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View Full Version : Hellguns Should be "Rapid-Fire 3"



Darkwand
03-06-2006, 16:39
Against the vast majority of troops the Hellgun is no different then a Lasgun, Stormtroopers are supposed to have supperior equipment so I think it would be fitting to enable them to rapid fire 3 shots instead of the usual 2.
This would also fit in with the guard as being an army that uses firepower to dispense with the enemy rather then hand to hand combat.

Mojaco
03-06-2006, 16:41
Rapid fire is a set rule. So this would complicate things too much. So take a pick; heavy 3 or maybe assault 2.
Personally I'd like re-roll to wound.

Black DH templ.
03-06-2006, 16:54
Assault 2 would be fitting I guess.;)

Philhelm
03-06-2006, 17:01
Why not just strength four with no AP value? It would be better than a lasgun but still not as good as a boltgun. Seriously, the weakness of the hellgun undermines the stormtroopers' abilities as an elite unit.

William McCoy
03-06-2006, 17:23
What, exactly, makes them different for Lasguns on DoW? I know that seems like a stupid question, but they seem rather effective there. I know that DoW doesn't really transfer to table-top, but if a change could be made in the same vein, would that be able to fix the problem?

Pilgrimsp
03-06-2006, 17:32
You seem to have missed the point that they have targeters and the ability to have 2 special weapons with a BS of 4, stormtroopers are great.....i'm sure thats not what your saying?

Sanjuro
03-06-2006, 18:47
I guess the point of hellguns is that GW just does not want to see IG troops (even elite troops) have S4 basic weaponry. It doesn't befit them.

drewxfu1
03-06-2006, 18:53
I agree, hellguns are fine as they are. In 2nd edition storm troopers had strength 4 weaponry but there stats were not that good. Having AP5 weapons against lightly armored opponents does make a difference.

Zurai
03-06-2006, 19:07
What, exactly, makes them different for Lasguns on DoW? I know that seems like a stupid question, but they seem rather effective there. I know that DoW doesn't really transfer to table-top, but if a change could be made in the same vein, would that be able to fix the problem?

In DoW, Hellguns fire a LOT faster than Lasguns. About three times the fire rate IIRC.

ExoCowboy
03-06-2006, 19:16
Having a BS of 4 also helps... I have seen stormtroopers do some serious damage to even marines with their shots, and against 5+ save armies this is even more true.

Caboose
03-06-2006, 20:02
a hellgun is just a superpowered torch
a lasgun in a tourch

there fine as they are

still mean orks and most guard and some eldar get no saves

BrainFireBob
03-06-2006, 20:03
It's a d6 system. The hellgun used to be between a lasgun and a bolter. the system as established does not have the fine gradation to represent the hellgun being better than a lasgun yet definitely below a bolter.

Chem-Dog
03-06-2006, 20:30
Hellgun used to BE a bolter, When it was introduced in Ed2 it was a S4 lasgun (and in Necromunda it even has the same Ammo roll).

I think the hellgun is fine, the AP is usefull against certain opponants and pointless against others, the same way that most troop firearms are. Anyway the Hellgunners are there to soak up the hits for the plasmagunners.

Piku
03-06-2006, 21:15
Did it not have a different long range modifier though?

But yeah, the only forces which hellguns suffer against are marines, chaos marines and Necrons, which is appropriate since they are meant to be nails (just hit 'em with battle cannons).

Remember that Tau and adepta sorrorita will be wounded on fours meaning a higher number of saves to potentially fail.

I think that the increased ballistic skill is more in keeping with the elite character of stormtroopers than having a las-hose.

Sanjuro
03-06-2006, 22:12
And the main thing to remember here is also that the hellgun is indeed a fierce weapon - it pierces completely the flak armour, which is worn by 95% of the Imperium's armed forces. Keeping in mind that the most common opponents for guardsmen are other similarly armed and armoured humans - traitors, pirates, rebels or dissident planetary defense forces. Against these, the hellgun is a virtual killing-machine - it is 33% more effective than the lasgun at inflicting kills! (assuming a 5+ armour on the enemy) Xenos only account for a minority of the regular guardsman's encounters.

AUN'SHI
03-06-2006, 22:18
I like that ur avatar sesshomaru but that is it.

Rapid fire 3 yeah right.... And all tau units should be able to get rail guns.

Tau weponary is much better than any other army.. Why would the imperial gaurd have better technology than the tau......

Sorry dude gonna have to go with no on that one.

Ironhand
03-06-2006, 22:31
The hellgun is fine just as it is.

Smoking Frog
04-06-2006, 00:49
Assault 2 at the very most. I wouldn't want to see increased anything other than that. I find them fine as is.

They are still exceptional at taking out annoying opponents, like the Tau...

Zzarchov
04-06-2006, 01:16
S4 AP- would make more sense

Kriegsherr
04-06-2006, 02:15
Stormtroopers really can hurt ork boyz if they move up close well timed. Two flamers and several hellguns.... ouch! So what if they only save every sixth ork against normal lasguns... if I have the choice between 5 or 6 dead orks....

They ARE trickyer to use than those nasty marines. But don't try to measure things with SM, or it gets weird.
And marines and sisters should be quite nastier at close distance than the stormtroopers... They have far superior equipment.... why the point difference is so small is a mystery to me though.

ss_cherubael
04-06-2006, 02:51
assault 2 would be a nice touch, but they play well how they are, the old s4 ones were just strange, the whole targeter thing is also something to remember. and as said before if you have a problem that cant be solved fire a battle cannon at it and it will soon go away.

Zzarchov
04-06-2006, 04:19
A S3 AP5 laser seems alot stranger to me than a S4 AP-

a MULTILASER, a huge laser mounted on vehicles, is only AP6

why is the Hellgun better than this at piercing armour?

General Samuel of the 101
04-06-2006, 04:23
and what about making it 4 str and 6 Ap?
it weaker than the bolter and there is no need for point change

shutupSHUTUP!!!
04-06-2006, 04:37
The hellgun combined with BS4 is fairly good against low save opponents, but I don't "waste" my expensive squad of storm troopers shooting guardians, fire warriors or ork boys. Your thinking of them as a front-line unit which is not how I use them or see them used or how, in my opinion, the way they should be used.

I give them a plasma pistol sergeant and two plasma guns, then I deep strike them right into the enemy army and give hell to something my regular infantry are not effective enough against. Sometime I infiltrate them with meltaguns.

Whenever I deploy them as I would a normal infantry squad they always under-perform compared to what they can achieve if I'm bold with them, more often than not this not not involve fighting "weak" enemies. The guardsmen can handle it.

The hellgun doesn't fit with the ethos of the unit currently. So the suggestion of making them assault weapons instead of rapid fire weapons does seem a better idea, there are actually fairly common situations against many armies where I want them to be in combat, so the hellgun just goes unused entirely.

18" str3 ap5 assault 2?

General Samuel of the 101
04-06-2006, 04:44
that look better in my opinion
"Stormtroopers"
they should be the Shock Troops of the army
laying a array of fire before charging and keeping the enemy occupied

Goq Gar
04-06-2006, 04:47
Personally, I find hellguns just slightly above throwing rocks at your enemy. My friend chris deepstruck 20 of the "Stormy boys" behind my kroot. Firing at random, he fell a mighty 4 of them while they ducked in cover. wow... *SCHLASH!* the assault phase was only slightly worse than the shooting phase, and my kroot ate well...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
04-06-2006, 04:53
The 7 hellgun armed troopers in a 10 man squad are only likely to kill three or four T3 5+ save or worse save infantry themselves, while the sergeant and special weapons may account for more. They are best spent on more worthwile tasks for 150 points, otherwise you may as well take 20 guardsmen with some heavy bolters and grenade launchers.

NotElite
04-06-2006, 05:08
I think assault 1 would be fine. Let them shot and charge, I hate rapid fire rules...

scarvet
04-06-2006, 08:10
Why will you hate rapid fire as guardsmen? Hellgun is ok, but i will be happier if they have S4.
If you look at the stormtroopers, they have frag/krak bulit in and BS4 Sv4+ Ld8 plus targeter at 10pts each, which is very good.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
04-06-2006, 09:34
I think he is saying that because he hates the rapid fire rules, he wants Storm Troopers to only fire one shot, ignoring the fact that every other rapid fire weapon in the game will still exist... :eyebrows:

Kriegsherr
04-06-2006, 11:22
The hellgun combined with BS4 is fairly good against low save opponents, but I don't "waste" my expensive squad of storm troopers shooting guardians, fire warriors or ork boys. Your thinking of them as a front-line unit which is not how I use them or see them used or how, in my opinion, the way they should be used.

I give them a plasma pistol sergeant and two plasma guns, then I deep strike them right into the enemy army and give hell to something my regular infantry are not effective enough against. Sometime I infiltrate them with meltaguns.

Whenever I deploy them as I would a normal infantry squad they always under-perform compared to what they can achieve if I'm bold with them, more often than not this not not involve fighting "weak" enemies. The guardsmen can handle it.

The hellgun doesn't fit with the ethos of the unit currently. So the suggestion of making them assault weapons instead of rapid fire weapons does seem a better idea, there are actually fairly common situations against many armies where I want them to be in combat, so the hellgun just goes unused entirely.

18" str3 ap5 assault 2?


In my expirience they are quite good against orks or other IG troopers. And their armour means, they just last longer, two flamers in the squad help too.

But granted, the assault idea sounds nice. Especially because the Lasgun that should represent a hellgun in =I= had a much shorter range than the normal Mars pattern one. But a higher rate of fire.

Assault 2 18 " sounds neat. I have to propose this to my IG opponents, as it would even more encourage a close range firefight role that in my eyes the stormtroopers are thought for.
And would make them even nastier against my orks.... I must be insane :)

tuebor
04-06-2006, 12:47
The hellgun isn't quite as bad as people think. Funnily enough, point per point a Stormtrooper with a hellgun is just as efficient at killing Marines as Marines are.

1/(1/3)/(1/3)/(2/3)=13.5 Stormtroopers to kill a Marine. 135 points per dead Marine

1/(1/3)/(1/2)/(2/3)=9 Marines to kill a Marine. 135 points per dead Marine

Hlokk
04-06-2006, 13:10
The hellgun isn't quite as bad as people think. Funnily enough, point per point a Stormtrooper with a hellgun is just as efficient at killing Marines as Marines are.

1/(1/3)/(1/3)/(2/3)=13.5 Stormtroopers to kill a Marine. 135 points per dead Marine

1/(1/3)/(1/2)/(2/3)=9 Marines to kill a Marine. 135 points per dead Marine
Mate, those numbers mean precisely nothing because they dont take into acount situational variables like deployment, army composition or a big freaking pie plate landing on the squad.

Anyway, what if helguns were rending? that might work.

Ironhand
04-06-2006, 14:04
You are kidding about the rending, right?:wtf:

Hlokk
04-06-2006, 14:11
You are kidding about the rending, right?:wtf:
Of course I am, maybe a :p would have helped. :p

The only way I can see around hellguns being any less cack than they are now is either to make them S4 AP- or give storm troopers the sharpshooters special rule.

Noserenda
04-06-2006, 14:21
Playing with a Grenadiers based army ive personally got no beef with the hellgun, after all it may not even cost more points given that for 4 points a model Stormtroopers get BS, SV and Grenades as well...

As for assault, meh, id rather have my BS 4 Troops shooting TBH, and firing their plasma guns.

The other key issue about S4 is that you can now also hurt light (AV 10)vehicles, which makes S4 quite a jump from S3.

Hlokk
04-06-2006, 14:43
Well then, what about the auxilliary grenade launchers rule from the IA4. Not a specific solution Per Se, bu gives them a decent dual role.

Helicon_One
04-06-2006, 14:52
Hellgun used to BE a bolter, When it was introduced in Ed2 it was a S4 lasgun (and in Necromunda it even has the same Ammo roll).

Strictly speaking, that was the 'hotshot-lasgun', not the hellgun. Most people assume that its the same gun, but I wouldn't mind seeing hotshots reintroduced seperately.

Also, Stormies should have a LMG-type special weapon option

Tim

Smoking Frog
04-06-2006, 15:01
You are kidding about the rending, right?:wtf:

Why has no one thought of this before! RENDING LASGUNS!!!

I still abide by the idea that hellguns are fine the way they are, at the most Assault 2 would fit the bill IMHO.

Kriegsherr
04-06-2006, 22:16
Rending Lasguns!!! And one day later there would be ten times as much IG players around :D

I also vote for assault guns....

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-06-2006, 22:28
Personally, I'm terrified of Storm Troopers.

That 4+ armour is horrifically awkward to deal with. My small arms fire is better off chewing through his lighter platoons, and my heavy weapons are typically geared toward mashing his tanks. By the time I have run out of prime targets for either, the Storm Troopers have done their damage! Cade uses 2 squads mounted in Chimeras as flank collapsers, and my god it works! Don't forget they can also carry Meltabombs. At least, I think they can. I'm pretty sure they can. But I might be wrong!

Damien 1427
04-06-2006, 22:30
Yes, yes they can. Nasty.

Personally, I think Assault 2/Rending on 'em would be hilarious. :p

AgentZero
04-06-2006, 22:34
Assault 2 would be fitting I guess.;)

You do not want Storm Troopers going into H2H.
Fire and maneuver maybe, fire and charge, no.

Ironhand
04-06-2006, 22:34
If you think Assault 2/Rending is that funny, I'll check back with you when the new Eldar Codex is released and the Warp Spider Webspinners are upgraded to Assault 2/Rending. :D

That's a serious rumor BTW, not a joke. Check the Eldar rumor thread.

Chem-Dog
04-06-2006, 22:41
Strictly speaking, that was the 'hotshot-lasgun', not the hellgun. Most people assume that its the same gun, but I wouldn't mind seeing hotshots reintroduced seperately.

Of course, you are right, but the Hotshot-Lasgun became the Hellgun.

I don't think 40K is small detail enough to cater for things like a Hotshot pack these days, +1S would be nice, perhaps with Gets Hot thrown in for good measure?

Damien 1427
04-06-2006, 22:43
If you think Assault 2/Rending is that funny, I'll check back with you when the new Eldar Codex is released and the Warp Spider Webspinners are upgraded to Assault 2/Rending. :D

Nah, as I expect such weapons from an advanced, ancient race. Chaos Lords getting shot up by Glory Boys would have me piddling myself with laughter.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
04-06-2006, 23:30
You do not want Storm Troopers going into H2H.

My Storm Troopers have served me well many times by charging into CC, the rest of the time they are fighting creatures that hellguns are useless against anyway. And sometiems it better to spend the game tying up a better shooting unit rather than getting oblitered by the entire enemy army, which is a a fairly common fate for such aggressive units as storm troopers. I would like my hellguns to complement the pistol and assault weapon of the sergeant and special weapon troopers (3 of the 4 options are assault weapons).

Get a clue before you make statements with such absolute finality.

Chaos and Evil
04-06-2006, 23:38
That point-for point comparison is interesting... because Storm Troopers have more wounds than Marines... :)

pwrgmrguard
04-06-2006, 23:52
how? im still under the impression 1=1. if that's out dated please tell me.

tuebor
05-06-2006, 00:17
Mate, those numbers mean precisely nothing because they dont take into acount situational variables like deployment, army composition or a big freaking pie plate landing on the squad.

Actually, what those numbers mean is that x points of hellgun wielding Stormtroopers are just as good as killing Marines as x points of bolter wielding Marines.

Of course these numbers don't take into account situational variables, but they do allow you to have an estimation of what your units can reasonably achieve. Such as, if you know that an 8 man Stormtrooper squad with 2 plasma guns and a Vet Sarge with a plasma pistol should kill about 4 MEQ's on average when rapid firing, that may help you in deciding exactly what course of action to take. Of course, these numbers don't happen all of the time, sometimes they kill less, sometimes more, but over the course of many games, they'll kill about that amount.


how? im still under the impression 1=1. if that's out dated please tell me.

What he means is that 150 points of Stormtroopers will have (please not that I'm not trying to claim that Stormtroopers can have 15 man squads) 15 wounds, while 150 points of Marines will have 10 wounds. Of course, they'd need those extra wounds as Marines are exactly twice as efficient at killing Stormtroopers as Stormtroopers are at killing Marines.

Green Shine e Lemon
06-06-2006, 01:17
I think storm troopers should have there regular guns but I think you should be able to make there hellguns have one grenade round attached to the hellgun for 2 points.

Phunting
06-06-2006, 01:21
I think storm troopers should have there regular guns but I think you should be able to make there hellguns have one grenade round attached to the hellgun for 2 points.What do you mean by 'grenade round'?

jimmysnz
06-06-2006, 03:14
Hell Guns are not the only reason why storm troopers cost more. They have both two types of grenades as standard along with targeters, which if used right can be a right pain for your opponent.

Also, AP5 will get you through almost all standard armors. The only major problem would be MEQs where you would be not going one on one with hell guns anyway.

My younger brother has guard and every battle he plays his strom troopers kill 2 - 3 times their points. In one game they killed 5 Grey Knight Terms, in another a Necron lord. It all comes down to how you use them.

Jimmy

cailus
06-06-2006, 03:35
Stormtroopers main advantage IMO is better BS and better Save. And these guys can be a pain in the ass in combat because of their save.

These guys can actually bog down squads of Marines due to their decent save.

Asmodia
06-06-2006, 10:36
I find Stormtroopers to be great tar pits for the enemy. I always keep my mobile (either deepstriking or Chimeras) and give them at least 1 meltagun, generally 2.

In one battle during 3rd edition I deepstruck in behind a chaos Predator, destroyed it with Melta fire, then fell back to cover before he could munster some decent fire against them. They were able to hold out the entire game, soaking up fire, which combined with the sentinal units to the front in close combat meant that he never was able to pick one element of my force and anihalate it.

I think the hellgun is about right, its just another sympton of the MEQ-forever-and-everywhere problem.

Eduard
06-06-2006, 11:19
MEq? meaning? I can't make a half decent army name of it.

Sanjuro
06-06-2006, 11:30
Marine Equivalent, I think.

Bookwrak
06-06-2006, 11:34
Marine Equivalent. Means you're general army with T4 and a 3+ save, so SM, CSM, Necrons, SoB sorta...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-06-2006, 13:02
And if your worried about them being caught up in Combat, I find a unit of Ogryns accompanying them puts most people off!

r(2)Truth
06-06-2006, 14:48
If they had str 4 guns, even with no AP, they are still like bolters against the MEqs. The BS4 combined with plasma guns is enough, thank you, and the armor is great. Otherwise you will have the guardsmen version of the SoBs, that one can take en-mass, with mini-boltguns. That can be good or bad depending on who is looking at it.

jahorin
06-06-2006, 15:10
people seem to think that targeters is a good thing. i do you use it exactly? i've never find it usefull.

Prince of Moskova
06-06-2006, 15:50
people seem to think that targeters is a good thing. i do you use it exactly? i've never find it usefull.

Having a targeter allows you to measure range prior to shooting.

As stated before, I think that GW will not allow the Guard to have a basic S4 weapon available to them. I like the Stormtroopers just like they are.