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Tom - Heretic
10-06-2005, 15:38
Not sure exactly how many people do this, or even if it's just the younger kids who play, but a definate pattern of people trying to keep the general of their army safe has emerged over the last few tournies I've played.
I play IG and my command squad is a counter assault monster (compared to, say, a gretchin) so keeping it safe is something I have to do until the time is right, but does everyone else have any inclination to do something similar?

Maybe you do the opposite, throw him/it into dangerous situations. I've seen one or people do this, too. Not just khornate daemon princes, but SM captains and the like who aren't as suitable to the "one man army" ideal.

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 15:44
There's no such thing as 'safe' in the Deathwing

Lady Bastet
10-06-2005, 16:02
Realistically you should defend your commander, quite frankly the idea of a sacrificial HQ usually fills me with revulsion. This is similar to the feeling I get when I hear people refer to Tactical Space Marines and Guardians as Cannon Fodder.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 16:04
My Daemonprince is the strongest thing I have in my arsenal. Sitting him on a hill with a retinue of bodyguards is a total waste of points.

Artemis_Quinn
10-06-2005, 16:14
When I play fantasy this is a regular pattern for me...... dodging line of sight and putting large chunks of magical protection on my character and making him an overall hard target to hit.

In 40K though It's not exactly the same deal with the LatD. I buy aspiring champions but they're cheap and expendable. I buy the greater deamon to tear a Champion apart and charge right into the first thing it can hit. And those are all of my HQ choices..... A deamonvessel is fairly awesome protection though if you ask me.

Though were I playing a lot of other armies you can bet I'd invest a lot of points into some protection for the model that I consider my leader. I was considering Grey knights..... You wouldn't see me without a grandmaster with terminator aromor and a whole squad of terminators. Were I playing Tau, sheild drones and shield generators would qualify as mandatory wargear. It just depends on your playstyle and what options you're given for HQ.

In fantasy I have found it a harsh blow to lose your general (partially because the opponent gets extra VP for it and partuially because of the enhanced leadership), but in 40K the best thing you get with an HQ is a combat monster or a few uniques peices of wargear (or some awesome combo of both).

Captain Brown
10-06-2005, 16:24
No, a good commander leads from the front. So a quick look at my armies and what my commanders do.

Not that I use my Imperial Guard HQ as a sacrificial lamb or anything. I just like to have an overwhelming number of targets for my opponent. He may not be right in the front line, but fairly close to it.

For Eldar, an Avatar is not really something you hide and if I am using a Farseer, then they will be with a large unit moving towards the enemy to get into Shuriken range.

Orks...you figure it out...while doing so the Warlord is going to be munching your front line.

grizzly ruin
10-06-2005, 16:28
My Daemonprince is the strongest thing I have in my arsenal. Sitting him on a hill with a retinue of bodyguards is a total waste of points.


Exactly.

If you play chaos, there's just no point to it.

You need to take your HQ and pretty much toss him into the fray.

It's not that he's sacrificial, but he's gonna die sometime anyway.l


Besides if he didn't none of the troops would respect nor fear him anymore. :p

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 16:34
Thats the thing with 40k is that most HQs are powerhouses that need to be in the fray.

sephiroth87
10-06-2005, 16:42
I stopped protecting my Daemon Prince a long time ago. However, I stopped spending lots of points on him, which means that he dies almost every game.

He's modeled to be absolutely huge, though, so my opponent usually worries about him and picks him out as a target. However, he's the weakest unit in my army. He can kill stuff, but bulking him up doesn't fit in with my philosophy. I prefer to put my points into stuff into lots of cheaper units, rather than sticking all my eggs in one basket. So he fights, but usually loses to ripper swarms and nurglings... :p

Lostanddamned
10-06-2005, 16:51
My Hive Tyrant Is protected as is my broodlord, they still go into the fray at full speed (and then some more), but they tend to annihlate the units they take on for most of the game so that doesnt come to a problem really.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 16:52
Using a downgraded cheap daemon-prince without many points into it is a great diversionary tactic. Everyone wants to take it down even if it is crap.

Strikerkc
10-06-2005, 16:57
When I field my IW, My lord hides in amongst an assault oriented troop squad as they move towards then enemy, then he pounces.

-So yes and no.

When I play(ed) my Tau, the Etheral would find a Nice big rock, but if I had the crissis commander, he'd get just as much protection as any other Crissis suit.

-So yes and no.

When I Field my Space Marines and use an Actual commander, I usualy try to be a little more carfull with him, since he gives the entire army leadership 10. When I have a Librarian or chaplain I'm not as worried, but I don't just throw them away eigther. It's all about selfless heroism ;).

-So yes and no.

Serpent
10-06-2005, 16:59
My 13th Co. Wolf Lord has no other place than assaulting something, whack it about and pray it doesn't break until the opponent's turn. He has met a fair number of Fisting-deaths along the way, mind you...

My IG Colonel and his squad is one of my few close combat units. They sit back, admire the view and make sure people stay where they're supposed to be. And when the enemy is in my lines, in they go, together with Veternas and Rough Riders.

In tournaments, you have to think about points now and then, which means that if it's a safer bet to not assault a unit but rather get out of the way, that's what happens, unless it's all decided anyway... Bo)

Serpent

Scythe
10-06-2005, 17:15
HQs always seem to attract some special attention from the enemy, and altough you could go a far way protecting them, 1. the HQ unit is most of the time tougher than the troops protecting it and 2. why not use the attention as an advantage and try to trap the enemy?

Anyway, for my IG, my colonel usually stays in the back. He gives everything close a Ld of 9 with a reroll from a standard, so altough he has to be near some troops, it's always nice to keep such unit a bit out of harms way. But it's not really that I'm overprotective. In the end, they are only guardsmen, so will die anyway if something serious heads their direction. Well, it's all for the greater good (errhm imperium I mean ;)).

My Hive Tyrant usually wades trough most opposition, but just to be on the safe side from incomming fire, he is often protected by a bunch of Guard. People quickly lose interest if they have to chew trough 4 T6 wounds to get to the tasty one.

My necron lord usually just annoys people, tempting people to charge just to hold them up or teleport out of combat later. They rarely die, but the trick works most of the time, and people keep going after him.

Thud
10-06-2005, 17:23
I have two very different armies with very different playing styles, so:

Tau:
Yes, I use an Ethereal and a Shas'O and I am not taking any unnecessary risks with either. I am trying to keep both alive.

Space Wolves:
In short; no.
My Wolf Lord is my battering ram and I am not expecting him to survive long. I send him head on into some big nasty enemy thingie, and lets him do damage and look menacing while the rest of my army wins the day.

Sons of Russ
10-06-2005, 17:33
My Captain Deep-Strikes into one side my opponents army, at point blank range.

Sometimes, I will land him right next to my enemy's HQ, to cut the head off the chicken if he's only using him to hide and give fancy Ld rerolls/vox casting.....

Unfortunately for my SM Captain, he waves around a big ole' Thunder-hammer, so I protect him with a tooled up Librarian....

and 3 squads of terminators. :chrome:


When my termies arrive en mass, the last thing my opponent will be worrying about is Mr. Lysander.....

Puffin Magician
10-06-2005, 17:52
I'd say it depends on what your Character is armed with and what wargear they have.

Farseers [with Guide/Fortune] and Techmarine HQs [that don't have a Servo Harness and are accompanied by Technical Servitors] aren't the type of leader to be running around on the front lines, as their rules and wargear are more of a support nature. Similarly, the Tau just can't cut it in an Assault so they linger around the front line only to fire their various weapons before retreating to safe[r] territory. And even Assault-oriented IG HQs will be reluctant to charge towards the enemy deployment zone.

Most Space Marine, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Ork, and Tyranid [obviously] HQs are designed with Assaults in mind and have a retinue to back them up. Never have I seen any of these armies with a "sit back and watch" commander, as they're all fairly decent in an assault and can take powerful weapons that are easily capable of shredding enemy elites and troops.

My IG Armoured Company HQ, needless to say, is a Vanquisher and is not the kind of unit you'd want to be hiding behind terrain at the back of your forces.


If you play chaos, there's just no point to it.
Well, not every Chaos player takes a 250pt Daemon Prince as their HQ...

Scythe
10-06-2005, 18:02
Well, not every Chaos player takes a 250pt Daemon Prince as their HQ...

No, those other players take a Greater Daemon.... :p

Great Harlequin
10-06-2005, 18:53
I've seen so many people hide their generals at the back of the field stating; "But, that's what happens in real battles". But with Warhammer 40k you can't afford to do that. I admire their "sense of reality" but ultimately it loses them alot of games. Well you can't complain I suppose it means you win more games.

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 19:28
I usually take some care to protect my HQs but that doesn't mean they sit cowering at the back of the army. Many HQs are awesomely powerful but not much more resilient than a regular trooper. Most Commanders can still be killed by a power fist or krak missile so giving them some protection makes sense. You want to keep them alive as long as possible so that they can keep hittnig the enemy. :D

I generally make sure my HQs have a retinue of some sort and an invulnerable save. The damage they can cause the enemy means that I usually try to keep them safe until they are in position to deal a decisive blow. I don't obsess about protecting them but even the most inspirational commanders will usually take sensible precautions. ;)

Yorkiebar
10-06-2005, 21:55
A souped-up winged Tyrant doesn't need protecting. Either zoom up the battlefield before it takes enough damage to kill it, or deep strike it and avoid the risk.

Kohhna
10-06-2005, 22:07
My DP is 205 points and flies. Considering he has an assault range of 18" I treat him like the Queen in chess, protect him from fire and then ponce him on the best target. . usually deploy him behind the Land Raider to begin with, advancing either behind the Land raider as it advances or wait until the enemy HQ is in range and sic him on it. He's also good for filling gaps, taking out akward vehicles and helping out any units in trouble.

Ass Goblin
11-06-2005, 01:40
My Ork Commander Mr. Thraka was always by himself in his own Truck. I would race him up field and let him kill till he runs out of things to kill.

My Space Marine commander jumps in a Razorback with his Command Squad usually along a flank and then unload and kill some things.

So not really protecting him.

grizzly ruin
11-06-2005, 01:56
Well, not every Chaos player takes a 250pt Daemon Prince as their HQ...

Neither do I for that matter. I try to keep My Lords & Lt.s to 150, sometimes 175.

Even if I take a cheap 120 - 130 point HQ there's not much else for him to do other than assault, or counter-assault.

Even the few builds with the Kai Gun that I've come up with, don't measure up to the same points worth of an assault HQ.

blitz589
11-06-2005, 02:21
i use tyrant guard just to keep the tyrant in tack so it still has 4 wounds when it reaches the enemy. And with its 2+ sv and t6 i see no problem putting him in front, with or without guards

Ouroboros
11-06-2005, 02:43
It makes sense to protect your general in certain armies like guard where the command bubble is important but for the most part I just use my HQ as I would use any other unit that cost similar points.

Grand Warlord
11-06-2005, 03:37
Yeah i give my SM Master 4 Termies Retinue and abig portion of my army to go with him... just incase something goes wrong lol

samtheman
11-06-2005, 03:52
But of course. Colonels were not meant to feast upon bolter shells in the open, so....behind the hill/rock/tank/wall/inside the bunker they go. Near the heay weapons teams. Gotta love Ld10 re-rollable.

x-esiv-4c
11-06-2005, 04:40
My DP is 205 points and flies. Considering he has an assault range of 18" I treat him like the Queen in chess, protect him from fire and then ponce him on the best target. . usually deploy him behind the Land Raider to begin with, advancing either behind the Land raider as it advances or wait until the enemy HQ is in range and sic him on it. He's also good for filling gaps, taking out akward vehicles and helping out any units in trouble.

I like the "Queen in chess" metaphor. Use the DP strategically, like a surgical sledgehammer, however watch for the lascannons....

EVIL INC
11-06-2005, 12:26
My idea of protecting my general is giving him some buddies to fight by his side and take up the wound he would otherwise take in the thick of it. That and giving him the best toughness and armor I can.

salty
11-06-2005, 12:41
My Warboss, his retinue and his trukk amount to about 500 points, give or take a few dozen. However, in a 2000pts game, they can easily kill enemies equal to the amount of points they cost, if not more.

A charging Ork warboss, with power klaw, is Strength 10 with 6 attacks (I think, I haven't played in a while). Okay, he strikes last, but 6 s10 attacks! The Nobz get 4 attacks, 2 of them at s10, one at s6 and two at s4. Then there are my two attack squigs which gets two s3 attacks.

So, all in all, keeping an Ork Warboss "safe" is just dumb.

Salty :)

Gaebriel
11-06-2005, 21:31
My Space Marine Captain always comes with a Command squad, and both are tooled for close combat. I don't push them into an all-out-attack but rather use them in a counter-assault role. That way the Captain, who also has the valuable role of supplying a higher leadership to the force is relatively safe, as well as not entirely wasted (there ALWAYS is an attack that has to be countered...).

So the Captain is where the flag waves - in the middle of the main line...

Sometimes I use a Deathwatch Kill Team as primary HQ, in a more offensive role, probably deep striking right into the enemy force. But Deathwatch can be specifically tooled for that, and the Deathwatch Captain does not provide leadership. I also like to think of them as "mission specialists", so they have to be right where the action is...

Interesting enough, my Company Captain is much better equipped (speak : more expensive) than the Deathwatch one, but that is due to fluff...

If I was playing tournament style, I would probably think another way.

Scythe
11-06-2005, 21:36
My Warboss, his retinue and his trukk amount to about 500 points, give or take a few dozen. However, in a 2000pts game, they can easily kill enemies equal to the amount of points they cost, if not more.

A charging Ork warboss, with power klaw, is Strength 10 with 6 attacks (I think, I haven't played in a while). Okay, he strikes last, but 6 s10 attacks! The Nobz get 4 attacks, 2 of them at s10, one at s6 and two at s4. Then there are my two attack squigs which gets two s3 attacks.

So, all in all, keeping an Ork Warboss "safe" is just dumb.

Salty :)

Problem I just see every time with ork warbosses is their low T4. You should think an ork almost the size of a deathnought would have at least T5...

I don't play orks myself, but I'd really like to see this changing. Or just make 2 different levels warbosses.

salty
11-06-2005, 21:41
I agree, perhaps Warboss's and Big Bosses, or maybe Warlords?

But, with three wounds, Mega Armour and a 5+ invulnerable save (Cybork Body) if you position him correctly he will survive most attacks, and dish out in the region of 6 s10 attacks in retaliation. This is more than enough to instant kill even marines.

Salty :)

Scythe
11-06-2005, 21:45
Or other nasty things with T5 (broodlords and necron lords spring to mind; very nice targets indeed; it's also fun to whack a wraithlord to shreds wounding on 2s despite T8 if you somehow managed to survive it's attacks). Still I think it's quite silly that the Ork warboss is instantly killed by a veteran sergeant with powerfist.

salty
11-06-2005, 22:13
Oh Scythe, I've been there SOOOO many times. Please, don't get me started or we'll be here all night. And yes, its very satisfying to krump Wraithlords :evilgrin:

When I play Dark Eldar, I tend to protect my Archon. I don't really know why, I just don;t think he's much use in combat.

Salty :)

Crube
11-06-2005, 22:14
In Fantasy I play Tzeentch, so my Lord generally tries to keep out of the way for a couple of turns, loosing off a couple of spells, before getting into HTH to support another unit.

I leave it to the Gods to decide his fate...

Scythe
11-06-2005, 22:22
When I play Dark Eldar, I tend to protect my Archon. I don't really know why, I just don;t think he's much use in combat.


Ahh, Dark Eldar Archons. I've got bad memories about those. My general DE opponent always has that guy and his incubi kill half the enemy army. With combat drugs, agoniser and shadow field, he's a monster. My opponent just never seems to fail that 2+ invulnerable save, no mather what you throw at it. And 12" charge from combat drugs used in the last turn always seems to grant hundreds of victory points.

salty
11-06-2005, 22:24
I think I must be getting his fair share of the bad luck then, my Incubi seem to die so easily its insane.

Admittedly I haven't figured out how to play a game of 40k without throwing all my troops at the enemy while screaming "WAAAAAAAGH!"...

Dark Eldar are very underrated, but I won't go into that here...

Salty :)

Lost Primarch
11-06-2005, 22:40
My Senior Officer always stays around the rear of the army, preventing units falling off the table and generally supporting the heavy weapons squads.

With a power sword and a standard bearer only, its not really a viable target, so they just sit their looking poetic and attempt to halt Space Marine assault squads :D

Leave the front line stuff to the junior officers. They get promoted through 'natural selection'!

Rabid Bunny 666
11-06-2005, 23:13
my HQs normally accompany a unit similar to him, such as veterans for my emperors champion and terminators for my marshall, my marshall in power armour, my EC and a vet squad waded through a necron army before the last 3 survivors were charged by a chaos dread and the EC trashed it before winning the game by being the last model alive!

The Dragon Reborn
11-06-2005, 23:34
i guess my DE archon has the rest of the good luck salty is missing, He is a monster he and about 8 incubi will kill anything on the charge. And with I5 and I7 they kill jsut about everything that charges them before they even get scratched, (shoot except I8 broodlord now) for about 120 points the archon is mean machince that you had better ram into combat before he gets shot to crap, so no i dont protect him by hiding him, i protect him by getting him into combat as soon as possible.

With chaos i generally have a GD or a beefyish (about 110 points) lord in a squad of 6 termies, both have lots of protection, posesing is great Defence, and 6 terminators so with chaos i do protect but not hide. if that makes any sense, i jsut got back from camping and am wiped out sorry

Getz
11-06-2005, 23:53
My IG commander usually hangs around the back of the army with a cheapish retinue od HtH equipped Veterans and Ld boosting wargear. Their primary roll is to keep the army in line, but if it all goes to hell in a handcart they can bus over to the trouble spot in their Chimera and perform as a useful counter assault unit.

I my Mech Tau I use both a Shas'o/el and an Ethereal. The Etheral flies around in a 'fish with a firewarrior squad dedicated to his protection, and the Shas'O and hid body guard function as a particularly well equipped Crisis suit squad (TL Plasma rifles, Missile pods and hard wired Multitrackers - for the entire squad - hello!)

Inquis. Jaeger
12-06-2005, 01:54
My Marine commanders always get stuck in. However, my Guard Commander performs a much more important role in order to steady the line - Master-Vox, Iron Discipline, Commissar, the works. He never gets into action unless things are going really badly.

Gannon
12-06-2005, 02:17
With my chaos marines, I usually run two chaos Luitenants with at most power fists and plas pistols. They join a regular CSM squad for protection.

My SW's get a Rune Priest with the works, and a Wolf Priest with the same. Once again they accompany either Blood claws or Grey Hunters.

Warlord Gnashgrod
12-06-2005, 05:22
It really depends on what army you play, I think.

My Tau commanders have to stay back a bit, as they're very vulnerable to hth. The Suit commanders still 'pop out' and shoot, but they hide as much as possible otherwise. I also have my Daemonhunter Inquisitor Lord hide as well, except when it's very vital he joins in the battle.

My Necron Lord can join in the battle when necessary, but he's mainly a support unit. But he is ready to fight if needed.

My Ork Warboss always does his best to get 'stuck in' to hth ASAP, though. He's outfitted for it and can be a real monster in hth.

Shas'o'Fior
12-06-2005, 13:55
for my tau, etheral hides at the back, because if hes down the entire army flies into bits and the commander, with his jet pack move, shoots and then hides behind a piece of terrain (he has the best BS in the entire army, i try to keep him alive)

Adept
12-06-2005, 14:07
Protect my HQ? A 40 point Junior Officer and four Guardsmen with Lasguns?

Why bother?