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Hartog
05-06-2006, 11:47
my friend plays dark elder and I was just wondering if they were any good at all or if it was a waste ,he has about fifty troops and a dark elder lord of them but got them cheap second hand, and every one goes for him with armys like space marines, necrons and chaos and all he does is sit there with his splinter cannons behind cover and shoot i was just wondering if you guys and girls had any tactics he could use against us with his guys. And your popinion on what he should buy next.

Thanks in advance.:D

Sakura
05-06-2006, 11:59
They are very competitive.
except they have problems.

the only competitive dark eldar armies take advantage 2 either an army full of wyches in transports and dark lances which you can get in large numbers for cheap.

lots of other unit options are almost pointless or only work in the perfect circumstances, which makes them pretty pointless.

Its fun to make a nasty pair of dracons with incubi and lots of troops without darklances and syberites with nasty agonisers.

but the truth is, is that you dont need any of it.
just lots of dark lances and wyhces...

its cheesey as hell and really quite pathetic.
thats why I dont like dark eldar, I have an army of all my favourtie models that just simply cant do anything, and a codex that can only take advantage of cheese is in need of balancing.

I also dont believe in this whole "fast" thing. theyre fast for sure but no faster than a bunch or rhinos or wave serpents, however they can assalt from the transports which is MIGHTY useful when using wyhces.

Its all about dark lancing the hell out of everything.

Despoiler
05-06-2006, 12:28
sounds like he has good base of troops.
maybe he could get a raider or two for the units.
a unit of wyches with a raider is a must.
maybe a ravenger with dark lances (if they can carry them - haven't used them in ages)

as Sakura said they are hard to play without becoming cheesy. its not the army just the old codex thats the problem.

Sakura
05-06-2006, 12:34
ravengers like everyone else can have dark lances *rolls eyes*

Bregalad
05-06-2006, 13:22
Have a look at the following thread in this forum:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37296
The general Dark Eldar Tactica is here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29517&highlight=dark+eldar
There will certainly be others, please use the search.

Summary: Dark Eldar are competitive and very strong, but only when played by a very experienced player who knows how to deal with their low armour, mobility and cc abilities. Otherwise they can be shot quite easily.

IG88
05-06-2006, 16:45
One of the most competitive lists out there is the Dark Eldar shooty Dark Lance Army of Doom. It's seriously so degenerate and powerful that it reduces grown men to tears (or worse). However, I strongly advise your friend against playing the Dark Lance Army of Doom unless they want to be branded as a "cheeselord" for the rest of their gaming career, but if they're looking for something quick and competitive to slap together for a tournament with a particularly appetizing prize, then go for it. Actually, unlike other armies "of Doom" that there are, the Dark Eldar one actually takes some finesse and skill to use.

Other than cheesy indulgence (which, if you think about, thoroughly encapsulates the Dark Eldar), the DE are a pretty cool army. However, they are a finesse army that requires a keen knowledge of movement and target acquisition in order to come together, opposed to a blunt ramming instrument like, say, Chaos or Necrons. They'll pay off in the end; just make sure your friend doesn't get discouraged initially. They're not really an instant-gratification army.

Sakura
06-06-2006, 12:46
I think this is about all that can be contributed to dark eldar... cheese it or die.

Smoking Frog
06-06-2006, 15:15
To answer your question. Dark Eldar can be very competitive. You don't have many options though.

I'm currently trying out a foot slogging DE force, to represent a gang raiders force. I'll see how that works out sooner or later. It's looking difficult though.

scavenseer
06-06-2006, 15:23
Buy a Talos, you need a Talos!!

HeraldoftheGods
06-06-2006, 15:26
Dark Eldar can be incredibly competative. Unfortunatly they do this at the expense of over half the units in the army. In fact, they've probably got a worse ratio of good to bad units in their army than the Craftworld Eldar have.

The only reason this doesn't get complained about is because of the bizzare idea that you've got to be an uber-general to play them (which you don't), thus they don't get played much. Plus anybody that does play DE can claim the victory was all down to their tactical genious and every one nods their heads solemly as though they've been taught a great lesson - unlike Craftworld Eldar, who claim that their victories are ALL down to tactical genious, and everybody else just laughs at them :evilgrin:. (joke from another thread - don't take it too seriously)

AmKhaibitu
06-06-2006, 16:14
Buy a Talos, you need a Talos!!

That reminds me, I should start reconditioning my traded for kabal with the talos, strip the sucker and then repaint it. If only I had the 2nd part of the sting, but I'll figure out something useful for it.

I already have a cult, so I should work on dark lancing it up just for fun, and maybe do some hæmonculi sculpts more in line with what I envision the bondage pirates to be.

damz451
06-06-2006, 16:26
sakura seems to despise dark eldar a lot and has obviously only played that one army with dark lances.

My army has a good mix of units, archon with incubi will tear through enemy hq and assualt squads (i guess thats cheesy to sakura since they get a unit that is good :|). 2 squads of wyches and a warp beast unit, wyches in raiders to get into cc quickly, if thats cheesey then should i walk them out in the open??!. i have two sniper squads, which is usually far less than the devestators/heavy weapon platoons that i usually face, a bunch of reavers with blasters for tank busting and cc and a pair of ravagers armed only with disintagrators (HEAR THAT NO DARK LANCES!!! and a talos which works great against horde armies (i felt sorry for the death company that charged it MUAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA)

I have had huge success with this army taking out i.g, sm's and necrons fairly easily. I have yet to see this dark lance army of doom and i cant really imagine it being useful since a lot of weapons can out range dark lances.

The units that get rarely used are helions that are pretty much just s4 5+ save jump pack unit with only 1 cc weapon and costs more than a space marine which is dam pointles, mandrakes have only pistols and a cc weapon, low strength and poor saves in the open makes then pretty pointless (altho sitting in ruins with a 2+ cover save is useful), grotesques.... well lets see... they cant move without pasing a ld test, the only benefit is that s1-5 weapons cant wound them but you can walk into cc and chop them up.

Scourges are rarely used by i often use them, quad splinter cannons will hurt any 10 man squad (even marines) due to sheer ammount of firepower. Sadly they have a horrible save and as expensive as a terminator :( i'd say dark eldar are more competative than space marines with 5 man las plas squads, terminators with assualt cannons etc

intellectawe
06-06-2006, 18:31
Don't worry about all the haters.

They are just whiney babies who are getting schooled by a codex that is nearing 8 years old, without any upgrades or rukles changes that help DE fit into late 3rd ed, let alone 4rth ed.

DE faq is the most convoluted, confusing faq on the GW site.

With all that said, it is a shame that your opponents will call you cheesy when DE armies are far from cheesy. Its not your fault that your codex has rules that are so out of date, and units unusable by 4th ed rules that you are basically forced to use the same units over and over again.

You are now part of the Elite 40k players. Learn your army well and crush your enemies good.

damz451
06-06-2006, 18:37
good point, hellions, warriors and grotesques are now fairly useless compared to 3rd edition, warriros good combat skills and initiatives are wasted with rapid fire weapons, hellions gets a single rapid fire weapon and are meant for cc.... wtf!?, grots use to be the best human shields available but now they cant do anything at all!

Every single sm unit has a useful purpose and no reason why no unit should not be used but sadly not every other army are like that.

intellectawe
06-06-2006, 20:28
good point, hellions, warriors and grotesques are now fairly useless compared to 3rd edition, warriros good combat skills and initiatives are wasted with rapid fire weapons, hellions gets a single rapid fire weapon and are meant for cc.... wtf!?, grots use to be the best human shields available but now they cant do anything at all!

Every single sm unit has a useful purpose and no reason why no unit should not be used but sadly not every other army are like that.

Thats what people who DONT play DE seem to not understand. We dont have a powerful list because we choose to, we have a powerful list because we HAVE to.

Sure, Iron Warriors "can" be cheesy, but only if the player wants it to be. Imagine a Iron Warrior army roster where you can ONLY choose oblits and heavies? Now you are being FORCED to play a strong army.

Sure, people will say, well, you can still use the other units. No. I dont think so. Our units are actually not usuable under the current rules sets, unlike how they USED to be under the start of third.

Before any DE haters spout out more ignorant retardations, please, use a friends DE army, and use all the units, THEN come back to me and tell me we actually have a choice when a decent, fair and fun game is concerned.

I want marine players being able to field their jump pack troops with heavy weapons, but drop their save to 5+ and toughness to 3, then up their cost to 30 BEFORE buying the lascannon. Welcome to the world of the crap Scourge. I want Marines to be able to double their points cost for a tacitcal marine unit, for no real reason besides being able to tie up units, but not actually doing anything else. Hello Mandrakes. Would you pay 300 points for marines that just tie up a unit and is 99% going to die in two rounds of combat? I dont think so. Thats more than a landraider.

TzarNikolai
06-06-2006, 22:05
wow. i've just taken another look at the DE book and i see what you mean. i was wondering why all my lists looked so similar.

heres my personal view of what units are useful etc.
1. de lord: hell yes. they are unbelievably awesome going up against anything but a c'tan or dreadaxed dp (my pet hate)
2. wych lord: see above
3. haemonculi: underpowered, not enough choice of weapons, competing with the lord for a HQ slot
4. retinue: incubi are all your eggs in one basket. don't have the speed or the versatility of wyches, lack of fleet of foot is pretty big. they have to have a lord accompanying them which can get pricey, and again takes away a free lord on foot/reaverd up running around raising hell.
5. wyches, worth every point. they are the best of the best (but keep them out of fire)
6. mandrakes. whats their appeal? seriously overpriced and underpowered. lack of power weapons, low strength and low survivability really hampers.
7. grots. they're very expensive for not that much damage. they really have to have an IC with them or they're screwed. not much punch. they take up basically a DE lords slot and a wych slot.
8. warp beasts. good if you've got a couple of points free but their low survivability means you shouldn't lose any sleep over not including them.
9. warriors. awesome. great stats, low cost, devestating heavy weapons
10. raider squads. raiders are amazing but a cc oriented warrior squad really has never cut it for me. i prefer mobile firepower with a splinter cannon + blaster. they agoniser syb is too expensive
11. reaver jetbikes. underpowered. they really need another attack in my opinion to make them worth taking, or give them some special rule for spiky bikes like chaos has. (maybe more points to accompany this increase as well ;))
12. hellions. waste of points. why do they have a rapid fire weapon? also why are they so pants in combat? +1 strength? whats that going to do?
13. scourges. the worlds most expensive and fragile devestators. with wings they can't use if they want to fire their overpriced weapons
14. ravager. no complaints here. ever. they are well worth their points. sure their fragile but they can really dish it out
15. talos. too slow IMO. other people see something in it but i can't

so out of these 15 choices (does that seem low to you? seems a little low...) i personally would only really take the 2 types of lord, wyches, warriors, raider warriors and ravager. possibly warp beasts if i was stuck for somewhere to spend 60-70 points. (this is in a 1500 pt game) if it was 2000+ i would maybe splurge and use my blackguard incubi (incubi models may be good but black guard are better). but in 1500 points there appears to be only 6 (or 7 if you count warp beasts)viable choices out of 15. thats terrible.

lets not go through wargear, it'll only get depressing.

intellectawe
07-06-2006, 02:53
wow. i've just taken another look at the DE book and i see what you mean. i was wondering why all my lists looked so similar.



1. de lord: hell yes. they are unbelievably awesome going up against anything but a c'tan or dreadaxed dp (my pet hate)

-Very true. The DE lords are some of the best hand to hand fighting units/hqs in the.

2. wych lord: see above

-see above

3. haemonculi: underpowered, not enough choice of weapons, competing with the lord for a HQ slot

-Haemonculi are not as useful as they used to be. Their ONLY saving grace is that they are dirt cheap, incase you dont want heft HQs soaking up your points. They also can be great carriers for a WWP. Plus they have the only flamer in the DE list, and this flamer happens to be one of the best in the game.

4. retinue: incubi are all your eggs in one basket. don't have the speed or the versatility of wyches, lack of fleet of foot is pretty big. they have to have a lord accompanying them which can get pricey, and again takes away a free lord on foot/reaverd up running around raising hell.

-I sorta agree with you here, but not really. Incubi are a power house that ALL MEQs fear. Incubi, followed by a cheap dracon, can kill just about any infantry unit in teh game. When you price them up against the rest of the DE list, Incubi really don't soak up that many points. DE lists are probably the only army list where we don't hurt for point space. We can fill up a list and have tons of points left over for extra trimmings.

5. wyches, worth every point. they are the best of the best (but keep them out of fire)

-true

6. mandrakes. whats their appeal? seriously overpriced and underpowered. lack of power weapons, low strength and low survivability really hampers.

-they are boot leg infiltrators. garbage. Paying double points for a "warrior" is crap.

7. grots. they're very expensive for not that much damage. they really have to have an IC with them or they're screwed. not much punch. they take up basically a DE lords slot and a wych slot.

-Since the change in targeting rules in 4th ed, Grots are the most useless unit in the entire game. Grots were created for the sole purpose of soaking incoming fire under third ed targeting rules, but now your opponent can just ignore them with a simple leadership test. Pure garbage.

8. warp beasts. good if you've got a couple of points free but their low survivability means you shouldn't lose any sleep over not including them.

-75 points for 6 models that can move and assault 18" with a free agoniser? Great under used unit. Usually only the "pros" use Beasts.

9. warriors. awesome. great stats, low cost, devestating heavy weapons

-Best basic trooper in the game.

10. raider squads. raiders are amazing but a cc oriented warrior squad really has never cut it for me. i prefer mobile firepower with a splinter cannon + blaster. they agoniser syb is too expensive

-Crap excuse for a second troop choice by GW. Too lazy to create a new concept. See necrons few years later...

11. reaver jetbikes. underpowered. they really need another attack in my opinion to make them worth taking, or give them some special rule for spiky bikes like chaos has. (maybe more points to accompany this increase as well ;))

-Perfect tank hunters, but other than that, iffy.

12. hellions. waste of points. why do they have a rapid fire weapon? also why are they so pants in combat? +1 strength? whats that going to do?

-Crap unit with crap gun that cannot be used in 4th ed anymore. garbage.

13. scourges. the worlds most expensive and fragile devestators. with wings they can't use if they want to fire their overpriced weapons

-Another garbage unit. I don't have the time to write all the faults with this unit. This contests grots with the most useless unit in 40k, but loses since this unit can at least deepstrike with splinter rifles... feel the power!!

14. ravager. no complaints here. ever. they are well worth their points. sure their fragile but they can really dish it out

-Perfect. Low points cost for the damage it can dish out. Why does it count as open top? We will never know. But that is a minor complaint. Perfect fit between fragility and fire power.

15. talos. too slow IMO. other people see something in it but i can't

-Another great unit. Stick 2 or 3 of these in a WWP and watch your oponent blow up as you drop these bad boys near his line. Also provides ANOTHER target for your opopnent to shoot at. Hmmmm who should I shoot at, the lone Ravager, the Incubi Raider, the Wych Raiders, or the 2 talos? Provides a wonderful fire magnet for other DE troops. Avoid powerfisted units like the plague!!!

so out of these 15 choices (does that seem low to you? seems a little low...) i personally would only really take the 2 types of lord, wyches, warriors, raider warriors and ravager. possibly warp beasts if i was stuck for somewhere to spend 60-70 points. (this is in a 1500 pt game) if it was 2000+ i would maybe splurge and use my blackguard incubi (incubi models may be good but black guard are better). but in 1500 points there appears to be only 6 (or 7 if you count warp beasts)viable choices out of 15. thats terrible.

-Very true. DE lists suck due to how old the codex is, forcing it's users to make basically carbon copies of lists, unless they want to do something special, which can still win and be fun at the same time.

lets not go through wargear, it'll only get depressing.

zealousheretic
07-06-2006, 05:09
The only reason this doesn't get complained about is because of the bizzare idea that you've got to be an uber-general to play them (which you don't), thus they don't get played much. Plus anybody that does play DE can claim the victory was all down to their tactical genious and every one nods their heads solemly as though they've been taught a great lesson - unlike Craftworld Eldar, who claim that their victories are ALL down to tactical genious, and everybody else just laughs at them :evilgrin:. (joke from another thread - don't take it too seriously)

I do maintain that DE are one of the trickier armies to do well with, simply because they're so fragile. Even in it's "only the best units" configuration (and you do pretty much have to do this, the bad units in that 'dex are awful), the army is not forgiving of mistakes. The idea that you have to be a tactical genius is pure hype, but the army does have a nasty learning curve that causes a lot of people to drop them and try marines instead.

They're also unusual in terms of style; the DE armies I've seen do well are almost universally blisteringly fast and play very, very aggressively. One thing they have going for them is their rarity: since so few people play them, a lot of people don't have a really clear idea how they work.

HeraldoftheGods
07-06-2006, 14:10
The idea that you have to be a tactical genius is pure hype, but the army does have a nasty learning curve that causes a lot of people to drop them and try marines instead.
I agree completely. The learning curve is incredibly harsh, but that doesn't mean that the army is difficult to play with - it just means you have to adjust your mentality.
Unfortunatly a lot of people don't like the struggle of coming up with a different way of winning the game, so the myth of them being an army purely for the tacitcal genius keeps getting renewed and putting off potential players of this great army.

I also agree with the other posters about half the list being shoddy. Each army I make just seems to be a reconfiguration of the same units in play.

Sakura
12-06-2006, 11:48
Dark Eldar can be incredibly competative. Unfortunatly they do this at the expense of over half the units in the army. In fact, they've probably got a worse ratio of good to bad units in their army than the Craftworld Eldar have.

The only reason this doesn't get complained about is because of the bizzare idea that you've got to be an uber-general to play them (which you don't), thus they don't get played much. Plus anybody that does play DE can claim the victory was all down to their tactical genious and every one nods their heads solemly as though they've been taught a great lesson - unlike Craftworld Eldar, who claim that their victories are ALL down to tactical genious, and everybody else just laughs at them :evilgrin:. (joke from another thread - don't take it too seriously)

Penultimate cynisim gets you everywhere and back..
Yours is the sad and humourous truth.
But people are finally realising how cheesey they are taking the only options available to them that mean anything.

Imagine if marines could mini max with 2 lascannons but reduced their save to a 5+.
Imagine if power weapons could wound wraithlords on a 4+
Imagine if your dreadnaught had 3 wounds.
imagine if your command unit could assault right out of a rhino all with power weapons and initiative 5.
(they can sorta but at a far higher cost)
imagine if you could get 30 lascannons with ablative wounds and the unit above and more units to tie up other fast moving combat enemies.
After building my army of 4 troops units with dark lances, a ravenger and talos and heavy incubi raider I decided enough was enough and switch to a more challenging armies to use.

Mandicks are a lot better now in cities of death though you guys, but id still rather a power ranger.

chivalrous
12-06-2006, 12:24
Dark Eldar were my first army and the only army I've been able to get to grips with. I've had nothing but success with them, in contrast to my Space Wolves where I've yet to win a game (I suspect my insistence to use a 'fundamentalist' Space Wolf army and refuse to use Tanks or Land Speeders may have something to do with that...)

But that success has relied on having to take the same list over and over again.
Basically,

HQ

Dracon with 5 model Incubi retinue in a Raider w/ Disintegrator

Elites

2 x 10 model Wych Squads inc Succubus and Wych Weapons in Raider w/ Disintegrator

5 Warp Beasts w/ Beastmaster

Troops

2 x 10 model Warrior Raider Squads w/ Splintercannon and shredder, Raider w/ Disintegrator

2x 10 model Warrior squads w/ 2 Dark Lances and 2 Blasters

Fast Attack

2 x 4 model Reaver Squads w/ 2 blasters

Heavy Support
2 x Ravagers w/ 3 Disintegrators each

With the mobility I have, I concentrate on one flank of the enemy and work my way along their line. The basic tactic was to concentrate firepower on one unit with a Wych/Warrior Raider squad 'tag-team' and in the following round throw the same units into combat with that unit.
Reavers and Foot warriors would obviously try to take out any armour (fastest stuff first) then support later combats. The Lords retinue would support the more difficult assaults.

You don't have to max out on Dark Lances and Blasters, this army has 6 and 8 respectively. I found when I tried maxing out on them that Horde armies would just walk all over me becaue I didn't have enough firepower to whittle them down before close combat began.

I do get annoyed with people who say Dark Eldar players max out on Dark Lances, give us a break, we only have 2 choices to start with!

Eblis_Dead_Forever
12-06-2006, 12:46
The saddest thing is that by the time it gets redone it will be in a worse state than it is now. There were two Dark Eldar players at my club which are both marine players now. One couldn't play with the dark eldar at all the other was one of the best players at the club but was bored with them because it was a very repeative list and most of it was broke. It seems that either way you can't win the Dark Eldar as both refuse to play with them till the new codex comes.

Souleater
12-06-2006, 13:23
3. haemonculi: underpowered, not enough choice of weapons, competing with the lord for a HQ slot

I think Haemies have a fair choice of weaponary, albeit short ranged.

4. retinue: incubi are all your eggs in one basket.

After buying your core of very cheap Warrior/Raider Squads, Ravagers and a unit of wyches, it isn't hard to buy a unit of these guys. They are well worth the points to a DE army. They get heavy armour, STR 4 power weapons and Int 5.

6. mandrakes. whats their appeal?

Initially their ability to turn up in one of three places. But, other than adding to an ongoing assault or contesting a quarter by hiding in cover...meh.

8. warp beasts. good if you've got a couple of points free but their low survivability means you shouldn't lose any sleep over not including them.

They have a long charge range, you get a v cheap Agoniser with them. They are worth their points.

9. warriors. awesome. great stats, low cost, devestating heavy weapons

Hmm...indeed. And possibly the reason we get charged extra for other stuff. NB: this is not a pricing policy I agree with.

10. raider squads. they agoniser syb is too expensive

The agoniser syb in my experience at any rate is normally cutting her way through the enemy squad while her minions die around her. An agoniser wounds anything on a 4+, is a power weapon, and can work on vehicles. And it's what, 20-25pts? Worth the cash.

11. reaver jetbikes. underpowered. they really need another attack

Yes, and to be mounted on normal cavalry bases. At the moment their biggest problem is the size of the flying bases.

12. hellions. waste of points. why do they have a rapid fire weapon?

Who knows. Seriously, whoever decided to give CE guardians shortranged assault weapons and DE warriors/Hellions long range rapid fire weapons - even before the change to 4th - needs his head looking at.

13. scourges. the worlds most expensive and fragile devestators. with wings they can't use if they want to fire their overpriced weapons

Funny, my splinter cannons are move and assault. :) These guys should lose the option to take DLs and have Blaster instead. They are meant to be mobile fire support, trying to use them as a static firebase will see them dead very quickly.

15. talos. too slow IMO. other people see something in it but i can't

It's a superb firemagnet. Chuck it out of a WWP into the enemy at close range and it can slice things up. The problem for me is not its speed but its random number of attacks.


"lets not go through wargear, it'll only get depressing"

Yeah, webway portals, agonisers, shooty hats, Shadow Fields, Combat Drugs. Such sucky, sucky junk :eyebrows:

Sure, there is stuff that isn't taken, but that's true of all wargear lists.

With DE I find I can make a strong list with 800-1000pts out of 1500pts. I can then play around with 'toys' with a third of my list. Does that sound like a hard to master list? I can't do that with WH or Nids. The learnign curve with DE is learning to stay in cover and not letting every lascannon in the game fire at your vehicles.

I'm not denying that some choices are poor due to rules changes but the whole 'DE must be Wych cult or Sniper Min/Max to win' is not, in my humble experinece, true.

Sakura
12-06-2006, 13:36
I agree with everything you say soul eater but the end result will be a very similar list to every other "competitve" list.

Shooty or raidery assault or jet bikey or a mix.

But I really do suggest people use mandrakes more now, the cities of death really help but theyre still poo.

Souleater
12-06-2006, 16:48
That's a reasonable statement, Sakura, but one that can generally be said of most armies. It also covers a fair amount of ground.

Let me rephrase your statement, if I may: DE can be shooty or assaulty - or a mix of the two. DE can be mechanized or infantry based.

And Shooty = Warrior heavy, Assault = Wych heavy. (Although warriors can be okay if you get to pick fights). So DE armies can be very different from one another.

But since all Dark Eldar armies are from Codex Dark Eldar there will be similarities - we're using the same codex and have only two transport options (Raiders or WWP). I do sometimes wonder just how much variation people expect to get with a single dex. I guess we've been spoiled with the CSM dex :)

I mean look at Necron armies: Phalanx or Jetbike...or a mix of the two.

Nids: gribbly horde or MC...or a mix of the two. Shooty or Assault...or a mix of the two.

Not every army list needs to be 'competitive'. We aren't all playing in tournaments with our grandmothers held at gunpoint by the local triads. An army list needs to be fun, first and foremost.

It occurs to me that perhaps one of the problems with the DE list is the very thing I love most about it. It's can be used to make very simple armies, with a minimum of weapon or unit types. You really don't need the variety for a DE list.

Now, that's a great strength but it's a big problem, too. There needs to be a reason to take the other stuff, rather than just for 'fun'. (Yes, I realise this is probably contradictory with my anti-competitive stance)

I don't want to see other units types or weapons. DE don't need 'em. What I would like to see is a tweak for some of their rules.

damz451
12-06-2006, 17:27
dark eldar are as competative as any other army

jansuza
13-06-2006, 12:07
Yay souleater!

I'd have to agree that one of the things I enjoy about DE is that you can make extremely simple yet effective lists.

Look at the basic units you use:

Warriors: They are cheap, and have good stats except for T and save. They can come with two BS4 Dark Lances for a mere 100 points. Worth every penny.

Wyches: 14 points for a girl that halves your WS, takes away your +1 attack for handweapon, and has three attacks on the charge that almost always hit on threes. The combat drugs just make them so much better, with the possible exception of always strikes first. +1 WS makes WS4 opponents hit them on 5+, and as if that isn't enough, you can have a succubus that can hide in the unit, and take down monstrous creatures with ease. Only problem: if they get blinked at, they fall over, which brings us to the next unit:

Raider: 55 points for a BS4 Dark Lance toting fast skimmer. If a landspeeder could do that, you'd see alot more of them around, but wait! there's more, it has the added bonus of giving your wyches an average charge range of 24 inches without drugs (12+2+d6+6), thus safely delivering them into combat and away from getting shot at, their only weakness.

HQ: Coupled with a high WS and I, an archon comes standard with three of the most feared pieces of wargear around. Shadow field, agoniser and combat drugs, making him very scary indeed. He does an average of 3 power weapon kills on the charge (with rerolls +1A), and can take the punishment if you just don't rol a frikken one the whole time... The drachon/drachite is like that, just less survivable, but cheap!

These units already make the basis of a very competitve army, and canny players will use only combinations of these units to great effect. Then there are still great units being left out, of which the Disravager is awesome at killing MEq's, albeit fragile, and the talos is just lotsa fun, that will probably kill what it charges, IF it gets a chance ( doesn't happen alot unless you play a webway army designed to do this)

The rest of the units are there for posterity, although some players will use them to good effect. I personally only consider jetbikes and haemonculi in the running, but that's just me.

How can you not wan't to play DE? :-)

Sakura
27-06-2006, 05:04
Sorry Soul eater, I should have been more clear.
Its those 3 armies that are almost identical. as in:
the 5-6 10 man warriors with 2 dark lances, wyche filled raiders, 1 raider with incubie and lord, talos' and ravengers.

I never see other units being used because people always come up with 'pretty much' the same list, even if they dont know each other.

Now im not ragging on DE, I like the a lot and I find them very competitive but only when its using its smart choices.
Thats why everyone uses them, because theyd be an idiot not to if they wanted to win.

Totally do a mandrake army with sewer rats, totally.
I so wanna see if that makes this unit useful.

Arryn
27-06-2006, 05:11
PFT! *cough!* *splutter!* *choke!* HRK!

In all my years of wargaming i have never heard Dark Eldar called cheesy until this thread!! Do people really think that!?

Dranthar
27-06-2006, 05:51
In regards to the Dark Lance abundance in many Dark Eldar armies, what else would you expect? Our troops get a choice of two possible heavy weapons - the dark lance or the splinter cannon. If we want to kill light infantry while moving (ie. a raider squad/scourges) then you take the splinter cannon. But if you want to shoot tanks and heavy infantry, our ONLY choice is the Dark Lance. So if you're sick of seeing lots of Dark Lances in Dark Eldar armies, blame it on the designers for not giving our infantry any actual alternative to it.

In regards to the rest of the army list, I think alot of people underestimate the value of some units in the Dark Eldar list. Mandrakes in particular are a unit I find highly valuble, not for what they can kill (which is very little), but for how badly they can screw up your opponents plans.
I have a document outlining just how awesome mandrakes are, but it's on my home computer right now, so right now I'll just say that they're a thinking mans unit (thinking in a 40k game? Oh no! :rolleyes: )

Personally my own army list is rarely of the "standard" type. I almost always take mandrakes in my army, I often use grotesques in place of wyches, and I only have one ravager in my collection which I've only ever used in 6 games (ie. one tournament).
I also rarely take incubi and when I do, the Dracon leading them usually doesn't have combat drugs and sometimes not even a shadowfield (they each cost the same as another incubi...which would you rather? ;) ).
Wyches and DE Lords are not ever a mandatory part of my army list. In fact, just about the only things I do take in most games (apart from 5-6 troops choices) is mandrakes and a talos.

I have also used a Mandrake army, consisting of 3 units of 9 mandrakes, the Decapitator, a couple of warrior/raider squads, a talos and (wait for it...) a unit of scourges with splinter cannons. I've so far used that list in over a dozen games and still win more often than I lose with it.

The Dark Eldar are definitely a competitive army, and are probably also a great deal more strategic than what you get in every other codex available. While taking a pile of Dark Lances or going for heaps of incubi/wyches is pretty nasty, it is not the only way to win with the Dark Eldar.

Sakura
02-07-2006, 13:04
@ above: Warriors no long carry blasters or shredders? even though theyre not "heavy" they get plenty of options, you make out like they only have splinters and darks.
The nonheavy weps are hypothetically useful, but in execution not really.
Thanks for echoing me.

@ above above: Dark eldar arnt "Cheesey" wrong choice of words, theyre just "forced" into certain lists to be competitive.
So dark lances arnt that scary when a unit of bland tactical marines are massacring from unit to unit provided they get that far.

Defcon
02-07-2006, 21:43
Every game I want to win with DE I do the same thing.

Turn 2, deploy WWP.

Turn 3, figure at least 1 of my 2 wych squads pops out, along with whatever I am hiding there. If one has 12" assault, it can generally get ANYWHERE out of the WWP due to a possible 27-32" charge, not counting how my WWP would be at around 14-18" forward. By this time, my Bike-mounted Archon with power weapon is slamming on something, or dead. But he's not exactly integral to the plan.

Turn 4-6 Have my wyches run around and murder stuff greatly. By now my warriors are probably all but almost dead, but if it's a mission, whatever I have left will be moving to capture objectives since my wyches can generally tie up at least a flank.

I don't use warriors in raiders, they deploy seperately. I never use Incubi or a Lord in a raider. It's rather mundane of a list, but seeing as it's rather hard to counter having an army's best assault unit appear on the board and get to plow into you unmolested, DE still have it rather good gameplay-wise, even if the options are limited. But the question is competitiveness...