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Psyan
06-06-2006, 02:29
There is a lot of talk going around lately about changes to the VC in 7th Edition. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

The way the rules currently stand, wraiths are about the most useless hero a VC general could take. Yes, terror is nice, but it's not nearly as nice as having the few extra power and dispel dice you get from a necromancer, or the extra CR provided by a nice, fighty vampire thrall or wight lord. I think wraiths are cool, but I can never find a place in my army for one. They just don't do enough.
According to the fluff, wraiths are incorporeal, undead sorcerers who couldn't handle the subtler mysteries of the dark arts. So why not start them out as level 1 casters, with access to arcane items, but no chance to upgrade to level 2? You'd still have the terror, but you'd also get some extra dice and the ability to take some arcane items. A necromancer would still be better if you were looking for a serious caster, but this at least give wraiths some other use other than causing some occasional terror and losing fights to any second rate hero with a magical weapon.

:skull: Psyan :skull:

m1s1n
06-06-2006, 02:45
Not a bad idea. As it stands ethereal is far more powerful than most people give it credit, along with Terror. However, I see no reason for this suggestion not to be heard.

Psyan
06-06-2006, 03:26
Yes, I forgot to mention ethereal...it's a really nice ability, especially on a mage. Because of that, I wouldn't be averse to paying a few more points for the wraith who could cast.

Keller
06-06-2006, 03:29
What should be done with VC Wraiths has been a long debated issue. Frankly, I like them as they are now, but they just can't compete with the other options. I'd be happy with them being Lvl 1 casters with slightly better fighting stats. They could also be made undead-equivilents of the Empire priests, by giving them bound spells and/or magic dice.

I just hope they find a way to make them fair and useful. I like to include them, but its more of just for fun than to compete when they take the field. Since I only play for fun, they have a better than average chance of making it into my list, and still rarely do.

m1s1n
06-06-2006, 05:28
Yeah, a bound spell is a pretty good option for them. Like you said, they really need something to make them standout. Right now they really get overshadowed by other options and their hefty cost seems to get in the way.

gorenut
06-06-2006, 05:54
I always thought they should have a bound version of "Hand of Dust"

It would be very fluffy, like them taking the souls of their opponents.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-06-2006, 06:29
Agreed. Wraiths as they stand currently don't really have very much to add to the VC army. Ethereal being there main benefit, but there are more and more magic attacks in the game, and there is going to be more and more magic attacks in the game, so that advantage isn't nearly as big as it used to be. Terror is nice, but you are already causing tons of psychology tests as a VC army.

Making it some sort of magic user, like the Empire Warrior priest could work very well. And actually fit in with the fluff of wraiths. Something to make there weapon ignore armour saves(as they used to do), maybe a spell to heal themselves, and a 3rd spell that does something, extra terror range, enhanced the combat abilities of the wraith/unit, maybe an offencive spell that slightly weakens the enemy. Just something to give it a place in the army thats actually useful.

Alternativly, make it a champion upgrade for VC units. Kind a like how the engineer is for Dwarf Warmachines. The trick will be to find the right points cost for it. Maybe give up the ethereal for just a regular ward save, to make it a little easier to balance points. As it is right now, ethereal is amazing against some things, and just gets wiped out by others.

Neknoh
06-06-2006, 07:50
How about thre different bound spells instead?

Chill of the Grave
- Bound Spell, Powerlevel 4
The wraith opens the gate to the world of the dead, drawing the chill into the mortal realm, freezing the very will to fight in all living things
All units, friend and foe allike, within 8 inches of the Wraith gets -1 to their leadership (to a total of 1) untill the start of the casters next magicphase. This spell does not affect units immune to psychology.

Scream of the damned
- Bound Spell, Power Level 3
The Wraith screams out its contempt for the living, drawing forth the spirits of a hundred dead women who screams and howls at its side
All units, friend and foe allike, within 6 inches of the wraith must take a panic test as if suffering 25% casualties from shooting. This spell does not affect units immune to psychology.

Touch of Death
- Bound Spell, Power Level 3
The wraith can ripp the soul out of its enemy with a touch
Treat this spell as a bound version of the Necromantic Spell Hand of Dust from the Vampire Counts army book.


Also, couldn't there be a Wraith Only armoury? With things that only wraiths are allowed to take? For instance,

Stone of Unrest
One Use Only, Bound Spell, Power Level 3
This stone is inscribed with a rune of awakening, when shattered, the magical powers of the stone will reach out and bind whatever wandering spirits there are close to the stone into the mortal realm

When used, this summons D3-1 Bases of Spirit Hosts anywhere on the table within 3 inches of the Wraith. If a 1 or 2 is rolled, no Spirit Hosts are summoned.

nevermore
06-06-2006, 10:02
If you want the bottom line on VC's come and ask nevermore::p

wraiths are not good, if you want a nice terror causing block, take a couple of banshees instead, i have had great results with these, take that stupid dwarf on shield!!

Pravus
06-06-2006, 10:13
Banshees don't cause terror, do they? Admittedly, they're a better choice than a wraith if only for the shooting attack but still vulnerable to static CR as is any ethereal.

Bubble Ghost
06-06-2006, 10:29
Wraiths casting magic, bound or otherwise, would weaken to the point of rendering obsolete the "bitter shadow of their former selves" part of their imagery. It would defeat the entire purpose for their existence. If they're going to be beefed up it should be with something more appropriate rather than a half-assed gameplay wish list...

And no, banshees don't cause terror.

nevermore
06-06-2006, 10:32
Banshees don't cause terror, do they? Admittedly, they're a better choice than a wraith if only for the shooting attack but still vulnerable to static CR as is any ethereal.

Banshees cause terror mate. They even frighten me!!

Flame
06-06-2006, 11:48
No they dont.

nevermore
06-06-2006, 11:57
Yes they do, I have just checked it in my codex.

Special rules: ghostly howl,Ethreal,single target, Terror.

Nell2ThaIzzay
06-06-2006, 12:11
Yes they do, I have just checked it in my codex.

Special rules: ghostly howl,Ethreal,single target, Terror.

What codex do you have?

Mine says:

Ethereal; Ghostly Howl; Single Model

nevermore
06-06-2006, 12:13
What codex do you have?

Mine says:

Ethereal; Ghostly Howl; Single Model

The one with the blood dragon on the front cover. They have terror.

Nell2ThaIzzay
06-06-2006, 12:16
The one with the blood dragon on the front cover. They have terror.

I have that one too, and the Banshee doesn't have terror.

nevermore
06-06-2006, 12:25
I have that one too, and the Banshee doesn't have terror.

I am reading it now.

Banshee..... 90 points

Profile
M 8
WS 3
BS 0
S 3
T 4
W 2
I 3
A 2
LD 8



Save: None.

Special Rules: Terror. Howl attack at unit within 8". (2D6+2)-Ld wounds. Banshees are undead and ethereal and use all of the associated rules.

der_lex
06-06-2006, 12:49
Army builder doesn't mention terror either. Not that that's a definitive source, but still.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-06-2006, 12:59
I'd prefer to see Wraiths become some kind of Super Champion for Skeletons and Zombie units, with perhaps 2 per Hero slot. This wouldn't necessarily unbalance anything, as they would still be a fairly hefty points sink, but would add a little extra clout to certain units.

I would also dearly love them to get some kind of Chill Aura, where by enemy units engaged by them suffer -1 to hit or something. This wouldn't be compatible with the 2 per slot, but meh, I'd be happy with either.

nevermore
06-06-2006, 13:00
Maybe they changed the rule in a later printing or something? My necron codex is slightly different to the one i purchased when it first came out.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-06-2006, 13:57
My copy comes from the day of release, and no Terror here.

Keller
06-06-2006, 14:12
No Terror listed for my Banshees either....

metallegion
06-06-2006, 14:23
Banshee do not cause Terror... only wraiths and the black coach.

scavenseer
06-06-2006, 14:24
And Winged Horrors, And Zombie dragons.

sralialo
06-06-2006, 14:25
And Winged Nightmares and Zombie Dragons. Lets not forget them! Then they might come and get us when we sleep...

scavenseer
06-06-2006, 14:31
And Winged Nightmares and Zombie Dragons. Lets not forget them! Then they might come and get us when we sleep...

copycat!:p

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-06-2006, 14:42
Maybe they changed the rule in a later printing or something? My necron codex is slightly different to the one i purchased when it first came out.


The part you added with a pencil doesn't count ;)



@Mad Doc, I like the idea of making them some sort of champion for the undead units, however, even at 2 for 1, they would have to be beefed up considerably to be worth spending a precious hero slot on. Having a chill aura that works like Cursed Book(and maybe removing that item then), might be a good idea. Could even fit with the whole imagery of them. However, I'd still prefer to seem them as a champion upgrade, even if it's the most expensive champion in the game.

Of course, I'd also like to see skeletons turned into proper fighting infantry, with lots of weapon options(especially bows/crossbows!), and then make it impossible for characters to join zombie units(it's just not safe!).

Hideous Loon
06-06-2006, 14:46
I support the Bound HoD option. Wraiths are supposed to be images (could they possibly be avatars, or is that too long a step?) of the Grim Reaper. Should they not be able to have abilites akin to that antropomorphical personification?

And while we're on the subject: I call the Wraith in my VC army MC Hammer, since you can't touch him...

Neknoh
06-06-2006, 18:23
Hrmm... a minus 1 penalty to units fighting them and a 2 for 1 slot and we might be onto something.

How about a rule that makes for all enemy units in btb with a Wraith gets -1 Initiative and -1 Weaponskill, with commulative effects if there are several Wraiths? This can be quite useful I imagine