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FallenScholar
01-06-2006, 18:44
How do you feel about an IG list with say Witch Hunter units as allies. The allies are there to fill the much needed close combat aspect of the guard. Cheesy? Bad form? Clever idea?

Views??

Thanks

Fallen Scholar

Acolyte
01-06-2006, 18:46
Hells no. Nothing wrong with adding a bit of CC punch to an army.

Although, if you want a brutal Guard CC unit, try a unit of Rough Riders with Carapace, Xeno Mounts, Lances and a Vet. Sergeant with a Power Weapon. 21 S5 attacks on the charge that ignore saves and 10 S4 attacks.
Ooh, and did I mention the 3+ save?

Col.Gravis
01-06-2006, 18:48
More like wasteful, Roughriders are superb against heavy infantry in my experience and cheap compaired to for example Grey Knights. Normal guardsmen meanwhile are quite capable commited in numbers to handle lighter foes.

You've also got Sentinels to tie units up if so needed (though obviously not those with powerfists or krak grenades etc).

Ogryns, well against light stuff they have a use as well.

lord_blackfang
01-06-2006, 19:59
If you need close combat punch with IG, you're probably doing something wrong :p

Cheesy, no. Lame and unneeded, yes.

Quin 242
01-06-2006, 20:33
Which units in a Witchhunters list excel at HtH again?
Sisters still only have a S3.. thier best feature is the bolters and power armor... They work best as support fire.. not assault. Even thier dedicated assault units, the seraphim, are better at getting close and finishing up a wounded squad that straight assault.

If you need to use allies, get some GK termies if you want close support :)

revford
01-06-2006, 22:08
Go for it, unless there are some special conditions to the game where you can't have allies then go ahead and use whatever you want for whatever you need.

I've even fielded a unit of Kroot Mercs (Filthy Xeno Aux Platoon) a few times in the past with my guard. They are quite tall and therefore a good decoy. :-}=

kermit
01-06-2006, 22:36
I would go for it!

The armies, Witchhunters and Daemonhunters, were designed to be stand alone, or as allies. Therefore, use them, don't feel guilty or that you are being cheesy... that is what they are there for!

Good luck!

Atzcapotzalco
01-06-2006, 22:58
I would be happy to face such an army with my tyranids, and would be as confident of defeating it as I ever am. Admittedly this means I would probably be convinced I was going to lose, but because of me rather than because of the army. In fact, tyranids themselves do very much the same thing in fielding powerful elite units and monstrous creatures alongside gaunts. Better witch hunters than an extra tank or yet more massed firepower.

lord_blackfang
01-06-2006, 23:29
Better witch hunters than an extra tank or yet more massed firepower.

Exactly.

Taking a close combat unit is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. You're wasting points to cover a weakness that isn't really there, instead of playing to your strengths.

General Samuel of the 101
01-06-2006, 23:38
I use 5 Grey Knights in my IG!,well in my 1000 pts IG army
I paint allies to have some variety to the army,i was sick of painting Guardmen when i added them
(preparing Flame-Proof Suit for the flame that is to come!)

Getz
01-06-2006, 23:59
<Urge to Kill - Rising!>

This is one of those things I have an axe to grind about...

Bluntly, I'm of the view that unless you're facing Demons you shouldn't use Grey Knights in an IG army at all. IG don't need GK Terminators to be viable yet to hear some people talk you'd think you couldn't win without them... So Guard aren't all that good in HtH, you don't need a squad of S6 power weapon weilding T4 2+Sv models to fix that. That's just lazy thinking caused by (IMHO) ex-Marine players reaching out for something familiar when they discover Guard actually requires brains to play with...

That or they're taking them strictly for the fluff... :eyebrows:

Sisters, on the other hand, I'm much happier about. They're a pretty cool army and hardly overwhelming in the way than GK units can be. In fact I've been promising myself a small sisters army for years... Right after I've done my two Guard armies, finished my Blood Pact, sorted my Orks, and completely built my Khemri list and third Guard list...

<Urge to Kill - Fading...>

Kahadras
02-06-2006, 00:00
I tend to think that taking allies just for the close combat benefits is a bit pointless for Guard. The rest of your army is hopeless at cc and one unit probably won't swing the balance back in your favour. Better off taking another tank and blasting your opponant apart before he gets anywhere near your army.

Kahadras

paddyalexander
02-06-2006, 00:10
I go with the opposite and use inducted imperial guard in my Daemon hunters army to bulk out numbers & provide fire support.

Chem-Dog
02-06-2006, 00:18
Personally I don't ever feel like going past my one Inquisitor as an IG ally.

I don't think it's wrong, a little unimaginative, perhaps, as others have said, you're actually diluting the IG (or any army) if you start to try fixing it's "faults" with allies.

ashc
02-06-2006, 00:53
This is one of those things I have an axe to grind about...

Bluntly, I'm of the view that unless you're facing Demons you shouldn't use Grey Knights in an IG army at all. IG don't need GK Terminators to be viable yet to hear some people talk you'd think you couldn't win without them... So Guard aren't all that good in HtH, you don't need a squad of S6 power weapon weilding T4 2+Sv models to fix that. That's just lazy thinking caused by (IMHO) ex-Marine players reaching out for something familiar when they discover Guard actually requires brains to play with...


Yes! someone who feels EXACTLY the same way as i do about people taking GKs left right and centre! :evilgrin:

Ash

Reticent
02-06-2006, 01:16
While all of the arguments against taking Witch Hunter allies for IG are all very well reasoned and sound, they overlook one very important detail:

The close combat elements of the Witch Hunters list look extremely cool.

Sisters Repentia? Arco-flagelates? Witch Hunter Inquisitors? Bad-ass models one and all!

Col.Gravis
02-06-2006, 01:31
Exactly.

Taking a close combat unit is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. You're wasting points to cover a weakness that isn't really there, instead of playing to your strengths.

Not entirely agreed, sometimes your going to enter situation where firepower alone cant help you, for example a fast-infiltrating nightmare of a chaos lord on a terrain choked table, a cheap counter-assault unit I find invaluable personnlly (aka 5-6 Roughriders with Lances), they dont need to be numerous just as long as you use them at the right time, they fulfil a role nothing else in your line can do with such affect.

Skyth
02-06-2006, 01:35
Of course, it's just another 'reason' to dock your comp score in tourneys.

By definition, cheese is anything that your army can do that mine can't.

Scythe
02-06-2006, 10:20
Been there, done that. Seriously, it doesn't add that much to your IG army. You are losing ranged firepower quite rapidly if you start to include some combat elements. Frankly, it is not really worth it if playing competively. Allies do give you some nice story hooks tough. I love the idea of an Inquisitor and his henchmen fighting alongside an IG army.

Gutta
02-06-2006, 10:29
I might feild a witch hunter purely for the model purposes, because they fit (IMO) with the style army I want

sigur
02-06-2006, 10:33
@Getz: Indeed, indeed, comrade. That's exactly the point why I think that the concept of a GK army is unfitting overall. For once, GK are being sent in small units to fight and kill the big nasties and apart from that, at least 50% of the time, battles involving GK will be just not fitting, fluffwise. I don't have any problems with SoB though. They can show up everywhere and fight everyone.

On topic: I think that it's not cheesy per se, but it's really, really unnecessary and not imaginative (lord blackfang used the word "lame" if I remember correctly. That one also hits the nail on the head.) at all and judging from other players' experiences, not that great. Mainly it's about catching your opponent flat-footed because IG fields heaviest-armoured CC troops all of a sudden which doesn't have anthing to do with skill.

@Col.Gravis: Well put, I also think that investing in Rough Riders is never wrong because they can just potentially do so much for low points cost. (They can also die horrible deaths to enemy fire, so use them wise.;) )

GodofWarTx
02-06-2006, 12:22
That's just lazy thinking caused by (IMHO) ex-Marine players reaching out for something familiar when they discover Guard actually requires brains to play with...



dont pat yourself on the back too hard now.

Kahadras
02-06-2006, 12:37
That's just lazy thinking caused by (IMHO) ex-Marine players reaching out for something familiar when they discover Guard actually requires brains to play with...


While the rest of it was pretty good I don't agree with this. Several veteran Guard players that I know saw the Demonhunters/Witchhunters codex and started adding in GK Terminators and units of sisters into their armies. So it's not just these 'noob' players that everybody seems to go on about that are doing this. IMO your arguement fails to hold water.

Kahadras

Agamemnon2
02-06-2006, 13:34
Bah, everyone's saying how much thinking IG takes, when in reality the key to victory with Guard is simply taking the maximum amount of guns, maximum amount of tanks and just standing and shooting.

*Yawn*

Personally, I want an army that reflects what I consider to be fun, not what a bunch of tournament winners consider to be "proper IG", i.e. the kind with Conscripts, maximum Russes and damn Rough Riders. I take Ogryns, ISTs, Inquisitor Lords and GKs if I feel like it. I'll lose and win on my terms, not by anyone else's ideal of what the Guard should be like.

stecal
02-06-2006, 15:15
Yup, IG sitting and just shooting is boring for you and your opponent. You might as well leave your miniatures there and let your opponent do your dice rolling while you take a nap. That kind of IG misses out on 2 phases of the game: move & close combat. I want my IG to maneuver!

BloodiedSword
02-06-2006, 16:12
It seems rather pointless to use allies for IG if you ask me. CC monsters like GK Termies are difficult to justify fluffwise and aren't that useful, whilst Sisters don't really add anything to the army.

More often than not, you end up both a) making a weaker list than you could without them, and b) giving your opponent something to whinge about and call you cheesy over (regardless of whether it is or not).

Bit of a lose-lose situation if you ask me.

NotElite
02-06-2006, 17:38
As for the notion that Grey Knights shouldn't be taken unless you are facing Demons... Does that mean you shouldn't play Witchhunters against Tau? Should a pure GK army only play against Chaos? Sorry, I'm not going to let the fluff keep me from actually playing...

NotElite
02-06-2006, 17:44
Strategy-wise, it is a lot of points for a CC stopgap. It might be fun to have, but you could also buy a Hellhound and infantry squad for the same price, generally. Guard is about having screening troops die horribly so that in your next shooting phase your enemy is out in the open.

Vanilla sisters are not good in CC, they just die slower. GK is what you want if you really need/want the CC. You could try a Power Armored Teleport Squad (Fast Attack).

Corporal Punishment
02-06-2006, 18:09
There are plenty of good options for close combat fun in the IG codex without having to resort to allies. Take a priest in your command squad, give the officer a power weapon and if you want to get nasty throw in a powerfist wielding commissar. Put in a medic that you keep out of base to base contact and you can help that crappy save situation a little. That's a decent counter assault unit for reasonable points. You won't be winning against any hardcore assault units but if you play your guard right those types of units should be below half strength before they get to you.

Lord Solar Plexus
02-06-2006, 18:22
Myself I do not especially like allies. When I make a list, I always seem to be short on points, whether we play 1k, 1.5k or 2k. There is always something in the IG codex proper that I believe deserves to see action.

Having said that, I second the notion that WH/DH are explicitly there to be included as allies. I would not mind at all if my opponent included them.

Another thing that really irks me is the notion that close combat is not going to happen. Anyone who consistently plays and wins against Orks, Nids, and Khorne without any close combat occurring anywhere either plays on 10"x10" boards or uses no terrain that deserves the name or you have loaded your dice. Don't get started telling me otherwise! I have been playing for 14+ years and simply refuse to believe you no matter what.

Close combat is inevitable if everything runs fairly and it isn't a vet against a noob. And we in The Guard can handle that! Ogryns, RR, HQ's, commissars, or allies are not there to fight the enemy's army. They are there to stop and handle and defeat those elements that make it through the fire. Four stealers? Two Berzerkers? Seven Orks charge you? Fine, that we can handle.



On topic: I think that it's not cheesy per se, but it's really, really unnecessary and not imaginative (lord blackfang used the word "lame" if I remember correctly.


Fielding special weapons squads isn't imaginative but unnecessary. No-one I know would however frown upon it. Variety is the spice of life!



Mainly it's about catching your opponent flat-footed because IG fields heaviest-armoured CC troops all of a sudden which doesn't have anthing to do with skill.


What a surprise. I don't believe it matters much. Even DH allies can sometimes be defeated, be it by other races crack shots or elite hth troops! Let's assume you're facing Nids, then surely the Tyrant, 20 Gaunts and 40 Stealers your opponent took anyways might just suffice to handle the arco-flagellants.

Hlokk
02-06-2006, 18:30
Well, I use grey knight terminators in really big battles (read: 4000+pts) along with a small contingent of sisters, but I dont think theres anything cheesy about it at all.

What is cheesy is an army I once played against. Nids, with a marine dreadnought and a space marine devistator squad to make up points. :wtf:

shveen
02-06-2006, 18:54
If anythin it is good idea Guard have 1 maybe 2 units with a combat punch. Allies give the army a bit of flavour. You could make up some fluff about crooked Inquistors joining them or something.


allies are good.


shveen

Scythe
03-06-2006, 11:01
Yup, IG sitting and just shooting is boring for you and your opponent. You might as well leave your miniatures there and let your opponent do your dice rolling while you take a nap. That kind of IG misses out on 2 phases of the game: move & close combat. I want my IG to maneuver!

You don't need allies to be able to move. There are plenty of IG units that can maneuver and, should it be needed, fight in close combat. Rightly so, most missions require you to move anyway. For those thinking a gunline is the only effective option for guard: play a mission instead of simply a last man standing contest, and start using terrain!

Desert Rat
04-06-2006, 19:53
My "Helion Prime Dragonriders" I.G. army takes xeno-mounts and the "Mega/Carnasaur" (from Chapter Approved) to handle close combat. Any/every 40k army will have to have some sort of hth portion in it's list. The parts I use work with my fluff. I have an all infantry army (sentinels are my only mech.) on a desert world that uses the local animals for locamotion and war.

I'll be adding a "counts as" army of WHF lizardmen for kroot mercs. They will be indiginous people that are used to fill in as "scouts and bullet catchers".

Really all we are doing is playing a game. We are supposed to be using our imaginations and having fun with the rule sets given to us by G.W.. If the fluff for your hth portion of your I.G. army is thought out, then I say by all means use your Greyknights/s.o.b./Kroot mercs and have fun.

GrandReaper
04-06-2006, 22:06
Why is everyone only mentioning Grey Knights and Sisters? Personally, in an IG list nothing beats a squad of 6 Arco-Flagellants for counter-assault. They do exactly what they're told until you "activate" them, charge with 6d6 power weapon attacks, have a 4+inv and are speedy to boot. Finally, being Elites, they deploy after most of the enemy force deploys, meaning you can put them where you need them. The only drawback is figuring out where to put the Priest (I like conscripts, personally).

You will lose shooting taking this unit, but its a reasonable tradeoff. Against an assaulty army you gain more than you lose, and against a shooty army they can go on the offensive, darting from cover to cover and drawing fire (with high T and good save they take a while to go down!).

The other option is an assassin or death cults. Both options are fragile, but devastating if used correctly (just as a WH player who uses them).

revford
04-06-2006, 23:58
Personally, in an IG list nothing beats a squad of 6 Arco-Flagellants for counter-assault.

And as a bonus they are great looking models.


The other option is an assassin or death cults.

I'm a huge fan of the Death Cultists, they have always done me proud.

The Eversor can be just plain evil is he gets a good starting position. I've not has much sucess with the Vindicare though.

Scythe
05-06-2006, 17:38
Only problem is arco flaggelants are quite expensive pts wise. That's why most people go for rough riders I think.

jfrazell
05-06-2006, 18:25
You're also forgetting the common four flamer JR. officer command squad. Combeat isn't just CC but wastig those opponents at short range. a cheap four flamer unit spells the doom of any errant couple of marines who get through the fire, and can be hellacious against orks/nids.

FallenScholar
05-06-2006, 18:43
Wow thanks everyone for the input.

I was thinking more on the lines of assissins, flagellents, and cult assassins. Not Grey Knights. Thanks again.

Fallen Scholar

Scythe
05-06-2006, 19:52
Those are definitely justifiable, and give some nice extra character (as you also need an Inquisitor/priest for them). Steers away from the 'main battle line IG', and more to the 'elite guard with some special mission'.

Mulciber
13-09-2006, 23:00
The most important thing in a situation like this is to have an opinion, and be very emotional about it.

hehe, anyway, yeah if you can fit it, a calidus assassin is a really useful addition to guard armies.

cailus
14-09-2006, 00:39
I thought Grey Knight Terminators always deployed with IG units in case there are Daemons present?

C/-Rt3r
14-09-2006, 00:57
I was thinking of doing an I.G/Sister combo army. The I.G. would be the parent list but the sisters would be the meat of the army. 2 20 girl squads of battle sisters, a squad of dominions, arco flagelents, and then a canoness with a celestine squad would make 61 3+ save bodies to make a very nice 24 inch gun line, and provide some staying power in cc. The rest of the army would basically be long range guard weapons. 2 leman russes and a basalisk, infantry platoon with heavy bolters, heavy weapons platoons and anti-tank platoons attached to the officer, and an armored fist squad. The idea would be to throw as much punishment in the long range firepower with the guard as possible, then unleash unholy amounts of bolter fire, and then have enough cc punch to crush whats left with numbers. I think it would be an effecient army, not cheesy and pretty justifiable fluff wise, a small contigent of guard is attached to the sisters of battle force to cleanse the heretics. Any comments or suggestions? I can squeez it into a little over 2,000 so i am gonna probaly have to drap maybe the dominions to make it fit comfertably within that limit. Not to mention i can use them in my space wolf army as well.

Scythe
14-09-2006, 07:30
I thought Grey Knight Terminators always deployed with IG units in case there are Daemons present?

Heh, there are hardly any grey knights in the imperium. More that 99.99% of the imperial guardsmen probably doesn't even know they exist. Grey Knights are only called upon when things have seriously gone wrong.

ghost of scubasteve
14-09-2006, 07:34
where can one find the rules for xeno mounts nowadays? i have tried to find them on the GW website with no luck. im a new 40k player, and im definately planning on starting up a squad of rough riders

LordSolar
14-09-2006, 12:21
umm scuba steve your in the wrong forum

jfrazell
14-09-2006, 13:05
Thats weird. My link doesn't work anymore and I can't find it.

Ah found the dinosaur stand ins:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/creature-feature/4/

Ah and Xenos mounts:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/creature-feature/9/

Carousel
14-09-2006, 13:48
Taking WH in a guard army is wicked IMO. They look cool, it would happen, and 10 sisters with flamer, heavy flamer in rhino can provide some decent counter-attacking short range firepower. That said, stormtroopers in a chimera can do a similar job, but sisters do look awesome. A few of the more ecclesiarchal elements of the imperium in a guard army makes it look so much more characterful, and adds new dimensions to play. Do it.

Grey Knights I'm less sure about. Every now and then, sure. But they are supposed to be pretty rare. I personally wouldn't be comfortable including them as a staple in my army. That's just me though. They are legal, and not cheesy overpowered filth.

Hicks
14-09-2006, 16:24
I don't believe that it's cheesy and I do it myself. I love my IG to death, but I also love to field units of tough, good at shooting and CC warriors for the sake that they play so differently compared to the IG. A IG army doesn't move much, and it certainly doesn't like fighting upclose, that leaves the IG player only one game phase (the shooting one) to actually use the army. GK's allow me to actually want to get nearer to the ennemy, because I know how effectively they can help out the guard squads in the heat of battle where guard alone would get their behind handed to them. Oh and reason number one, painting 200 minis that look pretty much the same gets boring! Plus most of my opponent's find gunline IG boring to fight against.

Grand Master Raziel
14-09-2006, 16:46
I don't think there's anything inherently cheesy or wrong about fielding some SoB or GK units with your IG army if you want to. The models are dead sexy, after all! When you play a game, you're supposed to have fun. If a unit of GK Terminators enhances your fun, more power to you.

On the other hand, one idea I've had noodling around in my head might be considered :cheese: . What I've been thinking of is using the Doctrines system to get some stuff I want. One of the things I'd lose by doing so is Stormtroopers. However, I could then use the Allies rule to get a couple units of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as Troop choices. They can't Infiltrate or Deep Strike, but they can use the much-cheaper Rhino as their transport option. Then, just for yuks, I'd throw in an Inquisitor Lord and retinue, and either an Eversor or a trio of Death Cult assassins.

Llothlian
14-09-2006, 18:00
How do you feel about an IG list with say Witch Hunter units as allies.

If you are going to do that, then don't take Witch Hunters. All their combat units have a rule called Holy Hatred, or something like that, which means they have to always move towards the enemy their max movement AND an extra D6". They would just get stranded in front of your army and shot up.

If you really wanna take Witch Hunters maybe take an Inquisitor Lord, with 3x Combat Servators, some Acolytes with Mancatchers (every enemy in base contact with them gets -1 attack, its stacking too), and a Familiar, then load up on the psychic powers which stop people charging you, or make people run away.

Then take an Evesor Assassin.

Scythe
14-09-2006, 18:34
I don't believe that it's cheesy and I do it myself. I love my IG to death, but I also love to field units of tough, good at shooting and CC warriors for the sake that they play so differently compared to the IG. A IG army doesn't move much, and it certainly doesn't like fighting upclose, that leaves the IG player only one game phase (the shooting one) to actually use the army. GK's allow me to actually want to get nearer to the ennemy, because I know how effectively they can help out the guard squads in the heat of battle where guard alone would get their behind handed to them. Oh and reason number one, painting 200 minis that look pretty much the same gets boring! Plus most of my opponent's find gunline IG boring to fight against.

That totally depends on yourself. Guard can be more than a gunline. Take some more unusual troops which can move and fire, counter assault units etc will make playing guard more interesting.

Tough allies are not that bad at all....;)

FallenScholar
14-09-2006, 21:48
Right now I am running a list that has the following:

Inquisitor Lord with 3x heavy bolter gun servitors
3x death cult assassins

Command Platoon with:
3x las cannons
3x las cannons
3x heavy bolters
3x heavy bolters

2x Infantry Platoons with:
3 squads with a rocket launcher

1x Heavy Weapons Platoon with
3x Las cannons
3x Rocket Launchers
3x Heavy Bolters

I have the fire power. The assassins are there to deal with anything that makes it to the firing line. So far it has worked


Fallen Scholar

C/-Rt3r
15-09-2006, 03:03
i would think a pure cc army with a little luck would have no problems taking out the assassins and annialating the rest of the guard? A hordy space marine/chaos army might have enough to make it there dont ya think? Not a bad list though, that is a whole mess of long range punishment.

Scythe
15-09-2006, 07:30
You will suffer quite in objective based games tough, as the only units that can really move without giving up too much firepower are the assassins, and they are non-scoring (and still only move 6").

GrimZAG
15-09-2006, 07:36
I wouldn't mind if my opponent used allies, but i think its a bit unfair how there are so many options available to the imperium players (i play chaos space marines) in regards to allying and the like

Llothlian
15-09-2006, 07:54
I wouldn't mind if my opponent used allies, but i think its a bit unfair how there are so many options available to the imperium players (i play chaos space marines) in regards to allying and the like

Chaos can take Lost and the Damned, so in theory can take anything in the chaos lists and anything in the Guard lists. That gives them a lot more flexibility than Imperial armies get.

GrimZAG
15-09-2006, 08:08
But then you have:

Space Marines
Daemon Hunters
Witch Hunters
Xeno Hunters or something like that
and Imperial Guard

whereas if you take a lost and the damned army, you lose heaps of cool stuff from the chaos list.

ThorOdensson
15-09-2006, 08:42
People seem to only be talking about the DH and WH allies, What about the taking of a Deathwatch kill team as a HQ choice? imperial armies can do that as well.

C/-Rt3r
15-09-2006, 11:12
Ya, imperial armies can take more allies tham chaos but just look at how much stuff chaos actually has in their own codex and the variations possible just using the basic codex. Throw in the LATD and they even more options, its pretty sickning to see a basalisk and 2 leman russes dumping pie plates on you while you have squads of berserkers cahrging at you and a dnasty deamon prince.

Edzard
15-09-2006, 12:01
I'm tempted to put in some grey knights into my army ,Black Knights in my case (its only a fleshwound!) Just to paint something different then the endless amount of guardsmen. Too bad 5 terminators cost like 50 euros, that kinda puts me off :P

Corporal Punishment
15-09-2006, 13:15
I think it is a little cheesy unless your opponent does the same. I've teamed my guard up with a Blood Angels force many times and rarely does that combination lose. I think the guard are just too shooty.