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sanada
04-04-2013, 14:17
So a grey seer in a bell has 360 line of sight, does this mean his forward arc is also 360? Because now i'm not sure if he can cast his spells without arc limitation or it still applies. If it applies, i guess the 360 is useless, because there's no type in skaven spells and all spells will have the forward arc restriction

Metacarpi
04-04-2013, 14:36
His line of sight is 360 according to the Army Book.

Army book trumps BRB.

Grey Seer can cast anywhere he wants, as long as it's within the X" range described by the spells description.

hamsterwheel
04-04-2013, 14:40
Forward arc and line of sight are two separate things. The only spells that require line of sight are magic missiles. The Skaven book predates the 8th edition rulebook so any restrictions the spells may have are in the spell descriptions.

sanada
04-04-2013, 14:46
His line of sight is 360 according to the Army Book.

Army book trumps BRB.

Grey Seer can cast anywhere he wants, as long as it's within the X" range described by the spells description.

I want to believe you xD the problem is that there's a distinction between line of sight and forward arc, so there's no trump anywhere from what you said. (unless as i said, having 360 line of sight means 360 forward arc)


Forward arc and line of sight are two separate things. The only spells that require line of sight are magic missiles. The Skaven book predates the 8th edition rulebook so any restrictions the spells may have are in the spell descriptions.

Let's not start this debate again. ALL spells follow the BRB restrictions, it doesnt matter they are from 7th edition and have no type. If you think they don't follow the general restrictions, there i'm sorry but you are no help :)

Metacarpi
04-04-2013, 15:03
I want to believe you xD the problem is that there's a distinction between line of sight and forward arc, so there's no trump anywhere from what you said. (unless as i said, having 360 line of sight means 360 forward arc)

As has been said, Forward Arc and Line of Sight are 2 different things. The Army Book states that the Grey Seer on Bell can cast spells in a 360 arc.

Army Book trumps BRB, so Forward Arc doesn't apply here.

RanaldLoec
04-04-2013, 15:18
Forward arc and line of sight are two separate things. The only spells that require line of sight are magic missiles. The Skaven book predates the 8th edition rulebook so any restrictions the spells may have are in the spell descriptions.

This any restrictions are in the spells them selves.

sanada
04-04-2013, 15:30
As has been said, Forward Arc and Line of Sight are 2 different things. The Army Book states that the Grey Seer on Bell can cast spells in a 360 arc.

Army Book trumps BRB, so Forward Arc doesn't apply here.

Ok, now i understand you. I have read the english army book, and it's better written than in my language, so i have no more doubts about this. Thanks ~

Metacarpi
04-04-2013, 15:33
No worries pal

Lord Solar Plexus
04-04-2013, 15:35
Forward arc and line of sight are two separate things. The only spells that require line of sight are magic missiles. The Skaven book predates the 8th edition rulebook so any restrictions the spells may have are in the spell descriptions.

That's why they can all be cast outside of the magic phase, multiple times and into/out of combats, as none of these restrictions appears in their description.


As has been said, Forward Arc and Line of Sight are 2 different things.

This is a weird discussion: "It's two different things." "No, remember it's two different things."

Huh?

A "forward" arc of 360 degrees is not really a forward arc either....

agurus1
05-04-2013, 03:35
That's why they can all be cast outside of the magic phase, multiple times and into/out of combats, as none of these restrictions appears in their description.

If you apply common sense I think he was referring to the fact that most of the Skaven spells have no "type" such ad hex, or vortex. Which indeed means that most of our damage dealing spells can be cast into CC lol

agurus1
05-04-2013, 03:36
That's why they can all be cast outside of the magic phase, multiple times and into/out of combats, as none of these restrictions appears in their description.

If you apply common sense I think he was referring to the fact that most of the Skaven spells have no "type" such ad hex, or vortex. Which indeed means that most of our damage dealing spells can be cast into CC lol

Lord Solar Plexus
05-04-2013, 08:03
If you apply common sense I think he was referring to the fact that most of the Skaven spells have no "type" such ad hex, or vortex. Which indeed means that most of our damage dealing spells can be cast into CC lol

Which is one of the stupidest rules the world has ever seen and has little to do with common sense. It completely breaks the time-honoured adage of a permissive system.

agurus1
05-04-2013, 09:10
to be honest going back over the spell list most of the damage spells (barring Warp Lightning) specifically say, "can be cast on any enemy unit within x inches, even if it is in close combat" or something along those lines. So its not really anything about permissive ;) its what the rules say. When they change say, Plague or Curse of the Horned Rat to Direct Damage or something in the next book, then the rules will be in line with your expectations but so far RAI and RAW say most of our combat spells can be cast into combat. Don't see the problem with that. They aren't even really that OP save for maybe 13th.

bigbiggles
05-04-2013, 10:08
All 7th end spells have no type. So you follow the default of forward arc and not into cc. Any additional changes are mentioned in the spell.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-04-2013, 10:09
You misunderstand. The line that says "All restrictions are in the spell description" is stupid and does not fit into a permissive system. Even if all restrictions could fit into one text, they cannot possibly be in one small paragraph. That's complicated and leads to weirdness. I'm aware that some spells explicitly allow you to do something as usual but with that line in effect, that's redundant - as long as there is no restriction, everything apparently goes, and we all know that common sense is not as common even without malice.

What riles me is the fact that they couldn't find the time - a couple of minutes - to give all spells in old AB's a type and be done with it. Being able to cast almost everything into close combat and let's not forget with very little other restrictions as to LoS or arc or such is also just another special Skaven exception. Exempted from rules, ignoring limitations, being unique, being THE exception to the rules...yep, I find that rather problematic, and we all know what kind of FAQ that led to.

Surgency
05-04-2013, 17:55
That's why they can all be cast outside of the magic phase, multiple times and into/out of combats, as none of these restrictions appears in their description.

Sure, your straw-man argument would work if you were able to somehow generate magic dice outside of the magic phase, or if you completely overlook the part where its talking about targeting restrictions



All 7th end spells have no type. So you follow the default of forward arc and not into cc. Any additional changes are mentioned in the spell.

except thats not what the rule says


You misunderstand. The line that says "All restrictions are in the spell description" is stupid and does not fit into a permissive system. Even if all restrictions could fit into one text, they cannot possibly be in one small paragraph. That's complicated and leads to weirdness. I'm aware that some spells explicitly allow you to do something as usual but with that line in effect, that's redundant - as long as there is no restriction, everything apparently goes, and we all know that common sense is not as common even without malice.

How does it not? Essentially it says "you have permission to cast spells on any unit as long as your spell has no guidelines. Otherwise, follow the guidelines in the spell text." It only really affects a couple of armies until those armies are given new rulebooks. Furthermore, most of the Skaven spells do give restrictions of some type or other, there's really only a few that seem unrestricted.


What riles me is the fact that they couldn't find the time - a couple of minutes - to give all spells in old AB's a type and be done with it. Being able to cast almost everything into close combat and let's not forget with very little other restrictions as to LoS or arc or such is also just another special Skaven exception. Exempted from rules, ignoring limitations, being unique, being THE exception to the rules...yep, I find that rather problematic, and we all know what kind of FAQ that led to.

So you're upset that Skaven are a unique army?

bigbiggles
05-04-2013, 18:41
The general spell restrictions are in the rulebook. Page 31 right under choose a target. Those apply to all spells, not just the new typed ones

Surgency
05-04-2013, 18:48
All 7th end spells have no type. So you follow the default of forward arc and not into cc. Any additional changes are mentioned in the spell.


The general spell restrictions are in the rulebook. Page 31 right under choose a target. Those apply to all spells, not just the new typed ones

What the rule actually says is:
Unless stated otherwise, the following restrictions apply:

restrictions
Some spells have a type that enforces or waives restrictions. There are 5 types of spells. (the important part) Some unique spells or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

It can easily be argued, based on the wording, that those spell restrictions only apply to typed spells, as "unique spells" and "spells in older books" are given an exception to the restrictions.

This has been done to death, though, and the only thing anyone ever agreed on was that GW should have typed all the spells.

bigbiggles
05-04-2013, 19:31
true, but it is obvious what the spells are meant to do. but you would have had to play 7th edition to know that the base for spells is that they can not be cast into combat. so they would never say that a damage spell cant be cast into CC because that was the default then too

Surgency
05-04-2013, 19:55
This requires an assumption that cannot be made, namely that the Skaven player knows how a previous ruleset worked. What happens with the player that just started fantasy last month and picked up Skaven as their first army? Furthermore, weren't Skaven allowed to shoot and cast into combats in previous editions, as part of their core rules? Plus, there are several spells in the Skaven AB that require LoS, which also was a core rule.

Essentially, we only have the text of the BRB to go off of. The BRB provides restrictions AND waivers to those restrictions in the same paragraph. If the Skaven spells had been typed (I think they're the only ones left now that OnG, OK, and Daemons are done), then there would be no issue. As it is, RAW states that spell restrictions for untyped spells are in the spell text.

yeknoMehT
05-04-2013, 21:41
This requires an assumption that cannot be made, namely that the Skaven player knows how a previous ruleset worked. What happens with the player that just started fantasy last month and picked up Skaven as their first army? Furthermore, weren't Skaven allowed to shoot and cast into combats in previous editions, as part of their core rules? Plus, there are several spells in the Skaven AB that require LoS, which also was a core rule.

Essentially, we only have the text of the BRB to go off of. The BRB provides restrictions AND waivers to those restrictions in the same paragraph. If the Skaven spells had been typed (I think they're the only ones left now that OnG, OK, and Daemons are done), then there would be no issue. As it is, RAW states that spell restrictions for untyped spells are in the spell text.

This also requires the assumption that the basic restrictions do not apply. If they do apply, then everything works pretty much as in the previous edition. This does not require knowledge of the previous edition, it is just a simple fact. If they do not apply, and the only restrictions on targeting are in the spell text, then all sorts of weird things happen, for example it means you don't even need the screaming bell to sling spells every which way - eg scorch just tells you to place a 3" template anywhere in range. Which could include over units in combat, out of your front arc and out of line of sight.
i know which one makes more sense to me.
If I recall correctly, cracks call includes the phrase 'draw a line...' so if my opponent started using that argument, I would be requiring him to physically draw a line on the table. If it's not straight it's not cast, and if it's even 1/4" out of the length it's not cast.

Oh and also, there are other Lores as yet unchanged: Lore of the Wild, Lore of Dark Magic and Lore of Athel Loren. However, these are not often used (except dark).

underscore
05-04-2013, 21:48
If I recall correctly, cracks call includes the phrase 'draw a line...' so if my opponent started using that argument, I would be requiring him to physically draw a line on the table. If it's not straight it's not cast, and if it's even 1/4" out of the length it's not cast.

Actually it says 'runs in a straight line', you better hope you have a good, reinforced table!

yeknoMehT
05-04-2013, 22:01
Actually it says 'runs in a straight line', you better hope you have a good, reinforced table!

Perhaps best to make sure I've been just about tabled before it happens then... :p

T10
05-04-2013, 22:29
If you apply common sense I think he was referring to the fact that most of the Skaven spells have no "type" such ad hex, or vortex. Which indeed means that most of our damage dealing spells can be cast into CC lol

Which is clearly wrong. All spells are restricted from being cast at a target in close combat. Hex and Augment spells can be cast into close combat because this is noted in their spell types.

Though the rules for "older" spells contain their own casting restrictions since they do not specifically override the four basic restrictions, the ones that apply unless otherwise stated, as indicated at the very start of the Choosing a Target section on p. 31 in bold, hard-to-notice type.

-T10

Surgency
06-04-2013, 02:07
And yet you still ignore the part where it is otherwise stated. Namely that any restrictions to the spell comes from the spell text.

If that last line had said "any additional restrictions" you would be correct. As it is, it can easily be argued that the only restrictions to a spell are what is in the spell text, and is not as clear-cut as you seem to pretend it is.

agurus1
06-04-2013, 08:48
Which is clearly wrong. All spells are restricted from being cast at a target in close combat. Hex and Augment spells can be cast into close combat because this is noted in their spell types.

Though the rules for "older" spells contain their own casting restrictions since they do not specifically override the four basic restrictions, the ones that apply unless otherwise stated, as indicated at the very start of the Choosing a Target section on p. 31 in bold, hard-to-notice type.

-T10

Pg 31 BRB "There are five distinct type of spell: augment, direct damage, hex, magic missile, and magical vortex. Some unique Spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions." emphasis mine

Pg 79 Skaven AB "Pestilent Breath... The spell may be cast while the Wizard is in close combat

Bless With Filth ... the spell can be cast on a friendly unit that is already engaged in close combat

Wither .... The caster may choose any single unit within 12" including a unit in close combat

Vermintide ... This spell may be cast while the Sorcerer is in combat...

Cloud of Corruption ... Roll a dice for every unit within 12" of the caster (friend or foe), even if they are in close combat...

Plague ... Choose one enemy unit, within 18" of the caster, even if it is engaged in close combat..."

So in case you missed it... you are wrong.

FatTrucker
06-04-2013, 09:19
Have to agree. All Skaven spells that can be cast into CC are clearly worded in the spell descriptions. If they don't specify that you can, then you can't. Seems simple enough.
Also with a seer on a bell the bells base is used for the purposes of a spells origin so a template spell (cracks call etc) can only be cast from the front arc of the bell (or it will hit your own unit) but 'due to his lofty position atop the bell' any spells that require LoS including spells that affect any unit within x inches can be cast 360deg.

yeknoMehT
06-04-2013, 09:55
Pg 31 BRB "There are five distinct type of spell: augment, direct damage, hex, magic missile, and magical vortex. Some unique Spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions." emphasis mine

Pg 79 Skaven AB "Pestilent Breath... The spell may be cast while the Wizard is in close combat

Bless With Filth ... the spell can be cast on a friendly unit that is already engaged in close combat

Wither .... The caster may choose any single unit within 12" including a unit in close combat

Vermintide ... This spell may be cast while the Sorcerer is in combat...

Cloud of Corruption ... Roll a dice for every unit within 12" of the caster (friend or foe), even if they are in close combat...

Plague ... Choose one enemy unit, within 18" of the caster, even if it is engaged in close combat..."

So in case you missed it... you are wrong.

I think the point is that for there to be 'restrictions' on targets, it would have to say on the other spells that you cannot cast into combat (eg scorch). Otherwise it requires that there be a limitation on casting into combat, which is provided in the general targeting spells rules, which also requires that your target is in your front arc, but does not require line of sight. So, having 360 LoS does not allow you to ignore the front arc requirement - unless the spell explicitly says that it does not need to be in the forward arc.
Its a fairly simple matter - you either have a weird case where some spells include a waiver for a restriction that is not present (as the only place is in the targeting restrictions) and some do not have any such waiver, but do not have a restriction either (so for example can be cast into combat). Or you use the basic restrictions plus any change specified in the spell text.
You cannot pick and choose which basic restrictions apply - the only two interpretations are all or none. And to me, none does not make any sense.

FatTrucker
06-04-2013, 10:09
The Grey Seer having a 360 arc for casting is a rule for using the bell as a mount, a grey seer on foot would have the same restrictions as any other caster. So the rule is for the bell not the spells.

'Above the Masses' : ....'The Grey Seer can cast spells in a 360 degree arc measuring a spells range from any point on the Screaming Bells base'

In addition to this:

'The Grey Seer can draw line of sight for spells over the heads of the unit pushing the Screamin Bell'

Doesn't really get any clearer its a special rule for a unique mount in the Skaven Army Book regardless of what the general rule is in the BRB. So yes a Seer on a Bell can cast a spell in any direction he chooses. Its 2 seperate rules.
1) Seer can cast in a 360 degree arc
2) Seer can see over the top of his unit to determine what he can actually see to cast at.

Skaven spells are also clear on what can be cast into combat, 13th for example cannot be cast into CC because it makes no stipulation in the spell description that it can.

Its not intended that an absence of 'cannot cast into CC' being written in the spell description automatically means a spell can be cast into CC. If that were the case they wouldn't bother specifically stating the 'can be cast into CC' rule on other selected spells.

Surgency
06-04-2013, 15:30
Skaven spells are also clear on what can be cast into combat, 13th for example cannot be cast into CC because it makes no stipulation in the spell description that it can.

Its not intended that an absence of 'cannot cast into CC' being written in the spell description automatically means a spell can be cast into CC. If that were the case they wouldn't bother specifically stating the 'can be cast into CC' rule on other selected spells.

Except thats not how the rule reads. As you can see from my earlier post, the rule on page 31 doesn't say any additional restrictions, it specifically and clearly states that any restrictions come from the spell text. Therefor, the rule on page 31 says that "unless otherwise noted" and then gives a situation where it is otherwise noted (ie: spells that come from old army books, or spells that have no type)

We can only say what is intended for Typed spells, because that is the only place that the ruling is clear. Since the rule specifically states that any restrictions will be in the spell description for old and untyped spells, we cannot assume the intent. If it were intended that spells from old books and untyped spells follow the basic restrictions, then there is no need whatsoever to put in that last portion about old and untyped spells. That entire last line becomes completely superfluous, as the rules already gave instruction.

The rule is not cut-and-dry. To say it is completely overlooks the way that the rule is written, and goes straight into the way each player believes the rule is intended.


As for the original question, it has been pointed out that the Bell gives the Grey Seer an arc of 360. He doesn't need LoS to cast most of his spells. Thus a Seer on a Bell can cast most of his spells freely, no matter where he is or which way the Bell is facing.

T10
06-04-2013, 15:54
So in case you missed it... you are wrong.

I don't object to the fact that there are some Skaven spells that can be cast into close combat. What I object to is your suggestion that they may be cast into close combat due to not having a spell type:


If you apply common sense I think he was referring to the fact that most of the Skaven spells have no "type" such ad hex, or vortex. Which indeed means that most of our damage dealing spells can be cast into CC lol

Which is wrong.

-T10

FatTrucker
06-04-2013, 16:38
Except thats not how the rule reads. As you can see from my earlier post, the rule on page 31 doesn't say any additional restrictions, it specifically and clearly states that any restrictions come from the spell text. Therefor, the rule on page 31 says that "unless otherwise noted" and then gives a situation where it is otherwise noted (ie: spells that come from old army books, or spells that have no type)

We can only say what is intended for Typed spells, because that is the only place that the ruling is clear. Since the rule specifically states that any restrictions will be in the spell description for old and untyped spells, we cannot assume the intent. If it were intended that spells from old books and untyped spells follow the basic restrictions, then there is no need whatsoever to put in that last portion about old and untyped spells. That entire last line becomes completely superfluous, as the rules already gave instruction.

The rule is not cut-and-dry. To say it is completely overlooks the way that the rule is written, and goes straight into the way each player believes the rule is intended.


As for the original question, it has been pointed out that the Bell gives the Grey Seer an arc of 360. He doesn't need LoS to cast most of his spells. Thus a Seer on a Bell can cast most of his spells freely, no matter where he is or which way the Bell is facing.

Skaven spells specify which ones can be cast into CC, its in their descriptions. If anyone is really ridiculous enough to argue that all Skaven spells can be cast into CC, in any phase without any rules because they don't contain a full set of magic rule restrictions on each card, they're playing the wrong game.
The rule and its intent are clear, if a clearly written special rule (like casting into CC with some spells) is there then follow the special rule.
If there is an absence of a special rule ( like some spells that dont say they can be cast into CC) then follow the BRB. You don't just make stuff up because its not written on a spell card.
None of my spells state the casting player can't run naked down the road holding a chicken and a fairy wand. It doesn't mean its in the rules by its omission!

pippin_nl
07-04-2013, 01:07
I guess there are a few things to take into consideration:

Do untyped spells follow the BRB restrictions or are they exempt as the BRB itself stipulates so.
What do the Skaven spells say about targetting as Armybook trumps BRB?

Skitterleap: any friendly infantry character within 12" (quite clear)
Warp Lightning: no restrictions, but also no allowances (unclear)
Howling Warpgale: no restrictions, but also no allowances (unclear)
Death Frenzy: any friendly unit within 18" (quite clear)
Scorch: anywhere within 24" (quite clear)
Cracks Call: no restrictions, but also no allowances (unclear)

Pestilent Breath: may be cast from combat, no restrictions, no allowance to cast into combat if the wizard is not in that combat (unclear)
Bless with filth: may be cast on a unit in combat, no restrictions, no allowance to cast from combat (unclear)
Wither: any unit within 12" (clear)
Vermintide: may be cast from combat, no restrictions, no allowance to cast into combat if the wizard is not in that combat (unclear)
Cloud of corruption: any unit within 12" (clear)
Plague: one enemy unit within 18", no restrictions, may be cast into combat, no allowance to cast from combat (unclear)
Dreaded 13th: unit with 24" and within line of sight (forward arc), no further restrictions or allowances (unclear)

Surgency
07-04-2013, 06:34
that all Skaven spells can be cast into CC, in any phase without any rules because they don't contain a full set of magic rule restrictions on each card, they're playing the wrong game.

Except that the rule is for targeting. As such, this is a complete strawman argument, much as I point out earlier when another poster tried to make the same fallacious comparison.



If there is an absence of a special rule ( like some spells that dont say they can be cast into CC) then follow the BRB. You don't just make stuff up because its not written on a spell card.

As I pointed out, there IS a rule that follows the BRB. The BRB itself does, when it says that spell restrictions are in the spell text. There seems to be a complete desire to ignore the last part of the rule everyone wants to harp on, that says that any spell restrictions will be in the spell text. In order for it to read the way you want it to read, you have to add in the word additional after the word any.


None of my spells state the casting player can't run naked down the road holding a chicken and a fairy wand. It doesn't mean its in the rules by its omission!

This is another strawman argument. The rules are there, exactly as I quoted earlier. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less true.

yeknoMehT
07-04-2013, 08:20
The problem I'm having is not that you follow the restrictions in the spell descriptions, it's that for them to make sense (and clear up all cases where it is not entirely clear with each spell) that you need to also apply the basic restrictions for targeting.

I know this would suggest that you need the word 'additional' in the rule book text, but this isn't exactly the first time the rules have been poorly worded and potentially contradictory is it? And it has already been pointed out that the wording is terrible. I think adding that single word fixes everything.

Just think - before the new chaos army books came out, infernal gateway just said 'pick any enemy unit within...' - I have had opponents wanting to cast that from combat, into combat, behind them... Would you have let them?

FatTrucker
07-04-2013, 08:40
I dont cast any Skaven spells into combat unless they specifically state they can be cast into combat. If the intention was that they can all be cast into CC they wouldn't have certain spells specifying that they can and others that dont.
As far as I'm concerned the intention is clear and any exceptions or exemptions are specified in the spell text. If doesn't say you can do something outside the normal rules then you can't its the fair, and balanced way to interpret the rule which IMO is the way everyone should try to interpret any rule that's unclear or poorly worded.
The game is afterall primarily about having fun, not trying to interpret an ambiguos rule to give you a game breaking advantage.

yeknoMehT
07-04-2013, 08:58
The reason they say they can be cast into combat is because in the last edition there were also targeting rules that by default you could not cast into combat.
In 8th this requirement is also in place, and has also had a 'must be in front arc' added as a default requirement.
I'm happy with the bell having rules to allow 360 casting if the wording used previously is accurate. But in general the defaults for 8th replace the default restrictions of 7th, which is why you can only cast spells into combat if they say you can.

FatTrucker
07-04-2013, 09:10
Yeah thats kind of the point. If the Skaven spells were written for 7th then its clear that one's without the cast into CC rule weren't intended to be cast into CC. For someone to then argue in 8th that they now can because of poor wording in the BRB completely defeats the obvious intention of the rule which is whats important for play balance.

The bell does confer 360 deg casting, the prior quote for Above the Masses was directly from the Skaven AB.

T10
07-04-2013, 10:14
If the Skaven spells were written for 7th...

As an aside, I suspect the Skaven rules were not written for any edition :). The 7th edition FAQ was 13 pages long. The 8th edition FAQ is a vast improvement at only 9 pages.

-T10

Zoolander
09-04-2013, 03:00
Which is one of the stupidest rules the world has ever seen and has little to do with common sense. It completely breaks the time-honoured adage of a permissive system.

To attempt to apply 8th edition spell rules to some 7th edition spells is a quagmire of a headache. Good luck! The only sensible way to use older spells is how they are written in their own books, applying as many 8th ed rules as you can. Applying 8th ed spell types is pointless.

In the case of Skaven, they are all pretty well defined. The Dark Elf lore is another matter...