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Gadicitus
09-06-2005, 14:13
I've finished my marines, finally - after a long struggle with apathy my 1000pt RT-era 'Antiquadors' (;)) are finally done.

I immediately thought of collecting a Thousand Sons army, but then realised that my main problem isn't boredom with the models or the painting, it's that I know the game isn't really that in depth.

Previous to this I've tried to start Tomb Kings, Chaos (Mortals) and Dwarfs and each time have totally lost interest.

I love the skeleton models and the idea of the VC army just sounds too cool - Liches, Black Knights, Zombies, Ghouls, Ghosts - lovely jubly.

I know how to play WHFB roughly speaking (although I don't have rules and values memorised just yet) - but I'm really out of practise as you can imagine.

So ,a few questions:

1. GW hosts 'games nights' in a massive clubroom above the shop on a weekday evening for 'veterans and beginners alike' - am I going to be lambasted for turning up with an army but only tertiary knowledge of how to play the game? (i.e. is the rulebook required reading to start?)

2. What is the 'average' points value for a small-medium game. In 2nd Edition 40k I would've said about 1500pts would have done you down to the ground. In 4th Edition 40k about 1000pts is a good number for me. What's the equivalent?

3. What would be the basic choices for a small VC army? Without looking over the points costs I would assume:

Vampire Count in a regiment of Black Knights (Wights?)
Regiment of Skeleton Horsemen
2-3 Regiments of Skeletons (one with spears)
1 Regiment of Wights
1 Regiment of Ghouls
2 Regiments of Zombies

Is this about right?

I'm not particularly fussed about winning - I'm more of a "play the game to play the game" instead of "play the game to win" kind of person.

4. Am I going to be overrun with problems in the magic phase, given it's past importance (before Undead was split into TK and VC - it was almost mandatory to have Vanhel's Danse Macabre, etc.) and my lack of knowledge?

Thanks!

Eldacar
09-06-2005, 14:46
1. GW hosts 'games nights' in a massive clubroom above the shop on a weekday evening for 'veterans and beginners alike' - am I going to be lambasted for turning up with an army but only tertiary knowledge of how to play the game? (i.e. is the rulebook required reading to start?)
I don't know about where you are, but around where I live, they don't really mind. There's always helpful players around to give people some aid if they seem to need it.


2. What is the 'average' points value for a small-medium game. In 2nd Edition 40k I would've said about 1500pts would have done you down to the ground. In 4th Edition 40k about 1000pts is a good number for me. What's the equivalent?
Small to medium list is 1000 to 1500 points. A standard Pitched Battle is 2000 points (standard army in WHFB is usually 2000 points, and it is the equivalent of a 1500 point army in WH40K).


4. Am I going to be overrun with problems in the magic phase, given it's past importance (before Undead was split into TK and VC - it was almost mandatory to have Vanhel's Danse Macabre, etc.) and my lack of knowledge?
You can take magical defence only in the form of a necromancer with 2 Dispel Scrolls, you could go magic heavy with an all-necro army. It also depends on which Bloodline you choose. What are you leaning towards? Necrarchs? Strigoi? Blood Dragons? Lahmians? Or the Von Carsteins?

Frecus
09-06-2005, 14:56
First question: I think you should read through the rules once before starting again. The lots of little itty bits are quite important in WHFB, so the rough lines should be even clearer (thats basic movement, combat resolution modifiers, magic spells, and basic psychology effects).

Second: WHFB is best played at 2K, where you can have a lord. VC don't even get good before the 2K mark, as VC need their lord more than any other army.

Third:
Half those units don't really exist in the way you mention them. A good basis would be:
2-4 units of 10-30 zombies/skeletons. Depends on your own ideas, wther you wanna raise a hundred zombies in the game, or want to start the game with a horde.
You like the knights you say? Take 1-2 units of 5-10. They are quite good, but don't expect them to do wonders, as they are not very manouverable, despite their cavalry status.
Ghouls seem good, though I never tried (my poor walletb doesn't like my spending habits on other armies). 1-2 units of 7-10 are preferred by most players, and in the default for most.
This can be supported by a vampire lord/count. I recommend a count, as he is less expensive, and leaves more room for necromancers/thralls. Don't be afraid to herohammer here, its one of the two armies that are fluffy if half the armies cost is in characers.

The last:
Magic... Well, if you read that part of the book through well, you should be fine. Magic is still where the VC army lives and dies (unless you take heaps of black knights/grave guard), but the lore makes the magic phase so strong, that even one or two spells through per turn can give your opponent a headache (at least, that's what I manage to do).

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

macbeth
09-06-2005, 15:16
Don't be afraid to herohammer here, its one of the two armies that are fluffy if half the armies cost is in characers.

Madwarrior

Which is the other? Bretonnians?

As for the VCs, I would confirm what has been said. Big units of skelettons or zombies (I prefer the skelettons, but I think that zombies can work too), mighty characters, and good magic...

Investing points in some fell bats and a banshee could be interesting too...

However, I have never seen the real interest of dire wolves. I know many people here like them, but personnaly, I have never been able to use them propoerly, despite 6 years of vampire counts...

Arnizipal
09-06-2005, 15:33
Which is the other? Bretonnians?
My guess would be Tomb Kings. ;)

Frecus
09-06-2005, 16:27
Well, I did mean Bretts. Though TK do come to mind...

About dire wolves, they are fast cav, and need to be used as such. I already discovered they are not for tackling big units on their own, but they are mainly a handy extra unit, especially if applied correctly.

O yeah, that's a thing to remember: The use of a unit is one of the most important things in WHFB. Options are more limited, and unlike 40K troops that can shoot or fight, fantasy troops blocks are NOT multi purpose! They add CR or add a lot of kills (CR and plain kills are totally different in WHFB), but not both. You either have a big unit of weak troops (like skeletons), or a smaller of more fighty troops (like grave guard). One cannot fill the role of the other, in any way.
[edit: tottaly missed my own point: ] The consequence of this, is that every unit must be used correctly, or it can't function. The fast cavalry I just mentioned are only suitable for killing small units and adding flank/rear charges to other charging moves. This, while a well equipped heavy cavalry unit can attack an average unit in the front and win.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Lordmonkey
09-06-2005, 16:36
Hmm, wouldn't peronally have VC as a starter army, they play a lot differently to oher armies in the game (even Tomb Kings) and can be hard to use for certain bloodlines (von carstein, lahmia).
Get a few months of gaming experience before comitting yourself :)

Gadicitus
09-06-2005, 21:57
Well - I've had a look at a few army lists and had a browse through the book and to be honest I'm quite intimidated.

I've also had a look at the Beasts of Chaos book, and it seems a whole deal more manageable (and I have a regiment of Chaos Warriors already painted up to jump-start me!)

I'm going to buy a couple of regiments of the big furry goats and see where it leads me.

I do appreciate the general advice you guys have given, though - it's appreciated!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
05-07-2005, 12:40
I agree with Lordmonkey, try a few games with a "standard" army before you get vampies. try elves or humans. undead work with magic, without it they are nothing

thecuckoo
05-07-2005, 13:23
I started out with Undead as my first army. Don't be put off by the seemingly unending rules. Get some models, 1000pts is fine, line em up and have a laugh with your mates. The more you play, the more rules you can introduce until you are playing the full-blown set.

Walk before you can run.

gorenut
05-07-2005, 17:42
Vampire Counts is one of the most solid lists out there...

The problem however is the fact that as a new player.. starting with VC, you aren't going to be able to participate in some of the phases as other races enjoy. Shooting? Forget about it. Tactics such as baiting and fleeing? NOPE (well, except maybe with ghouls), and none of your guys can march unless they're near the general.. so this makes for an army that is very clustered and moves in a 1 dimensional fashion for the most part (spells can alter this).

In the end.. if you don't mind all this.. I say go for it. It's an army thats quite good once you get the hang of it and easy to paint. Not to mention the conversion possibilities are endless.