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Malchek
04-06-2006, 01:20
Hi everyone,

I've designed and collected two armies for LOTR - Isengard Uruks and Rohan.

None of my mates have full armies yet so we've been using both of mine and swapping sides.

The thing is my Uruk army always wipes the board with my Rohan army - in fact no-one has ever beaten it (no matter who is playing it)

I'm figuring my Rohan list is broke so can you help me figure out how to break through that Uruk toughness!?

The evil unbeatable force =

1 x lurtz

1 x uruk captain

1 x orc captain

1 x orc banner

14 x uruks - shields

8 x uruks pikes

6 x uruks crossbows

8 x orcs spears

3 x orcs - shields

2 x uruk beserkers

LOTR good force =

1 x Eomer - mounted

1 x captain of rohan

1 x rider - banner

17 x riders of rohan

1 x warrior of rohan - banner

6 x warriors of rohan - shields

6 x warriors of rohan - shields - throwing spears

3 x rohan royal guard - throwing spears

6 x warriors of rohan - bows

The uruks are obviously designed to be in a phalanx formation - 8 uruks - sheilds - 8 ors - spears - 8 uruks pikes - this has proven impossible to break no matter what any of us try. Also the large amount of might on Evil side means they often take priority with heroic moves. As I said before we just can't beat em.

With the Rohan force - the bowmen consistently prove ineffective against uruks, throwing spears hardly ever get a kill and infantry are too few to outnumber anyone (they often run out of might quickly as well) of course the riders and Eomer are the stars of the show but as soon as they come up against charging uruks and/or the phalanx - they die.

Help!!!!

What should I change to defeat the uruks (or at least stand a better chance of beating them?)

My thoughts were to lose all bowmen and throwing spears (save rohan royal guard - fluff) get rid of the mounted banner but keep the rider and bring in five army of the dead men - they would certainly cut through the uruks wouldn't they??? But would this remain acceptable fluff wise (for composition)

What do u think and do you have any suggestions as I would have liked to have got another captain on foot in there........?

Thanks in advance ;)

Long_Fang
04-06-2006, 05:50
Well its impossible to say exactly WHY this army is unbeatable. On paper it looks just like any other army.

First, do you just play pitched battle? Some armies are just tough to break in a head-to-head fight. Your Rohan force is quicker, I am sure some missions they would have the advantage.

Second, your Uruk-Hai force is so powerful because they can bring so many attacks to bear. To make matters crappier for your poor Rohan force the big cavalry bases make it hard to bring attacks into a fight. Again, in a head on fight, the above Evil force has an advantage.

Anyway, what I would try with the good force is as follows:
Split the Uruk-hai force up. Bait them with some expensive units left out on their own, a hero and some horses (oppps ;) ). If he falls for the bait and splits up his force you will use your speed to bring your entire force on one part of his army, then come around and attack the second.

I am assuming you are ONLY playing Pitched Battle scenerios by the way.

P.S. Why not include the Shield Maiden?? She's a great deal...

Pertinax
04-06-2006, 07:50
I can't help but feel that the Uruk army will suffer against a sustained fire fight. The dice won't be easy to roll, but the good player will slowly wittle down the uruks.

Why not include more characters into the Rohan army. Their tactics are best when they get the charge, hit, and are able to move out again before the priority catches them. And more might means you can do that.

As Mr. Long-fang says, missions!

Gondorian
04-06-2006, 12:16
Well, I strongly recommend the all mounted force in pitch battle, coz I'm biased and because you'll run rings around the phalanx.
Use your archers agressively to take out the crossbows and/or defense 6 Uruk-Hai.
Split your force into two and form up on either side of the phalanx. They tend to have the best stuff facing one way so if he orientates his block to face one part of your force, you send that force running and hit the rear of the phalanx with your other force.
All this gets harder as the terrain goes up, cavalry need open ground to hit and run.

With your current force you cannot get your infantry to hit them head on as the Rohan Shield wall won't hold out for long in the face of a phalanx. If you get into difficult terrain you can back off while hurling spears with no chance of them catching you. Also good if you can get your infantry behind a wall with your cavalry sweeping around the flanks.
The only way I have defeated the phalanx with rohan is to engage it on multiple fronts and to never get bogged down with my cavalry.

Mars
04-06-2006, 13:53
Rohan vs Isengard is tricky. The same can be said for Minas Tirith vs Isengard too, and a friend of mine proved me wrong on that account (Citadel and Foutain Guard with shields).

In an open fight Rohirrim don't stand a chance, sure enough: pikes, spears, D6, F4, banner, more men in a smaller frontage... it's just plain suicide (which also applies to White/Wild Wargs, but even worse).

But there are tricks around it, sure enough:

- Eomer and Theoden: if he brings Saruman and Grima this can backfire, but against most other things they give you plenty of Might, F5 and the cavalry bonusses, which is enough most of the time.

- Eowyn: the same, but she's weaker, so it's quite a dilema to choose between her and a regular Captain.

- plenty of Heroes: I don't like playing it this way, but the idea is to use your speed and hitting power over numbers. By taking a few powerful heroes you can take on the Uruks a small number at a time. You can use the rest of your cavalry to threaten the rest, if they try to counter-attack. But do not charge/get charged.

- This is the general idea: charge him part a time, but keep most of your force in reserve, to threaten him if he tries to move against you. Do not fight fair, that's for Dol Amrod, Rohirrim were designed for hit and run attacks.

- bowmen: on foot, plenty of them. Isengard usually doesn't have much ranged fire, and you can just sit back and blast him away, forcing him to move, which will expose him to an attack.

- go for the soft bits: Uruks with shields are though, and they'll be supported by spears, pikes and banners. Both supporting models are a lot easier to kill, and also make throwing spears worth it. If he's smart he'll use terrain to cover his weak spots.

- use terrain: this will often make or break you battle. If you have the most ranged fire, you'll be able to force him to move in a certain way. Try to concider this in advance, drawing him into the open. In dense terrain they'll just put their Heroes+spears+pikes+banner in the front and chop you to bits.

- use your mobility: take the inititative, avoid his Heroes; Aragorn with Anduril is nigh unbeatable, but as long as he's not in combat he's just a 250+ point sink. Charge were his best troops aren't, as this will force him to atleast spread his line thinly, giving you a fighting chance.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Malchek
05-06-2006, 00:26
Hi thanks for your feedback everyone.

Firstly - yes we usually play pitched battles.

In previous games I've tried taking out the uruk crossbowmen and then pepper the phalanx with archers but Rohan archers (as I'm sure you know) couldn't kill a lame cow let alone a shield bearing uruk.

In my last game I took out one enemy through archery - an orc!?

So far from taking more Rohan archers - I was going to drop them all!

My thoughts are to either replace them with elves who may have more shooting success - or army of the dead who can cleave a path into the phalanx and fix it in place with the rest of my infantry whilst the cav assault the flanks.......?

I like to think I'm a thoughtful player and I'd swear blind I've tried every tactic I can think of but even when it looks like I'm getting the upper hand - those uruks start churning through my troops.

So do you think elven archers or army of the dead would do the trick.......?

I'll have 75pts to spare if I get rid of the mounted banner and the archers.

I'd agree I need another character - a captain on foot really as that is where I tend to suffer in running out of might ;) but how do I fit them in as on their own they're not going to swing the odds in my favour.....?

I've personally plumped initially for 5 army of the dead to see if they'll work but I'm open to persuasion ;)

Thanks again

Malchek ;)

Malchek
05-06-2006, 00:33
Well its impossible to say exactly WHY this army is unbeatable. On paper it looks just like any other army.

First, do you just play pitched battle? Some armies are just tough to break in a head-to-head fight. Your Rohan force is quicker, I am sure some missions they would have the advantage.

Second, your Uruk-Hai force is so powerful because they can bring so many attacks to bear. To make matters crappier for your poor Rohan force the big cavalry bases make it hard to bring attacks into a fight. Again, in a head on fight, the above Evil force has an advantage.

Anyway, what I would try with the good force is as follows:
Split the Uruk-hai force up. Bait them with some expensive units left out on their own, a hero and some horses (oppps ;) ). If he falls for the bait and splits up his force you will use your speed to bring your entire force on one part of his army, then come around and attack the second.

I am assuming you are ONLY playing Pitched Battle scenerios by the way.

P.S. Why not include the Shield Maiden?? She's a great deal...

Hi long fang,

much appreciated thoughts - we quite often manage to split the isengard phalanx - into three or four blocks - unfortunately as long as they stay in formation even these smaller sections are really tough to break - I failed with my captain on foot, 3 rohan royal guard, around 8 or 9 warriors on foot and 2 cav to break a block of 3x3!? (9 in total)

god forbid if the phalanx gets a charge on you - u can kiss ur troops goodbye there and then!

Maybe its just us and the way we're playing them!? ;)

Malchek
05-06-2006, 00:42
Well, I strongly recommend the all mounted force in pitch battle, coz I'm biased and because you'll run rings around the phalanx.
Use your archers agressively to take out the crossbows and/or defense 6 Uruk-Hai.
Split your force into two and form up on either side of the phalanx. They tend to have the best stuff facing one way so if he orientates his block to face one part of your force, you send that force running and hit the rear of the phalanx with your other force.
All this gets harder as the terrain goes up, cavalry need open ground to hit and run.

With your current force you cannot get your infantry to hit them head on as the Rohan Shield wall won't hold out for long in the face of a phalanx. If you get into difficult terrain you can back off while hurling spears with no chance of them catching you. Also good if you can get your infantry behind a wall with your cavalry sweeping around the flanks.
The only way I have defeated the phalanx with rohan is to engage it on multiple fronts and to never get bogged down with my cavalry.

Thanks - good advice makes sense to me too - especially if we were'nt playing tournament rules whereas only the models with bows count as having them!?

I'll try this out with proxy models (as I'm loathe to waste all the infantry I've bought!) But maybe this is the solution - hitting the soft rear or sides of the phalanx can bear fruit (not alot mind u!) so maybe with more mounted archers I can get round behind them and fire away.

Again thanks - sounds like a very good plan ;) (if I can bear to say goodbye to my lovely royal guard - i love those minis ;)

Gondorian
05-06-2006, 13:37
I'd suggest you keep some royal guard in the force as they will be your key troop for beating the phalanx.
By using the archers on Uruks with shields, you expose defense 5 Uruks which are easier to kill with spears or in combat.

Mars
05-06-2006, 13:58
Archers (Elf and Man alike) always have trouble against D6 Uruks.

Nevertheless, 12 Archers are 84 points, and will kill one Uruk per turn.

The Uruks will have little way of countering you (except for his crossbows, but they can't move and shoot, you can), and after 9 volleys they'll have earned back their points, and still give you another 12 bodies in close combat.

In my last game with Rohan against Isengard I just shot him with my mobile infantry, running rings around him. His crossbows never got a clean shot. In the end he was forced to split up his force in order to trap me, allowing me to charge and destory one part at a time. I only lost a few models in combat, and another few to hold up the other part, giving me an essential amount of extra time.

Edit: to do the math, you can get 8 for the same price as those 12 Rohan archers (which can be very interesting concidering the 33 % bow rule), but they hit as much (6 times per volley), but they're also more effective against D5 Uruks.

Also interesting are Wood Elves with no armour, bows and spears.

They're great shots, D3 or 4 makes little difference to an Uruk, and with spears they can support, fight at F5 or shield at F5. Very nice at 10 points, and if you have some woods on the table they're worth double their salt. And it's even fluffy!

Edit: to do the math, you get 8 for the same price as those 12 Rohan archers, although they'll hit about the same (which can be very interesting concidering the 33% bow rule). But they're even better against D5 Uruks.

Malchek
05-06-2006, 14:36
so r u suggesting elf archers or rohan archers........?

Mars
05-06-2006, 15:10
Elven archers if you got them.

Although mounted Rohan archers are pretty good too, because of the increased mobility. Crossbows are a joke to these guys.

It all depends on the terrain, and the enemy tactics.

If he really has a lot of firepower, you'll theoretically be better off with Rohan archers, as they loose less fire power per casuality.

If you have woods on the terrain, Elves are no discussion: it gives them cover from the enemy shooting, and if he tries to charge them you just run away and ambush him with your Riders.

I love my Elves, so for my next battle I'll probably take some to complement my Rohirrim. Not for powerplaying, but purely for fluff reasons.

Chaplin Davius
07-06-2006, 10:32
Drop the Rohan infantry, they're to slow and can't hold there own against the uruk infantry. Secondly when playing Rohan vs Isengard don't change untill you have killed a good number of pike men with your bows and when you do change, change from 4 directions at the same time the phalanx then can't support it's self and the rohan should win thougth having more attacks.

Later Days

Malchek
07-06-2006, 11:07
Hi all,

I've taken your comments on board and have come up with a new list for Rohan - tell me what you think..... ;)

1 x Eomer, shield, horse

1 x captain of Rohan - heavy armour shield

1 x warrior of rohan - banner

18 x riders of rohan (6 with bows)

12 x warriors of rohan - shields

3 x rohan royal guard - throwing spears

8 x wood elf warriors - elf bows

= 596 pts - 44 models 12 with bows

Do you think this should stand a better chance of defeating the uruk army...?

Thanks

Malchek ;)

Chaplin Davius
07-06-2006, 12:39
Give Eomer and the Captain throwing spears, i would have the banner on horseback so you can move him to were he is needed. Also i wouldn't have the elves, it's just personally i like to have a fixed force (i.e. all rohan or all dwarfs, etc), other than that i think it's a good list.

Later Days

primarch16
07-06-2006, 12:59
Solid force. I'm not happy about the rohan infantry, too small and too weak to fight uruk hai. Mount the banner bearer.

Gondorian
07-06-2006, 14:50
Mount the royal guard, you need your best troops mobile or they'll go splat when the phalanx hits them.

I'd also leave the elves at home but this is just my preference for mounted forces. Tactically they're viable. It's a decent force overall.

Malchek
08-06-2006, 00:13
Hi everyone - after much thought (and after looking at all the models i'd be disgarding - and thinking about shelling out even more money for minis!) I decided to revert back to a pure Rohan force...

so what do you think of this? Should it work?

Eomer - mounted shield

captain - heavy armour shield

1 x warrior - banner

11 x riders (6 with bows)

7 x riders - throwing spears

3 x royal guard - throwing spears

6 x warriors - shields

7 x warriors - throwing spears

8 x warriors - bows

Got a few more bows in there and maxed out on throwing spears so all the models are now wysiwyg

I'm not sure if its going to be any more or less effective than the old list as its not much changed but I'll give it a run out on Friday and let you all know what happened.

Any ideas/suggestions greatfully received - but bear in mind I'd rather work with what I've got cos I just can't stomach buying any more LOTR models (unless they're easterlings.... and I've got a chaos warhammer army to collect!? ;)

cheers ;)

Mars
08-06-2006, 07:41
Nice force: not designed for powerplaying, but a nice force none the less.

Be sure to play to it's strengths.

For one, you now have quite a bit of infantry, who aren't that fast but who can move better in terrain. Be sure to put them there, so they are shielded from those deadly crossbows, and it will slow the enemy down.

DO NOT fight fair, you'll lose. Avoid confrontation, run rings around him, use terrain so he can't charge you after you've thrown your throwing spears.

Force him to split up his army. If he does that it'll work in your adavantage since you have more mobility. If you group your infantry he'll go straight at it and ignore your cavalry, while you'll be able to do little about it.
One way to avoid this is to spread your boys across the entire table: that way he either spreads his troops as well, allowing you to attack them in parts, or he keeps them together, and than you just get to shoot more.

I'll actually be facing Isengard with my Rohirrim myself on friday, so remember you won't be alone out there :rolleyes:.

One more thing, I seriously suggest you give the banner to a rider, it'll be much more effective that way, and harder to take out.

Gondorian
08-06-2006, 12:04
One point to remember is to never get your cavalry locked up in combat.
Go for a one turn charge, do some damage and then run away. Taunt your opponent with them, try and use them to lure him to where you want to fight.

Chaplin Davius
08-06-2006, 23:41
One point to remember is to never get your cavalry locked up in combat.
Go for a one turn charge, do some damage and then run away. Taunt your opponent with them, try and use them to lure him to where you want to fight.

This is what your might is for a good idea could be to split your cav into two forces one lead by Eomer the other by the captain.

I really like the new list. Although i know i have said this time and again on the thread but give Eomer and the captain throwing spears. If your are thinking about wysiwyg then my captain is a rohan royal guard painted white and red (like all my characters) while my normal royal guard are painted green and brown like the rest of my men, this way you can still have a throwing spear on the models. Or just have one in the ground in front of them.

Later Days

The Judge
09-06-2006, 11:43
Might and throwing spears, plus the speed of the horses, are the three most important things in winning (the way I do, anyway) with Rohan.

Warriors on foot with shields do not fit into this.

I would recommend purely riders with throwing spears, Captains or Eomer (3 might is good) and if you can, some double-hard Royal Guard.

Mars
11-06-2006, 15:59
Here's a question: how many banner bearers to use in a Rohan force.

I converted some Riders to banner bearers, but I was wondering if I should make some more.

The way I see it, with a pure cavalry army you'll either be fighting a small poriton of the enemy army, or you'll lack the space to use all your models, so concentration of force is the message.

Is Rohan a hero-heavy army? Riders are cool if you can catch light infantry (Orcs, Haradrim) in the open, but they strugle against heavier stuff like Uruks and Eeasterlings in formation.

Heroes with their higher Fight and Strength are perfect against these kind of troops, but because of the lack of space and spears, I figure you need all the banners you can get to help them, and your Royal Guards.

Plus priority is of utmost importance to a cavalry army, especially the Rohirrim whom are more fragile and designed for hit-and-run than say Swann Knights or the close-combat orientated Knight of Minas Tirith and Warg Riders. Which means you really need all the might you can get.

Gondorian
11-06-2006, 17:52
You need a fair few heroes, a minimum of three captains in 600pts I'd say.
I'd also take atleast one banner but it all depends on what the rest of the army is.

Malchek
24-06-2006, 02:29
Hi everyone,

sorry i havent got back to you before but ive been very busy and havent managed to get a game in till now!

I tried the new army list and it was very interesting. Rohan still lost but they fared better than before and the archers actually killed a couple of guys!?

I feel this army is still 1 character (struggling for might in later turns) short but god knows where i could cut the points from!

One thing that worked really well were the throwing spears - like the bows - n large numbers they star performing! The only problem was that to get in range to throw - ur in charging distance....... however i tries to set up attacksd where i could chuck my javelins then run - they kept being charged afterwards. This had the happy effect of breaking the uruk phalanx but they still managed to clobber me in close combat once my cav got bogged down.

So any thoughts on how i can improve my tactics to make my throwing speard more effective.......?

(I was wondering - you can charge and throw a javelin - can u throw a javelin then flee.......?)

Thanks

Malchek ;)

Gondorian
24-06-2006, 14:04
If you are still using infantry, get them into difficult terrain. You'll be able to back off while throwing spears for quite a few turns.

Try to eliminate enemy heroes with might points with archery. If you can guarentee that one part of his force will be unable to use a heroic action next turn, you can charge that part secure in the knowledge that you'll be able to run away.

Mars
25-06-2006, 17:01
Btw, I tried Eowyn last friday. Thought she had a 2 wounds and 2 attacks until we were actually playing.

Her F5 is nice, but useless since I had a Wood Elf/Rohan force.

I figure I'm better off with another Captain: for 20 points extra you get a much thougher character (D7, 2 wounds), who's also got that essential S4 (against Uruks, Easterlings). Or better yet, I've gotta get a Theoden model (although under the new rules, his lack of Will can be a problem, but than again a Captain only has a single point too).

Gondorian
25-06-2006, 22:42
Does anyone else find Theoden to be over priced for what he can do?

Neknoh
26-06-2006, 10:20
I'd say get your Royal Guard on horseback, drop the Warriors on foot (keep the bowmen) and get yourself Gamling on horse with the Rohan Royal Standard, he will supply you with an eternal supply of Might from the Banner as well as himself having 2 might to boot.

I think that he might be the one hero you are looking for, I am suprised noone has suggested him yet.

Also, when using Throwingspears, do NOT use them if you have Priority, the key here is that you allow your enemy to move first, then you go into throwing distance, throw your spears, and the next round, you either use a Heroic Move or your own Priority to get the Riders out of the dangerous situation, sure, this will only allow you to throw your spears every second round at best, but still, this can destroy the D4 and 5 Uruks/Orcs in the phalanx.

Malchek
10-07-2006, 11:24
Neknoh - you're a genius I'll look into it but it sounds good to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This isn't the first time you've saved me is it...? Didn't u help me out with my WHFB chaos army....?

Cheers ;)

Neknoh
13-07-2006, 09:14
If you had a Chaos Army, it is highly likely that I did help you.

Anywway, let us know if it works.