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blitz589
07-06-2005, 22:05
i was wondering if anyone found an use for imperial guard mortars. Its to weak and not enough ap to bother a space marine. Or u might kill a gaunt or Boy, but tyranids have synapse, and orks have power of the waagh, so almost impossible to pin.

Sgt John Keel
07-06-2005, 22:07
IIRC, Power of the Waaaaagh doesn't help against pinning. But then I might be wrong.

/Adrian

blitz589
07-06-2005, 22:08
It makes them auto pass moral checks

Getz
07-06-2005, 22:23
What are mortars good for...

Have you ever used a Frag missiles? It's a frag missile that costs less, doesn't require line of site and rarely ever misses large squads.

The fact that it causes pinning tests is just gravey.

blitz589
07-06-2005, 22:25
its a small blast for 40pts

Antaeus
07-06-2005, 22:25
Also, they're effective if you can arrange it that the enemy have to davance close togather (therough a bottleneck in the terrain, for instance). Devastation, especially with 3 of the things :evilgrin:

Light troops like Guardians make good targets, and are easier to pin down, taking those blasted Shuriken catapults and heavy weapons out of the equation for a turn.

hood_oz
07-06-2005, 22:46
Also, they're effective if you can arrange it that the enemy have to davance close togather (therough a bottleneck in the terrain, for instance). Devastation, especially with 3 of the things :evilgrin:


yes, non line of sight, and pinning. you just need to keep up the barrage on SM scouts, or the Sm with Heavy weapons, simply to force the tests, if they dont fail, doesnt matter, but if they do, it certainly increases your chances for one turn.

and true, you could go for three missile launchers, but its much more fun planting blasts on enemy armies once you get their range.

I also agree on making sure you know where to hit the enemy to increase the effectiveness of the weapon.

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 01:13
They CAN be useful. I have a full platoon for my Guard, but that was more for the fluff element than any gaming purpose. In large numbers they're quite fun. Anything without a 3+ save hates them.

milmot
08-06-2005, 02:01
How can you not like mortars? Here's a tip to make it more fun. Everytime you fire one, just make a "Phoomp" noise. Mortars have a +10 to fun factor.

Rövhalt
08-06-2005, 06:02
Mortars are cool, simple as that. And it's great fun, it do happens, when a marine dies from a mortar blast. The look on the players face makes me happy. "But... but, it's a mortar..." He he he, fun indeed. Almost as fun as killing one with lasgun fire, but that's asking alot...

zealousheretic
08-06-2005, 06:55
Rovhalt, I like the way you think.

That's almost (but not quite) as funny as one of the most recent games I witnessed, in which I watched 3 terminators fall to the awesome firepower of a mob of Grots.

Essia
08-06-2005, 07:04
It makes them auto pass moral checks

ah, but pinning tests are different to marale tests

...... or have I mixed up versions again?

Lost Primarch
08-06-2005, 07:22
The last game I played, they fired on turn 1, 2 and 3, but failed to hit anything at all (against marines).

On turn 4, they killed 4 assault marines! (they couldn't pin them unfortunatly, they were led by a chaplain). So they made their points back in one turn :evilgrin:

To be honest though, the template is too small to reliably hit squads when firing indirectly, but at the moment its the only thing I have against marine squads that regularly hide behind terrain from my big guns - and they do the job (sometimes)! When I get a basilisk, they'll go.

Tyra_Nid
08-06-2005, 07:36
Almost as fun as killing one with lasgun fire, but that's asking alot...

I often kill Marines with lasgun fire. It seems like i kill more marines with lasguns than with my heavy weapons...


Ive only used mortars once, but they seemed horribly ineffective against the Marines I was playing. Hiding in cover is nice, but Ill only use them against non-3+ armies from now on.

Barbarossa
08-06-2005, 07:53
Well I simply love mortars, so I don't care about their effectiveness.
In fact, I once scored 14 hits on a bunched-up Space Wolves unit hiding in a ruin, but the only one to take a wound was Ragnar Blackmane.
:-(

sigur
08-06-2005, 08:57
I often kill Marines with lasgun fire. It seems like i kill more marines with lasguns than with my heavy weapons...
...



I guess the reason is that you have so much more lasguns than heavy weapons. ;) With the new rules for rapid firing, chances to kill marines with lasgun fire even increased.

This thread really makes me wanna include some mortars into one of my armies. Single mortars may be incapable of hitting anything, but mortar batteries ....*looks at rulebook* also seem to hit nothing...*sigh*..

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 09:20
They do look cool though. I've modelled all mine up with firing pits and camo screens covering them

Getz
08-06-2005, 09:49
So have I. I even wen to the trouble of lowering the floor of the base to give a better impression of a pit.

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 09:56
I built mine up with polyfilla, around a pit-like hole in the centre for the mortar, then made a frame for the camo netting over the top, with the crew in suitable positions

Jedi152
08-06-2005, 10:03
So have I. I even wen to the trouble of lowering the floor of the base to give a better impression of a pit.

I built mine up with polyfilla, around a pit-like hole in the centre for the mortar, then made a frame for the camo netting over the top, with the crew in suitable positions
Sounds good. Any pics? I love the fluffy aspect of mortars. If i ever collect guard, i'll take plenty.

Rövhalt
08-06-2005, 10:13
Yeah, you have teased us, now we need pics.

One cool thing that I like about the new Heavy weapons teams is that you actually get six teams in a box. You just put The missile launchers on normal guards with 25mm bases and presto, you got missile launchers that you can actually use in normal squads. I hate the large base in a squad, it looks silly.

Cypher
08-06-2005, 10:13
To be honest, I've kinda gone off Mortars of late. They just never really seem to hit anything, and when they do they dont do an awful lot of damage. Compare the effectiveness of two squads of Mortar teams, and a Leman Russ (which is actually cheaper), and I know which one Id prefer...

Adept
08-06-2005, 11:00
While I like mortars, and they are undeniably cool, I'm getting sick of not damaging anything with them. Maybe time for some Lascannons.

Cloudscape_online
08-06-2005, 11:30
Mortars are a joke. They need to up the effectiveness for them to be a viable option. like this:

G6-36 S5 AP4 Heavy1/Blast. Better than a heavy flamer in some ways.

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 11:42
I'll get some pics up (along with the rest of my HW teams which are similarly diorama-ed) in about a week or so.

blitz589
08-06-2005, 18:43
To be honest, I've kinda gone off Mortars of late. They just never really seem to hit anything, and when they do they dont do an awful lot of damage. Compare the effectiveness of two squads of Mortar teams, and a Leman Russ (which is actually cheaper), and I know which one Id prefer...
a russ will also pay for it self and absorb alot of fire

Scythe
08-06-2005, 18:56
Well, mortars might not be terribly effective, but they are cheap, fun to fire, and look cool. And there's going to be a time you pin down a unit of assault marines or simular with it. Plus against horde armies, it's almost impossible to miss. ;)

Tyra_Nid
08-06-2005, 23:11
you actually get six teams in a box.

Hell, you can get more than six! Ive heard of guys using ALL the heavy weapons in the box to make teams... If you have sandbags, or can make them, its easy to do emplacements. Only problem is not having enough kneeling legs.

Personally, I put the missle launcher on a standing Cadian (no strut required), the mortars with standing crew (some conversions, modifications needed to make them LOOK like crew) and then las/auto/HB on the final stand. Easy!

blitz589
08-06-2005, 23:50
Nice wa to get your moneys worths

neXus6
08-06-2005, 23:59
Yeah, Its what I did with mine to.
But I've gone off my Guard army a bit, having to take more time to set up and pack away than actually playing isn't fun.

A mortar detachment backed up by griffons and basilisks...that would be a lot of pinning checks.

Inquis. Jaeger
09-06-2005, 00:09
Hell, you can get more than six! Ive heard of guys using ALL the heavy weapons in the box to make teams... If you have sandbags, or can make them, its easy to do emplacements. Only problem is not having enough kneeling legs.

Personally, I put the missle launcher on a standing Cadian (no strut required), the mortars with standing crew (some conversions, modifications needed to make them LOOK like crew) and then las/auto/HB on the final stand. Easy!


This is exactly what I did. The Missile Launchers go on individual cadians in squads or on a weapons team base if they're in a heavy weapons squad. The autocannons go on the tripod, then mortars on the bipods. That's why I have a platoon of them. (thats 3 squads of 3 each and a command squad with 1)

Cloudscape_online
09-06-2005, 00:16
But I've gone off my Guard army a bit, having to take more time to set up and pack away than actually playing isn't fun.

Close Order Drill + Regiment trays+ magnets glued to Regiment trays + 1p piece glued on underside of Cadian.

You'll probably end up with 2 cadians that are not on the regiment tray, but this is a good thing. Heavy weapons teams can be placed right next to the unit and count as the squads HW team. It's what I do, and I take 15 seconds to set up a 35 man strong Troops choice. :D

Cypher
09-06-2005, 06:38
Hehe I had a 2000 pt game between my Guard and an all infantry Templars army. It took us almost an hour and a half to deploy everything. Funnily enough the Templars massacred me in the space of about 45 minutes :cries:

Scythe
09-06-2005, 07:02
Yeah, Its what I did with mine to.
But I've gone off my Guard army a bit, having to take more time to set up and pack away than actually playing isn't fun.


Ahh, but the psychological effect is more than worth the effort of putting up 100+ models (for me at least ;))

Sojourner
09-06-2005, 07:30
Mortars are enormous fun, and they also have the advantage that you can hide them behind big impenetrable walls and so on - they're a nuisance to the enemy, and that alone is worth it.

Also AFAIK a pinning test is not a morale check.

He Who Laughs
09-06-2005, 07:34
Though I don't own a Guard army (yet... ;) ) I think I'd be cool to model up some present day artillery pieces (ie the ones you have to tow into position) and use them as normal mortars.

I reckon you could do it with the help of an autocannon tilted up on an angle, a slightly larger blast shield than the ones in the box, a pair of wheels in the side (ala 2nd ed metal IG heavy weapons) and some carved down sprue poking out of the back for the supports/bracing.

Anyone tried this before?

Rövhalt
09-06-2005, 08:08
Mortars are a joke. They need to up the effectiveness for them to be a viable option. like this:

G6-36 S5 AP4 Heavy1/Blast. Better than a heavy flamer in some ways.

Of course mortars are a joke, that's the reason why you use them, they make your army look cool. Whats the point in winning if your army ain't cool?

Verergoca
09-06-2005, 08:12
Of course mortars are a joke, that's the reason why you use them, they make your army look cool. Whats the point in winning if your army ain't cool?

Sigged...

Mortars are one of the signature weapons of the guard, to me:)

(now to get to collecting the army...)

Sai-Lauren
09-06-2005, 08:49
Hell, you can get more than six! Ive heard of guys using ALL the heavy weapons in the box to make teams... If you have sandbags, or can make them, its easy to do emplacements. Only problem is not having enough kneeling legs.

Yep. :D

Takes some doing, but what I did was (probably should be in painting and terrain really)
ML on a standing trooper (normal base).
Mortar (medium base) and LC (large base) on the stands. Gunners use the kneeling legs.
HB on a standing trooper (medium base - use the grenade launcher arms to support, and add a couple of straps from the guardsmans shoulders to take the weight).
AC - take the feet off a metal missile launcher stand, and place on the AC body on what look like pivot points (near the pin that you're supposed to put into the base). Viola, one recoilless anti-tank rifle (which is what an auto cannon really is).
Again, grenade launcher arms, place the guardsman prone on a large base (use the running legs, and cut a wedge out of the back of the collar to pivot the head looking up).

So, take this and use as a starting point for your own conversions. ;) And no, I can't give pictures.

Anyway, mortars. As a perfect replacement for a Leman Russ, a full mortar heavy weapon platoon hiding behind a wood can't be too far off. All those las cannon your opponent brought because you said you were playing guard, and he had visions of 3 russes, 3 hellhounds and loads of chimera suddenly become next-to useless, especially as he's only got your infantry squads to shoot at (I wouldn't recommend a full mortar army - it could get very boring for your opponent). Just make sure they've got something nearby to intercept any infiltrators.

Sgt John Keel
09-06-2005, 08:49
ah, but pinning tests are different to marale tests

...... or have I mixed up versions again?

I was under that impression too.

...And indeed it is. Pinning is a Leadership test, not a Morale.

/Adrian

Inquis. Jaeger
09-06-2005, 11:51
No, they can use the 'Orky Leadership Mob-check thing' (in lieu of it's technical name, as I don't know it) against pinning checks as well as Morale checks

Scythe
10-06-2005, 15:55
Just to get some things straight: morale and pinning tests are both a kind of leadership test. A leadership test is the broad overspanning category which concerns all tests. There are however different kinds of leadership tests, like a morale test, a pinning test or another kind of test. So rules affecting a morale test do not affect a pinning, or a normal leadership test. However rules that affect leadership tests can always be used, wether it concerns a morale, pinning or other leadership based test.

blitz589
11-06-2005, 01:44
So mortars kinda useless against nids, orks and sms when you could just use a russ, or basilisk

twisted_mentat
11-06-2005, 01:49
This reminds me of the guy at the GW store that was telling me that basalisks are uselesss because you cannot hide behind terrian and shoot indirectly at anything within 30"....so you have to move it into direct fire, and because you can get shot at while your there..that makes it useless..

but this is from a guy who dropped his 'nids when he found out he couldn't make an army of gaunts that flew, fleeted, leaped and had rending claws with hivenodes anymore..

Scythe
11-06-2005, 20:50
So mortars kinda useless against nids, orks and sms when you could just use a russ, or basilisk

Not really. Orks and Nids are usually so crowded that it's impossible to miss most of the time. And 80 pts aren't a huge investment in that case. Space marines are tricky yes, especially when lead by a Ld 10 commander (so use it against those peope with chaplains and librarians), but remember pinning a single squad usually pays for itself.


but this is from a guy who dropped his 'nids when he found out he couldn't make an army of gaunts that flew, fleeted, leaped and had rending claws with hivenodes anymore..

That's really sad... Tough I'm glad he dropped nids then. Such people give Tyranids a bad reputation...

Grumnir
12-06-2005, 01:27
So mortars kinda useless against nids, orks and sms when you could just use a russ, or basilisk

Well if your that much of a fan of basalisks or russes then remember that mortars don't have to take up a heavy slot.

The best aspect of mortars is the indirect ability. This means you can hit anywhere --> particulalry useful against assaulty armies who clump together out of LOS against your main forces.

They can also be set up away and hidden from everything else. This makes them hard to take out and if your opponent does allocate a unit to do this, said unit will probably be taken out of the game for a couple turns,

And you get to make as many 'Fump'-ing noises as your heart desires ;)

x-esiv-4c
12-06-2005, 02:08
Mortars are cool for fluff. I'd imagine that the Elysian drop troops would employ the use of mortars quite often.

Dante
12-06-2005, 08:52
I was under that impression too.

...And indeed it is. Pinning is a Leadership test, not a Morale.

/Adrian

Picking up the Ork Codex and read their special rules would have saved you a lot of hazzle...

sigur
12-06-2005, 09:59
That's really sad... Tough I'm glad he dropped nids then. Such people give Tyranids a bad reputation...

I guess that "eating everyone" isn't also too good for your reputation either. ;)

on topic: I'd maybe also use mortars against Eldar if Guardian-heavy. As posted above, I'd deploy them hidden somewhere behind a big piece of terrain, a bit away from my main force so they act as a distraction and the opponent has to decide if he's sending something to take them out or if he let's them live, risking to lose models to the mortar fire.

Sgt John Keel
12-06-2005, 10:59
Picking up the Ork Codex and read their special rules would have saved you a lot of hazzle...

Reading the thread might save you some hazzle too.


IIRC, Power of the Waaaaagh doesn't help against pinning. But then I might be wrong.


It makes them auto pass moral checks



ah, but pinning tests are different to marale tests

...... or have I mixed up versions again?


I was under that impression too.

...And indeed it is. Pinning is a Leadership test, not a Morale.

As for the record, I don't own an Ork Codex for reference, but I remembered that we (my friends) reached the conclusion that the Power of the Waaagh didn't help against pinning. I obviously was wrong, but with the information given, it was hard to achieve a correct conclusion.

Thanks for giving me a lot of extra work. :rolleyes:

/Adrian

The boyz
12-06-2005, 11:54
You dont need line of site, and can cause units to be pinned and are great against horde armies.

hallon_apl
12-06-2005, 12:06
To be honest, I've kinda gone off Mortars of late. They just never really seem to hit anything, and when they do they dont do an awful lot of damage. Compare the effectiveness of two squads of Mortar teams, and a Leman Russ (which is actually cheaper), and I know which one Id prefer...

Ah! But there we have the real problem with some guns in 40k. They are weak when compared to the too powerful ordnance guns. Comparing the Demonhunters codex with the Guard codex shows you that a Leman Russ battle tank has not far from a (BFG) melta torpedo and a Demolisher cannon is actually a lance! That is wrong. :(

On topic: The mortars, pared with grenade launchers and auto cannons are the trademark heavy weapons of the Imperial Guard IMO.

Scythe
12-06-2005, 16:19
Ah! But there we have the real problem with some guns in 40k. They are weak when compared to the too powerful ordnance guns. Comparing the Demonhunters codex with the Guard codex shows you that a Leman Russ battle tank has not far from a (BFG) melta torpedo and a Demolisher cannon is actually a lance! That is wrong. :(


That doesn't mean the battle cannon is not represented right tough. I'd rather conclude that the melta torpedo and lance are underpowered. But then such fire shouldn't have a place in a 40k game at their real power. They would probably vaporise anything on the battlefield with a single shot.