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View Full Version : A $10K 40K super-tournement?



Warlord Gnashgrod
08-06-2005, 15:33
First let me say, no you didn't missread the title. Someone I know is considering running large-scale 40K tourny where the prizes will be part of $10,000. How exactly he plans to break this up amongst the 1st place, 2nd, etc I don't know.

Second, let me say that no, I'm not the one who plans to run this tourny. I may be crazy, but I'm not that crazy! :p ;) Also, the guy isn't absolutely sure if it'll be done or not. He wants to do it, but he's wondering about potential interest in it and such. He has not made any sort of true final arrangements for it(like pick a specific date, etc). He's been posting his idea for this on several other boards, wondering what the general consensus on it is. I thought I'd post it here on Portent myself.

So what do you all think? Frankly, I think it's a bad idea. He'll have no problems getting people to come and play in it, I'm sure. It's going to cost $250 to enter, but with a cash prize in the thousand-dollar range, I'm sure there'll be interest in it. The trouble is what type of gamers are going to be interested in it.

With such a substantial cash prize at stake, this tourney is going to bring out the absolute worst competitive streak in the participating gamers. There will undoubtedly by super rules-Nazis, uber-cheesy army lists, people who will use the rules in a rather unique fashion for whatever edge they can get, and of course, blatant outright cheating. Both subtle(like using loaded dice) unsubtle(bringing illegal army lists), and everything in between. This is going to utterly ruin the tourney, in my opinion. Yes, there's always some rules nazis and such at tourneys, but the scale and amount of it will reach unbelievable heights at this tourney this guy wants to do. And I don't see how he's going to be able to keep tight control over it. There will be many people wanting to play, if it actually gets done, and one person certainly can't control it all. I really don't think that he considered all the ramifications of doing a tourney on such a grand scale.

Anyway, that's my personal opinion on the subject. I've told him myself this as well. Whether it has had any deterring effect or not, I really can't say. It doesn't seem to have affected him, though. We've also given him suggestions on how best to do this, but once again I have no real idea if he's been considering them. But anyway, what is your opinion on this? I myself am quite curious.

Anvils Hammer
08-06-2005, 16:15
i think its an awefull idea, for the same reaons you have posted, when you are playnig for that much money, in a game that requires cooperation between two players, it just doesnt work.

and besides, you would need atleast 40 people to raise that prize money, and it would be a horrible place to compete because i garantee there are atleast 40 power gaming cheesy cheating bastards who would do anything to win a game.

glimli
08-06-2005, 16:22
forget bad sports youre gonna need armed gaurds when people start throwing models and trying got hit other pkayers!

the only way i can see this happening is if every table has an impartial umpire to address all rules arguments and alocate the sports marks for each player. aslo youd need a lawyer to come up with some indemnity clause so people dont start suing over wrong rules descisons or whatever.

tzeentchgiant
08-06-2005, 16:24
What a cool idea, but as long as it remains an idea it will be cool, as you mentioned it would be difficult to police, if it were to become a reality.

You could suggest to your friend he

- limits number of players to 50-100
- provides all exiptment
- checks all army lists (sent in beforehand, and checked on the day)
- has judges to make sure nothing goes amiss
- Organise it proffesionally to avoid anything going wrong that would be out of your control (players getting upset being one thing)

Very cool idea, instead of a world poker tournament, it could be world warhammer tour on Friday nights.

TG

Antaeus
08-06-2005, 16:32
*Scratches chin, thoughtfully*

A few years ago, there was a White Dwarf article about a guy who ran a Warmaster tournament where the armylists were randomly generated for the players by the tourney staff. If you could implement that kind of system for a 40K tourney...that's what I call a test of generalship. And luck, I guess. If that tournament went ahead a system like that would make it far mreo interesting I reckon.

But in terms of the idea, I don't like it. Wargames aren't meant to be for cash prizes or material rewards. They're meant to be for having a good time, to have a fun game and to meet some new people.

tzeentchgiant
08-06-2005, 16:40
I would consider making money from the hobby fun, and I'msure most players would enjoy the challenge of facing world class players competeing, and I'm sure they'd enjoy it even more if they won.

TG

Sojourner
08-06-2005, 17:24
No. No. When you introduce cash, there are grounds for legal action. Because the game by it's very nature is ambiguous, it's a terrible idea for a high stakes tournament.

Inquis. Jaeger
08-06-2005, 17:48
True. He'd be leaving himself open for all kinds of liability. Besides, even if he attracts and plans for 100 players, at $250 a pop, once you take off the $10,000 prize money, cost of hiring the venue, cost of equipment, tables, scenary, rules books/gaming equipment, PA system, assistants to actually run the thing, cost of hiring a lawyer to draw up the Playing Agreement (absolutely necessary), etc etc, he's not going to end up making much money on it at all really.

Adept
08-06-2005, 17:48
It's a nice idea.

UInfortunately, GW rules writing is so lax that it is effectively impossible. The tourney organiser would have to clarify and write FAQ's for all races, covering all loopholes, by himself. And these would have to be well understood by all players.

All equipement would need to be provided, and there would need to be a judge on each table to make calls on cocked dice, just-in-or-not range calls, etc.

Thud
08-06-2005, 18:21
It's a nice idea.

Is it?

Ask yourself this: "Were I to play for 10,000 dollars, would I play just for fun? What would my armylist end up looking like? Would I be a good sport over winning? Would my opponants be?"

t-tauri
08-06-2005, 18:39
Wargaming is competitive but it's not tight enough in it's rules to play for money. There would be too many differing interpretations. Magic where the rules are relatively simple lends itself to tournament play. 40k doesn't.

What would the person putting up the cash get out of it? The progamers in computing or Magic play for money largely put up by the manufacturers who get publicity from the games. While GW would get the publicity I'm not sure they'd want to be showcased in the kind of cut-throat cheese mongering environment that would be engendered.

I wouldn't want to pay serious amounts of money for a series of games against the kinds of gamers who'd enter that type of tournament.

Master Fulgrim
08-06-2005, 19:02
On the other hand: Who is paying 250$ for a game, wich bases on dice-throwing? I wouldnt. The possibility to get something back for your money is nearly zero. Those hardcore-cheesebeardwearers will take the money and kill all fun for the game itself. So i would rather spent the money for something else, like a nice holiday, new clothes, some fancy minis or whatever. If he really want to spent this much money for the gaming-community, he should rather open a gamingclub with fixed tables. So he could take fees from the clubmembers and rather do some smaller tournaments up and then. Wait... a new idea had sprung into my mind! Whats about "inter-club tournaments", where only members of gamingclubs are allowed to play. The parttaking gamingclubs could send a group of gamers, who fight together as a team. So all points of the team will added together and not John Dork the powergamer might win the price, but team "Revenge of Ultramar" from gamingclub Underunkton for example. This might decrease the number of Powergamers, who seldom are interested in social club activity ;). Hey, and if you are really good, you might even do it as some kind of campaign :). What do you think about it?

Master Fulgrim

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-06-2005, 19:37
besides, you would need atleast 40 people to raise that prize money, and it would be a horrible place to compete because i garantee there are atleast 40 power gaming cheesy cheating bastards who would do anything to win a game.

Actually, the guy already has the money. He just happens to have $10 grand that he say's he can spend 'any way he chooses'. This is the way he wants to spend it. The participant $250 cost is for hotel accommodations, the rental space for where the tourney will be held, catering, etc etc.

He heard about a monopoly tourney that was done with a $10,000 cash prize for like the top 3 winners, and decided that it would be a cool idea for 40K. Let's just say he's been getting a lot of flak about it from everywhere he's posted about it.

But like I said, the guy's crazy. ;)

Olith
08-06-2005, 19:49
We were actually discussing this here (http://portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3415) just the other day. Introducing a cash prize changes everything in which the game should be about.

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-06-2005, 19:54
That's very interesting, Olith. But this is slightly different. This is an independant guy who want's to do the whole thing by himself. At most, it would be a sanctioned tourny, but otherwise GW would have no part in the running of it.

alterion
08-06-2005, 19:58
can i have his addres.. oh and everyone's bgb's too.. i need to findd him hunt him down and hit him over the head with the rulebook until they break.. that's right all 2000 books.. in order.. it is that stupid an idea.. not to mention that that is a contravention of copyright as the winner would be making off a gw product and so it would be ILLEGAL... there that should stop him.. ( if this logic is flawed plesase don't point it out.. it would be better for the hobby)

cubbster
08-06-2005, 20:34
I think that the idea of playing 40k for money is rediculous- given the competitiveness and powergaming that goes on already for 'friendly' games it would not be fun at all!

And as many people have already pointed out you owuld be bound to get some disgruntled idiot sueing the guy for a wrong decision/mental anguish/ not letting him win etc... ;-))

Scythe
08-06-2005, 20:47
Actually, the guy already has the money. He just happens to have $10 grand that he say's he can spend 'any way he chooses'. This is the way he wants to spend it. The participant $250 cost is for hotel accommodations, the rental space for where the tourney will be held, catering, etc etc.

He heard about a monopoly tourney that was done with a $10,000 cash prize for like the top 3 winners, and decided that it would be a cool idea for 40K. Let's just say he's been getting a lot of flak about it from everywhere he's posted about it.

But like I said, the guy's crazy. ;)

Wait.... he already has the money and just wants to spend it? Everyone their own I guess....

But why not simply hold about 100 tournaments with the more reasonable $100 as price money? Or just spend those $10 grand on the accomodations and get some nice people to play a tournament in a good atmosphere instead of gaming with just a bunch of powergamers?

Or just send me the money if he really doesn't know what to do with it.... :D

t-tauri
08-06-2005, 21:15
If he's just desparate to spend it then Portent, Turnsignals, dakka or any of a hundred other gaming sites could use the cash. Donate it to a local game club, buy some figures for some destitute gamers. If he's really got $10k and nothing he needs then there are far more worthy real world charities than 40k tournaments. Barnardo's, blindness charities, African famine-all need $10k more than some powergamer.

Adept
09-06-2005, 02:41
A lot of people seem to be saying that the idea of competing for money automatically precludes good sportsmanship or a fun game.

I have to disagree. At the moment, GW rules are very hazy. There are many instances in almost every game I play where we as players have to make judgement calls. Should I re-roll that dice? Is that charge just in, or just out? Exactly how many models are under that template? And so on. When playing for a large sum of money, these issues will devolve into arguments.

But these issues can be solved through Tourney packs which eliminate rules queries. and through having a judge at each and every table whose job it is to make the games run smoothly. He makes the calls for ranges, he checks to see how many models are under a template, etc. There is no room for argument. The judges decision is final.

Many sports and games are played competitively at high levels without devolving into screaming matches. The only reason 40K currently couldn't is because the rules are so shaky they depend on player co-operation.

Scythe
09-06-2005, 07:59
That's a side effect of the huge variety possible in the game. I agree the rules could have been tighter, but only to a certain level. In a game which uses measurring tape, variable army lists and hunderds of pages containing all the rules possible and judgement dependent things like LOS, gaming really competive becomes difficult. And you can never clear up all those queries.

Ouroboros
09-06-2005, 13:02
This is only a good idea if you rig the hall to explode once it's filled up with the absolute worst powergamers on the planet.

I'm sure you and your friend can buy quite a bit of assorted high explosives with $10,000 .

Warlord Gnashgrod
09-06-2005, 14:04
This is only a good idea if you rig the hall to explode once it's filled up with the absolute worst powergamers on the planet.

I'm sure you and your friend can buy quite a bit of assorted high explosives with $10,000 .


ROFLMAO! That's pretty good, Ouroboros. I actually almost like the idea.

But to clarify, he's not absolutely certain that he'll run this tourney. He seems to be inclined to do so, but it isn't set in stone. And with all the issues and complications involed that his friends(like me) have brought up, and that have been told to him from message boards he mentioned this idea on, it's possible he'll start to have second thoughts.

Frankly, I can think of many better uses for $10,000, if I had that kind of money available. ;)

Warlord Gnashgrod
09-06-2005, 14:08
Wait.... he already has the money and just wants to spend it? Everyone their own I guess....

But why not simply hold about 100 tournaments with the more reasonable $100 as price money? Or just spend those $10 grand on the accomodations and get some nice people to play a tournament in a good atmosphere instead of gaming with just a bunch of powergamers?

Or just send me the money if he really doesn't know what to do with it.... :D


Yes, that's right. He already has the prize money.

I actually mentioned the idea of holding several different tourneys for both 40K and Fantasy to him spaced over a large period of time myself, through the egroup message board we're both a part of. I've had no response from him on this, though. But it has been mentioned to him. Maybe he's considering it.

Inquis. Jaeger
09-06-2005, 14:12
why doesn't he just organise an ordinary tournament or twelve and make a bit of money off it? You know - to make money you've got to have money. Well he's got the money...

Warlord Gnashgrod
09-06-2005, 14:15
He did try to organize one reg tourney at first at this one game store just a few weeks ago. He wanted to anyway, but this game store was less than cooperative. Then he came up with this idea.

I can't help but think he just wanted to see what kind of reaction he would get by saying he was planning to run a $10K tourney. It seems unlikely that he he wouldn't have realized just the sort of work this would involve, as he has run a 'normal' RTT before. But who knows?

Adept
09-06-2005, 15:18
On the other hand, regular tournies here usually have a couple of hundred dollars worth of miniatures as the top prize, with smaller prizes for second and third, best painted, best army, etc.

Running ten of these over a year might be more feasible, and actually generate some income to boot.

scirmast
09-06-2005, 17:10
I think 40k is so unbalanced right now that such tournament wouldn't work out too well. The rules allow for so much powergaming that there is no tomorrow. Armies are unbalanced both internally (some units are very useful, while others are useless), and externally (Blood Angels vs Thousand Sons, place your bets now!). Plus some rules are so confusingly written that they allow for rule-nazis to exist.

BUT, if a super tourney will be held, I suggest that a strong emphasis is put to both composition and generalship. And that the prize money should be divided between the top ten players. This would reduce the amount of power gaming as the first prize would not be that big.

I think what GW should do is to communicate more with the players, and view the winning armylist to make notes what is broken and what is not. Then they could adjust the Codexes (and maybe the game rules in general) afterhand, like they did with the Dark Eldar (and are possibly doing with Tau). This would lead to a better game, that would work both as a competitive game with even cash prizes, as well as a fun clash between friendly players.

Lord of ???
09-06-2005, 19:30
Its a bad idea

First of all where would you run it?

Secondly How many gamers do you know that have a spare $250 lying around to go and effectively gamble?

Thirdly it will cost an arm and a leg to hire Security aswell as an armoured car to prevent a robbery or theft of the winnings or the initial gate takings.

Fourthly it will be an absolute hell hole. You think a some gamers are bad when they lose a game, how about you get them to think about losing $250 aswell as a few games?

You will make more money by setting up a booth for people to go and pay for someone to listen to them having a whinge about how biased it is, how flawed the system is, how bad the judges are, etc etc etc.

Warlord Gnashgrod
10-06-2005, 15:04
How many gamers do you know that have a spare $250 lying around to go and effectively gamble?

Well, the total cost of going to a GT isn't that much cheaper, if at all cheaper. And many people go to those.

Of course, GTs are professionally and excellently run. I have no idea how this would go. Obviously he's going to need help running it.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 15:05
40k will take a massive turn for the worst if you introduce money, all forms of sportsmen-ship gets the boot.

Sons of Russ
10-06-2005, 18:11
you need 3 referees for each game. One on each side of the board to keep a close watch on players, and a 3rd to break tie-breakers on rules decisions....

Not much fun, to be honest... :eyebrows:

alterion
10-06-2005, 18:16
again IMO it is ILLEGAL.. i will personally get gw's rules lawyers on him if he did that.. he would deserve it..