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Strike Anywhere
19-05-2006, 15:06
This is a personal tirade, to vent what has been bothering me for too long. Undead of non-human nature.

This includes clans of vampiric skaven, every second undead players fluff which includes a lizardman/dark elf/snotling being bitten by a vampire in its death throes and becoming an 'insta-get' by the next morning.

It really grinds my gears when I see the cursed company, and undead orcs and undead saurus. I understand warhammer is an avenue of creativity, but despite this I'm still going to give my two cents on this topic. I sum this up in three key points.

- The curse of vampirism is a human disease. It unleashes the dark and bestial side of humanity. No other races are afflicted by this. The only other race I can see being susceptible to this curse may be the elves, because of their similar desires and character faults.

- Thralls and gets is a long ritual process. It's like adopting a kid and raising him as your own. Vampires do not go out biting everything on the battlefield and making them all vampires. Vampirism is a coveted power amongst their kind, not shared easily. The Genevieve novels are testament to this, but not the only source (See the Inheritance etc).

- Necromancers and vampires only raise human skeletons and zombies because they see the winds of death as a sea of human souls. For whatever reason, only human undead answer the call of their masters. Dead lizardmen, skaven, orcs etc. simply do not/cannot answer. This also explains why necromancy does not summon roadkill, dead cattle or even dead plants. Simply put, humans can tap into the psychic energy and projections of other dead humans.


Well that's my opinion. For me, it clears up all the 'what if and why not' questions regarding undead.

Hideous Loon
19-05-2006, 15:21
But cannot Necromancers raise animals? Then, where do Dire Wolves and Fell Bats come from?

Secondly, the Cursed Company works a it differently from a regular Undead army, since it's Wosshisname's Fell Sword of Choppin' that raises the soldiers. Therefore, it's rather feasible that it should "convert" other races as well as humans.

I agree with you on the "It takes a while to make a Vampyre" part.

ryng_sting
19-05-2006, 17:23
Liber Necris will probably sort your concerns out. It's out soon.

Finnblood
19-05-2006, 17:57
The novel Necromancer spends like two chapters in preparing and reanimating a roadkill. I think stuff can be reanimated, why not? The necros summon the winds of chaos to retrieve the confused souls of the dead to possess their bodies once again. And sometimes I think they simply summon a very minor daemon or such to possess the corpse.

Anything can be reanimated, even stuff that never existed - like the Ushabti.

But Saurus Ghosts, that's disturbing! (yay, i'll paint em white and give em a swarm base! Look, they're lizard-ghosts!)

Arnizipal
19-05-2006, 18:00
- Necromancers and vampires only raise human skeletons and zombies because they see the winds of death as a sea of human souls. For whatever reason, only human undead answer the call of their masters. Dead lizardmen, skaven, orcs etc. simply do not/cannot answer. This also explains why necromancy does not summon roadkill, dead cattle or even dead plants. Simply put, humans can tap into the psychic energy and projections of other dead humans.

Raising zombies and skeletons has nothing to do with souls. All the spell really does is animate a dead body. It could any body really wheather human, elf dwarf or lizardman. The souls has long gone, it's just that the body is still moving.

Only wights, wraiths, banshees and such (generally the more powerful undead) have a shred of their souls remaining.

EDIT: This thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6658) might help.

Reabe
19-05-2006, 18:16
The only reason we see just human skeletons is because they are the "most common" in the Old World where most of the battles happen.

It would be cool if GW released a plastic "Un-human skeleton" box kit with Skaven, Orc, Dwarf and Saurus skeleton warriors.

Hideous Loon
19-05-2006, 18:21
Yes, that'd be very cool indeed. Put that on your list of "awesome GW things that would raise sales obscenely but will never happen because GW are cheapskate fools". That list is rather long, as I recall.

jansenm
19-05-2006, 20:10
hmmm....
interesting theory
but I do think anything can be reanimated, steeds, nightmares etc. and even plants that treekin springs to my mind

I mean a vampire doesnt just bite people on their juggular viens, feed, then the victim turms into a vampire (that only works for the zombie plague)
A vampire chooses a worthy opponant and give him/her/it a blood kiss i.e give part of the vampires blood and kisses the victim (also no you can not jut steal their blood as they have very little running around their bodies.)

however vamprism changes for one book to another so who knows gw can have vampire dwarfs. but I think these are just fan made conversions anyway to stick their army from the rest of the crowd.

btw the curse company is richter kruegers curse it all has to do with wat he kills with blight (his magic weapon) but if you want to be "realistic" he shouldnt have skeletons at all they should rise as zombies :D

Hideous Loon
19-05-2006, 20:18
Well, not really Zombies, as it were. The Cursed Company blurb I've read states that Blight (thanks!) makes the flesh of its opponent blacken and wither, making it fall off. This turns the opponent, be it human, Elf or Ogre, into a skeleton. The magic of Herr Krueger keeps it moving, but does nothing to improve the situation of his minions.

jansenm
19-05-2006, 21:11
yeah! I couldnt really remember but its all comming back to me I read it when it first came out :P

N0-1_H3r3
19-05-2006, 23:00
This includes clans of vampiric skaven, every second undead players fluff which includes a lizardman/dark elf/snotling being bitten by a vampire in its death throes and becoming an 'insta-get' by the next morning.

To be honest, I can't actually see the problem with that single clan of vampiric skaven. In part because I never saw them as actual vampires - their proximity to the necromancy-blasted lands of Sylvania altered them, resulting in vampire-like traits, such as increased longevity and the need/tendancy to consume blood instead of their normal food, without them actually being part of that ancient and specific legacy started by Queen Neferata in long-dead Lahmia.

Rathgar
20-05-2006, 06:53
- The curse of vampirism is a human disease. It unleashes the dark and bestial side of humanity. No other races are afflicted by this. The only other race I can see being susceptible to this curse may be the elves, because of their similar desires and character faults.

Similar character traits my ****, Skaven are more like humans than elves. Elves have entirely different drives and weakness to humans. Their emotional range is much greater and they just think weird. Crazy pointy eared tree-huggers that they are. It’s hard for us humans to talk about how they think. Someone once compared humans in comparison to elves as having a mental disorder, they can relate to each other but an elf can never fully get humans (“mentally ill people”) to grasp some concepts etc. Their brains can make connections ours are incapably of. They’re alien, and therefore almost as bad as wizards, and should be burned should they come to our village, poking their noses in where its not wanted!

As to cross-race transfer of the curse, we hit the fundamental problem that Vampirism is not very well described. Except in the buffyism that Space wrote in WD a while back. That vampirism is infection by a parasitic sprit or daemon. Theoretically therefore anything with a soul can be infected… so that's the all the mortal races right there. But that just sits as wrong with me… Maybe there’s something specific to humans that opens them up to this sort of thing?

Lord Lucifer
20-05-2006, 08:37
My view is the Elixir of Life backfired for the poor humans
It's passed on (comparatively) commonly amongst humans

How it affects the other races I do not know, but would like it to have at least SOME different reaction, given Elves and Dwarfs are different in more than just appearance

prince olthin
20-05-2006, 09:56
anyone with a soul ey, how about vampire Slann that would be cheesy :cheese:

Eldacar
20-05-2006, 10:28
How it affects the other races I do not know, but would like it to have at least SOME different reaction, given Elves and Dwarfs are different in more than just appearance
I can certainly imagine those two races having a different reaction to the disease, since while they might be similar to humans, they are biologically different. Perhaps a human could come back to "unlife", but an elf or Dwarf would just die?

jansenm
20-05-2006, 11:07
anyone with a soul ey, how about vampire Slann that would be cheesy :cheese:

the thing that pops in my mind is that fat vampire in blade 1 that eats babies and in sharge of the library

Hideous Loon
20-05-2006, 11:07
Olthin: That wouldn't quite work. A Slann is one of the most heavily protected beings in the world, being guarded 24/7 by creatures designed to protect him, and around him is a whole city filled with yet more creatures designed to do the same thing. And around this city is league upon league with dense, savage jungle that makes the Jurassic Park look like a petting zoo. And to travel there, you need to know where it is, which is about as easy as finding a needle in a haystack the size of K2.

And to top that off, Slann and Vampires don't exactly have the same state of mind, the Slann focus on knowledge and meditation, while the Vampires focus on victory now and satisfaction of their blood hunger.

Rathgar
20-05-2006, 11:10
I can certainly imagine those two races having a different reaction to the disease, since while they might be similar to humans, they are biologically different. Perhaps a human could come back to "unlife", but an elf or Dwarf would just die?

Now that I like, as long as it’s a particularly gribbley death.

I agreed with Eldacar… something’s very wrong here :p

The Pale Lady
20-05-2006, 11:38
Ok, heres how it stands :::

The Elixir of Life opened up each master to infiltration by a demon. This much is cannon. Now its the most logical train of thought therefore that when a master bit and began to enthrall a victim, what that entails (or 'entrails' :D) is him passing on a portion of the demon through the blood into his victim. This results in a vampire, but a less powerful one nonetheless because he has less of the demon in his blood, and it is the demon which grants the vampire his strengths and traits.
So as you go down the generations, the vampires get progessively weaker. This we know too. Now, Im sure a vampire can grow in strength, and I would imagine this is done through the repeated feeding of blood. The blood nourishes the demon within and it will perhaps grow stronger by the blood, but it is still only a smaller portion of the demon than within the vampire's sire and so its maximum power will be less.
What else needs to be covered? Hm ok, why a vampire needs to drink.
The demon within needs to be fed and nourished to remain strong and grant the vampire its powers. Without it, it will diminish and its ability to sustain the corpse it in inhabits will lessen. The vampire will appear to wither and become a decrepit shell of its former self, never dying but shrivelled and weak. By absorbing the blood again, the demon will recover and regenerate the body it lives in, plumping out the flesh and making it the immortal, beautiful vampire that we recognize most of them as.

The result of all this goes to say that the disease of vampirism revolves around the passing on of the demon, and i see no reason why this cannot be passed onto none human beings. Perhaps if the body is much larger, the demon will require alot more blood to sustain it (think vampire ogre or saurus?) and if much smaller, much less blood is needed (vampire skaven?) althjough the skaven would still feel the 'need' to feed, as vampires retain some of their former characters and the drive to eat is a strongly imbedded in the skaven psyche.

Elannion
20-05-2006, 12:41
To me we have to look back at what it was that made them vampires, the elixir. Now this was designed by nagash as a human to make himself immortal, now he managed this but his elixir was so inexact that it didn't work the way he wanted and backfired.

Now heres the theoretical bit, humans all have a certain chemistry in their bodys and a certain way magic works, other races are more resistant to magic, some are less in the material world than they are in the spirit world, each race has a different make up and some are inherintaly magical so their chemistry and magical chemistry would be different as they all are designed for different things, what might kill an elf might be great for an ogre. Thusly you could see that something designed to make humans immortal would react differently to the magic and chemistry of each race.

gorenut
20-05-2006, 16:40
I disagree with what races can be raised as zombies and skeletons. I'm sure most races aren't safe from fighting as mindless corpse.

However, I totally agree with the vampire bit... where people always make up stories of the vampire just biting the said creature before he dies, etc. Even if non-human vampires are possible, vampires are very selective on who they turn.

Arnizipal
20-05-2006, 17:02
Ok, heres how it stands :::

The Elixir of Life opened up each master to infiltration by a demon. This much is cannon.
No it isn't. :eyebrows:

MvS
20-05-2006, 18:55
No indeed.

The Pale Lady
20-05-2006, 19:03
Hmmm...im SURE Ive read that in a White Dwarf, the ones chronicalling what happened to Neferata and the other masters in becoming vampires and the ensuing fall of Lahmia

ExquisiteEvil
20-05-2006, 22:30
No indeed.

Hey MvS!

You helped write the Liber Necris didnt you?

Give us you view.....please

Revlid
20-05-2006, 23:30
No indeed.

"Neferata was foolish in her pride and believed that she could succeed where Nagash had failed. She followed his macabre rituals and created an elixir; a liquid as black as night that stank of grave dust. Uttering a prayer to her ancestors, she drank deep of it. For a moment nothing happened. Then she was gripped by a fearsome pain, her veins screaming with agony. The torture turned to ecstasy, her senses filled with vibrancy, her body quivering with unnatural energy. She felt her heart stop beating, though she continued to live and breathe.

Suddenly she felt her soul pulled to another world, the world of undeath. A whole new plane of existence opened and her mind raced as she marvelled at the beautiful images of the spirits of the dead. Her initial exhilaration was replaced by stark fear as Neferata realised that her weak and fragile soul attracted these spirits who surrounded her, seeking the warmth of the living.

They sought the essence of life that they once possessed and tore at her unprotected soul. Neferata tried to fend them off but was unprepared for such an assault and before long one spirit broke through her defences. When the Queen awoke, she found herself in the chamber where she had collapsed, but could feel the malicious spirit inside her. It was thirsty and sought the warm blood of the living to ease its pain."

So a bloodthirsty spirit of some kind enters the dead-ish body of the drinker/get, causing it to thirst for blood, etc. Sounds kinda like a daemon to me.

In any case, of course non-humans can be animated. Winged Nightmares, Nightmares, Zombie Dragons, Constructs, Fell Bats, Dire Wolves, Tomb Swarms, the Dwarf and Dog Zombie in Mordheim, Shambling Hulks and Rotting Leviathans, Dust Goblins... The list goes on and on...

Maybe Vampirism is a human-specific virus. But Viruses mutate. Its more the sheer quantity of Elven Vampires I despise. There seems to be a logic of:
Elf = t3h ninja
Vampire = t3h ninja
Elf Vampire = omgt3hsplode!!!

Eldacar
21-05-2006, 03:27
Now that I like, as long as it’s a particularly gribbley death.
Perhaps something happening on the order of Agent Smith in the Matrix? All those funny things going to his head and eventually killing him? I can see that happening, or perhaps odd colours flitting around the skin of the Elf/Dwarf as their body fights against the disease. Since elves are attuned to the Winds of Magic, I can even see some sort of magical reaction taking place. Or maybe every blood vessel in their body could explode at the same time...

*wanders off to avoid letting his overactive imagination take control*

;)


I agreed with Eldacar… something’s very wrong here :p
Yes. Yes, indeed.

A neutral shade of black.
21-05-2006, 10:23
I disagree with what races can be raised as zombies and skeletons. I'm sure most races aren't safe from fighting as mindless corpse.

Indeed. Zombies and skeletons are just bags of flesh and piles of bone stuck together through magic. You can have zombie squirrels if you want - it doesn't matter where the original is from, it can still be turned into a zombie or skeleton. The only issue is whether or not the inherent magic resistance of some races remains active within the corpse, in which case you'd have a harder time raising their bodies.

As for elven/dwarfen vampires, I agree with Eldacar - I personally see the curse killing them and not bringing them into undeath due to their inherent magic resistance. Remember that the Blood Kiss isn't systematic - a bite does not turn someone into a vampire; they have to be drained dry of their blood to the point where they die and then fed a little bit of the vampire's blood.

Elannion
21-05-2006, 11:21
I think it depends heavily on the magic that reanimates these creatures. For instance zombie dwarfs in mordheim could be simply the sheer power and magical energy of the wryd stone that reanimates their corpse.

Tomb king magic is different and personally i believe it works not from the reanimation of the bones but the souls comming back, this is why you only get those who served loyally under the king come back and not a random mish mash of dead. Remember that its the spirit of a liche priest that is in a tomb scorpion.

It depends really on what you think is happening, one thing to remember though about the animating animals example is that probably the make up of animals is more similar to humans than elves for instance, horses have the same sort of mortality as humans and probably about the same make up and such where as elves you see as somewhat more magical in their makeup, tied inbetween the worlds and less mortal, and probably an elf is a whole lot more complex that a human.

I think maybe it could be done but you might have less control over it if you were doing cross race necromancy.

Arnizipal
21-05-2006, 18:20
It depends really on what you think is happening, one thing to remember though about the animating animals example is that probably the make up of animals is more similar to humans than elves for instance, You're kidding right? I think Elves and Dwarfs are a lot closer to humans than for instance birds are. :eyebrows:

The magic of the Tomb Kings is not pure necromancy. It's a mix of divine and arcane magic IIRC. They can't raise fresh corpses like necromancers can. They only dead/unliving things they can animate have to be prepared ritually.
For instance, the skeleton warriors and horsemen have all been ritually buried alongside their king to serve them in the afterlife.

@Revlid: Where does that info come from? But anyway, if MvS says it's wrong, it's wrong ;)

Revlid
21-05-2006, 18:40
The info is from the Games Workshop UK Website, under the background article: "Origins of the Vampires".

RobC
21-05-2006, 19:12
If that's what GW are saying nowadays, then they've not only dropped the ball but punctured it and set fire to the pitch. What is described there is a case of possession, and absolutely nothing to do with vampirism as known in any other part of the Warhammer setting.

Of course, it may just be an attempt at metaphor gone horrible awry.

The Pale Lady
21-05-2006, 19:53
If that's what GW are saying nowadays, then they've not only dropped the ball but punctured it and set fire to the pitch. What is described there is a case of possession, and absolutely nothing to do with vampirism as known in any other part of the Warhammer setting.


Yes, it might appear to be possession, but this is only the case of what the elxir did to the vampires, and does not happen with every new generation. Refer to my previous post, and exchange the word demon for spirit lol. That large info posted by Ravlid is what I was referring to.

RobC
22-05-2006, 08:29
Possession is possession, whether by a daemon or some other spirit.

Revlid
22-05-2006, 10:15
It seems, however, that rather than displacing the soul of the human, or staying seperate to it, the spirit has melded with the human soul, changing it slightly and giving it bloodthirsty tendencies.
A bit different from straight-out possession.

Elannion
22-05-2006, 13:10
You're kidding right? I think Elves and Dwarfs are a lot closer to humans than for instance birds are.

In alot of cases they probably are similar, for instance and especially in this case, cast a spell on a dwarf and dwarves are resistant to magic, a spell on an elf may be different because of how magical they are but cast a spell on a horse or a human and it probably would have about the same effect. In terms of their make up and their minds dwarfs and elves have something completly different to what humans and other animals do. In terms of their metabolism and their organ systems and such, the differance between dwarfs and humans at most is probably not any more than a human from a cow. Although they look similar on the outside (though not 100%), thats about where the similarity stops.

Rathgar
26-05-2006, 11:05
If that's what GW are saying nowadays, then they've not only dropped the ball but punctured it and set fire to the pitch. What is described there is a case of possession, and absolutely nothing to do with vampirism as known in any other part of the Warhammer setting.

Of course, it may just be an attempt at metaphor gone horrible awry.

There is a solution. We could burn all copies of White Dwarf 256.

Lord Zarkov
26-05-2006, 12:02
It seems, however, that rather than displacing the soul of the human, or staying seperate to it, the spirit has melded with the human soul, changing it slightly and giving it bloodthirsty tendencies.
A bit different from straight-out possession.
It seems GW have been reading too much Anne Rice; Vampires seem to be going alot in the direction of in her series. this possesion thing sounds remarkably like what happpened to 'those who must be kept' to create vampire in The Vampire Lestat

Eldacar
26-05-2006, 12:03
We could burn all copies of White Dwarf 256.
It's WD257 for me. ;)

ryng_sting
27-05-2006, 10:35
I wouldn't take the story quite so literally; the word possession is used because this is how Neferata referenced the experience. We now know that vampires have no soul in the aethyr - it's totally within their physical form once they become a vampire. What Neferata may have experienced was precisely this - her own twisted soul heading to its permanent residence.

RobC
27-05-2006, 12:10
But surely any spell-casting creature needs at least part of its essence in the warp to be able to use magic?

Eldacar
29-05-2006, 02:00
But surely any spell-casting creature needs at least part of its essence in the warp to be able to use magic?
That's what I would have guessed. It appears to be different now, though.

EDIT: My post count is now exactly 1337... I feel ashamed. :(

RobC
29-05-2006, 10:43
Didn't MvS write this book? Can someone break out the pentagram and summon him up?

Lockjaw
07-10-2008, 23:03
Similar character traits my ****, Skaven are more like humans than elves. Elves have entirely different drives and weakness to humans. Their emotional range is much greater and they just think weird. Crazy pointy eared tree-huggers that they are. Itís hard for us humans to talk about how they think. Someone once compared humans in comparison to elves as having a mental disorder, they can relate to each other but an elf can never fully get humans



and dwarves, you tell me humans don't have a desire for gold and ale?

Abhorash
07-10-2008, 23:11
and dwarves, you tell me humans don't have a desire for gold and ale?

Go practise necromancery to graveyards and leave forums alone...

Lamhirh
08-10-2008, 00:02
Elves have entirely different drives and weakness to humans. Their emotional range is much greater and they just think weird. Crazy pointy eared tree-huggers that they are. Itís hard for us humans to talk about how they think. Someone once compared humans in comparison to elves as having a mental disorder, they can relate to each other but an elf can never fully get humans.

As a rule humans would be more emotionally stable and detached than elves. It's not that elves are capable of feeling more emotions than humans, it's that they feel the same emotions much more intensely. Bill King said something along the lines of "Elves are inherently bi-polar." If you look at a gifted humans with chronic manic-depression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzNwLvsA87E) that gives you a rough idea of how oddly a 'normal' elf would act.