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Warp_touched
01-06-2006, 21:35
I was watching a game the other day between a Iyanden ghost army and Iron warriors, and surprisingly, both armies were entirely Cheese. Iron Warriors was all lascannons and Oblits, while Iyanded was only Wraithlords and Wraithguard, NOTHING else!
(Iron Warriors won in case your wondering)
But What is the most cheesed out army you've ever seen? I think it'd be intresting to see how many Iron Warriors come up...

Phyros
01-06-2006, 21:44
Ummm....that's all Iyanden is. Wraithlords and Wraithguard.

Damien 1427
01-06-2006, 21:54
But What is the most cheesed out army you've ever seen? I think it'd be intresting to see how many Iron Warriors come up...

Perhaps, but 630 points sank into nine models that can be one-shotted is, to my mind, insanity. Especially if you're facing someone who knows this, and takes preventative measures. Like enough Lascannons and Rocket Launchers to turn your nine Obliterators into smoking craters.

That said, to my mind taking more than one Obliterator per a thousand is insanity...

Kriegsherr
01-06-2006, 22:42
A well, nidzillas on an unsuspecting opponent is plain mean. Especially if the monsters are min-maxed out for shooting and there is fast horde support to prevent the enemy from running. Not impossible to beat, but mean.

Estragor
01-06-2006, 22:49
Eldar ranger force: free disruption roll tables = enough said.

Corn Berserker
01-06-2006, 23:25
Armoured company is pretty nasty against a combat army but it's got to be the Eldar starcannon wall of death.

Lyinar
01-06-2006, 23:35
Considering how slow and comparatively flimsy Wraithguard actually are, I find it very difficult to call them cheesy... Not to mention the fact that anyone who wants to make an Iyanden force has to pour unimaginable amounts of time, money, and effort into making their army.

http://gamesday.us.games-workshop.com/GamesDay2006/Baltimore_2006/Coverage/tourneyarmies/40k/17_sh.jpg

THAT, on the other hand, is a cheesy army. The only non-cheesy thing about it is the completely random selection of the throwaway special character for Saim-Hann.

MadJackMcJack
01-06-2006, 23:42
That sight is just plain hideous!

(Well, the paint jobs pretty good.)

scarvet
01-06-2006, 23:48
Only one Falcon?? that arn't cheese

Lyinar
01-06-2006, 23:50
Look at what all but three of those Vypers, and the Falcon, are armed with.

That's right... the weapon that is designed to kill heavy infantry, but is still better than a Heavy Bolter at taking out hordes of light infantry. The Starcannon.

And Vypers can take the exact same "HA HA! YOU CAN'T KILL ME!" upgrades as the Falcon.

Chem-Dog
02-06-2006, 00:09
Not actually seen much past the standard Plasma/Lascannon minimaxed Marine squads....

An Inquisitor heavy army can be particularly nasty, you can get four of the blighters in a single FOC (five if you ally with another Inquisition Codex), each can have 3 sacrificial Accolytes and any other henchmen that'll enhance his particular field of expertise, three Familiars to give you a veritable arsenal of Psychic powers or maybe three Gun servitors to give you a mobile firebase, how about three crusaders to further enhance your combat skills? Then garnish with a smattering of 5 men Stormtrooper squads each armed with double plasmaguns and mounted In Chimeras.
Plop an Orbital Barrage on the top for good measure.

Smoking Frog
02-06-2006, 00:28
while Iyanded was only Wraithlords and Wraithguard, NOTHING else!

Uhh, you do know that Iyanden are wholly comprised of those two units, yes? And you do know that they are, when everything is considered, crap, yes?

WG; 6" move, 12" gun. Save of a marine, as tough as a Nurgle Marine.

WL; 6" move, one heavy weapon. Serves as more of a distraction than anything else.

I'd be worried if he was packing any REAL units.

Cheese... cheese indeed :mad:


The list with most fromage in my experience has been min maxed las/plas marine armies decked out with basic dreadnoughts and LS Tornadoes with ass cannons.

Steel_Legion
02-06-2006, 00:38
a guy i know constantly pulls out cheeseier and cheesier armys... one was IG with vets with 3 plasma and lascannon, jungle fighters, granadiers... basically it was no fun and the most boring game i have ever played against

purerockfury
02-06-2006, 00:55
that iw and eldar game sounds like it was set up ahead of time. especially considering the iw player had all lascannons. iyaden armies are what they are. i have faced the same army from the same player in tournies and regular league style games and beat it nearly every time we played.

although the person thought they were the best player/ painter to hit the game. that was the most annoying thing about playing against the army. not the army but the player.

a "cheese" army that's a hard one to come up with. especially since i don't think there are armies that are "cheesey". just "cheesey" players.

i would say a all assault cannon deathwing company(not sure if this is the all termie army version or not i always forget) with drop pods/ deepstrike.

Ravenous
02-06-2006, 01:01
The thing that most people seem to miss is that cheese is a relative concept. think about it. if GW didnt want you to take an army that drops Daemons on you, has 3 wraithlords or whatever, they would have restricted it like a 0-1 or put rules saying it cant be done.

to me "cheese" armies are just as much fun to play then fluff armies, the difference is a cheese army will actually put up a fight, and why are they cheesy to you? Just because your force has a problem dealing with it make it cheese? no, its just a case of there is always one army out there that has your number.

I took a Daemon bombing Slaanesh army to the GT this past weekend and got wrecked. I heard so many boo's that my army was cheese because the idea of it scares them. People fear what they dont understand.

they didnt see it for an army with a heavy theme. because I like Daemons.

I dont think anything is cheese, its just the character of some armies bothers people. I see well thought out army with an intelligent competitive leader not some jerk that wants to win. then the fluff side is someone who wants to make a characterful army but has no desire to win, they just want to play.

all in all, take it as it comes no matter what form it has.

Kahadras
02-06-2006, 01:03
Iyandan are pretty scary when they take plenty of transports for their Wraithguard squads. I once saw an army of 3 Wraithguard units in Wave Serpents, 2 Wraithlords and a tricked out Falcon make a real mess. Although close ranged the wraith cannon is lethal to pretty much everything.

Kahadras

IG88
02-06-2006, 04:22
I played in a tournament once where a guy with the million-dark lance Dark Eldar army was getting badmouthed by a quad-Havoc squad Iron Warriors army for being cheesed out. The Iron Warrior guy's defense against his army being cheesy was that he only had 6 Obliterators instead of 9, and that he kept to a theme (that theme, incidentally, was calling them Fallen Angels and painting them all Dark Angels Green, which, considering I was playing Deathwing at that tournament, I found distasteful on multiple levels).

And so as to quash any doubts about my Deathwing army, this was back in 3rd Edition where assault cannon didn't romp all over everything and, consequently, people were more or less okay with playing against it. The army has since been shelved until people stop whooping and hollering about having five assault cannons in an army with only 25 models.

MarshallRenald
02-06-2006, 04:28
Dark Eldar Dark lance army. Including:

3x5 Scourges with 4 Dark lances
6x10 Warriors with 2 Dark lances


That alone was 24 Dark Lances and he had an incubi retinue and some other things. but altogether it was just under 30 Dark lances, and at BS of 4 ouch!

Colonel_Kreitz
02-06-2006, 06:59
I still hold that IG Armored Companies that are sprung on an entirely unsuspecting opponent can be very mean, especially if said opponent is only equipped to fight a couple tanks. It'd seem better if it was opponent's permission or if your opponent had the chance to change his list around to kill armor before playing...

On a related note, that Eldar army is terrifying. However, I can't deny...I think that my mechanized guard would do quite well against it. Starcannons do poorly against chimeras (AV 12 in front) and lots of multilasers and autocannons will bring down the Vypers. But still...for any marine, that's horrific.

Sakura
02-06-2006, 08:25
The ravenger with 3 dark lances each is better value.
Leaves more room for transports with dark lances.
If the syberite has an agoniser then even in combat they hurt, so theyre not weak on any front.

Basically if there is nice line of sight and the DE start, nothing will be left on the otherside.
They out shoot EVERYTHING!

Reticent
02-06-2006, 08:56
Well, I don't know about EVERYTHING. Infantry Guard at the very least could probably soak more wounds than the DE could fire off in one round, and I'm not sure the opposite would hold true.

But yeah, DE are pretty deadly when done right.

Tonberry
02-06-2006, 08:57
The good old Seer Council with 6000 warlocks hurts :cheese: >.<

Eulenspiegel
02-06-2006, 09:00
The thing that most people seem to miss is that cheese is a relative concept. think about it. if GW didnt want you to take an army that drops Daemons on you, has 3 wraithlords or whatever, they would have restricted it like a 0-1 or put rules saying it cant be done.
Simply: no.
Thatīs the excuse most powergamers bring up when stomping an ususpecting opponent into the dust: "Itīs completely rules legal!"

The truth is that GW, especially in the older Codexes, relied too much on common sense, sportsmanship and maturity of the common gamer.

Skyth
02-06-2006, 10:24
Cheese is anything that your army can do that mine can't.

Or else anything that kills my Marines really well.

Sad fact of life.

devolutionary
02-06-2006, 10:40
I think Skyth has hit most cases of "cheese" quite firmly on the head.

Kahadras
02-06-2006, 12:55
Cheese is anything that your army can do that mine can't.

Or else anything that kills my Marines really well.

Sad fact of life.

I disagree. I don't shout cheese at a Tau player for being able to outshoot me. I don't shout cheese when a World eaters force rips me apart in hand to hand. I don't shout cheese when Marines auto rally with ATSKNF.

Cheese is deliberatly building an army that you know will be the most unpleasant experience for any gamer to go up against and then using it all the time. In friendlies, against new players etc. The single goal of a cheese list is to win every game it plays, usualy by a massacre. Fun and enjoyment while playing are not needed due to the fact that you can take away the pleasure of winning yet again.

Cheese, or as I prefer, 'power' lists are really only there for tournament play. The sad fact of life is more and more people now seem to be using them outside of competitive events. All I see nowadays when going into GW of an evening is carbon copy lists as far as the eye can see.

I do agree that some people do shout cheese to easily but I think most people understand the difference between a list that is designed to be competitive and one designed purely to win and the expense of everything else.

Starcannon = not cheesy

Lots of Starcannon = not cheesy

Lots of Starcannon mounted purely on Vypers and Falcon (nothing else in the army) = cheesy

Kahadras

Wraithbored
02-06-2006, 15:24
SM Drop pod Boo tactic= is cheesy and only outcheesed by one other thing= ATSKNF rule....

ghost hunter
02-06-2006, 15:38
thats why i play drop troops where is the cheese in that when you have an entire army with the potential to kill it's self

Wraithbored
02-06-2006, 15:40
The drop pod is never destroyed if it drops onto my troops and once the Librarians are safely out they can simply keep casting Fear of the dark until realistically speaking half of my army is gone. PLEASE tell me where it says that a unit in a drop pod can kill itself?!

Angels Wing
02-06-2006, 16:12
I think he mentioned Drop TROOPS not pods ;) , hence the kamikaze guard army where multiple plasma/melta toting guardsmen drop In not knowing what might happen next!
As far as cheese goes everyone has a certain view but at the end of the day If you don't like It, don't play It attitude should do the trick!

Wraithbored
02-06-2006, 16:26
I think he mentioned Drop TROOPS not pods ;) , hence the kamikaze guard army where multiple plasma/melta toting guardsmen drop In not knowing what might happen next!
As far as cheese goes everyone has a certain view but at the end of the day If you don't like It, don't play It attitude should do the trick!
Abso-freaking-right. I was confused because I thought he was refering to my post about the Drop pod Boo.

And you're right If I see a SM list with the following combo Librarian w Fod in a Drop pod and whirlwind with castellan mines I just don't play against that.

BloodiedSword
02-06-2006, 16:30
Don't understand why people complain Iyanden is cheesy.

You get fewer or the same number of Wraithlords than any other Eldar army, and need to sacrifice Heavy Support options for those Guardians with Starcannons. Plus you have to hamstring yourself with a unit of 5+ Wraithguard for every Wraithlord you take, and Wraithguard are, frankly, absolutely ********, even shooting at Marines.

A squad of 5 costs 175 pts and will kill on average 5/3 of a Marine per volley, which they need to be within 12" range for. A 10 man Las Plas squad costs 175 pts, will kill on average 2 Marines per volley at 24" range, rising even higher at 12", has more members, is not susceptible to Wraithsight, loses 15 pts per wound instead of 35 (and Wraithguard die just as easily as a Marine to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, Plasma and power fists), has more options and loses fewer points and much less firepower to any kind of damage.

EDIT - also, watching an Iyanden army against a Nid or Guardsman horde is nothing short of pitiful.

BrainFireBob
02-06-2006, 19:54
Iyanden, IMHO, is suffering still in image from the days you weren't required to take one Wraithguard unit for every Wraithlord. Plus, I mean, c'mon, they're even cheese-colored. And let's not forget combining Wraithlords WITH Falcons, etc. Which I've never seen, but hey, might maybe conceivably happen in high point games.

Ravenous
02-06-2006, 19:57
I agree with Skyth
cheese is any you have that I dont.

if your army cant deal with something people scream cheese. or they scream cheese at the idea of an army being able to do well. the Daemonbomb for example does not work, despite peoples fear of it. it has the Potential to do well, but its a 50/50 army. it gets just as much as it gives.

same goes for a drop pod army.

it comes down to if you roll well it does good if you dont you die, but isnt that the same with any army?

Lyinar
02-06-2006, 20:13
The problem with the Daemon Bomb is that if you kill, in some extreme cases, one model in turn one, that's it. Game over. If you don't, and they get around to summoning daemons on top of you, you've got a problem.

Exactly where the hell is the fun in either of those outcomes?

And for a really insane match, try this:

All-Drop-Pod/innate-deepstrike Marines versus Drop Troops with nothing but infantry and Sentinels, and both players decide to deepstrike everything.

Tanith Ghost
02-06-2006, 21:19
Cheese is anything that your army can do that mine can't.

Or else anything that kills my Marines really well.

Sad fact of life.

Add to that cheese is anything that can beat your army and forces you to think in order to win against it.

Vypers and falcons- Haven't you got guns? SHOOT them for Emperor's sake.:rolleyes: It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Especialy one who thinks they can predict shooting and combats based on calculations.:mad:


When I see an Saim Hann army like that, I have exactly three words for it-
"Marines, open fire."

Ravenous
03-06-2006, 01:00
Add to that cheese is anything that can beat your army and forces you to think in order to win against it.

Vypers and falcons- Haven't you got guns? SHOOT them for Emperor's sake.:rolleyes: It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Especialy one who thinks they can predict shooting and combats based on calculations.:mad:


When I see an Saim Hann army like that, I have exactly three words for it-
"Marines, open fire."

EXACTLY thank you, vypers are tin foil and there is no way that guy has Targeting matrix on all of them most likely just the bright lance ones.

totally agree with the "you have to think to win" statement
people hate things that are outside the norm.

Wraithbored
03-06-2006, 01:37
EXACTLY thank you, vypers are tin foil and there is no way that guy has Targeting matrix on all of them most likely just the bright lance ones.

totally agree with the "you have to think to win" statement
people hate things that are outside the norm.


True most of the stuff out there it takes just a little thinking and a tactic to take out but please can somebody tell me how to counter a drop pod boo. Everyone keeps saying it's a hard tactic(what is that d6 so hard to roll to see if the pod arrives or not?And don't give me that it's lost if it scatters of the table edge, you have to be pretty silly to choose such a drop location, or the fact that it is destroyed if it hits impassable terrain? Just HOW MUCH impassable terrain do you have on a table on random?), but it's so damn lenient it's not funny and how do I counter it? Few things Irk me in wh40k, but this one is the worst, how do I outwit a drop pod boo? How do I outmaneover it? How can I try to negate it's effects without cheesing out my list or tailoring it?

Noone on these boards has given any good counter argument on countering the Drop pod boo, everyone just says "Oh that's not beardy".

Ravenous
03-06-2006, 01:51
I find the best tactic against a drop pod army is counter attack, there is 2 methods, corner yourself and fight like a cat on crack, or pic a fire base and commit. those I find work best with all armies

tyranid Zilla list works amazing. Daemon bomb works good as long as you have the drop on them.

whiteshields1830
03-06-2006, 02:11
When I see an Saim Hann army like that, I have exactly three words for it-
"Marines, open fire."

Thats if youre lucky enough to go first. If the saimhain army goes first youll be saying "dont die marines" as half your army will be killed by that many starcannons. Of course, he'll target your devastator squads, then he'll bright lance your tanks. Then its your turn, what do you have? some bolter marines, a odd lascannon, a odd plasma/melta, and maybe a tank or 2. Ill be nice to you and say you get to wipe out 4-5 vypers, 1 of which is a bright lance. then its his turn again, and what do you get....2 bright lance shots to finish off the tanks and the starcannons to obliterate your remaining marines....game over.

I know you can use terrain, hide behind cover etc etc. but terrain usually gives you a 5+ or 4+ save (which makes alot of difference), and hide behind cover...lol... theyll just outmanouver you and shoot you in the flanks...

Saim hain have almost no weakness as they can shoot high powered shots, maintain a long range from you, so your basic weaponary cant shoot (only lascannons etc), can run circles around you and are skimmers. The weaknesses are only: high cost ($ and pts) and fragile...that is all.

Warjammer
03-06-2006, 02:31
Try fighting an all terminator army with a Librarian w/Fear of the Darkness vesus a Tau army. Gives me a headache every time.

Wraithbored
03-06-2006, 14:12
I find the best tactic against a drop pod army is counter attack, there is 2 methods, corner yourself and fight like a cat on crack, or pic a fire base and commit. those I find work best with all armies

tyranid Zilla list works amazing. Daemon bomb works good as long as you have the drop on them.
That tactic is ineffective if you're in a corner and he uses FoD your units will simply run off the table.

As for the Tyranid zilla list it's the easiest list to beat. Once I played 2k and my opponent had 2500 pts of Zilla nids. I didn't loose ONE model. As for the daemon bomb perhaps but imagine if the unit with the icon runs off. Unlike cult armies Chaos stuff does not benefit from ATSKNF.

Caboose
03-06-2006, 19:53
Considering how slow and comparatively flimsy Wraithguard actually are, I find it very difficult to call them cheesy... Not to mention the fact that anyone who wants to make an Iyanden force has to pour unimaginable amounts of time, money, and effort into making their army.

http://gamesday.us.games-workshop.com/GamesDay2006/Baltimore_2006/Coverage/tourneyarmies/40k/17_sh.jpg

THAT, on the other hand, is a cheesy army. The only non-cheesy thing about it is the completely random selection of the throwaway special character for Saim-Hann.


only cheesy if they get first turn

if oponat gets it think all them vechole apart from tank can be hurt by strength 4 weapons

Mantan
03-06-2006, 20:21
I have to say that vs marines and maybe necrons (not really tested on the necron front) with like 2000+ points, a Beil-Tan army can be ridiculously painful (oh god, the aspect warriors! They're everywhere!!!)

Lyinar
03-06-2006, 21:11
The thing is, most cheesy armies are not, in fact, unbeatable. Either they slaughter you, or you annihilate them, and neither of you have any fun at all.

Tanith Ghost
04-06-2006, 02:27
Thats if youre lucky enough to go first. If the saimhain army goes first youll be saying "dont die marines" as half your army will be killed by that many starcannons. Of course, he'll target your devastator squads, then he'll bright lance your tanks. Then its your turn, what do you have? some bolter marines, a odd lascannon, a odd plasma/melta, and maybe a tank or 2. Ill be nice to you and say you get to wipe out 4-5 vypers, 1 of which is a bright lance. then its his turn again, and what do you get....2 bright lance shots to finish off the tanks and the starcannons to obliterate your remaining marines....game over.

I know you can use terrain, hide behind cover etc etc. but terrain usually gives you a 5+ or 4+ save (which makes alot of difference), and hide behind cover...lol... theyll just outmanouver you and shoot you in the flanks...

Saim hain have almost no weakness as they can shoot high powered shots, maintain a long range from you, so your basic weaponary cant shoot (only lascannons etc), can run circles around you and are skimmers. The weaknesses are only: high cost ($ and pts) and fragile...that is all.

He can't kill what he can't hit. And eldar are only BS3. I'll be nice to YOU and say that double tap fire doesn't wreck too many bright lance vypers.
Maybe only one bright lance. Of course if I had tanks, the bright lances would be the ones marked for death, and the star cannons would be secondary targets.

It all boils down to this- pick a target, and remove the threat it poses. That means firing at one vyper at a time until they either can't use their main weapon or are destroyed. Look to your own strengths instead of your foe's.

Orbital
04-06-2006, 02:35
I was watching a game the other day between a Iyanden ghost army and Iron warriors, and surprisingly, both armies were entirely Cheese. Iron Warriors was all lascannons and Oblits, while Iyanded was only Wraithlords and Wraithguard, NOTHING else!
(Iron Warriors won in case your wondering)
But What is the most cheesed out army you've ever seen? I think it'd be intresting to see how many Iron Warriors come up...

If you know anything about Iyanden, you'll know that only Iyanden is forced to take a squad of Wraithguard as a "tax" for each Wraithlord (whereas other lists can take up to three Wraithlords without that). If you know anything about Wraithguard, you'll know that the Iyanden player deserves nothing but your sympathies.

What's more, those Wraithlords and Wraithguard probably gave him roughly 30 models in about 1500 points. Not real impressive.


Only one Falcon?? that arn't cheese

The 13 Starcannons fail to make an impression, huh?


When I see an Saim Hann army like that, I have exactly three words for it-
"Marines, open fire."

When I see a Vyper/Starcannon army like that, I think "Where shall we send flowers for the Marine's families?"

Grand Master Raziel
04-06-2006, 16:20
I agree with Skyth
cheese is any you have that I dont.



That's really only true of immature noobs. Players grow out of that as they gain experience. At least I did. If that is still your definition of cheese, then you have some maturing to do.

At this point, my definition of cheese is deliberately pushing the letter of the rules while willfully ignoring the spirit of the rules. I don't mean to tar all Iron Warriors players with the same brush here, but the IWAOD army is probably the prototypical example of that. The apocryphal "3 Wraithlords in 500 points army" is another easily understood one. One that I saw that particularly annoyed me was a kid who's 500 point Nid list was a Broodlord, a Carnifex, I think maybe a Hive Tyrant (don't remember), and his Troop choices were 8 termagants and 3 Ripper bases.

Getz
04-06-2006, 16:49
I've gotta agree with Wraithbored. I've only really encountered the Drop pod and Boo army once, and it completely raped me.

Basically playing Cleanse, I started to spread out my troops in my first turn (in an attempt to minimise the effect of the FotD) whereupon thedrop pod crashed into my lines in turn two and out jumped two Librarians... Two castings of FotD later most of my army was running off the table, and the rest was gunned down by the rest of the army that landed in my deployment zone. To this day I fail to see how I am supposed to counter that...

As for defining Cheese, I'd say it's best thought of as an army list deliberately constructed to **** off as many people as possible. For hells sake guys, ths game is supposed to be about fun, and if you and your opponent want to run at each other with the beardiest listyou can build, then that's just fine... But building a list that wins almost without tactical thought, or gives your opponent almost no options to play against it, or (worst of all IMHO) is built specifically to rape what you know your opponent is bringing, that's cheese...

Wraithbored
04-06-2006, 17:45
I've gotta agree with Wraithbored. I've only really encountered the Drop pod and Boo army once, and it completely raped me.

Basically playing Cleanse, I started to spread out my troops in my first turn (in an attempt to minimise the effect of the FotD) whereupon thedrop pod crashed into my lines in turn two and out jumped two Librarians... Two castings of FotD later most of my army was running off the table, and the rest was gunned down by the rest of the army that landed in my deployment zone. To this day I fail to see how I am supposed to counter that...
Yes thank your for the backup Gets! And have you noticed how hushed up people get when you ASK them how to counter this tactic? Everyone just says something that either makes no sense is totaly irrelevant or they just plain disappear. So I'd really like someone to step forward perhaps even from GW and tell each and every army(that is nonfearless) how to counter this tactic(more a cheap trick than a tactic) or GW just to admit that they royally blew it on this one.

Skyth
04-06-2006, 18:31
At this point, my definition of cheese is deliberately pushing the letter of the rules while willfully ignoring the spirit of the rules

And how exactly do you determine the "spirit of the rules"? Are you psychic and have a direct mind-feed to the designer's overmind?

Saying 'Spirit of the rules' is just short for saying 'the way I play', but applying unwarrented 'authority' behind it.

I've also noticed alot of cries of 'cheese' are hypocritical. Played a guy in a tournament that was using 3 Vindicators and a Land Raider Crusader. Of course, he started whining about cheese as soon as he noticed I had 3 lascannons in my army. Not to mention he was whining about me having assault cannons (Killed his Crusader with a Tornado) when he had 4 (One of which was twin-linked) in his force.

Played another guy in a tournament that had an indirect fire defiler. I used my Calidus to move it to where it could be seen, and was instantly presented with a comment on the 'cheese' beginning.

Alot of the whining about 'cheese' is also hypocritical because people decry the lack of variety in lists. What is unsaid is that if everyone followed thier expectations, then there would be the same amount of variety in the lists (ie little) as everyone would have to have the same stuff or would be considered 'cheesy'.

Skyth
04-06-2006, 18:48
Yes thank your for the backup Gets! And have you noticed how hushed up people get when you ASK them how to counter this tactic? Everyone just says something that either makes no sense is totaly irrelevant or they just plain disappear. So I'd really like someone to step forward perhaps even from GW and tell each and every army(that is nonfearless) how to counter this tactic(more a cheap trick than a tactic) or GW just to admit that they royally blew it on this one.

Let's see here.

First off, every imperial army can get a Inq lord with hood and a couple mysics (And the tarot to help get 2nd turn). Hood will always help, and mystics will depending on which rule set you play by.

Guard can castle (Leadership 10 with a reroll=leadership 8 with a reroll, means only about a 7% chance of running). Make the castle loose enough that you keep at least one troop within 12" of the HQ to get this, but still spread out far enough that the 12" that fear will affect won't get every unit. Plus Vehicles can't get affected by fear and a drop pod army is notoriously not very mobile once it hits the ground.

Tau can get a reroll with the ethereal, plus Mech Tau would be immune to the fear regardless, and are one of the best armies for taking out pods. Deepstrike your suits. That will help to keep them from getting hit in the initial pod fall.

Marines-Castle in the middle of the board. Leadership 10, atsknf , plus having a hood to dispel it possibly. Deepstrike your own stuff.

Undivided chaos-Again, leadership 10 with a reroll, plus daemons coming on after the pods drop hopefully.

Eldar-Mechanize again, embolden, wraithlords and falcons won't be affected. In fact, falcons are EXTREMELY hard for a drop pod army to deal with.

Dark Eldar-WWP is effective vs pods. Open it on the turn pods will be coming down, then all your stuff will do the opposite of what pods normally do. All the AP2 stuff is murder on terminator librarians not to mention the nasty close combat units Dark Eldar have that WILL be in combat right away unless the pod player dropped farther away, which is good for the Dark Eldar player also.

Am I forgetting someone?

Insta_AxE_Toast
04-06-2006, 18:59
Am I forgetting someone?


What about dem green boyz?

Getz
04-06-2006, 19:08
Let's see here.

First off, every imperial army can get a Inq lord with hood and a couple mysics (And the tarot to help get 2nd turn). Hood will always help, and mystics will depending on which rule set you play by.

So Guard basically have to use allies, huh?


Guard can castle (Leadership 10 with a reroll=leadership 8 with a reroll, means only about a 7% chance of running). Make the castle loose enough that you keep at least one troop within 12" of the HQ to get this, but still spread out far enough that the 12" that fear will affect won't get every unit. Plus Vehicles can't get affected by fear and a drop pod army is notoriously not very mobile once it hits the ground.

Actually I probably should have mentioned this, but the very first thing to happen in the shooting phase was for my Command section to get wiped out with massed fire - a Tactical Squad landing right next to it kinda does that...

So when the FotD went off, I was already without my Ld 10 with a reroll leadership unit...

So in actual fact, this particular Tactic is all but useless against everything but the most incompetant or unlucky of players...


Tau can get a reroll with the ethereal, plus Mech Tau would be immune to the fear regardless, and are one of the best armies for taking out pods. Deepstrike your suits. That will help to keep them from getting hit in the initial pod fall.

With an Ethereal your army will be rerolling 6 for Ld, not the best odds in the world, and that is assuming that the entire army can actually see the Ethereal and it isn't taken out in a similar manner to my HQ in the game I mentioned above - although, that said, an Ethereal with a 12 man bodyguard would be a hard unit to wipe out without some serious luck for the Drop pod scatter and subsequent shooting.

As a player of Mech Tau, however, I fully agree that my Army would laugh at the Deepstriking Librarian trick, and then probably casually massacre the enemy by out maneuvering them, but that's Mech Tau, not normal Tau...


Marines-Castle in the middle of the board. Leadership 10, atsknf , plus having a hood to dispel it possibly. Deepstrike your own stuff.

Undivided chaos-Again, leadership 10 with a reroll, plus daemons coming on after the pods drop hopefully.

No surprises that Marines have no trouble with this, even if the loyalist Marines break they will regroup automatically and can funstion at full effect next turn. Also the 3+ Sv helps a great deal...


Eldar-Mechanize again, embolden, wraithlords and falcons won't be affected. In fact, falcons are EXTREMELY hard for a drop pod army to deal with.

Dark Eldar-WWP is effective vs pods. Open it on the turn pods will be coming down, then all your stuff will do the opposite of what pods normally do. All the AP2 stuff is murder on terminator librarians not to mention the nasty close combat units Dark Eldar have that WILL be in combat right away unless the pod player dropped farther away, which is good for the Dark Eldar player also.

Am I forgetting someone?

Well, Orks, but Mob rule makes them largely immune to FotD...

Let's be honest, most of these tricks rely on you knowing you'll be facing the Drop Pid and Boo army before you compose your list...

MadJackMcJack
04-06-2006, 19:29
I've said it before and I'll say it again, when a 5-point power forces some armies to drastically alter their make-up, something's wrong.

Although against Orks, FotD is actually counter-productive, as the big mobs won't flee, and if the smaller elite mobs flee, they'll almost certainly end up mobbing up with the likes of sluggas, giving the elite mobs a massive meat shield.

Skyth
04-06-2006, 20:13
Actually I probably should have mentioned this, but the very first thing to happen in the shooting phase was for my Command section to get wiped out with massed fire - a Tactical Squad landing right next to it kinda does that...


How did the tac squad get within 12" of your command squad? I did say to castle, which doesn't mean get as compact as possible.

What you need to do is spread out a bit, with the command squad in the middle, preferably obstructed by vehicles, etc. as much as possible. Now remember, only one member of the squad needs to be within 12" of the commander/banner. Space the squads out so that there's not room for a drop pod to land within 12" of your command squad.



Let's be honest, most of these tricks rely on you knowing you'll be facing the Drop Pid and Boo army before you compose your list...

If a lie is told often enough and loud enough, people begin to believe it's the truth. Any balanced army should be able to use these tactics. These aren't weird units that no one uses in a normal list that are only useful against drop pods. And with full list disclosure at most tournaments (including GT's), you can't say that you didn't know it's coming. Heck, if you're facing a marine army and they don't deploy anything, why would you be surprised to be fighting a drop pod army? If they deploy, but don't deploy thier HQ('s), why are you surprised when a deepstriking/drop podding librarian comes in and boo's?

If you're not using a balanced list, it's your fault for losing. If a Chaos player is using nothing more than footslogging marines with no transports, shooting, or mobility to speak of, and they get shot to pieces before they get anyone in combat with a Tau player, it's not the Tau player that's playing a cheesy list, it's the Chaos player that is playing an unbalanced list.

In short, next time play better.

Skyth
04-06-2006, 20:16
And as an aside...If you use corner deployment for a guard castle, it works even better, as there's less place to land the pods and they might deviate off the board.

Getz
04-06-2006, 21:21
How did the tac squad get within 12" of your command squad? I did say to castle, which doesn't mean get as compact as possible.

With a Drop Pod of course, and they got a great deal closer than that, then toasted my Command with a Flamer making my Cameleoline pretty much useless...


What you need to do is spread out a bit, with the command squad in the middle, preferably obstructed by vehicles, etc. as much as possible. Now remember, only one member of the squad needs to be within 12" of the commander/banner. Space the squads out so that there's not room for a drop pod to land within 12" of your command squad.

I don't know if you noticed, but I did say I was spreading out in the First turn when I described the game earlier. However, playing Cleanse on a 4X4 table didn't give me that much space to start with and the Alpha rules prevented me from infiltrating...


If a lie is told often enough and loud enough, people begin to believe it's the truth. Any balanced army should be able to use these tactics. These aren't weird units that no one uses in a normal list that are only useful against drop pods. And with full list disclosure at most tournaments (including GT's), you can't say that you didn't know it's coming. Heck, if you're facing a marine army and they don't deploy anything, why would you be surprised to be fighting a drop pod army? If they deploy, but don't deploy thier HQ('s), why are you surprised when a deepstriking/drop podding librarian comes in and boo's?

Oh, I knew it was coming, but I didn't have enough time to do anything about it before three drop pods fell into my deployment zone. The rest of his army showed up next turn, adding to the chaos and the triggered the FotD again, driving pretty much the rest of my army off the table.


If you're not using a balanced list, it's your fault for losing. If a Chaos player is using nothing more than footslogging marines with no transports, shooting, or mobility to speak of, and they get shot to pieces before they get anyone in combat with a Tau player, it's not the Tau player that's playing a cheesy list, it's the Chaos player that is playing an unbalanced list.

Before you start accusing of not playing a balanced list, mightn't it help to know what I was playing in the first place?

FYI, it was a 1500 point Light Infantry/Cameleoline list with a 3 squad Infantry Platoon, Armoured Fist squad, Leman Russ, squad of Ratlings, squad of Rough riders, HQ section tooled up for Ld and two heavy weapon teams.

Sound balanced enough for you?


In short, next time play better.

My problem with this game was precisely that I didn't get to play at all... First turn, try and spread out to limit the damage with nothing to shoot at... Second turn, try and rally most of my troops before they ran off the board. Third turn, all over...

Wraithbored
04-06-2006, 21:27
No surprises that Marines have no trouble with this, even if the loyalist Marines break they will regroup automatically and can funstion at full effect next turn. Also the 3+ Sv helps a great deal...
And the fact they have psychic hoods....


Oh and skyth as for Eldar I assure you I have a balanced list but my reapers and squads not in transports will get scared off the table. The Drop pod Boo is tottaly unbalanced and it would be solved by giving every army out there a Psychic hood equivalent.

And you forgot Necrons. MY point is fine have your drop pod + fod, I just a normal way a balanced army can fight against it without resorting to playing ANOTHER army or drastically altering the list.


With a Drop Pod of course, and they got a great deal closer than that, then toasted my Command with a Flamer making my Cameleoline pretty much useless...



I don't know if you noticed, but I did say I was spreading out in the First turn when I described the game earlier. However, playing Cleanse on a 4X4 table didn't give me that much space to start with and the Alpha rules prevented me from infiltrating...



Oh, I knew it was coming, but I didn't have enough time to do anything about it before three drop pods fell into my deployment zone. The rest of his army showed up next turn, adding to the chaos and the triggered the FotD again, driving pretty much the rest of my army off the table.



Before you start accusing of not playing a balanced list, mightn't it help to know what I was playing in the first place?

FYI, it was a 1500 point Light Infantry/Cameleoline list with a 3 squad Infantry Platoon, Armoured Fist squad, Leman Russ, squad of Ratlings, squad of Rough riders, HQ section tooled up for Ld and two heavy weapon teams.

Sound balanced enough for you?



My problem with this game was precisely that I didn't get to play at all... First turn, try and spread out to limit the damage with nothing to shoot at... Second turn, try and rally most of my troops before they ran off the board. Third turn, all over...
Great point all Getz

And Skyth don't accuse people of not playing balanced list when you don't know WHAT we play and about playing better, I think that comment is tottaly unwaranted and moot.

Skyth
05-06-2006, 00:16
With the list he posted, if he had used tactics, no way the drop pod carrying the tactical squad should have gotten within flamer range of the command squad. Deploy stupidly and pay the price.

And I didn't accuse you of not using a balanced list.

As for Reapers being vulnerable to a boo...Reapers die to a hard wind, so them running ~40% of the time to a boo isn't so bad. That's the problem with reapers, they're vulnerable, but they put out alot of firepower. You make the leadership roll and the drop pod librarian is dead (assuming he's in power armor). Plus you can try to protect the Reapers from the pod. Good deployment will help with that. All in all, Reapers are generally a sub-par choice in 4th edition anyways, so saying something is unbalanced because it easily deals with reapers makes alot of things in the game unbalanced.

And the comment isn't unwarrented or moot. Either you didn't play a balanced list, or you need to play better if you're beat that easily by a drop podding fear of the darkness.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 04:20
Am I forgetting someone?

zomg, Necrons.


I have to say that vs marines and maybe necrons (not really tested on the necron front) with like 2000+ points, a Beil-Tan army can be ridiculously painful (oh god, the aspect warriors! They're everywhere!!!)
Biel-tan isn't scary for a Necron list with lots of Destroyers/Monolith(s)/Immortals. It's like they were made to kill Eldar. ^.^ What's scary is Ulthwe/Saim-Hann Starcannon army of death.

Shockwave
05-06-2006, 05:07
@ Skyth

Just out of curiosity, what type of army do you field??


And the point that you haven't addressed. The Drop Podding FODing army isn't that bad when you know in advance that your playing it, thus can prepare. Finding out your playing one in a "pick up" game, generally means that baring bad luck by your opponent your buggered, in the true meaning of the word. Thats what makes it un-balanced, the fact that it's a 5pt "upgrade" for a character that is already likely to be in a list due to the Seer Councils. From what i've heard, it turns the game into a dice rolling contest, very much like a Skaven SAD.

For the record i play "Hybrid Tau" without the dead weight that is the Ethereal (Unless going against a FODing army, in which case i might take one, if i knew i was to play it). Neither have i personally played against the FODing army. But thats cos at my local GW, we are clearly not quite as "Hardcore" in our army selection, infact the "hardest" army in our store is a Seer Council played by a 14 year old whom most people don't like.

Skyth
05-06-2006, 09:23
I play Alpha Legion, Marines, Daemonhunters, and Guard. I tend to play powerful lists that can take all comers...Balanced lists (See my post on balanced lists in the tactics section).

And the thing is, if you're playing a balanced list, and using good tactics against it the FoD drop pod list shouldn't cause that much problems.

Just remember, the FoD Librarian is a 250-450 point unit and SHOULD have an impact in the game.

Skyth
05-06-2006, 09:24
And for the record, I have played against a drop pod army with FoD and slaughtered it.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 09:25
Isn't it great when your Pariah and Lord break a FoD Librarian and chase him away? ^.^

warmasterbubba
05-06-2006, 09:53
Necrons. Every game you can take a Special Character that owns all other characters, the Monolith, enough said.

Eldoriath
05-06-2006, 10:27
The FOD librarian is a bit cheese in games where you can't know wether or not your going to meet it. As folks said, it's a quite cheap way and if you pack in some termies with asscannons the damage is even worse. Sure, it costs a bit, around 350p or so. But the damageoutput is massive and un-counterable. Especially for armies that have a hard time with leadership (namely tau and dark eldars).

The same thing goes for the callidus assasin, wich there is absolutely nothing you can do about ('cept mobilizing up maybe), but you do atleast know for sure that it's coming before the first round starts.

Cheese for me is a list that goes all out for winning with no thought on being fun to play against. Min/maxing squads and all for maximum effectiveness and minimized fun-to-play-against factor.

Luckily i have yet to meet a cheesed player.

A list can be good, and i mean really, really, really good, and still be fun to play against. As long as it's fun to play against it can be how good/effective it wants.

Death Cat
05-06-2006, 10:40
Skyth your entire arguement appears to be centered around "tough tit if you sucked". You can keep suggesting your tactical plan to people, but unfortunatly it doesent always work like that. It does'nt matter how many bases you cover something will go wrong.


Cheese for me is a list that goes all out for winning with no thought on being fun to play against. Min/maxing squads and all for maximum effectiveness and minimized fun-to-play-against factor.
My thoughts entirely.


Luckily i have yet to meet a cheesed player.
Unfortunatly i have.

Getz
05-06-2006, 10:47
With the list he posted, if he had used tactics, no way the drop pod carrying the tactical squad should have gotten within flamer range of the command squad. Deploy stupidly and pay the price.

And I didn't accuse you of not using a balanced list.


Um, yes you did...

Look, Skyth, much as I'm tempted to just call you names, I'm going to give you a chance to back up your specious claims with some suggestions.

What "Tactics" would you use to survive the Drop Pod and Boo scenario I described. Remember, the game was Alpha Cleanse on a 4x4 table...

BloodiedSword
05-06-2006, 13:47
I don't understand what Skyth is saying here.. is he suggesting that "Tactics" can prevent a Librarian or Tactical Squad from Deep Striking wherever they choose in a Drop Pod that cannot be destroyed by proximity to enemies? And then that "tactics" can prevent the Librarian from passing his Ld test for Fear of the Darkness? Or that "tactics" will prevent your troops from running away when they fail their Ld tests?

And saying "I beat this army" does not make it not cheese. As has already been said, cheese is nothing to do with an army being unbeatable - the Viper list will lose roughly 1/2 the time on average - cheese is when the game is effectively reduced to "roll for first turn, highest roll wins the game".

Death Cat
05-06-2006, 13:54
I think you pretty much summed up his arguement there BloodiedSword, as you say its not really about beating said cheesy list its about having a enjoyable game.

Tanith Ghost
05-06-2006, 20:51
FYI, it was a 1500 point Light Infantry/Cameleoline list with a 3 squad Infantry Platoon, Armoured Fist squad, Leman Russ, squad of Ratlings, squad of Rough riders, HQ section tooled up for Ld and two heavy weapon teams.

Sound balanced enough for you?


I'd drop the ratlings for Commisars with combat kit and invest very little in the officers. The effect is twofold. You don't loose much when the squad tried to break and the lt gets a bolt to the head for his cowardice, and a combat kitted Commisar will give the marines a reason to think twice.

The best part about this is Commisars are part of my usual fare building an IG army, so I have a good chance of dealing with a drop pod and boo list without prior warning.

Shockwave
05-06-2006, 20:57
Just remember, the FoD Librarian is a 250-450 point unit and SHOULD have an impact in the game.

Yes it should have an effect. Take the same unit without the FOD, what effect should it have??

Add back in the FOD, 5pts (15pts) extra cost. Does that small amount of increase in points justify the VAST increase in effctiveness?? No, no it doesn't

Getz
05-06-2006, 21:25
I'd drop the ratlings for Commisars with combat kit and invest very little in the officers. The effect is twofold. You don't loose much when the squad tried to break and the lt gets a bolt to the head for his cowardice, and a combat kitted Commisar will give the marines a reason to think twice.

The best part about this is Commisars are part of my usual fare building an IG army, so I have a good chance of dealing with a drop pod and boo list without prior warning.

To be honest, I did actually have a Commisar in there, as well as a Veteran squad and some Sentinels I forgot to mention. Needless to say, the Commissar died with the rest of the command squad...

Skyth
05-06-2006, 22:33
I don't understand what Skyth is saying here.. is he suggesting that "Tactics" can prevent a Librarian or Tactical Squad from Deep Striking wherever they choose in a Drop Pod that cannot be destroyed by proximity to enemies?


Actually, yes. There are places a drop pod can't go. Namely, on top of your troops or impassible terrain. Plus if it goes off the board, it's destroyed along with all cargo. You can use this to your advantage. Plus drop pods DO scatter.


And then that "tactics" can prevent the Librarian from passing his Ld test for Fear of the Darkness? Or that "tactics" will prevent your troops from running away when they fail their Ld tests?


Actually, the tactic I was suggesting would keep your troops from running in the first place...With only a ~8% chance of running, not to mention limiting the number of squads that would have to make a check.

But it seems that all everyone wants to do is whine about the drop pod, and with all the whining going off the assumption that everything will go 100% right for the drop pod player (No scatter, make the leadership roll, Both librarian pods coming down 2nd turn, etc etc etc) and they don't want to have to actually...you know...Think...and use different tactics than they're used to using.

I've told you how to challenge a drop pod list, but all you want to do is plug your ears and whine about it instead.




Um, yes you did...

Look, Skyth, much as I'm tempted to just call you names, I'm going to give you a chance to back up your specious claims with some suggestions.

What "Tactics" would you use to survive the Drop Pod and Boo scenario I described. Remember, the game was Alpha Cleanse on a 4x4 table...

No, what I said is that if you had a balanced list and used tactics you shouldn't get swept away that easy. You definitely fall in the 'use some actual tactics camp'. Putting your command squad where it can all be hit by a flamer from a drop pod when you KNOW you're playing against a drop pod army is just plain stupid. And I DID tell you how to survive it. You just don't want to listen to anything besides someone agreeing with you that drop pods are the cheesiest thing out there.


Skyth your entire arguement appears to be centered around "tough tit if you sucked". You can keep suggesting your tactical plan to people, but unfortunatly it doesent always work like that. It does'nt matter how many bases you cover something will go wrong.

But, of course, it will never go wrong at all for the drop pod player, as the pods will always come down exactly where he wants them without scattering, and all his pods will come in exactly when he wants them to, and the librarian will ALWAYS pass the psychic test and your units will ALWAYS fail thier morale test. I call bull right there.

Lyinar
05-06-2006, 22:49
And exactly how do you propose to have the Drop Pod not land in the middle of your lines? Take enough models to have a solid 2"-apart grid over the entire board, barring terrain?

The Drop Pod FotD "tactic" has absolutely nothing to do with tactics, but is instead about random chance, most of which is in the favor of the High-LD Librarian who, thanks to the drop pod, can't scatter into terrain or your units and be instantly killed. If he casts the power, which is a probability, not a possibility (meaning that it will LIKELY happen), thanks to the -2 penalty to your LD score, you are thus LESS likely to be able to deal with it.

LD 10 means that you only fail the test on an 11 or a 12. Even if he rolls snake-eyes, the power still goes off while the Librarian's head catches fire. Conversely, for an LD8 unit, you have to roll a morale check at an effective LD6. That means that you have a 50% chance to fail on 2d6, and the average roll is HIGHER than a six.

Thus, Tau get absolutely raped by that power without Ethereals (and hey, there ARE people out there who have themed armies that DO NOT expose the leaders of the entire Tau way of life to enemy bullets), and only have a reasonable chance with them, instead of the kinds of nigh-guarantees that fully-Commissared-and-Voxed IG armies, Space Marines, Tyranids, and Necrons have.

Getz
05-06-2006, 23:20
Actually, yes. There are places a drop pod can't go. Namely, on top of your troops or impassible terrain. Plus if it goes off the board, it's destroyed along with all cargo. You can use this to your advantage. Plus drop pods DO scatter.

I'm going to quote the codex at you...

"When units in drop pods arrive you may place the anywhere on the table so long as it is not in impassable terrain or with 1" on an enemy model. Roll a scatter dice, if a hit results the pod lands on target otherwise it scatters 2D6" in the direction shown. If this movement would take into impasssble terrain of within 1" of an enemy model reduce the scatter disctance byt the minimum neccessary to avoid it/them"
Codex Space Marines, p21 - paragraph beginning bottom of first text column.

So while Drop pods do scatter, that are rarely destroyed by the effect and I don't remember my opponent choosing to Drop Pod within 8" of a table edge...


Actually, the tactic I was suggesting would keep your troops from running in the first place...With only a ~8% chance of running, not to mention limiting the number of squads that would have to make a check.

Your suggestion doesn't work. IG Command sections are too fragile and can be easily targeted by Drop Podding Marines. Furthermore, I don't possess any Inquisitors and a Psychic hood is hardly a reliable defence against ld 10 Librarians...


But it seems that all everyone wants to do is whine about the drop pod, and with all the whining going off the assumption that everything will go 100% right for the drop pod player (No scatter, make the leadership roll, Both librarian pods coming down 2nd turn, etc etc etc) and they don't want to have to actually...you know...Think...and use different tactics than they're used to using.

I've told you how to challenge a drop pod list, but all you want to do is plug your ears and whine about it instead.

But you're singularly failing to grasp that it's very hard for this strategy not to work... While Drop pods do scatter, they'll rarely kill their occupants and if aimed at the middle of an enemy formation rarely scatter too far either. The the Librarian might fail his Psychic test - the odds of that happening are about 1 in 12 for an Epistolary.

In short, it is virtually foolproof and requires absolutely no skill at all to pull off, just a little (and only a little!) luck.


No, what I said is that if you had a balanced list and used tactics you shouldn't get swept away that easy. You definitely fall in the 'use some actual tactics camp'. Putting your command squad where it can all be hit by a flamer from a drop pod when you KNOW you're playing against a drop pod army is just plain stupid. And I DID tell you how to survive it. You just don't want to listen to anything besides someone agreeing with you that drop pods are the cheesiest thing out there.

Right! I've had it with your know it all attitude.

The advice you've given me so far was worthless - the kind of stuff that a kid obsessed with Mathhammer would come up with - I had much of it already built into my army anyway. In actual play it was all useless because Drop Pods allow you to position squads by Deep Strike with great precision and next to no risk

Once again I'm going to ask you to tell me what tactics I should have used to stop my army routing on turn two. My army was spread out across my (small) deployment zone and I spread it out further in my first turn. Then the Librarian's drop pod flew in, deviated off my troops into the centre of my army, the two Librarians jumped out and scared most of my army off the table. I had an HQ squad with Commissar and Standard, but he targeted them specifically and killed them before casting the FotD.

In the one turn I had before the Drop Pods fell into play, what more could I have done? What "magic tactics" could have saved me? I really want to hear what you propose (and I want tactics, not a wholesale rewrite of my take-on-all-comers list).

In fact, do you even play Guard? Because it sounds to me like you don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about but don't have the balls to back down.

Tanith Ghost
05-06-2006, 23:24
To be honest, I did actually have a Commisar in there, as well as a Veteran squad and some Sentinels I forgot to mention. Needless to say, the Commissar died with the rest of the command squad...

Actualy, my army carries the full five commisars, given out to the lts, and NCO squads if there are 3 or less platoons.

That way, when the command squad is blown away, the army can still hold together from a FoD attack, and respond with some degree of firepower.

Skyth
06-06-2006, 00:15
I'm going to quote the codex at you...

"When units in drop pods arrive you may place the anywhere on the table so long as it is not in impassable terrain or with 1" on an enemy model. Roll a scatter dice, if a hit results the pod lands on target otherwise it scatters 2D6" in the direction shown. If this movement would take into impasssble terrain of within 1" of an enemy model reduce the scatter disctance byt the minimum neccessary to avoid it/them"
Codex Space Marines, p21 - paragraph beginning bottom of first text column.

So while Drop pods do scatter, that are rarely destroyed by the effect and I don't remember my opponent choosing to Drop Pod within 8" of a table edge...



What I was saying is that you can use the table edge to block off part of the possible place drop pods can land



Your suggestion doesn't work. IG Command sections are too fragile and can be easily targeted by Drop Podding Marines.

Not if you screen them with vehicles and the table edge. Not to mention put other units somewhat close so that a drop pod can't land close to your command squad (Keep them out of 12" and most things that drop can't even target them...They'd be out of range).



But you're singularly failing to grasp that it's very hard for this strategy not to work... While Drop pods do scatter, they'll rarely kill their occupants and if aimed at the middle of an enemy formation

What you're failing to grasp is what you need to do. There shouldn't be room for a drop pod to land in the middle of your formation. Drop pods are NOT a conventional army where standard deployment will work against them.



In short, it is virtually foolproof and requires absolutely no skill at all to pull off, just a little (and only a little!) luck.

The same can be said of any decent tactic if your opponent makes no attempt to counter it.



The advice you've given me so far was worthless -

Any advice is worthless if the other person doesn't listen to it. But you have this preconcieved notion that drop pods are invincible and won't listen to reason about them.



Once again I'm going to ask you to tell me what tactics I should have used to stop my army routing on turn two. My army was spread out across my (small) deployment zone and I spread it out further in my first turn.


That's your problem right there. You spread out, allowing the pods into the middle of your formation. That was akin to charging towards Khorne Beserkers/Tyranids with Guard, or a footslogging army advancing over open terrain against a shooty Guard army. As I've said many times, you needed to form a loose castle, anchoring one side of it with the board edge and having a semicircle of troops/vehicles with your command squad in the middle. Turn one, you could have moved the formation so as to claim two table quarters, or had the formation centered in the corner, protecting the command squad even better. Also, you should have used your vehicles to block line of sight to your command squad. The leadership rule works without line of sight. Using this formation also has the drop pods having about a 50% chance of scattering away from you, and possibly off the board edge. Once pods are down, they generally don't pack much long range firepower, so either they'll be meat for your superior firepower (As only about half thier army will be down), and they will be bunched up (Great for battlecannon shots), or they'll be at range to capture table quarters and you'll outgun them at range regardless.



In fact, do you even play Guard? Because it sounds to me like you don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about but don't have the balls to back down.

Actually, yes I do, though my guard is pretty heavily mechanized. That makes the drop pod less scary. And you're the one without the brains to back down and admit you played poorly, instead prefering to whine without basis about how you got beat by a drop pod list because you didn't bother to think about what a drop pod list could do. The problem wasn't the pod list, it was your tactics, or lack thereof.

Lyinar
06-06-2006, 00:50
Pardon me, but exactly how the hell is having all of your troops in one corner supposed to help? All that means is that the drop pod scatters to the EXACT edge of your tightly-packed 2" grid of troops and he STILL does the exact same thing.

And exactly what does list-building have to do with tactics? Some people can't afford a frakking mechanized Guard army to take in addition to their normal THEMED army just to use in case some cheesed-out Marine player decides to scare their entire army off the table.

Death Cat
06-06-2006, 08:03
But, of course, it will never go wrong at all for the drop pod player, as the pods will always come down exactly where he wants them without scattering, and all his pods will come in exactly when he wants them to, and the librarian will ALWAYS pass the psychic test and your units will ALWAYS fail thier morale test. I call bull right there.

Did i say at any point in my post that it always goes according to plan for the opposition, NO I DID NOT. Also your absolute egotism is unbeliveable " If you dont follow my tactic your obviously stupid" and "Drop pods can be beaten its just that you have no tactical knowledge what so ever".

Also your sly digs about peoples tactical competance are to say the least ungentlemanly, your trying to get your point across about your tactic yet you have to resort to slyly insulting the person whos asking your advice, seems a bit off to me. Instead of insulting people why dont you ask them about the situation they were in and try to inform them of how they could rectify it without using snide remarks.

Unseeing Eye
06-06-2006, 08:26
The thing is, Skyth, Drop pods are not unbeatable. Nothing is unbeatable. However, the drop army is very, very good. Sure, some armies might do okay. However, not everyone has the cash, patience at painting or theme to have Commisars, Ethereals etc walled off by vehicles. You listed some units earlier that can help counter pods, but not everyone wants to have those units. Even if your army is balanced usually, you can be completely buggered because you didn't take the unit that rocks drop pods. Just because your list does okay, doesn't mean everyone else can do the same. Against the majority of armies, Drop Pods rock. Sure, they can be handled with some armies, or even a joke against some (mobs of Ard Boyz...ahahah). However, they are still flagrantly overpowered.

Skyth
06-06-2006, 09:00
Also your sly digs about peoples tactical competance are to say the least ungentlemanly, your trying to get your point across about your tactic yet you have to resort to slyly insulting the person whos asking your advice, seems a bit off to me. Instead of insulting people why dont you ask them about the situation they were in and try to inform them of how they could rectify it without using snide remarks.


If someone was asking about how to beat drop pods, then yes, I would. However, when someone is whining about something being cheese, then they are the one being ungentlemanly. They're not actually looking for a solution to the problem, they're convinced there isn't one.

Death Cat
06-06-2006, 09:22
Yes but what im trying to get at is the fact that your snide remarks are inflaming the situation. Yes some people may whine, however some peoples " whining" is actually frustration. I personally believe there is a answer to every problem, and as i said if performed properly your suggested tactic should work, but in a game of dice where randomness is king you cant always get the result you want.

Yes i would quite happily play against a drop pod army however i would still believe the tactic to be unsportman like. My competative side thinks the idea is brilliant but i would rather have a fun enjoyable game than a game that is over in two turns and earns me the enmity of my opponant.

Lyinar
06-06-2006, 19:37
Drop Pod+Fear of the Darkness DOES equal cheese, and like all cheese armies, it either works insanely well, or it fails spectacularly (I am QUITE sure that people have lost games because their game-winning unit, the Librarian command squad in a Drop Pod, never even showed up). Against some armies, it's completely useless. Against a Necron Lord with a unit of Pariahs (which could come up if he either tries to take out the Res-Orb-brandishing Lord with his unit, or due to a bad scatter), a Librarian who tried it would most likely fail, and then get the EXACT same effect slung toward him in the Necron player's shooting phase, except he wouldn't be able to counter it as it's not a psyker power.

Against a tightly-packed grid (nothing further away than 2" from anything else) of, say, non-Commissar'ed IG infantry, however, all the Space Marine player would have to do is pick the edge of that grid and roll scatter. If he scatters into the Guardsmen, ALL that happens is that he reduces the scatter distance to EXACTLY the edge of the grid, unless he by some miracle manages to roll far enough on the scatter dice to go off the board, which is extremely unlikely.

Plus, if the Librarian is one of a handful of units in the army that's actually drop-podding in, the grid formation is a MAJOR handicap against all of the stuff that the Space Marine player already has on the board, due to most of your troops not being in cover. Standing out in the open with nothing but a 5+ armour save and a few support vehicles against an army whose crappiest weapon has AP5 is a pretty stupid idea.

Moving in the first turn instead of forming some idiotically-complex formation solely to ward off drop pods is tactical common sense. It's called moving into cover and taking up defensible positions to deal with the rest of the enemy army.

Skyth
06-06-2006, 23:07
Yes but what im trying to get at is the fact that your snide remarks are inflaming the situation.

Well, starting out by calling something cheese doesn't lead to a good conversation about tactics regardless. That's the point I'm trying to make. Actual unbalanced stuff is few and far between. Only thing I can think of off-hand is a Siren Daemonbomb. Yes, some tactics are more the trademark of a more powerful army. That does make them wrong or immoral as people who like to whine about alleged cheese persist claim in thier 'big lie'. Most of the high-end tactics/unit combinations can be handled by use of tactics, especially proper deployment by high-end armies.

I'm just tired of all the trolling done when people are faced by something that is powerful/requires a change in tactics to beat. Instead of adapting and trying to figure out how to beat it, there are the shrill accusation of it being immoral.

Skyth
06-06-2006, 23:10
Drop Pod+Fear of the Darkness DOES equal cheese, and like all cheese armies, it either works insanely well, or it fails spectacularly (I am QUITE sure that people have lost games because their game-winning unit, the Librarian command squad in a Drop Pod, never even showed up).



the grid formation is a MAJOR handicap against all of the stuff that the Space Marine player already has on the board

Make up your mind. In one part you claim that it's cheese because it's a 'game winning unit' that people can't win without. In the other, you claim that that unit is effectively irrelevant to winning or losing.

Lyinar
06-06-2006, 23:38
I notice that you completely forgot to quote the part where I said:


Plus, if the Librarian is one of a handful of units in the army that's actually drop-podding in

Then again, you've quoted several people out of context to support your "tactical advice", so I don't feel left out.

IF someone should happen to take a HYBRID Space Marine army instead of just drop-podding everything, you pretty much have a choice between deploying sensibly and dealing with the threat of the marines already on the table, or deploying in your alleged "formation", which I will call the "Let's Hold Hands and Sing So The Drop Pods Don't Land On Us Formation" to deal with the drop-pods.

Skyth
06-06-2006, 23:58
So a combined arms, balanced army is powerful. There's a new concept.

Besides, in a straight shooting match (especially long range shooting), guard will win vs marines. Especially when the guard army is concentrated, unless it's a weird variant of Guard with no heavy weapons, etc.

And the tactics I was offering was against a pure drop pod army. And even then, if you survive the boo, you're looking at at least 25% of a 1500 point army sitting there doing nothing very useful and dying quickly to concentrated guard shooting.

primarch16
07-06-2006, 00:13
Cheesy army list is Iron Warriors:

1 Deamon prince with the usual
9 oblits
Min/max Las Plas squads
Either 4 devastator squads or 4 defilers.

Nion unbeatable, I know I would be screwed sideways if my BT played this army. Infact, I wouldnt play this army, ever. (I dont go to tournaments)

Insta_AxE_Toast
07-06-2006, 00:19
How do people feel about drop pod armies that do not use librarians?

Wraithbored
07-06-2006, 00:35
Still hard to deal with but chalenging in a good way. And the librarian itself is not really THAT much a problem as the FoD power is.

Anathema
07-06-2006, 01:50
I agree with Skyth 100%, drop pods are beatable, and those tactics are valid. I use mech Biel Tan eldar and massacred an all drop pod army at the UK GT final by castling up one side of the table, so my units had further to run if Boo'd (remember you have a turn or 2 vs all drop pods in which you should be moving to negate the pods and boo and killing those speeders) and using terrain, vehicles and my troops to control a. where they could land and b. what they could affect. It worked so well my opponent landed most of his troops away from my castle to deal with a bait wraithlord and avoid the concentrated return fire (only 2 pods came down turn 2, and he knew I could take the hits and destroy those squads with my castle as I'd already killed the speeders), thus surrendering the mobility advantage to me. I could then pick off squads from range and finish off with assault. A couple of my squads ran, but not enough to make a difference.

With guard you need to hide that command squad deep in the castle, over 12" away to be precise, maybe behind terrain, suck up that turn of fire, and hit him back with everything, which should be a fair bit. With vox casters guard should have a fair chance of taking minimal casualties from Boo. Remember terrain is your friend, if the pod lands behind terrain, the squad can't see you, and you can get the hell away creating a killing ground for them to walk into. If the only places to land are near table edges, they may scatter off the table. If its a hybrid list, use a hybrid of different tactics, but castling for shooty guard is usually handy anyway. Like Skyth rather indelicately put it, if someone's suggesting a tactic, actually try it out before dismissing it. I knew exactly what he meant and it does work. Have a go!

Wraithbored
07-06-2006, 02:02
I agree with Skyth 100%, drop pods are beatable, and those tactics are valid. I use mech Biel Tan eldar and massacred an all drop pod army at the UK GT final by castling up one side of the table, so my units had further to run if Boo'd (remember you have a turn or 2 vs all drop pods in which you should be moving to negate the pods and boo and killing those speeders) and using terrain, vehicles and my troops to control a. where they could land and b. what they could affect. It worked so well my opponent landed most of his troops away from my castle to deal with a bait wraithlord and avoid the concentrated return fire (only 2 pods came down turn 2, and he knew I could take the hits and destroy those squads with my castle as I'd already killed the speeders), thus surrendering the mobility advantage to me. I could then pick off squads from range and finish off with assault. A couple of my squads ran, but not enough to make a difference.

With guard you need to hide that command squad deep in the castle, over 12" away to be precise, maybe behind terrain, suck up that turn of fire, and hit him back with everything, which should be a fair bit. With vox casters guard should have a fair chance of taking minimal casualties from Boo. Remember terrain is your friend, if the pod lands behind terrain, the squad can't see you, and you can get the hell away creating a killing ground for them to walk into. If the only places to land are near table edges, they may scatter off the table. If its a hybrid list, use a hybrid of different tactics, but castling for shooty guard is usually handy anyway. Like Skyth rather indelicately put it, if someone's suggesting a tactic, actually try it out before dismissing it. I knew exactly what he meant and it does work. Have a go! Thank you very much THIS does help a lot! Thx. :) At least now I stand a good chance vs. a drop pod boo.

GuardsManJared
07-06-2006, 06:36
Cheese is deliberatly building an army that you know will be the most unpleasant experience for any gamer to go up against and then using it all the time. In friendlies, against new players etc. The single goal of a cheese list is to win every game it plays, usualy by a massacre. Fun and enjoyment while playing are not needed due to the fact that you can take away the pleasure of winning yet again. Kahadras

Completely agree with that statement, as one of my friends makes sure to always take a command squad of doom that completely steam rolls over opposition and usually wins the game on its own.....his libraian being the biggest, ugliest sucker of them all.....through and through playing against any list of his that uses this command squad almost certainly ends up no fun for anyone except him....

tensions
07-06-2006, 06:59
an all genstealer army will dominant any close combat army... they eat khrone, daemon bomb or what ever..

but a sam hann or ravenwing armies can beat an all genstealer army easily..

but then, a 20+ dark lances dark eldar army will beat those sam hann/ ravenwing armies...

it just keep on going around a big circle..

i don't think there is really a "most cheesed out army".. it's all depend on what you playing against what you use at that time..

iylanden is not cheesy, wraithguards suck compare with their points.. (u just compare it with a necron immortal, and you will know what i mean)

Iron warrior is not cheesy either, obili cost "70 points" each, they are good but they do have their downside.

samn hann is no where near cheesy, they are paper planes with deadly gun, i have no problem VS one.

Khrone, slaaenesh 9 minor powers daemon bomb, and genstealers are ******* scary, but they are not unbeatable.


just my 2 cents.
tensions

cailus
07-06-2006, 07:26
Considering how slow and comparatively flimsy Wraithguard actually are, I find it very difficult to call them cheesy... Not to mention the fact that anyone who wants to make an Iyanden force has to pour unimaginable amounts of time, money, and effort into making their army.

http://gamesday.us.games-workshop.com/GamesDay2006/Baltimore_2006/Coverage/tourneyarmies/40k/17_sh.jpg

THAT, on the other hand, is a cheesy army. The only non-cheesy thing about it is the completely random selection of the throwaway special character for Saim-Hann.


Nice looking army.

I'd say my footslogging Orks are the cheesiest force in the unvierse. Last battle I played I destroyed a Necron army in 5 turns with the loss of one unit - a 12 Ork Shoota boy unit.