, 16:44
There is a model of there chapter master or know as High Marshel. It was post here when the old site before the new name. There is also going to be a new Chaplain

New chaplain on here

http://www.vovin.de/

Just go to the left on Codex Space Marine & just look down.

There are defo chaplain model coming out but with Servo guy.... that more Iron Hands & that was in the book Iron Hands that they are fail Marines.

Also on the LRC comment fair due as it did cost GW to make the LR mold what £500 or somthing more????? & the LRC not really jump off as you said.

Pertinax
22-06-2005, 16:48
EmperorsChamp01: Care to take the anger down a notch?

I am giving you a warning for offensive and rude posting. Please don't do it again.

Thank you.

Pertinax
Site Admin.

Rlyehable
22-06-2005, 17:31
I just hope the new codex allows for more than just BT.
I would prefer "Codex Crusading Chapter" that would allow variant lists.

t-tauri
22-06-2005, 17:46
I just hope the new codex allows for more than just BT.
I would prefer "Codex Crusading Chapter" that would allow variant lists.
That's a decent idea but it doesn't seem to be on the cards.

Inquis. Jaeger
22-06-2005, 18:55
I just hope the new codex allows for more than just BT.
I would prefer "Codex Crusading Chapter" that would allow variant lists.

There was a rumour like this circulating a while back. The proposal was to include the Imperial and Crimson Fists as well as the BT. This seems very doubtful in the light of the inclusion of these Chapters in the Traits system.

Venerable Dred
22-06-2005, 18:57
Somehow I doubt that. Arent they not coming out till like, mid next year?Actually it is more like this Fall/Winter.

<<>>

As for special characters, one possiblity that I heard someone mention was High Marshall Helbrecht.



Unlike Standard Codex Marines, the BTs could also have the option of more or different access to LR Crusaders, say as dedicated transports (possibly for Command Squads, Terminators, and/or Tactical squads) in addition to as a HS selection (like everybody else).

Just thinking out loud. ;)

Insane Psychopath
22-06-2005, 21:43
Inquis. Jaeger

There was a rumour like this circulating a while back. The proposal was to include the Imperial and Crimson Fists as well as the BT. This seems very doubtful in the light of the inclusion of these Chapters in the Traits system.

Yep I am with you there since IF & CF are in codex Space Marine anyway.

It is manliy BT but there will be part for DiY chapter as well.

Also the Termies assault squad are defo coming out for anyone want to know.

taintedarchon
22-06-2005, 21:55
I kind of hope that the vow thing is purely on an individual squad basis. I think that would be the most appropriate thing, in my opinion. That would really allow for customization for the army, and we'd really see a difference appear in Black Templars armies.

Inevitably there will be some combination of various things, be it units, wargear, or whatever, that will be the most effective for very little effort on the gamer's part (every army has a combo like that, and it seems that many gamers like to utilize these in the hopes of the cheap and easy win.) But I think amongst others, there will be a stronger movement towards very unique Black Templar armies, which there should be, given that Templars are so spread out on various crusades that I can't imagine any single crusade being identical.

zealousheretic
23-06-2005, 04:45
Vows being squad by squad would make them very trait-like.

I think it'll be more fitting if the vows are army-wide.

It'll depend on the designer's intent, of course, but (my BT-foo is kinda weak, correct me if I'm wrong) my understanding of the fluff is that the whole army takes the vow before battle in a suitably knightly and solemn fashion.

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 05:15
I think tha vows should be still army based. ZealousHeretic is absolutly right about the Vows. Read the book Crusade for armagaddon or read some fluff about the BT and you will relise that. The LRC was weakend by the SM codex because the hurricane bolter now counts as a defencive weapon. It used to be able to shoot no matter how far you moved. The IF and The CF are not Crusading armies. They are a codex SM army. They are not crusading for anything. Obvoilsely you all dont knowanything about the BT. Before you start complaing learn something about the BT and how the GW punks took all thier advantages away.

Insane Psychopath
23-06-2005, 07:35
I agree with the while army vow as it would be all off them kneeling down & repeting after the Chapter chaplain there vow.

I think they'll still be army vow. It the Emperor Champoin getting change I know that since Greame McNeil told me as for anything else you lot guess is as good as mine.

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 08:12
Do you know how much he is getting changed?

Gaebriel
23-06-2005, 10:54
...
Obvoilsely you all dont knowanything about the BT. Before you start complaing learn something about the BT and how the GW punks took all thier advantages away.
:eyebrows: Language, Sir!

I would like to see a decent portion of fluff, describing how exactly the chapter deviates from the Codex Astartes. With crusades being next to independent, there have to be some interesting effects on command and support structures.

Ruleswise I have no wishes and concerns, except keeping them something truly unique (so no trait-like structure).

Modelswise I hope for some nice character models (the chaplain looks really good), to incorporate into my (non-Black Templar) Marines force.

Karhedron
23-06-2005, 12:39
Obvoilsely you all dont knowanything about the BT. Before you start complaing learn something about the BT and how the GW punks took all thier advantages away.
May I advise going easy on the sweeping generalisations? Accusing other posters of ignorance is never a good way of getting your point across. May I also suggest that take a little more time with your spelling and grammar? Some of your posts are a little hard to read.

It is pretty clear from your ID and your avatar that you are a Black Templars player. You obviously enjoy playing your army and naturally don't want to see it weakened. I play Blood Angels and encounter similar opinions to a lesser extent. But it is important to realise that there are a lot of people on this forum who have been playing both with and against Black Templars for a long time. The general consensus is that Black Templars are an overpowered army because their bonuses are more significant than their penalties when compared to standard codex Marines.

It is important to consider that if a large number of people hold a similar opinion then there may be a reason for it. I am not saying that the majority is always right, far from it. However when it is clear that a certain level of consensus exists, making blanket statements like "Obvoilsely you all dont knowanything about the BT", is not going convince anyone.

If you feel that BTs have an undeserved reputation for being overpowered then trying making clear, concise posts explaining your opinion and providing evidence to back it up. Resorting to insults is not going to convince anyone and is just likely to result in people not taking you seriously in future.

This forum is generally pretty good at supporting people with different opinions provided both sides post well and avoid flaming. Letís keep it that way.

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 13:07
Ok i retract that last statement. I am truley sorry that if I offended anyone with those statements. I just dont want to see a good army going down the drain. It makes me angey that SOME people dont know the fluff about the army and they want to change them so they are like all the other SM chapters. They fluff about the BT is that they are a crusading army and that they take a Vow as an army to achieve a certian objective. And the vows also come from where the crusade is originating from and why the crusade starts. I dont know about other BT players but I have only won 3 matches in a 1v1 game. And I have been playing BT for over 4 years. It might be my shotty luck or that I dont have the tactics for this game.

I do not want the BT to go down with out a fight. They have recently been handed the
$h!T end of the SM stick (from my point of view)

Cons
1. The Lrc had been stripped of its indivuality as BT tank
2. The LRC lost its ability to use the Hurricane Bolters no matter how far it moved
3. The regular Tac marines of the Codex SM now can carry Plasma Cannons Multimeltas when only Chapter Specific armies could
4. They cannot take Vet. Sgts. except in the HQ squads
5. They cannot have scout squads
6. They cannot use sniper rifles
7. They cannot use Dev. Squads
9. They have a crappy mixed armor rule that makes the Majority armor class die off first.(wouldnt you think that the scout armor would fail faster than the SM armor?)
10. They dont get to use Librarians
11.They dont get to use any scout weaponary

Pros.
1.They get the emperors champ
2.Their Independant Char. get Purity seals
3. They get to charge forward if moral is failed (barely ever happens with the new commander rule!)
4. They can Have 15 man squads.
5. They can have CC squads

Well that is why i think that the BT should stay the same. Im not aginst change but I just dont want to drastick of a change to where I have to completely reformat my tactics. Because I've come so close to winning in the last few weeks. Contact Gannon on here and ask him if i was telling the truth about my crappy record.

Wimvh
23-06-2005, 13:59
Pros.
1.They get the emperors champ
2.Their Independant Char. get Purity seals
3. They get to charge forward if moral is failed (barely ever happens with the new commander rule!)
4. They can Have 15 man squads.
5. They can have CC squads

6. They get their vows for free?

Let's not beat about the bush, it IS quite a powerful list.

And GW will probably make it individual enough to be worthwile...

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 14:02
Yea after i saw some one posted after me i remembered the Vows thing. I hope they make like a new HQ squad choice like the UM Honor Guard. but probally not just Wish full thinking

charlie_c67
23-06-2005, 14:10
At present BT is viewed as a power gamers dream, appearing to incorporate all that was bad about the 3rd ed codexes. You may list as many cons as you want but the fact still stands that in terms of gameplay, this list is up there with the eldar in terms of brokeness. Also it's a 3rd ed codex, meaning you can't compare at all to nids or SM's as it was based on different ruleset.

There's no point griping that GW will nerf yours or any army at present as all indications so far (SM and Nid dexes) are that they are coming out with well thought out and balanced lists. Yes there may be one or two minor problems but nothing anywhere near as bad as things used to be.

Karhedron
23-06-2005, 14:10
Yea after i saw some one posted after me i remembered the Vows thing. I hope they make like a new HQ squad choice like the UM Honor Guard. but probally not just Wish full thinking
Actually I have heard that they will be getting a special Sword Breathren unit. What the rules will be I don't know but I think it is safe to assume that BTs will be getting some nice new models too.

charlie_c67
23-06-2005, 14:16
So far these figures have been mooted at some point.
Plastic Scouts
Sword Bretheren
Assault Termis (confirmed)
Chaplain(s) (who knows, maybe a plastic one? Like the commander)
A special character possibly Helbrecht.

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 14:30
Ok guys I all ready apologized about griping about GW conning me out of my army but what else am i supposed to do? just let my army fall in to Medeocraty? I dont think so. Im going to comeplane about the tau getting new stuff and how the BT where broken down untill the cows come home. *door bell rings*Mooooooooo. Oh i guess the cows are home.

charlie_c67
23-06-2005, 14:51
Have you proof that the BT's will be broken? No. So getting all het up about it is unjustified. And so what if the tau do get new stuff? Just cos you don't like them is not a reason that they don't get new things.

EmperorsChamp01
23-06-2005, 14:59
All right fine calm down this is a froum i can speak my mind about 40k on.

Insane Psychopath
23-06-2005, 19:58
The Termies (assault) are for 100% coming out.

Sword Bretheren

If they come out cool I hope they have a knight look as in the Epmeror champ head style.

Chaplain

Yep he coming out to but as you said plastic or metal??? I posted a link fo the guy in resin somwhere.

A special character possibly Helbrecht.

There is a model of him... he was post up back on the old site.

Brimstone
23-06-2005, 20:05
Ok i retract that last statement. I am truley sorry that if I offended anyone with those statements.

Good, the other members posting on this thread have already pointed out that your posting should have been considered more.


I just dont want to see a good army going down the drain.

Lets wait for the codex before deciding that, yes.

The Templars will NOT be like any other codex chapter that's why they are getting a codex of their own.




Chaplain

Yep he coming out to but as you said plastic or metal??? I posted a link fo the guy in resin somwhere.

A special character possibly Helbrecht.

There is a model of him... he was post up back on the old site.

Both can be found in the rumour roundup at the top of this page.

Black Mage
24-06-2005, 01:04
Personally, I'm not at all convinced that the BT's are broken. They were under 3rd ed. with the rhino rush, but with its demise, so goes the brokeness. 4th ed. is a shooting army's dream, particularly with rapid fire being what it is. It is true that they get powerful vows, free from points cost, but that does not make them broken beyond what most other marine armies can do anyway, especially with veteran skills. Generally, assault armies are having a tougher go of it. Heck, according to the letter of the rules (which IMHO is rather short on research) BT's don't even get drop-pods.

Some people will say that a dev squad can be replaced by a vehicle, which is true, to an extent. Dev squads could be argued to have more resilience granted by up to ten marines, and quite often, they are so far back that smaller arms will be out of range. Vehicles, as so many often point out, can be destroyed by one good hit, whereas a devestator squad, will quite often have more weapons, and the capability to withstand more fire.

Librarians are sick in 4th ed. Veil of Time anyone? It's absolutely disgusting to have a character that can nullify psychic powers, instakill multiwound creatures, and potentially reroll all to hit, to wound and saving rolls, for only about 120 pts. BT's are missing out here, even with an LRC chock full of marines led by a chaplain.

Scouts are cool, scouts with sniper rifles are better. Nothing says "I Love You" like bringing down a Wraithlord with sniper fire. Having to go up to said wraithlord, even with up to 15 space marines with a hidden powerfist to smack it down hurts. Particularly when getting shot up by starcannons the whole way. Same could be said with most monstrous creatures, and who really wants to walk towards that new Hive Tyrant?

As I see it, the vows are neccessary to put BT's on a more even footing. Blood Angels get the Death Company, BT's get the Vows. That said, I do look forward to the new 'dex, it looks to balance things out a bit, so that the vows won't be neccesary just to give the army a decent chance.

LimeLord
24-06-2005, 04:50
I think they'll still be army vow. It the Emperor Champoin getting change I know that since Greame McNeil told me as for anything else you lot guess is as good as mine.

I hope they don't spruce him up too much, i really like the current emps champ model, and i'd hate to have to make him command squad lacky instead of an emperors champion

would an emporers champion be a champion for selling stuff? Like an employee of the month or something? that could be a hilarious army theme :D

neokensei
24-06-2005, 07:22
Black Mage:
BTs ARE broken. :)
I play BT...I should know.
Despite all the changes that 4th Ed brought, BT are still broken. Just like SW and IW.
Yup, those 3 are THE broken armies of 40k.
Don't bother rationalizing that "they have this, ergo, we're not broken anymore...or this got better and we don't have it, ergo, its not fair".
BTs are broken.
If you want what the other SMurfs have, you can always approximate a BT list using Chapter Traits...and just give your marines that black and white with a hospitaller cross treatment :)
If anything, the new codex would probably keep the status quo (or approximate it), as, perhaps, too many BT players will get annoyed (or whine...) if their powerful army gets nerfed (even if its a slight nerfing...).


Ciao for now,

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden
Marshal, Tondo Crusade, Black Templars Chapter (soon to retire)
Inquisitor, Ordos Hereticus, Malleus, Xenos

hivefleetcarrion
24-06-2005, 09:24
i dont play bt so dont shoot me if im wrong, but havnt bt been killing orks since armagedon?

i would think that they might have prefered enemy by now, or something along the lines. or am i thinking of imperial/crimson fists?

Insane Psychopath
24-06-2005, 09:53
LimeLord
I hope they don't spruce him up too much, i really like the current emps champ model, and i'd hate to have to make him command squad lacky instead of an emperors champion

would an emporers champion be a champion for selling stuff? Like an employee of the month or something? that could be a hilarious army theme

Just when I talk to Greame McNeil he said he was not allowed to say much due to it not being in the 6 month release time (this was back in March) But he said.. lot people where useing the EC like there captain.. so he said somthing about the double handed/single handed rule going to be change.

He'll still be by himself of course no we he will be a Compnay Champion no, the EC is what makde BT, BT


neokensei
BT are still broken. Just like SW and IW

No not really.... well my Oblit have had bit like arm broken but that been it, or a skull form a backpack other than that there fine :D

hivefleetcarrion: i dont play bt so dont shoot me if im wrong, but havnt bt been killing orks since armagedon?

i would think that they might have prefered enemy by now, or something along the lines. or am i thinking of imperial/crimson fists?

Yes, yes they have, but saying that they also fight chaos (just for that 3+ to hit thing) which is hand against Daemon, many great daemon... come on apart form long range fire how else will you take them down in CC???? yeah I know power fist... but if he gose for a squad with no power fist...

Well from what I heard you might be able to get a few stuff from UK Games Day... don't know if I will go????

Black Mage
24-06-2005, 15:05
Black Mage:
BTs ARE broken. :)
I play BT...I should know.


Yes, I would surmise that you do play them, but then, so do I. Have been for oh nigh on to five years now. It's certainly not a long time in the great span of things, but its certainly enough time to get a feel for the army, in this edition, and in the last. I would appreciate more than just a casual dismissal. Perhaps some reasons why you view the BT's as broken.


I'm not huge on the concept that Orks are going to be the "enemy of choice" for the black templars releasewise and fluffwise, but then, it is a major focus of late with the 3rd war for Armagaddon, and would make sense, for Helbrecht himself set off on crusade with Commissar Yarrick to hunt down Gazhkull. And therefore, why not? It's recent fluff.

Insane Psychopath
24-06-2005, 17:01
Like Black Mage I don't seen them as broken & I've been with them since the Emperor Champ model came out (25th GW B/day). Rhino Rush is no more that what I thought made them great support by a squad or 2 of Assault Marines & also 2-3 Dread (come one I thing Dread are cool)

Any way let this topic be on the new codex Templars & how great it will be.

Black DH templ.
25-06-2005, 13:46
Can anybody define the word "broken" in the army list sense?

I'm getting tired of all this broken talk.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 13:50
"Broken" means fundamentally flawed, from origin or has become flawed. You would consider the Orks broken because a lot of their codex rules has been nullifed by the new edition. The DE were considered broken by some because of the composition of their army, fragile units and lacking heavy support. There are many types of "Broken". Even the SoB repentia are viewed as broken by some because of their high-points cost and many see the Arcos as a much better choice.

hivefleetcarrion
26-06-2005, 05:45
i never considered the de list broken. boring was mainly what i thought of it, dont get me wrong, if the models were better i would have started but for me weapon of choce seems to be angoniser+ pistol and squads with dark lances....very nasty

Insane Psychopath
26-06-2005, 08:03
Same here, I collecet them I never found them broken.

Thought you lot would like to see the new Templar Chplain

http://img223.echo.cx/img223/7953/photo0391ls.jpg

Sorry if already up

Brizzle
26-06-2005, 10:33
I personally think that the Templars are unique enough to need their own codex. As to how broken they are, I can't really say, being that I am so new. I have a friend with a BT army, so I hope to soon be able to judge them for myself.

Nazguire
26-06-2005, 10:40
I personally think that the Templars are unique enough to need their own codex. As to how broken they are, I can't really say, being that I am so new. I have a friend with a BT army, so I hope to soon be able to judge them for myself.



I think that they should have a codex too, they are unique enough and they have a long history, plus they are the poster Marine of GW, asides from Ultramarines of course.

However I don't believe that they are broken. Muddled yes, but not broken, the vows that people complain about aren't that big an advantage.

Samoth
26-06-2005, 13:36
What would be really cool is a new model, and rules for commissar yarrick in the black templar codex, able to be taken as a special charachter.

But damn it, he's in the guard codex.

LimeLord
26-06-2005, 15:37
i'm not sure if they should be able to use yarrick, i mean he was all about the armageddon crusade, but did they ever fight with him or even take orders from him?

Brizzle
26-06-2005, 16:05
I agree. According to the Armageddon Codex, there are only three out of a whole lot of BT crusades at Armageddon. Anyway, I think the current Yarrick model is just fine.

neokensei
26-06-2005, 16:39
If I remember it right, Yarrick went with the BT to fight Orks (after the 3rd War for Armageddon). I just forget where I read that... (IG Codex?)

Ciao for now...

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden

Black Mage
26-06-2005, 16:41
The thing to remember about crusades though, is that they can potentially equal standard SM company size, or even be bigger, there is no set size for a crusade.

Yarrick in the BT 'dex would be interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. It'd certainly follow fluff tho to have him in there.

Imbroglio
26-06-2005, 16:56
I don't think there's any reason they couldn't do a second Yarrick, set at a different point in history. Special characters are 'historical' charcters anyway - look at the development of Lysander in the SM books.

Granted it would pose a possible problem to have two generations of Yarricks in one edition of the game, but it wouldn't require much common sense for players not to field a Yarrick on both sides. They could even include a clause in the special character profile for stupid people with no appreiciation of the problems with the same individual being on both sides.

Regards,

-- Imbroglio

Marshal Draziel
26-06-2005, 20:43
Oh my god..... perhaps this is crazy.. bu do you think he could return
together with the Templars in power armour?

That would be so cool, AND make my Imperial Guard friend so jealous..
:D :o

Brimstone
26-06-2005, 20:45
Oh my god..... perhaps this is crazy.. bu do you think he could return
together with the Templars in power armour?

That would be so cool, AND make my Imperial Guard friend so jealous..
:D :o

No not happening, it's pure speculation.

Asher
26-06-2005, 20:51
Granted it would pose a possible problem to have two generations of Yarricks in one edition of the game, but it wouldn't require much common sense for players not to field a Yarrick on both sides. They could even include a clause in the special character profile for stupid people with no appreiciation of the problems with the same individual being on both sides.


That would barely stop them, as such a case was already encoutered in the Storm of Chaos campaign. There we have three different generations of Valten and some trouble concernig weaponary (KF vs. Valten = 2x Ghal Maraz).
I don't see that comming though; although it would be pretty cool and something of a change.

Brizzle
27-06-2005, 03:30
I really couldn't see Yarrick being in the BT codex. It just doesn't seem to fit right and he is already in the IG book.

LimeLord
27-06-2005, 04:06
I agree, he's fine where he is, mabye they could do a fluff article about him or something but they shouldn't make him a special character, that may make alot of people (mainly guard players) unhappy.

EmperorsChamp01
27-06-2005, 04:19
Crusades happens when something terrible happens to a group of BTs or they have to accomplish something. There is no set size of a Crusade. They are mostly built loosly around the Index Astarties. But like the Armagaddon war has brougt out a huge crusade which in volves a high marshel. He is the Chapter master so to speek. Each crusade has an important mission that they must accomplich before the crusade is considered over. Read this http://redelf.h1.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_bt.html to learn more or just read the BL book Crusade for armagaddon.

LimeLord
28-06-2005, 03:55
That book is a good read. When is the BT codex going to come out? i heard november but alot of people have been hinting sooner. Can someone help me out?

Brizzle
28-06-2005, 05:26
That book is a good read. When is the BT codex going to come out? i heard november but alot of people have been hinting sooner. Can someone help me out?

October is the most common answer I've heard at the LA Bunker, but the earliest I've heard is September

Karhedron
28-06-2005, 07:21
Supposedly the new Assault Terminators are due to be released in September so BTs could even start appearing then. I think that Black templars are the next release after Wood Elves so assuming that Welves get the next 2 months, that would bring us up to September for the first previews of the Templars.

Nazguire
28-06-2005, 10:34
Supposedly the new Assault Terminators are due to be released in September so BTs could even start appearing then. I think that Black templars are the next release after Wood Elves so assuming that Welves get the next 2 months, that would bring us up to September for the first previews of the Templars.


Hence why I'm not buying new Termies until the New AT's come out. That way I get a crack at converting them into Chaos Termies :D