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View Full Version : An idea for the new Ork Codex - Waagh and extra movement



cailus
08-06-2006, 01:42
Ok, fans of footslogging Orks know that they're going to usually get shot to bits when marching up the battlefield in order to get into assault range.

Very often the squads that make it into close combat are no longer combat effective. I utilise mobs of about 15 and often don't even get to charge before a unit is annihilated through shooting.

So how about a form of Ork Rage ala Black Templar.

So if an Ork passes a moral test or mobsize check for taking casualties in shooting they get to move forward an extra D6. This represents the Orks getting all hyped up about getting closer to battle and charging forward in a reckless manner.

This would also give the Orks a bit more of a chance against super fast asasult armies ala Nids or Assault Marines. Footslogging Orks rarely get a chance to charge such units due to their speed. And unless you're using lots of Storm Boyz and Trukk boyz you probably won't get a charge on these units anyway.

scarvet
08-06-2006, 01:53
As far as I know, Ork don't care about getting charge; WS4 2 attack base plus 10+ wound Nob with power klaw, did I mention about choppas and slugga give you another attack and reduce your opponents Sv to 4+?

Pass mob check for extra movement? You have 15+ boyz in your mob? If you are a fan of foot slogging, you should know those problem before head; Besides, have you since how much fire power a foot slogg Ork army can unload?

The Ork really well made, you can't have big :cheese: but you can easily make it effective

starlight
08-06-2006, 02:16
I'd consider something like a Mob Check to Fleet, so that there is a penalty (no shooting). That would be appropriate for Mobs which give up any hope of hitting the target to get stuck in much faster.

cailus
08-06-2006, 03:11
As far as I know, Ork don't care about getting charge; WS4 2 attack base plus 10+ wound Nob with power klaw, did I mention about choppas and slugga give you another attack and reduce your opponents Sv to 4+?

In case you didn't know, Orks are I2 and choppas only reduce 2+ and 3+ saves. That means that anything that charges Orks gets to strike first usually. They may be T4 but they have a 6+ save and die relatively easy. Last time my Orks played Nids I did not get a charge at all and was torn apart by them (Genestealers with fleet are evil!).

If an Ork mob gets to charge, they can get I4 for the basic trooper if they pass their Waaagh! test. My idea gives the foot slogger a greater chance of getting into charge range.

Furthermore you only get the extra movement if you sustain 25% casualties from shooting and it only applies to footsloggers (Storm Boyz don't run) and as Starlight said, you don't get to shoot. I can't see this being cheesy.


Pass mob check for extra movement? You have 15+ boyz in your mob? If you are a fan of foot slogging, you should know those problem before head; Besides, have you since how much fire power a foot slogg Ork army can unload?

Orks die easily to shooting. And I play on boards with 40% terrain coverage and they still get hammered. The most common S4 weaponry tears apart Orks. Against a skilled Marine opponoent I lose roughly a mob of Orks a turn to concentrated fire.

The Ork's own shooting is not that voluminous if you are utilising assault troops. Most people field mobs of between 15 and 20 models with 3 Big Shootas/Rokkits. At anything over 12 inches, that's 9 BS2 S5 shots or 3 BS2 S8 shots. That may sound impressive, but statistically only 3 of the S5 shots or 1 of the S8 shots will hit.

I actually use a Ork shoota boy unit with 4 Big Shootas but their shooting is negligible at best. But I like the models and I have no probs with them being useless.

Da Reddaneks
08-06-2006, 03:41
that is not a bad idea.

personally, i just hope that we get an across the board point reduction in the cost of the units. We need that one pretty badly. Due to codex creep we are 1 to 2 (and arguably 3 where stormboyz are concerned) points over priced across the board for our boyz. I would be satisfied with just being able to field more boys so that more will make it there after being shot to bitz.

starlight
08-06-2006, 04:41
A simple drop in points would solve most of my concerns.:D

The extra bodies would go a long way to increasing the survivability in true Orky fashion. No pansy skippin', just lots o' ladz stormin' across da field.:evilgrin:

However, for the points they currently cost, they need some sprucing.:D

cailus
08-06-2006, 05:34
Cheaper and more numerous doesn't help that much if you're playing on a table with a reasonable amount of terrain. Big mobs or large numbers of smaller units get bottle necked and are rarely ever able to bring their numbers to bear. This slows you down even further and lets the enemy blow even bigger holes in your lines.

This applies to assaults as well. Fast attackers will still be getting the charge over the Orks and the Orks will still be getting wiped out.

I prefer my option - it means Ork armies will have similar numbers of models but be more effective. It allows Orks to have more opportunities at exploiting the Waaagh test rule.

The Dude
08-06-2006, 05:37
I think Plastic Grots could help too. With a slight tweak to the Grot cover save rules, they could help to keep the Boyz safe a little longer.

If they gave an additional save instead of a cover save, but for each failed Grot save you lose a grot, that'd be cool. Or, on a 5-6 on a d6 you hit the Grot instead (that way they still have a (small) chance of failing to wond the Grot). That way, you have three chances to null your opponents shots.

1) Target Priority

2) Grot Save

3) Armour Save (well, maybe not that often, but still...)

That would also keep the foot sloggers looking like a proper Ork army, with the Grots up front :evilgrin:

Smoking Frog
08-06-2006, 05:44
Maybe four point grots can be attached to any Ork unit without any limit, and if they outnumber the Orkses, then you save for them and remove them, as per the rules.

Nothing special, nothing confusing. What say you folk?

starlight
08-06-2006, 05:49
The designers have long said that 40K will only have one *Save* roll per model.

Target Priority (and anything else that is Leadership based) is pretty farcifal, given the ability of most armies to get Ld 9 or 10 across the board.

I'm still wrestling with how best to use Grotz.......

The Dude
08-06-2006, 06:00
Maybe four point grots can be attached to any Ork unit without any limit, and if they outnumber the Orkses, then you save for them and remove them, as per the rules.

Nothing special, nothing confusing. What say you folk?

Good idea, but that still means for each Boy you have to take 2 Grotz, unless there's a rule that says targetable Grotz (ie not wargear) are always killed first.


The designers have long said that 40K will only have one *Save* roll per model.

Target Priority (and anything else that is Leadership based) is pretty farcifal, given the ability of most armies to get Ld 9 or 10 across the board.

By the same token, 6+ saves are pretty farcical due to the amount of weapons that negate it. Yes it may not happen often, but it will happen SOMETIMES ;).

I still think changing the Grot Cover Save to a 1 in 3 chance of the shot hitting a Grot instead would be a little better. Makes more sense too as you aren't rolling on the Orks T to see if it wounds, only to have a Grot die in his place :wtf:

cailus
08-06-2006, 06:03
Back when I played W40k I tried grotz, but found that they either got in the way, or took up valuable unit slots better left to orks. .

I wholeheartedly agree about Grots getting in the way of things. I still want a unit just for the hell of it.

GodofWarTx
08-06-2006, 07:34
genestealers got it because they have always been discribed as lightning fast, and with a nervous system and muscle system built for speed and incredible speed. Hence the I6 and newly regained speed boost back to their more original M rate in 2nd Edition

Orks have such a rudementary system behind that I2 that half the time, the ork might have its head removed and the ork doesnt even know it yet. Orks are large, lumbering, and nasty beasts, i would rather they have them have a tiny bit more payback with wargear options for a nob outside of a powerclaw that kickass than have orks that are as fast as Genestealers and bred-for-speed creatures of the like. It just wouldnt feel right to have orks run down marines and run toe to toe to eldar, does it? Satisfying, maybe, but not right :)

starlight
08-06-2006, 07:57
The problem is that something is wrong, so lots of ideas are being thrown out as to how to fix it. What we need to do first is to identify the issue before grasping at random problems that may make Orks *better*, but won't address the issue.

Thoughts? What are the core issues with Orks?

Or.................does it really matter what we discuss?:eyebrows:

Latro_
08-06-2006, 08:06
I had this same idea a while ago:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=709377#post709377

Bob Hunk
08-06-2006, 08:17
It just wouldnt feel right to have orks run down marines and run toe to toe to eldar, does it? Satisfying, maybe, but not right :)

I agree with this; I'm in favour of the "cheaper points" option, so you can have more ladz to begin with and a effective combat unit (despite casualties) when you reach enemy lines. :)

The Dude
08-06-2006, 08:23
The problem is that something is wrong, so lots of ideas are being thrown out as to how to fix it. What we need to do first is to identify the issue before grasping at random problems that may make Orks *better*, but won't address the issue.

Thoughts? What are the core issues with Orks?

Or.................does it really matter what we discuss?:eyebrows:

I think the core issue is their vulnerability to the massed small arms fire of most armies. Only Guard have little chance of wounding them and still allow a save (although there's usually heaps of them). Everyone else will leave them with no save and usually wound pretty easily too. that's why I think some tweaks to the Grot rule will give them that little bit of extra protection against massed fire. They shouldn't be moving quicker and denying the enemy a chance to shoot at them, they should be more able to survive the shooting and still have an impact at the end.

This is all attempted to be sorted with mobbing up and the Grot screen, but it's not as smooth as it could be.

MarshallRenald
08-06-2006, 08:46
I do not play Orks but I do play against them. In our most recent tourney an Ork player had 130+ Orks on the board. That is just an insane number to kill. I would not like to see a points reduction that means he could go 150+. I beleive the Orks are grand as they are. But I do want to see what GW does to them next. I will say this. I may not win every game against orks but I always have fun against them because one who plays orks is a fun player anyway.

ashc
08-06-2006, 09:29
I don't see the old stumpy-legged orks bootin' it as fast as eldar on a fleet run or hormone-pumped genestealers, especially after seeing them roll about on dawn of war; Im in the 'cheaper boyz = more boyz for survivability' camp.

Ash

Latro_
08-06-2006, 10:16
I think alot of the whole ork getting shot up thing is the fact it is unforgiving for people who do not put enough thought into deploying and to the same extent army selection.

20 Orks without grots or a mek with KFF deployed without thought for the first 2 turns will get obliterated. I have seen so many people put such a unit in clear LOS of a AC 2X HB predator from the get go!

Invest in a KFF and grots and really consider deployment and you can cut casualties alot! There is still an issue I feel with the whole getting shot up thing but with a bit of forsight it can really help.

Michaelius
08-06-2006, 10:32
They have same problem as current eldar codex. Only a few units is worth their points- mainly trucks and buggies, killer cans, min-maxed flash gits.
I'd like to see big dreds as 1-2 per slot working indepedently on table (or perhaps some update moving it to elites)
Point reduction on common orks would help too and they need some serious anti-tank firepower with more than 24" range (other than looted basilisk/leman russ)

The boyz
08-06-2006, 11:06
Im in the 'cheaper boyz = more boyz for survivability' camp.


I agree, I think a general point decrease should help to remedy the problem. I havent played with Orks for a couple of years now but I remember certain units like Ork Stormboyz, being quite expensive points wise for what they actually are. So I think a general points decrease would help the situation a bit.
I cant really imagine heavy footed Ork's being given an extra movement phase niether, just because they are all Waaaaghed up. I just dont think it would feel right Ork's having extra movement, thats for light footed races like Eldar and Tyranids.

Kriegsherr
08-06-2006, 11:10
Ok, fans of footslogging Orks know that they're going to usually get shot to bits when marching up the battlefield in order to get into assault range.

Very often the squads that make it into close combat are no longer combat effective. I utilise mobs of about 15 and often don't even get to charge before a unit is annihilated through shooting.

So how about a form of Ork Rage ala Black Templar.

So if an Ork passes a moral test or mobsize check for taking casualties in shooting they get to move forward an extra D6. This represents the Orks getting all hyped up about getting closer to battle and charging forward in a reckless manner.

This would also give the Orks a bit more of a chance against super fast asasult armies ala Nids or Assault Marines. Footslogging Orks rarely get a chance to charge such units due to their speed. And unless you're using lots of Storm Boyz and Trukk boyz you probably won't get a charge on these units anyway.

Please no! The thing the BTs got is a little bit ridicoulous (thanks goodness it can be used against them esp. with orks), and I don't see orks fleet. It just don't fit their I and their broad and massive build.

Use cover and klevver taktiks and you never have problem with them enemies shootas. If an ork can be seen in the open, hes usually dead. But on a field with a decent amount of cover, this aint so much of a problem. And Esp. missions like take and hold are good for footslugger orks, because they don't have to walk the full way and they are so many.

What I'd like to see are proper options for transportation, and standart / elite mobs beeing able to take them.

Getifa Ubazza
08-06-2006, 15:49
A points reduction is the way to go, I think. Might be something to ditch the concept of the grot-mob and go with integrating grotz into a unitary 'Gruntz' mob.

It's been suggested before that Shoota Boyz, Slugga Boyz, and Stikkbombaz be integrated into a single troop choice, and I did that for my Dark Millennium rule-set. But imagine a mob where you haul a dozen or so grotz along to catch bullets, set-off mines, haul ammunition, help stabilize guns, and entangle or distract opponents, and occasionally even provide a helpling paw in duffing them over.

When the mob tries to cross a mine-field, or gets shot at, or takes casualties in an assault, grotz can be removed first regardless of whether they are the majority and regardless of the torrent of fire rules. This would make mobz more resilient.

When they aren't providing small fungusy grot-shields, they can either help out an ork by adding +1 to a roll to repair ('old dis!), heal (stitch dis!), shoot ('old 'er steady!/mo' dakka!), or hack (get 'im!), or attack the enemy with their puny weapons.

As for limitations say you can have one grot per Ork in the mob, and they take up the same space in transports. Naturally they won't count towards Waaagh checks, as they're too weedy. They're there to do the heavy work and die, not have fun! That's for the proper orks...

Why not have boyz units work in a similar way to beastmen in fantasy; What you do is buy gors and ungors(orks and grots) all in the same unit, you take all shooting casualties from the ungors(grots) until there all dead and all HtH casualties from the gors(orks) until theres none left.

So whatcha fink?:)

Da Reddaneks
08-06-2006, 15:58
Ok, here are my worthless rantings on how to increase ork survivability going across the board.

(1) allow grots to infiltrate. Many people dont like grots because they view them as (a) getting in the way because they slow down the army, and (b) by placing the grots in front it means you are putting your orks slightly further back from your front lines possibliy causing you to take an additional round to get into hand to hand combat. Grots infiltrating would cover this. But dont increase the cost of the grots because their usefullness is tied in part to their cost. Perhaps pick two special rules (grot cover save, move through cover, mine clearance, infiltrate) from a list of 4 similar to cultists in alpha legion. this also fits ork fluff.

(2) Feel no pain. It fits the fluff perfectly well for orks to have a feel no pain roll on a 6+. this would give them some small protectiion from small, and relatively small, weapons fire but would still allow them to be blown to bits by things which should blow them to bitz.

(3) lower the cost of the boyz. The number of casualties taken by crossing the board would be off set by an increase in the number of boys that a person could charge across the board. Ork need this one VERY badly in my opinion. and it fits ork fluff perfectly well.

cailus
09-06-2006, 02:33
Please no! The thing the BTs got is a little bit ridicoulous (thanks goodness it can be used against them esp. with orks), and I don't see orks fleet. It just don't fit their I and their broad and massive build.

Use cover and klevver taktiks and you never have problem with them enemies shootas. If an ork can be seen in the open, hes usually dead. But on a field with a decent amount of cover, this aint so much of a problem. And Esp. missions like take and hold are good for footslugger orks, because they don't have to walk the full way and they are so many.

I don't like the BT thing either but it's here to stay.

I agree that one should use lots of terrain. The only problem is that many places where one can play WH40K don't have terrain. Even tournaments seem to use very little terrain.



What I'd like to see are proper options for transportation, and standart / elite mobs beeing able to take them.


This would just turn every Ork army into a Speed Freaks army.

The Dude
09-06-2006, 02:51
(1) allow grots to infiltrate. Many people dont like grots because they view them as (a) getting in the way because they slow down the army, and (b) by placing the grots in front it means you are putting your orks slightly further back from your front lines possibliy causing you to take an additional round to get into hand to hand combat. Grots infiltrating would cover this. But dont increase the cost of the grots because their usefullness is tied in part to their cost. Perhaps pick two special rules (grot cover save, move through cover, mine clearance, infiltrate) from a list of 4 similar to cultists in alpha legion. this also fits ork fluff.

This I like :). I have to admit, I forgot about the move through cover rule. I think infiltrate will help to make them a little more useable, as you don't have to fill your deployment zone up with Grotz just to make sure you have enough to screen the boyz.

Toppan
09-06-2006, 05:09
i say...make em like they are in dawn of war...not exactly...but it seems they do better on a computer game than in real life :(

zealousheretic
09-06-2006, 06:29
(2) Feel no pain. It fits the fluff perfectly well for orks to have a feel no pain roll on a 6+. this would give them some small protectiion from small, and relatively small, weapons fire but would still allow them to be blown to bits by things which should blow them to bitz.


This is an interesting idea, it definitely would emphasize the fact that Orks are tough (they're really supposed to be, despite being shredded by just about everything the game can throw at them).



(3) lower the cost of the boyz. The number of casualties taken by crossing the board would be off set by an increase in the number of boys that a person could charge across the board. Ork need this one VERY badly in my opinion. and it fits ork fluff perfectly well.

I question the neccessity of this, mostly because I've found that Orks do just fine if they're fighting an assaulty army, or mobile firepower-type list. They just have problems charging the static gunline some people really like to field their marines across the back of the board in. Cheaper boyz would help them do that, but it'd also make them much nastier against assault armies, and I don't think they need help in that department.

Kriegsherr
09-06-2006, 11:01
I agree that one should use lots of terrain. The only problem is that many places where one can play WH40K don't have terrain. Even tournaments seem to use very little terrain.


Good point.... hm.
I must say, marines wouldn't be such a nuisance to such a lot of players if the general gaming table would get more terrain. But its true that this is often just not possible on big events.
I hope CoD will change this for the better. But then again, I will throw out 500$ alone to get all the building sprues I need to build the table of my dreams. And thats before all the gubbinz for rubble ans streets come into the equation. I really hope my lads will also buy something, or I have to bash them in an orky fashion for playing the parasites ;)
I imagine most players only get 2 or four buildings. A well, better then nothing.




This would just turn every Ork army into a Speed Freaks army.

a) is this bad? I mean, as long as they balance the speed freak army, no one would have anything against it. The footslugger army must remain same effective. But by taking away most of the special rules for spead freaks this could be accomplished. All vehicle and Bike armies have some shortcomings.

b) Why would everyone take speed freak? Because they ROCK? I don't believe this. Even now there are a lot of footslugger armies around, even though everyone can take SF.




(1) allow grots to infiltrate.


It would als allow to use grots as something useful besides bringin orks into battle safely. Don't get me wrong, I want them to stay weak and unorky. I just would like to have a wave of grots sneaking through the woods trying to win against IG Soldiers through numbers before they can hit the boyz with their nasty mortar. Because they hope to get some love from da boyz afterwards. (They should know by no all love they get is a kick coming from the depth of the orks heart, but grots never seem to learn :))
I think it would make a nice alternative to the Kommandos.


The Feel no pain throw would also be nice. It would make perfect sense for orks.

Kriegsherr
09-06-2006, 15:06
Orks are insanely tough. That's why they have a Toughness of 4. Likewise Ork armies have no particular trouble with armies that sit back and shoot when they have lots of shootas, big gunz, and other ranged weaponry.

My feeling exactly. As long as you build up your ork army well balanced, and make klevver deployment and moves, they are quite though to kill.

It would be a nice twist to have a 6+ feel no pain throw, but its not needed.

cailus
10-06-2006, 04:09
My feeling exactly. As long as you build up your ork army well balanced, and make klevver deployment and moves, they are quite though to kill.

Well balanced and klevver deployment and moves will not stop you getting chewed up by heavy bolters.

I usually play at home on on table with relatively dense terrain (40% coverage) with lots of area terrain, line of sight blocking etc.

This has 3 effects on my gameplay:

1.) Lots of opportunities cover saves
2.) Slowed down movement due to difficult terrain
3.) Slowed down movement due to bottlenecks i.e. Orks not being able to move fully.
4.) Reduced fire lanes for enemy shooting.

The games are balanced but they are also balanced cause my main opponent deliberately doesn't load up on heavy bolters and always picks a different army.

However when I play anywhere else the terrain coverage is usually the minimum 25% or less. Orks get absolutely shredded on tables like this. And it would appear that these tables are the norm.

This is why I want a rule that will enable them to be a little bit faster - call it the momentum of the waaagh.

But then who cares about fluff? GW obviously don't (Overcharged engines and Guardian meatshields anyone?)

And it's not a cheesy rule as you have to lose 25% casualties to get it.



Reduce points of Orks

No-one's really stated by how much points would be reduced.

If it's only by 1 point or so then the effect on Ork numbers is negligible. Assuming most people field around 80 Ork infantry models (footslogging elites included), then that's an additional 80 points to spend. So you might get an additional 10 Orks - whoopee do.

It does of course benefit people who use large numbers of models but that means virtually no fast attack, no heavy and even not many elites.

Helicon_One
10-06-2006, 21:03
Back to the original suggestion, the problem I have with speed boosts is that making footslogging Orks move faster just pushes them towards Nid territory. Changes to the Ork list should focus on distinguishing them more from other armies, not pushing them closer together. I liken an Ork horde to a runaway steamroller - only moves slowly towards you, but when it hits it rolls straight over you and squashes you flat.

Would this be a good opportunity to plug (again) my Ork Codex thread in the Rules Dev forum, which nobody replied to yet (*sulks*)?

Tim