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Jabbercrow
27-03-2013, 17:03
Hi all,

I had a question about the Gold Sigil Sword and whether it's effect would nullify the to hit re-rolls that come from always striking first with a higher initiative. I thought it would, but then read the entry for the sword and saw that attacks are made at initiative 10, rather than where the Fencer's Blades says the bearer has WS 10. The way I then read it was that the user of the GSS doesn't have initiative 10, but would attack before anyone else with an initiative of less than 10 and who didn't have always strike first. However, when it came to fighting, say a High Elf Lord with a higher initiative than the GSS wielder, the High Elf would go first with ASF and the re-roll would be determined by comparing initiative stats.
Apologies if this is blatantly obvious to everyone, but I wanted to check!
Cheers

shakedown47
27-03-2013, 17:30
Actually that's a good catch, I hadn't noticed that before and I don't remember reading any discussions about it. I'd have to say you're right; the GSS does not modify the wielder's initiative stat, merely the initiative step at which he strikes in combat. I just checked the errata document and it makes no mention of amended wording.

Jabbercrow
27-03-2013, 17:42
Thanks for checking the errata (should have done some research myself before posting, but hey). Shame it doesn't work that way as I was working on a set of character items to try and get a character to hold on as long as possible against nasty Vampire Lords and nullifying re-rolls to hit for cheap was a good idea I thought! Guess it has to be Sword of Swift-Slaying...

Thanks for confirming my thoughts

BlackPawl
27-03-2013, 19:42
Thanks for checking the errata (should have done some research myself before posting, but hey). Shame it doesn't work that way as I was working on a set of character items to try and get a character to hold on as long as possible against nasty Vampire Lords and nullifying re-rolls to hit for cheap was a good idea I thought! Guess it has to be Sword of Swift-Slaying...

Thanks for confirming my thoughts

I have the same idea for a small league in which I will play against one vampire player (with my skaven). I thought that you have the higher Ini in the combat phase (but not in other phases like the magic phase to protect you against some Ini based spells), because it would make little sense that you strike with Ini 10 but someone who is striking against you will strike against Ini 7 (or whatever you have).
First I thought to give my warlord the sword of first strike, but after seeing that vampires can have a magic item which negates ASF from other in base contact I droped this idea.

What combo of items did you try?
I have the dragonhelm, GSS, 4+ ward, potion of strenght and a tail weapon for my warlord on warlitter.
So a 2+ save, Ini 10, 4+ ward with 5 attacks (with a one time S7 round).
Not a combat monster like a vampire count / chaos lord, but the best I could hope for. I hope the warlord can hold him off for one round so that my stormvermin can do some damage first.

Had also the thought to include the shield from the army book (-1 attack) but I wanted to have a 2+ save and not a 3+.

Jabbercrow
28-03-2013, 11:20
The Vampire Count Lord I usually face doesn't have the Nightshroud, but rather has the Ogre Blade and Vampire powers that give ASF and extra attacks for every wound done. I was torn between two different builds for my Empire General on foot in a unit of greatswords, but I think it amounts to much the same effect:

White Clock of Ulric, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield, Helm of the Skavenslayer, Sword of Swift Slaying, Luckstone for a 1+(1 re-roll)/5++ no re-rolls for the Vamp and -1 to his hit roll; or
Talisman of Preservation, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield, Helm of the Skavenslayer, Sword of Swift Slaying for a 1+/4++ no re-rolls for the Vamp

I think perhaps the first build is slightly better for that 1 re-roll on a failed armour save and for applying the -1 to hit to whatever troops are either side of the vamp, but I think both work out at roughly taking one wound/combat phase. Sadly there are several Empire only items that wouldn't help you there - sorry!

I think the build of VC Lord is fairly common, but I don't know if you will face that or not. With the Ogre Blade, he would almost negate your armour so taking that shield that minus's an attack sounds like a pretty decent idea! Or you could take the Enchanted Shield instead of the Dragonhelm for a 1+ save? If he is taking a strength improving sword, then I would imagine he probably wouldn't take the Nightshroud as well as that would leave the lord without a ward save and that seems unlikely given their value. I would expect either a defensive VC Lord with ward and shroud, in which case you should last longer or an offensive build which kills hard against most things! As mentioned above, I don't think you would have Ini 10 as the wording of the GSS says you resolve attacks at Ini 10 rather than the sword gives Ini 10 like it says for the Fencer's Blades so I think a VC Lord with ASF would still get re-rolls and would attack first.

God luck and hope you take whatever build done - boo to vampire counts ;-)

RejjeN
28-03-2013, 13:27
What type of item is the Helm of the Skaven Slayer? (I assume armour)

Remember that you can only ever have one of every type of Magic Item, if the Helm is Magic Armour, then you can't also have an Enchanted Shield, because they are both Magic Armours.

Jabbercrow
28-03-2013, 15:04
Crap, I thought the restrictions only applied to BRB items, but just noticed that army book items have their type listed underneath (I initially thought army book items were their own "type"). Dang and blast - rethink time :)

BlackPawl
28-03-2013, 21:33
He runs his vampire lord mounted and with a BSB in the same unit, so it can be that the BSB have the nightshroud and the vampire lord the offensive kit. Was thinking first of a 2+ save (can not get better with skaven) and the dawnstone, but as you said was afraid he took a +2 / +3 s sword and went back to the 4+ ward, even knowing that he could also have the item with rerolls to enemies ward saves.
Dragonhelm is good, maybe he will have the new sword from the armybook which gives him flaming attacks ... :-)

White cloak of ulric is a talisman, or? So the first build could also not include the luckstone.
What did you think on mounting the general on a barded steed for the 1+ AS?

Jabbercrow
28-03-2013, 23:26
Nasty! Still, a lot of points in one unit! I don't know Skaven that well, but can't you do nasty things like chucking huge units of slaves at it to tie it up all game? And that you can also fire Jezzails into them - don't they have nasty armour modifiers ideal for taking out knights? I can't imagine he'd take a flaming weapon what with the Dragonbane Gem and Dragonhelm being so prevalent. Especially against VCs because it means you can tie up Hexwraiths easily. But the improved armour save doesn't hurt!

Good point about the Other Trickster's Shard, cheap and easy to ruin a ward save! The more I think about it, the more I think tying him up with expendable units with deep ranks and a BSB behind in another unit to hopefully keep him there all day.

Totally right about the Cloak and Luckstone, completely missed the classification of Army Book items - vainly hoped they were there own category that you could take in addition :( oh well, good to know now! Definitely mounting a general for Empire rocks for the easy 1+ save, but the next army I am taking is mostly infantry so I trying to think of an on foot general - think now it will be Armour of Meteoric Iron, Dawnstone and Sword of Swift Slaying - no re-rolls for him and I have a re-rollable 1+ and 6++ (that he'll probably make me re-roll - oh well, guess there isn't much better I can think of afterall!). Glad to have a bit of back and forth to mull options over though! Cheers

BlackPawl
29-03-2013, 17:27
Yes, I have one unit of 75 slaves which I can shove into his way, but last league I had more slaves and had success with it, but it is boring to play. This time I have two combat units (stormvermin with warlord and plague monks with furnace) to get a little bit more active.

Because we have to do the list before the start of the league my list will stay till to the end of this league (two games left: one against Skaven and one against Vampire).

gorblud
29-03-2013, 22:14
Don't know if this have been said yet but remember that when two models with the always strike first special rule fight eachother, they strike at the same time and none gets reroll, no matter what the initiative difference is.

Jabbercrow
30-03-2013, 09:32
Good for you BlackPawl! It is always good imo to vary a list and take sub-optimal choices! Sometimes I find myself starting with an Empire idea and end up with exactly the same list at the end of it (Steam Tank, Demigryph Knights, Halberdiers, Helblaster!) haha. I have to say the prospect of fighting Skaven would fill me with fear from everything I have read ;-) huge units of slaves, double HPA - crazy units :) still love 'em!

So far in my experience, I have managed to kill the VL in most of my games. First time was Van Horstmann's Speculum (still a viable choice for Empire), the next couple of times was thanks to killing his accompanying unit and winning CR - luckily VC units have low initiative so if you can kill the unit, you won't get hit back so Stormvermin sound like a great choice. Last time was some lucky rolling on my part and bad on his part when he attacked my general on a griffin. Still that isn't much help and I don't know SKaven so I don't know why I am trying to offer help! But, in summation, given that your warlord has the same WS as a VC, giving him the Sword of Swift Slaying, that shield that minus's an attack and a 4+ ward seems like a good plan to deny re-rolls and restrict him to 4 attacks at 4+ to hit...Not sure I would count on wounding him, but I tend to give up on trying to wound the guy as the next magic phase just means free regeneration! Combat Res grinding seems like an excellent way to go/using small units to fill up the charge lines and redirect while you take out his expensive elite units.

Edit - I'm wrong aren't I on the Skaven Warlord having the same WS right? Sorry! One other thing I thought would be to have loads of cheap characters and more points spent on units and tools. Would make any losses caused by the Blender Lord to seem alright :) I seem to have gone completely onto anti-VC lord tactics rather than the Gold Sigil Sword - apols!

sorberec
01-04-2013, 18:42
Hi all,

I had a question about the Gold Sigil Sword and whether it's effect would nullify the to hit re-rolls that come from always striking first with a higher initiative. I thought it would, but then read the entry for the sword and saw that attacks are made at initiative 10, rather than where the Fencer's Blades says the bearer has WS 10. The way I then read it was that the user of the GSS doesn't have initiative 10, but would attack before anyone else with an initiative of less than 10 and who didn't have always strike first. However, when it came to fighting, say a High Elf Lord with a higher initiative than the GSS wielder, the High Elf would go first with ASF and the re-roll would be determined by comparing initiative stats.
Apologies if this is blatantly obvious to everyone, but I wanted to check!
Cheers

You are correct. In case anyone ever doubts this, use the Ogre Firebelly as an example and ask them at what initiative step it would get to use its breath weapon at in combat if it had the GSS. (The answer being at its normal initiative step because the sword doesn't modify the model's initiative)