PDA

View Full Version : Eldar heavy support all cheese?



Ravenous
03-06-2006, 02:12
Ive been to a couple other forums and talked to alot of people recently about what they thought of the eldar heavy support choices and this is what I discovered:

Fire prisms: suck
Falcons: hard as hell to kill, only cheese if they have Crystal targeting matrix, and cant kill anything unless they have a farseer with guide near by.
Wraithlords: cheese no matter what you do. one gentlemen said he would instantly give his oppenent zeros in everything (tournament play) if they had one
warwalkers: fine as long as they dont take starcannons and brightlances
support batterys: D- cannons were the only thing mention saying they are crazy powerful, but short ranged, some went as far as saying they would never play against someone if they had D cannons
Dark Reapers: marines hate them for obvious reasons, but for the most part didnt care due to how easy they are to kill.

so does that mean the only thing I can take is fire prisms and warwalkers with shuriken cannons without being considered cheese?:wtf:

Warjammer
03-06-2006, 02:22
You need to get over the name calling. You are playing Eldar. No matter what you pick they will call 'cheese'. Take a nice mixture of any of the so called 'cheesy' choices than you will be fine.

Wraitlord has never been a problem.
Warwalkers have a hard time getting their points back. With 3 warwalkers with starcannons they could wipe out a squad of marines but so could a similar squad wipe out the walkers.

If you are coming across players that refuse to play you for the above reasons than you are better off. They would probably just complain the whole time.

Ravenous
03-06-2006, 02:28
agreed.
and the cheese thing is their words not mine. I hate that term, the english say beardy but im not sure which is worse.

Gotchaye
03-06-2006, 02:38
You're right in that that's just about all you can take that you won't get yelled at for. Also, most people won't care about Support Batteries - they're all rather useless, even the D-Cannon.

Orbital
03-06-2006, 02:57
Ive been to a couple other forums and talked to alot of people recently about what they thought of the eldar heavy support choices and this is what I discovered:

Fire prisms: suck
Falcons: hard as hell to kill, only cheese if they have Crystal targeting matrix, and cant kill anything unless they have a farseer with guide near by.
Wraithlords: cheese no matter what you do. one gentlemen said he would instantly give his oppenent zeros in everything (tournament play) if they had one
warwalkers: fine as long as they dont take starcannons and brightlances
support batterys: D- cannons were the only thing mention saying they are crazy powerful, but short ranged, some went as far as saying they would never play against someone if they had D cannons
Dark Reapers: marines hate them for obvious reasons, but for the most part didnt care due to how easy they are to kill.

so does that mean the only thing I can take is fire prisms and warwalkers with shuriken cannons without being considered cheese?:wtf:

I positively loathe generalizations like these. They're immature and, frankly, bad logic. What's more, it means I have to keep defending my Eldar for sins I've never committed.

Fire Prisms are great in the right context and with the right support. Would a Guided Fire Prism with CTM still suck? I dare say it starts to get a bit TOO good at that point.

Falcons are ONLY cheese if they have CTM, huh? That's where the line is, is it? So if I take 3 Falcons with Starcannons and Shuriken Cannons, I'm good so long as they don't use CTM? But if I take one Falcon with a Shuriken Cannon and no secondary and no upgrades other than CTM, it's cheese?

The Wraithlord argument is absurd.

I'm not even going to reply to the rest of this tripe. Sure, the Eldar army can field some pretty cheesy stuff, but it's always context. We always have to remember that.

TheSanityAssassin
03-06-2006, 03:18
Won't play someone with a D-Cannon? it's range is the same as a bolter, and it only has a small blast template...and 2 guardians as crew? sure it has a high strength, but the friggen Earthshaker cannon on a Basilisk is basically the same with triple the range and a big template.... *shakes head*

Sure Falcons are tough to kill, but they run ALOT of points, particularly compared to similar vehicles...only equally upgraded and hard to kill Chaos preds run the same cost...

The wraithlord guy is a tool...3 lascannons and its probably going to die...they AREN'T that hard to deal with people if you have half a tactical sense in your head...if you let it cross the table and get into CC with you, then you've done something wrong...Sure taking 3 is a bit over the top, (ok, alot over the top) but that comment is absurd...

The warwalkers sure they get a silly amount of fire, but they cost way too many points and die really fast...

Reapers, yes they're nasty...but they cost a ton too, and die really quick if you know how to fight em....


Basically my strategy with people like that is to just flip em off and ignore them...if they're making comments like that they obviously don't feel like having fun with the game, and obviously also don't feel like learning to play it properly....

Ravenous
03-06-2006, 03:57
I positively loathe generalizations like these. They're immature and, frankly, bad logic. What's more, it means I have to keep defending my Eldar for sins I've never committed.

Fire Prisms are great in the right context and with the right support. Would a Guided Fire Prism with CTM still suck? I dare say it starts to get a bit TOO good at that point.

Falcons are ONLY cheese if they have CTM, huh? That's where the line is, is it? So if I take 3 Falcons with Starcannons and Shuriken Cannons, I'm good so long as they don't use CTM? But if I take one Falcon with a Shuriken Cannon and no secondary and no upgrades other than CTM, it's cheese?

The Wraithlord argument is absurd.

I'm not even going to reply to the rest of this tripe. Sure, the Eldar army can field some pretty cheesy stuff, but it's always context. We always have to remember that.

I agree that this is tripe I as a eldar player myself always seem to get called cheese for taking any of these units (or take anything with a starcannon). I just heard it so many times for different players I wanted to see the general concensus on all the heavy support choices. what I discovered unfortunatly was this.

btw Great coverage of gamesday toronto

Orbital
03-06-2006, 04:07
Is it me, or does the "List O' Cheese" sound a little weird? Like, basically, "if I can be killed without having to resort to any tactics whatsoever, it qualifies as cheese".

Ardathair
03-06-2006, 04:16
Eldar are designed to be a shooting army, and people whine about their ability to shoot.:wtf:

The Star cannon issue has been beet to hell and back, as well as Wraithlords. (They're slow, and you don't get any whining about S4 not touching a Dreadnought, but a Wraithlord should die to bolters. :wtf: )

Haven't heard the cries about Dark Reapers, then again most players I have met are too buisy whining about Wraithlords, Warwalkers with Star cannons, and Fire Prisms to notice them.


one gentlemen said he would instantly give his oppenent zeros in everything (tournament play) if they had one

1) He is no gentleman with an attitude like that.
2) If I found out he gave someone those marks just for taking 1 Wraithlord, I would give him the same in sportsmanship. Probably wouldn't look too favorably on the rest of his scores either.

P.S. I'm thinking about running an Iyundan force with 1 squad of 5 Wrathguard, 1 Wraithlord, and the rest of the points in other stuff. Just telling my opponent I'm running Iyundan will send them into such a fit, he'll rework his army and end up with lascannons and plasmaguns firing on Guardians or Rangers, and whining everytime I make a cover save.:p :evilgrin:

Ravenous
03-06-2006, 04:35
Is it me, or does the "List O' Cheese" sound a little weird? Like, basically, "if I can be killed without having to resort to any tactics whatsoever, it qualifies as cheese".

thats exactly the feeling from it I was getting.

Exarch
03-06-2006, 04:45
People have been calling Eldar "cheesy" since the '80's no matter what you field, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Just make a list that you like and play. Let them whine all they want.

Smoking Frog
03-06-2006, 05:42
I could walk to the fridge and pull out SM and CSM options cheesier than that.

The definition of cheese is therefore "If my units die to your shooting, it's cheesy".

Take Dark Reapers aagainst SM's as many times as you want. Don't worry about those who whine about starcannons, take a few of them too. So long as you can meet any opponent and you have a perfectly balanced and flavoursome list, tell said gentlemen who give 0's if you have wraithlord that they have no idea what they are crapping in their pants about.

TheSanityAssassin
05-06-2006, 01:51
I find the best way to cure the "you're list is cheesy" syndrome is to show them how cheesy it could be...

My list generally to always has 2 starcannons, no more no less, and 1 wraithlord, often having none, and a unit or 2 of 3 dark reapers....people bitched about it being cheesy...

So it took like 3 squads of reapers, (biel tan) 2 stacannon guardian squads, 3 starcannon vypers, 3 wraithlords, starcannon wave serpents...Killed almost a whole SM army in turn 1 shooting...

"THAT is cheesy...."

they shut up....

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 13:43
As long as not all choices are the same, I would be okay with it. I mean:

- 1 Wraithlord... sure why not.
- 3 Wraithlords.... wahaha, you're kidding man right?

- 1 Tricked out Falcon.... a man you must have a real small ****, but take youre little unkillable thingy, I'll have some more zap-guns
- 3 Tricked out Falcons.... Okay, some other players around that like to play?

- 1 Tricked out falcon, D-Cannons, a Wraithlord.... I think it just has to be? But woah, you even took some banshees.... and defender squads without star cannons. A why not.

As long as an armylist uses different choices, and not only the "good" ones, I for my part wouldn't complain. And if its not overtailored to my list of course.




I find the best way to cure the "you're list is cheesy" syndrome is to show them how cheesy it could be...

My list generally to always has 2 starcannons, no more no less, and 1 wraithlord, often having none, and a unit or 2 of 3 dark reapers....people bitched about it being cheesy...


Really? I mean, whats the cheese on this list? 1 WL? 2 SC?
As long as it was more than 500 points, I'd say fix your opponents instead of your list ;)

I can't stand marine player that want to play on a table without at least 50% covered with terrain. And then complain if enemy players take even one or two Plasmaweapons to still stand a chance.

As long as there is enough cover, no-one has to tailor their army against marines. Most tournament tables just freak me out, I would refuse to play with so few cover.

Wraithbored
05-06-2006, 14:02
Cripes not another of these threads, listen like Orbital pretty much summed it up. Yes Eldar vehicles are tough but saavy tacticians often take mine out by flanking them or *gasp* concentrating firepower on one until it's down. Eldar are NOT a swarm army, and if you shot down a a falcon you've done a great dent into their army, and I hardly think that it takes your entire 1500pts force shooting to bring one down.

As for the lone wraithlord comment. I hope he accidentaly drinks a large ammount of tabasco sauce.

What this all boils down to: Have a varied selection of heavy support choices. It's also more fun for you! Imagine doing the same thing with all three!? As for the variety it makes it a lot more interesting to think ok this will do this and that will do that.

xiophen
05-06-2006, 14:31
I gues Im cheesie then damn me for likling my 2 wraithlord that I field at 1500 or above becuase I have done a really nice conversion on each or for th fac that my current philosophy is usually 1 star cannon per 500 points.
Or thew fact that I run 2 dire avenger squads.

Eldar will alwasy be called cheesie because thats the kewl fashionabl thing to do. besides which to many players today refuse to actually try something they havnt fought or have to actually have to spend some time working out how to fihgt the non cookie cutter MEQ type army.

Wraithbored
05-06-2006, 14:34
I gues Im cheesie then damn me for likling my 2 wraithlord that I field at 1500 or above becuase I have done a really nice conversion on each or for th fac that my current philosophy is usually 1 star cannon per 500 points.
Or thew fact that I run 2 dire avenger squads.
Yes indeed thou art such a cheese mongler for liking your converted minis! Hiis and Boo and all that goes with it.:p

On topic. WL aren't that great, yes T8 but T8 that plods along at 6" a turn and not a lot of cover to hide and not let itself get shot? Dire threat indeed. As for you conversions any chance of seeing pix?:D

xiophen
05-06-2006, 15:07
Yes indeed thou art such a cheese mongler for liking your converted minis! Hiis and Boo and all that goes with it.:p

On topic. WL aren't that great, yes T8 but T8 that plods along at 6" a turn and not a lot of cover to hide and not let itself get shot? Dire threat indeed. As for you conversions any chance of seeing pix?:D


Ill try to post them see If I ca find my camera :)

Lord Malachi
05-06-2006, 15:18
Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. It usually boils down to what Smoking Frog said, "If my units die to your shooting, it's cheesy". Any unit/weapon in 40k can be countered with good tactics. I hate the space elves, but I wouldn't call them cheesy at all. The only complaint I have about the Eldar is the cost of the Wraithlord, it should probably cost a little bit more considering it has 3 wounds, high toughness and some hard weapons (i.e. starcannon :cries: ). As far as anyone who would refuse to play against a legal army I say stop being a crybaby and learn some tactics.

Vet.Sister
05-06-2006, 16:06
As a player of Battle Sisters, I don't care much for eldar. But most of their advantages are the same ones for IG(shooty) & SM(shooty). What it boils down to is this......
I know two people at my store who play eldar. I hate the first guy's lists, because he is such powergamer/twink! 3 Wraithlords, 2 jetbikes, 2 wave sepents with Banshees and Fire Dragons, the Avatar, and then some rangers or other squad depending on points left over. Every single unit is tricked out to the maximum! If you play for objectives, he always hides! He manuevers around until he can setup all his combos into one LETHAL turn!

The other guy always puts the good stuff in his list, but he doesn't min/max it! He's a challenge to play, but he does include elements in his army that aren't the best thing he could field for the points. (ie. sometimes he plays with units he likes, even though his opponent can deal with them quite easily)

Where am I going with this? Until I got to play the second guy regularly, I was firmly in the camp of Eldar = CHEEZE!!!
Personally, I still don't care for the Biel-Tan list. Far too open too abuse! But it's still good against that cheezy SM, CSM, etc, etc...... list!

Ultimately (as others have said) it's not the army, it's the player.........

EDIT - Stupid typos!

Grand Master Raziel
05-06-2006, 17:04
Ravenous, don't let yourself get too bent out of shape about what other players think. Everybody has something that they consider cheesy. Heck, play an army list that has only Shuriken Cannons as its heavy weapons long enough, and some opponent will eventually decry your beard. IMO, you CAN do cheesy things with an Eldar list (particularly some of the variants), but that doesn't mean that any particular thing, in and of itself, is cheesy. Now, let's look at what you got.


Fire prisms: suck

I suppose I'm inclined to agree.


Falcons: hard as hell to kill, only cheese if they have Crystal targeting matrix, and cant kill anything unless they have a farseer with guide near by.

Situational. 3 Falcons in a 1000 point list would be damn hard to deal with for most armies. 3 Falcons in a 2000 point list...well, they're still hard to deal with, but the armies you're facing have more to deal with them with, so it's not as unreasonable. Personally, if I were an Eldar player, my Falcons would get Holofields and Spirit Stones, not CTMs. I'd put CTMs on Vypers instead.


Wraithlords: cheese no matter what you do. one gentlemen said he would instantly give his oppenent zeros in everything (tournament play) if they had one

Now, that's unreasonable. Said "gentleman" does not deserve that appellation. Again, the fairness of WLs is situational. Three in a 1000 point list is asking for the "cheese" appellation. 3 in a 2000 point list is reasonable - I'd rather go up against 3 WLs than 3 Falcons with Holofields and Spirit Stones.


warwalkers: fine as long as they dont take starcannons and brightlances

Really, only noobs get that enervated over starcannons and brightlances. Us non-noobs have read the Eldar Codex and realize that there's not really anything else worth taking.


support batterys: D- cannons were the only thing mention saying they are crazy powerful, but short ranged, some went as far as saying they would never play against someone if they had D cannons

Support Batteries are kind of rare. The only time I ever saw D-cannons get fielded, I was playing my Daemonhunters army, and immediately laid into them with every psycannon I had on the table. That took care of the D-cannons.


Dark Reapers: marines hate them for obvious reasons, but for the most part didnt care due to how easy they are to kill.

As a heavy support choice, DRs are obnoxious, but not unreasonable. They get cheesy in a Biel Tan army, where they can be taken as Troop choices, if the Biel Tan player is playing the Reaperwind army - which is to say all his Troop choices being Dark Reapers. If he's playing a characterful mix of Aspects with DRs being one of many, then there's no foul there.

Sildani
05-06-2006, 17:33
Falcons are hard to kill? Sure, but let your opponent glance it enough and he/she'll roll a 5 and a 6 for the Holofield results. You more than likely moved more than 6" to take advantage of the Skimmers Moving Fast USR, so ka-blam! and now your expensive Aspect Warriors/Seer Council or what-have-you are now dead, entangled, and your 190+ point tank is gone.

The Falcon's a tough nut to crack, but when you do there's lots of delicious meat inside. Mmmm... pecans...

Oh, and as for Witchhunters being challenging: perhaps, but the last time I played against them, it was against an all-Sisters force, with 12 Faith Points, two Litanies, and a full measure of those Simulacrum Imperialis things. Three Immolators, and lots of Sisters in a phalanx. They just stormed ahead, and boy are those Faith Points annoying. 3+ invulnerable save! +2 Strength! +2 Initiative! Common bolter fire is now AP 1! With that Simulacrum thing virtually guaranteeing those Faith Points working, all with BS 4, WS 4 and a 3+ armor save. I'm not disputing that Witchhunters are tough to use, but that army didn't seem to need much tactical foresight.

Michaelius
05-06-2006, 17:53
Heh reading things like these i bet some of those people mentioned in the start of thread would get a heart attack seeing my tournament list with 2x pathfinder 4 or 5x rangers 2 WL and Falcon + 3 vypers :D

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 19:12
I gues Im cheesie then damn me for likling my 2 wraithlord that I field at 1500 or above becuase I have done a really nice conversion on each or for th fac that my current philosophy is usually 1 star cannon per 500 points.
Or thew fact that I run 2 dire avenger squads.

Eldar will alwasy be called cheesie because thats the kewl fashionabl thing to do. besides which to many players today refuse to actually try something they havnt fought or have to actually have to spend some time working out how to fihgt the non cookie cutter MEQ type army.

Not in my book.... My credo is:
Max 1 MC per 500 - 750 points.

So in my eyes, 2 WL in 1500 are completly cool. Far away from beeing cheesy.

To much player worry more about Armylists and Winning than about actual tactics (no, "rhino-rush" or "CC-Fast-Forward" are NO tactics if you ask me) or.... gasp.... having fun, beeing a sporty player and making up a funny story about how their General lost his money in a drinking contest to the opponents Warboss and now want it back (A well, making up nice stories, you know what I mean ;))

Then, "cheese" is no problem.

Michaelius
05-06-2006, 22:07
Why do you think you can't have fun with strong armylist made for winning ? As long as both sides show similar power then it's fine.

Escaflowne_Z
05-06-2006, 22:44
To my mind, it comes down to the way in which the Eldar player chooses units. I've played against the cookie cutter Ulthwe list and been destroyed (as Tau). Terrain/railguns/pulse fire didn't matter.

Then again, I've played against a veteran Eldar player who plays Biel-tan and had a blast. Scary as Michael Jackson, but a good player with a well-thought out list.

What bugs me is when Eldar players grab a load of this, and a load of that, and then some of that too, and suddenly can wafflestomp any army in the game. Problem. Game balance out of whack. Hopefully the new codex will fix this. *crosses fingers*

AgentZero
05-06-2006, 23:05
Ive been to a couple other forums and talked to alot of people recently about what they thought of the eldar heavy support choices and this is what I discovered...........

....that people are idiots and you give them power and attention by addressing their stupidity.

Cheese is abusing a list, not using a unit.
Cheese is min/maxing, or pushing the limits/loopholes to the edge.
Having a StarCannon is not cheese.Min/maxing to get 8 is.
Having a Wraithlord isn't cheese.Dropping one (or two) in a min/maxed army is.
Samething applies to the other armies.
Min/maxing for Plasma or AssaultCannons....etc...

It's all the same.
You're just exposed to a lot of stupid people and you give them too much credit.

You can thank GW for that. Dumbing down the rules from RT to 2nd to 3rd to 4th only allows younger, less enlightened people in, mucking everything up.

paddyalexander
05-06-2006, 23:39
Pick what you think will work best in your army. If its from your codex I've no problem with you fielding it. What worries me about your post is the guy who'd give you zero points just for fielding a Wraithlord. Thats like me saying the same thing about terminators, broadsides, carnifaxes, pariahs, landraiders, obliterators etc.

The only good news is that more than likely he'd have to explain why he gave you a 0 points (which no longer applies in the new tournament rules anyway) to a ref and will get penelized for it.

Also take note that all of the Eldar weapons that are being called cheesy/beardy are ultra effective at knocking out Marines. I get the same thing for fielding Fireknife suits in my Tau army... Sorry I'll remove all AP 3 or better weapons from my list or I'll tell you what you can do. You roll the dice I'll go to the pub for an hour and come back & you can tell me who won.

The entries in the Eldar Codex are valid. I find Wraithlords hard to take care of with some of my armies but not with others. If I don't have something in my army list that can take down a monster like that then its my own fault not yours.

Warlord Kyle
06-06-2006, 00:36
the onlything i know is a eldar starcannon killed every single one of my synapse creatures in the first turn of my first ever tournement match.
....it was an elimination....
needless to say i lost
in my books all eldar heavt suppurt is awsome and im a tyranid/ork player:D

Kriegsherr
06-06-2006, 00:46
Why do you think you can't have fun with strong armylist made for winning ? As long as both sides show similar power then it's fine.

I didn't say you can't have fun against "strong armylists". But:

What are strong armylists?
- Boring ones were only the "best" choices are taken?
- Armylists made with a certain tactic in mind?
- Armylists tailored against a certain army?

why do some people always assume, that the opponent wants to play the same level as they? Is it so hard to ask "Do you want to tailor? Do you want to powergame? Do you want to play nice? And how good are with using your army?"

It might sound retarded, but if all players would be honest, and actually say what they want to get from a game, it would be more fun for everyone.

I do martial arts... if you tell someone "Okay, please punch less hard", and this person don't react acordingly and limit his punching power, you can also punch harder. Faster. Let yourself get angry. try to really hurt him (hey, there are controlled punches and uncontrolled ones. The first ones hurt but don't injure you. The second ones on the other hand.... one of this broke my nose this year. A well, I the one responsible is a nice chap, but this one punch was just uncontrolled). Then you are the ****. Maybe he reacts the same way. And soon its almost about life and death.
Some "hardcore" tourny types might still will like to fight him because at tournies, its all a little bit harder. and you better be prepared.

But the normal people don't like fighting him anymore. And I tell you, I really like to fight people with skill. Even if it gets hard. Even if hes above my level, and he get more hits than I score. As long as he controls himself, gives me good advice and is willing to lower his level if I are too much below his own normal level, I really enjoy fight against better Fighters.
What I can't stand are people who have to raise their ego by just beating the crap outta me. This is an immature thing they can do at a tourny. But not in a training, or a friendly. As our sifu (master) always says: see it as a game, play with your partner. You do it to improve yourself, and because its fun.

I often train with newcomers with only two years of expieriences. I can control the strength of my punches very well, but sometimes I'm just too fast for them. Well, you can improve your speed and reaction time remarkably through constant training. So I have to fight in "slow motion" To give them enough time to react to my actions... and slow down my own reactions to give them an opportunity to score a clean hit. But by limiting myself in this way, I also gain something. I can analyze my techniques better then when I fight at full speed... all those reactions you don't control... that I have learned over the years, maybe up to a point were its hard to change the reaction.
Its maybe another kind of lesson than fighting with someone more expierienced would give you. But I like it. I get something out of it. And as a bonus I see how the newcomers enjoy it. How I can help them getting better.

Beeing able to lower your skill to your opponents, and raising it again if your opponent gets to imprudent, is what differences the master (or master pupil ;)) from the mere pupil.


but back to the point.

I don't build my armylists to WAAC. And I expect the same of my opponent. And if someone has an armylist im not okay with, its my right to complain. Because its a game, and both players should have fun playing it. The opponent has the same right. If he is not okay with something I take, I'll change it.
Having an army you're opponent looks forward to play, and gives him the feeling of having an equal chance to win, makes the game even better for you.

If you want to play WAAC, thats fine. Just find someone who has the same expectations from the game and the opponent. And have fun.

Ravenous
06-06-2006, 06:56
I am hardly new at eldar I have been playing them since second ed. so my armies are pretty down pack. so I am no Noob at this. its just I have noticed especially recently that I was getting boo's for taking 3 warwalkers with starcannons/brightlances, it didnt make sense as they are easy as hell to kill all it takes is a strong breeze or harsh language and they are nothing but smoking craters. so I switched it up for another tourny with 1 wraithlord and a falcon, again booo's. now since I am in a tournament enviroment it would be hardly appropriate to tell them where to go followed by a hand gesture but I was getting close because I was sick of hearing the cry of eldar cheese. This is when I said ******* it and took the cheesiest army ever

Alaitoc with 7 units of rangers, 3 of pathfinders 3 walkers 2 wraithlords, farseer and a vyper.

I got high sportsmanship, selection, painting and generalship and won the bloody tournament :wtf:

It is stupid people, the ones that hate eldar for sins of the past, or just those who do not understand them or ever bothered to read their rules. they cry cheese because they cant be arsed to get the codex.

so I learned a valuable lesson, let them boo dont let it get to you, because at the end of the day you will be covered in their blood, standing atop of a mound of broken bodies. victorious

either that or I just went against 4 other people that really enjoyed playing 40k and didnt care what I played. and that is the way it should be.

Vet.Sister
07-06-2006, 18:44
Oh, and as for Witchhunters being challenging: perhaps, but the last time I played against them, it was against an all-Sisters force, with 12 Faith Points, two Litanies, and a full measure of those Simulacrum Imperialis things. Three Immolators, and lots of Sisters in a phalanx. They just stormed ahead, and boy are those Faith Points annoying. 3+ invulnerable save! +2 Strength! +2 Initiative! Common bolter fire is now AP 1! With that Simulacrum thing virtually guaranteeing those Faith Points working, all with BS 4, WS 4 and a 3+ armor save. I'm not disputing that Witchhunters are tough to use, but that army didn't seem to need much tactical foresight.

A bit OT...
Well, to be completely honest, the most annoying thing Battle Sisters can do is the 3+ invulnerable save. Quickly followed by the AP1 shooting Act of Faith.
I'd have to disagree about the Simulacrum Imperialis, the squad size is the real deal! the SI helps by giving an extra die to roll. Combine the two, and YES it almost guarantees success for the AoF. IIRC The only WS4 units are Seraphim and Celestians (plus Canoness). The stuff the WH fielded begins to have a hint or cheese. Three Immolators?!? they're not that great, but three? 12 Faith points AND two Litanies! I'm a WH player and I smell cheese! The stat lines for both armies are similar, so CC shouldn't be a huge deal.
JMO :)

Lord Solar Plexus
07-06-2006, 19:20
Won't play someone with a D-Cannon? it's range is the same as a bolter, and it only has a small blast template...and 2 guardians as crew? sure it has a high strength, but the friggen Earthshaker cannon on a Basilisk is basically the same with triple the range and a big template.... *shakes head*


Huh? The Earthshaker is S9, AP3. While the respctive S may not matter much (they do for instant death), it's AP 2 vs. range and ordnance. And isn't the Basilisk more expensive?

Having said that I don't consider many things to be cheesy, not even large Seer Councils. They are a huge nuisance but can be really expensive, too, so there might not be may things left for all those Fortunes and Guides.

Wraithlords: Tough, but anyone who can deal with 2+ Fexes or a Greater Deamon or 2 Landraiders can deal with 2 WLs.

What might be cheesy is an army with maxed vehicles + CTM, all doing nothing but pop-ups all the time...(and yes, I've been voicing some concern over this in different threads).