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View Full Version : Is this cheesey or what?



Icewalker
04-06-2006, 21:42
Me and my stepbro play 500 point quik games as I like to call them (it does not follow any force organization chart so we don't use HQs very often). This weekend, we had two. I was using my Dark REaper force. Last night I annhilated his Blood Angels without breaking a sweat AND he had a land raider. Today it was incredibly close and he beat me and was still using a land raider.

last eve it was like so: he had a land raider, 5 termies, 1 death co and 3 scouts. today this afternoon he placed upon the field 15 marines, two squads, one of five and one of ten, one with a missile launcher and another with a lascannon and ended up with 3 deathco and lost a few from his marines.

i had thusly placed upon the field: a wraithlord (missile launcher), 2x3 dark reapers (two shot missile launchers included) and then a trio of rangers. the same went for this afternoon

I called him a power gamer cause he used a land raider in a five hundred point game and even yesterday when i beat the perverbial crap out of him, i thought he was powergaming. Am I justified in this thinking?

Brotherdraagor
04-06-2006, 21:48
Until you play by the proper rules with a proper force organisation chart, the concept of power gaming shouldn't even come into it. A Landraider is nasty in 500 pts yes (and when using proper FOC almost impossible to do), but then again, so is a Wraithlord. Generally though, I'll agree with you on the view that he was power gaming. Although how big was the board? If it was small enough for a standard 500 pt affair then your Wraithlord should have smashed throguh his force no problem, now that's power gaming.

AgentZero
04-06-2006, 22:39
Me and my stepbro play 500 point quik games.............blah blah blah

Simple solutions:
Set up limits for the games.
Use mutable laws, if he takes a LR/LRC you get to bump your points alotment up.Same goes for him if you bring a WLord.
Do something. Set some house rules. Be even and fair.

Or start using a 6x4 table for the 500 point games.

purerockfury
04-06-2006, 23:19
nothing is cheesey. especially in a game with no rules for foc. i would say do as what people posted above. make limits.

we start a lot of our leagues with 500pts. the base rules are:

must have-
1 hq- no more than 2 wounds and no 2+ saves.
2 troops
no vehicle can be used with more than 30 or 33 (sorry i forget the exact number) armour value. you add up the front and side armour (the other thing i keep forgetting) value of the vehicle to determine this.

than it's just up to your imagination.

in my iw army i have a slightly kitted out chaos lord. 2 troops of 8 men with rocket launchers, a rhino with havoc launcher and the piece de resistance a basilisk.


just change the rules if you think your bro is playing unfair.

also you should be fair yourself. 2 units of dark reapers and a wraithlord. if i used the word cheesey i would say you were the one being cheesey. hell you used the list twice.

what i think happened here is that he beat you and you didn't like it. you were beating the pulp out of him and he found a way to get back at you. and you like a child acted accordingly by posting your problem here. and no you are not justified in this thinking. with no rules nothing can be cheesey or wrong. not even your "cheesed" out force for 500pts.

so i say stop acting like you are superior to your brother and make limits in foc and than play. i bet you will find your not as good as you think you are.

i mean a toughness 8 model in a 500pt game. and marine killing rocket launchers. and you barely beat him. wow.... fair is fair i think he should post on here about how "cheesey" you are. and that in fact you are more of a power gamer than he is. it sounds to me that your bro made a force to counter-act yours.

and the game is supposed to be fun for all those playing. if only you are having fun cause you are annihalating him than maybe he's not having as much fun.

Skyth
04-06-2006, 23:46
Typical Hypocritical whine about cheese.

mattjgilbert
04-06-2006, 23:52
I'd suggest using the combat patrol rules for force selection and playing 500 or 750 point games. The games are entertaining and make you think about what to take but preclude the selection of the more powerful units and combos in the game. Having a set of rules you are both using to make army selections means neither of you can be called out for "cheese".

Make sure you have enough terrain and play on at least a 4x4 board.

Smoking Frog
05-06-2006, 00:22
The biggest mistake anyone would make, first of all, is to think a Wraithlord is invulnerable to anything. The Land Raider's two twin-linked lascannons can and will make short work of a wraithlord in two turns. That is not enough time to use the missile launcher or to get into close combat to pop that Land Raider.

Sorry mate, and sorry to all who think otherwise, but a wraithlord isn't a very good choice. I have never used one since the first time, simply because they are too slow, have one heavy weapon, and anyone with a normal amount of anti-tank weaponry will destroy it in two turns or one.

My first piece of advice is scrap the wraithlord for something more useful. If you want to kill from a distance, more reapers and rangers, maybe even some guardians with a heavy weapon, if you want close combat or range, any of the CC aspects or Fire Dragons would suit the bill.

My second piece of advice is for you to consider changing the rules. Use force organisation charts to, at the very least, give claims of legitimacy for cheese. Play combat patrol games if you want a small and quick game, otherwise either invent your own scenarios with its own limitations (you can't have an anything goes attitude, it simply leads to the collapse of all that is fun and good), or follow the guidelines in the rulebook.

Thirdly, keep in mind that it isn't fair to call anyone cheesy simply because of the army or choices they take. Learn to beat them. Then beat them around like a little bastard. I get the impression that you wish to retain some supremacy over your brother. Stop that and grow out of it, or stop complaining if you set no boundaries, no rules of engagement. He's obviously wisened up to your army and has tried his best to beat it. He is, basically, mirroring what you would have done to him.

My last point is simply that by calling his army cheesy, you instigate further an endless cycle. One where on one hand, there are those who will call anything that can beat them "cheesy", and on the other are those who wish to play within the boundaries of the rules, even if that makes a list "over the top". The last thing that you, especially as an Eldar player, should do is encourage such thoughts to exist, because you should know how stupid this never-ending cycle has become, and instead adopt the ideal of having fun for what you believe is to be fun, and find others who agree with you on what is fun.

Also, Fire Dragons pop Land Raiders like a toaster to the window.

Icewalker
05-06-2006, 02:35
Also, Fire Dragons pop Land Raiders like a toaster to the window.
Sadly for my part, the Reapers took up about four hundred points and I knew that they would get their asses handed off to them by Blood Angels.

On note of special rules, he's one of the most inflexible people I've ever met. He probably won't agree to it. Oh yeah, he despises combat patrols and likes massive meat grinders where tactics are overrun by brute force. That is his style.

Smoking Frog
05-06-2006, 03:25
Sadly for my part, the Reapers took up about four hundred points and I knew that they would get their asses handed off to them by Blood Angels.

On note of special rules, he's one of the most inflexible people I've ever met. He probably won't agree to it. Oh yeah, he despises combat patrols and likes massive meat grinders where tactics are overrun by brute force. That is his style.

If that is the case, then I understand why you take so many reapers, and a wraithlord to provide some form of stability. All I can suggest is to get him to grow out of meat grinders. It seems like all he wants to do is sit back and shoot, and I've garnered that you have to outgun him good.

Stick a Brightlance on that wraithlord boy!

Prince of Moskova
05-06-2006, 23:06
On note of special rules, he's one of the most inflexible people I've ever met. He probably won't agree to it. Oh yeah, he despises combat patrols and likes massive meat grinders where tactics are overrun by brute force. That is his style.

Sounds like you'll have a hard time steering him to some "good" games. By using the force compositions in the rules and playing to point values, he'll still have some "meatgrinder" games.

Sanguinius1
05-06-2006, 23:07
Hi,

Wraithlord w/ bright lance vs landraider = wraithlord will win more and costs half 100 pts less.

If you guys are playing 500 pts, how can he have 1 LR and 5 termies and a dc? That is more like 700 pts. (I know and i play BA).

Anyways, 8 guardians w/ bright lance (and comes w/ 2 guardians) + warlock w/ conceal is and a witch blade + shuriken pistol = 161 pts. Back that up w/ 1 5-man dark reaper squads and 1 wraithlord w/ bright lance and you should eat his army in 500 pts. But w/ that said and as everyone already pointed out, if there are no restrictions on the game you could take anything you want really and call nothing cheesy. If your opponent is not up for change then you can choose not to play him or continue to play him and make an army that you yourself would consider cheesy ie. 3 wraithlords.

Sang

paddyalexander
05-06-2006, 23:49
For balanced games at this level use Combat Patrol rules but with the points limit expanded to 500 points. No WL, no LR, No 2+ saves. For small games this makes for fairer play.

paddyalexander
05-06-2006, 23:51
Or just use the Standard FOC. At 500 points you should have plenty to allow for HQ, 2 x Troops and some other interesting selections.