PDA

View Full Version : Warriors of Chaos vs. Tomb Kings, 1,200pts (quick and brutal)



Clanmac
23-03-2013, 23:16
Hi all, played a 1,200pt Warriors of Chaos vs. Tomb Kings game at local GW store yesterday. First game with new book and was looking forward to comparing list against the previous book. At risk of you not reading further, from a list strength point of view no change, from a enjoyment angle it was more enjoyable due to improvements to one of my favourite units - the Tzeentch Warshrine.

Warriors List
Festus
17 Nurgle Warriors - FC, Discipline Banner, Halbards, Sheilds
6 Khorne Knights - FC, War Banner, EW
1 Slaanesh Chariot
1 Tzeentch Warshrine
5 Dogs with Vanguard

Tomb Kings List
Lvl 4 Wizard
Tomb Prince
Scorpion
Necrosphinx
16 Archers
8 Horseman
3 Chariots
30 Skeleton Warriors

Turn 1 - Tomb Kings
Horseman vanguard on flank and centre does a general shuffle around to create an arc that enabled various countercharge options. Magic doubled the archers attacks who then proceeded to volley into the Nurgle Warriors. Now I thought I would miss the Nurgle -1H bonus from the previous book, but 36 attacks hitting on 5's wound on 5's with 3+/5++ regen (from the good doctor Festus) is an average 0.9 wounds. As a result he failed to wound and would continue to fail to wound in the next round of small arms fire too. I guess the previous -1H benefit was overkill. No combat.

Turn 1 - WOC
I would admit I was bit concerned about the Necrosphinx, and why wouldn't you be with T8 + Killing Blow. Needed to try and get the right match up and figured that my go to monster tar pit the Tzeentch Warshrine would be the lucky one. Why the Warshrine? In the new book Warshrine's are chariots therefore no killing or heroic killing blow, seems a bit of a loop hole, but there you go. Anyway, Warshrine edges ahead of the Nurgle lads to take the charge should he take the option. Knights swing up the flank to charge the chariots in the flank next turn. Dogs enter building on the other flank and wait for the skeleton horseman.

Magic power die load into a 6 die Warshrine eye of gods roll and was blessed with a Khorne Demon Prince (replacing champion) and +1T for Festus and Nurgle Champion. Very nice.

Turn 2 - Tomb Kings
Necrosphinx charges Warshrine, Horseman dismount and charge dogs in building. Magic doubles archer attacks which do nothing again. Combat sees dogs booted out of the building and the Warshrine and Necrosphinx fail to wound each other, with Necrosphinx winning due to charge but Warshrine holds. Necroshinx is pretty tough, but without the threat of killing blow is a bit of a softy in combat, Warshrine looks a bit soft, but I rolled a 6 for random attacks giving him 10 Str4 attacks to go with him T5, 4+/3++ defence - far from the weakest unit going around. The scorpion comes out of ambush behind my Chariot. Chariots shuffle back to take knights and Demon Prince to front instead of flank.

Turn 2 - WOC
Everyone charges - Knights and Demon Prince hit chariots, Nurgle Warriors hit his skeleton block and Tomb Prince, Chariot rolls "3" and fails charge. Magic sees Festus buff the Warshrine with Curse of the Leaper giving it T8 (Moster Tarpit). Knights and Demon Prince do 10 wounds to chariots who crumble then reform to face the Necrosphinx. Warriors do 9 wounds to skeletons who fail to wound back and win combat by 11. Skeletons lose 20 total in one round and are reduced to single rank. Nurgle warriors with Halbards are designed to kill skeletons, with WS5 and -1H skeletons hit on 6s only, while I was hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, not really a fair match up. Dogs rally.

Turn 3 - Tombs Kings
Magic provides the skeletons with a 5++ ward and raises 5 dudes to replace the decimated ranks. Skeletons shoot to death the dogs. Scorpion charges chariot in the rear does two wounds, wins, breaks and runs chariot down - quality work here by the TK player. Combat between the Warshrine and Necrosphinx sees the Necrosphinx take a single wound. Warriors Champion goes into challenge with the Tomb Prince and hacks him half to death. You would intuitively think a Tomb Prince should smash a Champion, but not so with a buffed Nurgle Champ. Tomb Prince is WS5, S4, T5, A3, 4+/5++, while Champ is at -1H WS5, S5, T5, A3, 4+/5++, so the odds are with the Champ. All became a moot point anyway as the combat resulted in the Tomb Prince crumbling due to combat res.

Turn 3 WOC
Knights and DP charge the Necrosphinx, Warriors charge the archers. Magic Curse of the leaper deduces Necrosphinx toughness to 7. Necrosphinx withstands million dice rolls as the Warshrine, Knights and DP combined do a single wound. It fails to wound in return then crumbles when the flank, war banner, banner, charge are added. Nurgle warriors crush the skeleton archers as you would expect and we call it a game.

Conclusion
WOC are still a hard as nails army and not really a fair match up with TKs in my opinion. We discussed what in the TK list could be added to make it more of an even fight. While tactically there were a few mistakes, TK seem to lack the multiple high strength attacks needed to break through a tough, high armour save list such as WOC. Next time he is going to bring out the skull catapult which I think is a solid addition. A Great Weapon on the Tomb Prince would have helped and a second unit of skeleton warriors to hit flank would have gone a long way to evening up the combat res with the Nurgle guys.

Thanks all for reading through, I'll take a few photos of the boys and add to post. Next game I'll take photos of the game.

SteveW
26-03-2013, 17:47
WoC are tough as nails but the TK's book has pleanty of things that can punch through their armour, its just hard to fit into such a small list. Try replacing your necroshinx with a unit of 3 necro knights and a tombscorpion. Or even some GW weilding Ushabti.

abdulaapocolyps
26-03-2013, 22:30
Agreed, Tk are a solid army,they really are. PERSONALLY I think taking a special charicter like festus in a game this small is a bit mean... Special charicters in general are at this level.
I know it's easier said than done but you have to be more careful with chariots than that,obv if they get the charge they are a different proposition...
The KB spell would be crucial for him too,Skele warriors with the princes ws and KB are ok against Chaos.
Good report though,enjoyed that!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
26-03-2013, 23:42
As a TK player myself, your friend's list is unfortunately lacking a couple things it really needs to take on tougher lists like yours.

1) A casket of souls. There's pretty much no reason to ever not take one of these. d3 extra power die is great on its own, and its power is an "innate bound spell" which means it is quite literally immune to miscasts.

2) Huge warrior blocks. 30 is quite simply not enough. You need at least 50 with FC and a Prince to really make the unit shine. He's probably running it in horde formation as well, which is another big no-no. The goal of skittles isn't to do damage, it's to absorb damage. That's why you should also never give them shields (loses the parry save). The goal is to weather the storm while slowly whittling your opponent down until they don't do enough wounds back and you win on static combat res.

...OR the rest of your army finishes off theirs and comes in to mop up.

3) Skeleton horsemen suck. He should take horse archers instead, and only the minimum 5. They're basically just a redirector.

4) I don't like chariots, so I don't tend to run them. Many players swear by a unit of 6 with a flaming banner to take out things like hydras. I don't think 3 is worth it, though.

5) Scorp/Sphinx. Really depends. The sphinx is great for assassinating characters, but he sucks vs. monsters (HKB is so rare, not worth it). The rest of his attacks are KB though, so that makes him good. The scorp is the same. He's a good mini-sphinx, but you can't expect miracles. I'd cut one or both of these to make room for the other stuff, if necessary.

SteveW
27-03-2013, 04:42
As a TK player myself...
2) Huge warrior blocks. 30 is quite simply not enough. You need at least 50 with FC and a Prince to really make the unit shine. He's probably running it in horde formation as well, which is another big no-no. The goal of skittles isn't to do damage, it's to absorb damage. That's why you should also never give them shields (loses the parry save). The goal is to weather the storm while slowly whittling your opponent down until they don't do enough wounds back and you win on static combat res.

.

They come with shields

Clanmac
27-03-2013, 09:57
Thanks great feedback. I wasn't sure whether Festus was considered over powered as most discussion consider him reasonably average amongst range of hero options for WOC. The make your own variety can be as much a handful in low points games, 3++ ward reroll 1 tzeentch heros, hit on 6's nurgle heros and so on... That said Festus wasn't the decider it was the warriors/knights v small block skeletons and chariots that was the poor match up.

I'll give him feedback on list casket of souls and bigger blocks being key. He has done a cracking paint job and loves the fluff and would a a shame if he switched due to being on the receiving end of a few beatings.

dementian
27-03-2013, 14:12
They come with shields

I'm 99% sure he meant to write spears.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
27-03-2013, 20:07
Haha, I did indeed mean to say "spears." They might be worth it at even trade-off, but at +2 points a mode? Heeeelllll no.

For those who don't believe me check out the TK forums (http://tomb-kings.net). Somebody did a comprehensive statistical analysis of our troops vs a variety of enemies, and it's pretty clear that 5-wide, HW/S, and big numbers is the way to go. I run 50 with a prince and it's done me well, but 60+ seems to be the better number.


The real key to remember with TK is that our army really relies on synergy. Good/cheap mages, units that buff magic and are good in their own right (casket, hierotitan), characters that buff units, etc. Use them together effectively and you can pull out wins. Fail to do so and...well you all just saw what happens.

Your friend already has a decent number of bodies, if he took more I think he could make a solid army out of it. Another battlebox for the skeletons and archers (or tell him to check out wargamesfactory, which has 30 skellies for $20.) That should get him a good army going.

Folomo
28-03-2013, 04:45
If you are speaking about Krael's analysis, the assumption was that they were horde. (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=12707&st=0)
"all formations are 10 wide by the way, which turns out to be the better choice while models are plentifull anyway, and doesn't really matter for the outcomes when there's less than 30 models present, apparantly"
The conclusion was that 60+ skeletons with prince was the best for warriors.
Wherever LA was better or worse depended on the STR of the enemy. 5+ STR meant LA was bad, 4- meant LA was good. This assumes you maintain a sizable unit .

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-03-2013, 08:43
Huh, it does indeed. Not sure why I always assumed they were in bus. Guess it's just because that's how I run my skittles. In the end it really depends who you're fighting against: high STR low attacks you can horde, since skeletons are T3 anyways; high attacks you go bus, to limit the number of attacks back the enemy is getting.

Either way, it's all about model count, which is really the point I was trying to ram home. A battlebox army just isn't going to cut it with TK. Big numbers or go home.

Folomo
28-03-2013, 13:10
actually, in almost all non-deathstar-facing situation hording is better than busing. also, the prince is safer in horde formation

For example: if you face a frenzied corsair horde (3 attacks per model, 2 extra from support, T3, S4, with 5+ armor save).
if you bus, you will receive 7*5=35 attacks (app 5 wounds). you will do 10 attacks in return. (app 2 wounds) -> lose by 3, killed 20 points of enemies
if you horde, you will receive 10*5=50 attacks (app 7 wounds). you will do 30 attacks in return. (app 6 wounds) -> lose by 1, killed 60 points of enemies and lost 0 extra points of skellys (2 skellys saved from CR).

Now, lets assume the enemy is a black guard horde (2 attacks per model, 2 extra from support, WS5, S4, with 5+ armor save)
if you bus, you will receive 7*4=28 attacks (app 6.5 wounds). you will do 10 attacks in return. (app 2 wounds) -> lose by 4.5, killed 26 points of enemies
if you horde, you will receive 10*4=40 attacks (app 9 wounds). you will do 30 attacks in return. (app 6 wounds) -> lose by 3, killed 80 points of enemies and lost 5 extra points of skellys (1.5 skellys saved from CR).

Now, lets assume the enemy is are dwarf 2 handers (1 attacks per model, 2 extra from support, T4, S5, with 5+ armor save)
if you bus, you will receive 7*3=21 attacks (app 7 wounds). you will do 10 attacks in return. (app 1.5 wounds) -> lose by 5.5, killed 20 points of enemies
if you horde, you will receive 10*3=30 attacks (app 10 wounds). you will do 30 attacks in return. (app 4.5 wounds) -> lose by 5.5, killed 60 points of enemies and lost 15 extra points of skellys.

Now, lets assume the enemy is a H&S saurus horde (2 attacks per model, 2 extra from support, T4, S4, with 4+ armor save and parry)
if you bus, you will receive 6*4=24 attacks (app 6 wounds). you will do 10 attacks in return. (app 1 wounds) -> lose by 4, killed 12 points of enemies
if you horde, you will receive 10*4=40 attacks (app 9 wounds). you will do 30 attacks in return. (app 3 wounds) -> lose by 6, killed 36 points of enemies and lost 35 extra points of skellys. (2 skellys killed from CR).

So, against insane amounts of attacks, hording can still be pretty good.
Against high STR/attacks and high armor & high toughness enemys busing is better, because your extra 20 attacks dont compensate for the extra 3 rows of enemys attacking.
Also, it depends on the base size of your enemy. (busing against 25mm enemies is better than agains 20mm)
As a footnote, if the enemy fails his fear test, hording is far better

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-03-2013, 17:38
You'll often also be dealing with characters in those blocks though, who can mulch a good number of skeletons on their own. I'll still horde against t3 enemies, but in most other cases I'll still bus them. The skellie block's job isn't to win, it's to pin a valuable target until my TG or sphinges are freed up to finish it off.

I *am* going to start trying double nehek with Khatep in my 2500 point list, though. We'll see if double smiting and cursed blades on a skellie block will swing the odds a bit :P

Odin
28-03-2013, 18:21
Haha, I did indeed mean to say "spears." They might be worth it at even trade-off, but at +2 points a mode? Heeeelllll no.

For those who don't believe me check out the TK forums (http://tomb-kings.net). Somebody did a comprehensive statistical analysis of our troops vs a variety of enemies, and it's pretty clear that 5-wide, HW/S, and big numbers is the way to go. I run 50 with a prince and it's done me well, but 60+ seems to be the better number.


Yeah, we houseruled that spears are free for skellies. Even then, the HW&S option is almost always best.

SteveW
28-03-2013, 21:23
WS 6(tomb king) + Hatred(necrotect) + 5++ ward(neru's) + spears = a lot of dead enemy. I think thats why they are not a free upgrade. On top of that, if you hit the enemy with Usekhp's(-S and T) than you're on your way to really turning them into a devestating unit.