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Bloodknight
20-07-2014, 00:48
for a good example of normal persons writing extremely insane/sick background for a game.

If you like that stuff, check out the Swedish RPG Kult (it is/was also available in at least English and German). Stay away from the prefabricated adventures, though. There's a lot of seriously sick stuff in there that I wish I could unread.

Actually, while its fluff is quite well done, just as V:TM's used to be (NWoD isn't my thing, so I never really bothered reading it. Not comparing to it in anyway.), I sometimes like to question how normal these guys really are/were. :).



@Melkanador: long time no see :). I think the last time I read something from you, it was still on Wargate, back in 2010 before it croaked :).

Herzlos
20-07-2014, 13:15
There are so many bad business decision GW made, but as GW doensn´t make any mistakes, it must be someone else´s fault like a hard- or softwareproblem one couldn´t predict. ;)

Talking to someone within the more inner cirlce of managment of GW is like talking to some fanatical religious person: no matter what you say to them, nothing will invalidate their set of beliefs.

Because their jobs rely on it. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them privately disagree with these beliefs but are too terrified to say so where anyone else might hear them, for fear of losing their job. Some of them must see how crazy it is, but it really does expain everything.

f2k
20-07-2014, 13:31
Because their jobs rely on it. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them privately disagree with these beliefs but are too terrified to say so where anyone else might hear them, for fear of losing their job. Some of them must see how crazy it is, but it really does expain everything.

In all honesty, Games Workshop must be a really nasty place to work. So many things wrong, and yet no-one dares say anything. And there's always the sound of knives being sharpened, should you say or do anything wrong or simply fail to meet your sale-quota for the month.

MiyamatoMusashi
20-07-2014, 13:37
Back in the day (long time ago now) it was a lot of fun, day-to-day. Longer term career prospects were nil, of course, except maybe for brown-nosers and even then I'm not sure. So, yeah, there was always an undercurrent of tension, but the day job was fun.

ObiWayneKenobi
20-07-2014, 13:46
If they really do think that, wow. They are delusional. That way of thinking really puts their decisions into perspective.

bittick
21-07-2014, 06:15
If you like that stuff, check out the Swedish RPG Kult (it is/was also available in at least English and German). Stay away from the prefabricated adventures, though. There's a lot of seriously sick stuff in there that I wish I could unread.


I remember Kult. Now that was pretty grim. Tried playing it once or twice, but the games kept falling apart.

winterdyne
21-07-2014, 08:15
Is that the one with 'reality is a lie' as a tag line? Seem to remember it.

Bloodknight
21-07-2014, 14:34
Yes, that's it.

winterdyne
21-07-2014, 15:02
Yeah, that one got warnings from several mental health organisations as I remember. Rightfully so I think, it was rather twisted.

Inquisitor Engel
21-07-2014, 19:52
Because their jobs rely on it. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them privately disagree with these beliefs but are too terrified to say so where anyone else might hear them, for fear of losing their job. Some of them must see how crazy it is, but it really does expain everything.

That's honestly working at 99.9% of the companies out there.

I've worked for Best Buy, Apple, GameStop and a major international construction company, all in their corporate offices and I STRONGLY disagreed with some of the decisions they made, but I didn't always speak up, why? Because in the long run, my job and income is more important than each individual decision. Things that will work out and pan out tend to, and bad ideas tend to not. Throwing yourself on the sword tends to end up badly for those who have people who depend on them for income.

It's part of being an adult and having a real job. Weighing when to speak up and when to not. You could argue that GW's employees should speak up juuuuuust a bit more, but saying their unwillingness to do so is indicative of it being "zomg worst place to work ever" is ridiculous. There's a reason Gav, Graham and Andy H. all continue to work the GW, after all.

If you agree with everything your company does or believes, then you're either extremely impressionable, or extremely lucky (or work for yourself).

bittick
21-07-2014, 21:20
Is that the one with 'reality is a lie' as a tag line? Seem to remember it.

Yeah, in that game, reality is sort of like the Matrix (though it predates that movie). It's based on Gnosticism. Our perception of reality was put in place by God as a prison to keep us confined, to keep us from realizing our true nature as powerful gods ourselves. So you either act in a good manner to reach enlightenment, or you act as evil as possible to become some sort of infernal creature. Once you pass a certain level of enlightenment/corruption, you can see through the cracks of reality and start getting powers.

So we really need GW execs to do that so they can start seeing through the facade the company has created to blind them (aaaand back on topic!).

ShruikhanTK
26-07-2014, 01:38
Most of the people that quit Fantasy and haven't gone back left at the beginning of 8th, I agree it was a rough start as the % composition of armies messed with peoples builds, however now that most of the armies got 8th books I find them very balanced point wise. The games have to be bigger if you want to run lords on dragons and such but is that really a bad thing? Magic/Cavalry need a tweak but 8th over all had been a vast improvement over 7th power gaming.

jtrowell
26-07-2014, 10:53
For me 8th edition was the one that opened the door for me and my friends to come back ... and the price policy, as well as a few WTF things in the new army book (like the mobile canons, tha "lazy design" ASF for elves, and so on ...) are what are making me look for another sources for new models and rules.

Voss
27-07-2014, 00:40
Most of the people that quit Fantasy and haven't gone back left at the beginning of 8th, I agree it was a rough start as the % composition of armies messed with peoples builds, however now that most of the armies got 8th books I find them very balanced point wise. The games have to be bigger if you want to run lords on dragons and such but is that really a bad thing? Magic/Cavalry need a tweak but 8th over all had been a vast improvement over 7th power gaming.

My experience was that they left during 7th, not 8th, and the spectre of larger armies and larger battle size simply failed to bring them back, despite bringing the broken army books into line..

MiyamatoMusashi
27-07-2014, 16:43
My experience was that they left during 7th, not 8th, and the spectre of larger armies and larger battle size simply failed to bring them back, despite bringing the broken army books into line..

My experience was that everyone round here played 7th, but played 8th only long enough to get an idea what it's like, now it's just one guy begging someone, anyone, for a game, with no takers.

ColShaw
27-07-2014, 17:14
My experience was that everyone round here played 7th, but played 8th only long enough to get an idea what it's like, now it's just one guy begging someone, anyone, for a game, with no takers.

This is pretty much my experience, also.

Poseidal
27-07-2014, 17:21
This is pretty much my experience, also.

Similar here too.

Yowzo
28-07-2014, 06:43
This is pretty much my experience, also.
Here WHFB had a big drop rate at the tail end of 7th and beginning of 8th, but most came back and the game is now bigger than ever. On any given Sunday at the club 6 or 7 out of 10 tables are WHFB games.

40k OTOH is on a rough patch, most players have quit and play WHFB, FoW or Bolt Action instead.

ehlijen
28-07-2014, 06:56
Remember that 8th ed coincided with a very long gap in army book releases. The drop off in players could well have been because the periodic shoring up of numbers through faction books didn't happen for a while.

The two in conjunction, a new very different edition and few army books that were written for it, are a really bad combination, but it either alone was going to be a stress test to begin with.

barjed
28-07-2014, 14:31
I thought 8th is widely considered the best edition so far and I agree. Sure, there are some problems but generally speaking WFB is in great place rule wise and book wise. The rules are tight, the armies are balanced. I play both games and I find Fantasy to be better designed, more tactical and more elegant. Plus it has a strong following in my country, so all boxes are checked :)

ObiWayneKenobi
28-07-2014, 14:44
I thought 8th is widely considered the best edition so far and I agree. Sure, there are some problems but generally speaking WFB is in great place rule wise and book wise. The rules are tight, the armies are balanced. I play both games and I find Fantasy to be better designed, more tactical and more elegant. Plus it has a strong following in my country, so all boxes are checked :)

I've actually heard 8th edition Fantasy is pretty good, the issue like most GW offerings is the insane price to do anything. When due to their pricing you need to buy 2-3 boxes of already expensive units to make a single usable unit, that's ridiculous as you're spending $100 or more per unit.

MiyamatoMusashi
28-07-2014, 15:03
I thought 8th is widely considered the best edition so far and I agree.

"Widely considered" by whom?

The people still playing it and talking about it, I presume, which doesn't include anyone who stopped playing it and moved onto something else because they didn't consider it the best edition so far.

Yowzo
28-07-2014, 15:08
"Widely considered" by whom?

By people who play it, of course.

Been playing since 4th and 8th is the best fun and most level playing field ever.

Of course it took some adapting, and some people will always whinge when presented with change but it turns out it was for the best. It certainly drove out some of the most obnoxious powergamers and kids obsessed with the latest I win button, and the tournament scene is certainly much friendlier right now.

frozenwastes
28-07-2014, 15:32
It's dead here too. There's one annual tournament that has WFB and one day and 40k on the next. The 40k tournament gets 40+ people and usually fills up to the point of a waiting list in pre-registrations, the last WFB has 3 people pre-register so it was cancelled.

HelloKitty
28-07-2014, 15:38
Here our last 40k campaign had 55 players and our current fantasy campaign has 26. 40k is always more popular but both games are doing pretty well in terms of players.

Poseidal
28-07-2014, 15:38
By people who play it, of course.

Been playing since 4th and 8th is the best fun and most level playing field ever.

Of course it took some adapting, and some people will always whinge when presented with change but it turns out it was for the best. It certainly drove out some of the most obnoxious powergamers and kids obsessed with the latest I win button, and the tournament scene is certainly much friendlier right now.

It's friendlier on account of being smaller, and if it were less friendly there'll be even fewer players than there was.

Also, the 'whinging about change' is not what happened mostly. On first appearance it was embraced, and had people looking forward to it. It was after a few weeks of playing that attrition on the player base began and whole Fantasy playing groups/communities have vanished, even though in that initial run using old army books it was much more balanced than 7th edition.

In terms of making more or even keeping players, it has been a disaster.

HelloKitty
28-07-2014, 15:45
With our area, 8th edition was abandoned a couple weeks on release by the tournament guys. They still don't really play it, having moved on to something else. The narrative guys have taken it over.

If you ask our tournament players how 8th fantasy is doing, they will tell you it is dead here too even though it is not.

MiyamatoMusashi
28-07-2014, 16:16
By people who play it, of course.

Yes. The problem being, people who "tried playing it and decided they didn't like it" stopped playing it and thus their opinion is ignored by that statement.

So if it's "widely considered" to be the best, it may possibly be "even more widely considered" to be the worst. Or... may not. I don't know the stats, I haven't researched the player-base (and ex-player-base), and neither has anyone else, so claims of anything being "widely considered" are fundamentally unsound.

Suffice to say that "people who like 8th Ed, like 8th Ed" is tautological and thus not useful.

Yowzo
28-07-2014, 19:30
Yes. The problem being, people who "tried playing it and decided they didn't like it" stopped playing it and thus their opinion is ignored by that statement.

So if it's "widely considered" to be the best, it may possibly be "even more widely considered" to be the worst. Or... may not. I don't know the stats, I haven't researched the player-base (and ex-player-base), and neither has anyone else, so claims of anything being "widely considered" are fundamentally unsound.

Suffice to say that "people who like 8th Ed, like 8th Ed" is tautological and thus not useful.
8th edition (and subsequent army book releases) addressed many of the reasons why most people left WHFB at that point.

In my experience people who left after 8th edition was released were either angry that their army had been nerfed or weren't willing to paint/field "hordes" because they perceived that was the only way to win.

Most of those who left during 7th have come back. Especially after the wood elf release, and many others are waiting for brets to come back next.

Altogether our group is bigger now than it was at the start of 7th.

MiyamatoMusashi
28-07-2014, 19:34
In my experience people who left after 8th edition was released were either angry that their army had been nerfed or weren't willing to paint/field "hordes" because they perceived that was the only way to win.

Your experience does not match mine. Your reasons for people leaving do not match the reasons I left.


Most of those who left during 7th have come back.

Citation needed.


Altogether our group is bigger now than it was at the start of 7th.

Ours is non-existent. But by all means extrapolate your own experience to cover the rest of the world.

ColShaw
28-07-2014, 21:01
In my experience people who left after 8th edition was released were either angry that their army had been nerfed or weren't willing to paint/field "hordes" because they perceived that was the only way to win.

While I appreciate the insinuation that those people who left after 8th ed were people who played only to win, I disagree on every count in this sentence with respect to my own experience.

I already had hordes for one of my armies (Night Goblins); several hundred of the little blighters. I've never paid particular attention to my army being "nerfed"; I played infantry armies in the "cavalry edition" of 7th ed, after all. What angered me was the tactical bankruptcy Steadfast created, the bizarre randomness and simultaneous lack of importance of mundane effects of terrain, the ever-increasing costs of rules updates, and the move toward more powerful magic and bigger creatures. Oddly enough, I LIKE large infantry units and infantry-themed armies, and I hate 8th Ed WFB. Where does that leave me in your analysis?

I bought 8th Ed when it came out, with excitement and anticipation. I played it with dawning dismay, frustration, and boredom. It has nothing to do with losing games, or perceiving less power in my armies; that is frankly insulting. I won about as much as I did before; I lost about as much as I did before. I just stopped enjoying the experience.

ntw3001
29-07-2014, 04:47
Regarding 'whinging about change': If I asked nicely, would the Internet stop claiming this about every single complaint anyone disagrees with?

I don't know about the differences in editions of Warhammer, but it seems like it may be a matter of opinion and simply discounting opposing opinions as invalid, solely because one must acknowledge them but does not wish to address them, is not terribly convincing. Like, if a burglar comes in and leaves a **** on my bed, I don't like that. If I complain about it online, will people conjecture that I just hate change and need to learn to enjoy the ****-bed? I dunno, maybe sometimes having a **** in your bed actually does genuinely suck , even if other people might have liked it.

Not that this thread's example is particularly egregious, but it bugs the hell out of me. Deal with it please, Internet, or else I'll have you switched off.

bittick
29-07-2014, 05:15
Because of the board censoring your post, I'm having a lot of fun imagining what item the burglar left in your bed.

Master Sheol
29-07-2014, 07:08
Opinions dont matter, facts do...
According to North American independent retailers WHFB is no more in the top 5 fantasy/SF best selling wargames...
This is a fact that States that in North America People are abandoning WHFB... IS the 8th Edition better? I dont (I Left at the beginning of 7th) but if People are lefting WHFB i can assume that even if 8th is better than 7th they had enough of WHFB...

ehlijen
29-07-2014, 07:09
Regarding 'whinging about change': If I asked nicely, would the Internet stop claiming this about every single complaint anyone disagrees with?

...

Not that this thread's example is particularly egregious, but it bugs the hell out of me. Deal with it please, Internet, or else I'll have you switched off.

There is no The Internet. It's all just a bunch of people, all of them with opinions, many of which will differ from yours. Even those of people into the same things as you will have different opinions, and those differences are the ones you'll notice the most.

Everyone should be a bit more polite and understanding of this fact, but conflating everyone into one homogenous blob and thus attributing every opinion you don't like to everyone who has ever disagreed with you on anything isn't helpful.

Everyone will disagree with you on something (or you be your clone), but many people will still manage to agree with you on many things, just not on everything.

Remember, any group consists of people, all of which are different.

Poseidal
29-07-2014, 07:30
While I appreciate the insinuation that those people who left after 8th ed were people who played only to win, I disagree on every count in this sentence with respect to my own experience.

I already had hordes for one of my armies (Night Goblins); several hundred of the little blighters. I've never paid particular attention to my army being "nerfed"; I played infantry armies in the "cavalry edition" of 7th ed, after all. What angered me was the tactical bankruptcy Steadfast created, the bizarre randomness and simultaneous lack of importance of mundane effects of terrain, the ever-increasing costs of rules updates, and the move toward more powerful magic and bigger creatures. Oddly enough, I LIKE large infantry units and infantry-themed armies, and I hate 8th Ed WFB. Where does that leave me in your analysis?

I bought 8th Ed when it came out, with excitement and anticipation. I played it with dawning dismay, frustration, and boredom. It has nothing to do with losing games, or perceiving less power in my armies; that is frankly insulting. I won about as much as I did before; I lost about as much as I did before. I just stopped enjoying the experience.

YES. This is it.

Commissar Vaughn
29-07-2014, 07:37
Quote Originally Posted by ColShaw
While I appreciate the insinuation that those people who left after 8th ed were people who played only to win, I disagree on every count in this sentence with respect to my own experience.

I already had hordes for one of my armies (Night Goblins); several hundred of the little blighters. I've never paid particular attention to my army being "nerfed"; I played infantry armies in the "cavalry edition" of 7th ed, after all. What angered me was the tactical bankruptcy Steadfast created, the bizarre randomness and simultaneous lack of importance of mundane effects of terrain, the ever-increasing costs of rules updates, and the move toward more powerful magic and bigger creatures. Oddly enough, I LIKE large infantry units and infantry-themed armies, and I hate 8th Ed WFB. Where does that leave me in your analysis?

I bought 8th Ed when it came out, with excitement and anticipation. I played it with dawning dismay, frustration, and boredom. It has nothing to do with losing games, or perceiving less power in my armies; that is frankly insulting. I won about as much as I did before; I lost about as much as I did before. I just stopped enjoying the experience.
YES. This is it.

Ditto.


Gone back to 4th/5th. And even then Im still trying to persuade my gaming group to let me cut out all the warhammer movement rules and paste in the command and control rules from Hail Caeser.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-07-2014, 07:38
Opinions dont matter, facts do...

Ahahahahaha! :) Sorry, the naivite was too much.


Please don't tell me you seriously believe that.



Remember, any group consists of people, all of which are different.

I'm not!

MusingWarboss
29-07-2014, 13:40
Regarding 'whinging about change': If I asked nicely, would the Internet stop claiming this about every single complaint anyone disagrees with?

I don't know about the differences in editions of Warhammer, but it seems like it may be a matter of opinion and simply discounting opposing opinions as invalid, solely because one must acknowledge them but does not wish to address them, is not terribly convincing. Like, if a burglar comes in and leaves a **** on my bed, I don't like that. If I complain about it online, will people conjecture that I just hate change and need to learn to enjoy the ****-bed? I dunno, maybe sometimes having a **** in your bed actually does genuinely suck , even if other people might have liked it.

Not that this thread's example is particularly egregious, but it bugs the hell out of me. Deal with it please, Internet, or else I'll have you switched off.


Because of the board censoring your post, I'm having a lot of fun imagining what item the burglar left in your bed.

I'm going for Rose, I also quite like to think that the burglar also left a box of Cadburys Milk Tray on the bedside table but ntw3001 hasn't noticed yet but was really angry when they sat on the Rose and got a thorn in the bum! http://youtu.be/THH8p21akrA

ntw3001
29-07-2014, 13:49
Curse these charming burglars!

williamsond
29-07-2014, 16:58
fancy leaving a mule on your bed, but i must agree fantasy isn't as popular as it used to be when i was a lad, it used to be swings and roundabouts with which game system 40k or fantasy was prime back in the day but the last 7 or so years in my opinion its been pushed to the way side.

How does this relate to the original topic? I believe that TSR also pushed all its eggs into a system it believed too big to fail, back before it went bottom up maybe this will happen with GW too, I know the financials seem to show things are not great in Nottingham.

Unexo
29-07-2014, 21:58
I haven't played fantasy in 10 years, only 40k. But my personal opinion is, that fantasy is old and that the failure is because they are too afraid to change the core mechanics of the game. I, and my old fantasy buddies love the lore and the models, even more than 40k. But the only way we would even consider fantasy, is if they dropped the square bases. (1) We hate the movement and trouble this gave. (2) We hate the "you got to model your figure so it can stay next to another to all 4 sides.

40k is fluid, and this is why it won. It allows for great conversions, and the gameplay works without. Fantasy allowed to "get old" and slip away. It should have been given radical changes to the game, imo, but probably a lot will disagree.

MusingWarboss
29-07-2014, 23:28
I haven't played fantasy in 10 years, only 40k. But my personal opinion is, that fantasy is old and that the failure is because they are too afraid to change the core mechanics of the game. I, and my old fantasy buddies love the lore and the models, even more than 40k. But the only way we would even consider fantasy, is if they dropped the square bases. (1) We hate the movement and trouble this gave. (2) We hate the "you got to model your figure so it can stay next to another to all 4 sides.

40k is fluid, and this is why it won. It allows for great conversions, and the gameplay works without. Fantasy allowed to "get old" and slip away. It should have been given radical changes to the game, imo, but probably a lot will disagree.

The bolded bit is the bit that I just want to address. The square bases are a hangover from its skirmish days when people could roam free but also could rank up. It's been fully ranked for a long time now.

If they embraced multibasing then it would be possible to have any amount of conversions and scenic pieces, you wouldn't be restricted by models being wound counters and it would hopefully be neater and swifter. Though that's a matter of opinion.

Single basing fantasy and having them wander around loosely formed like 40k sounds like it would be pretty much be playing Apocalypse with WFB models, the time it would take to shift all those troops would be a chore given current army levels.

Although, as I've written somewhere on Warseer once before, they could end up just making one set of rules called Warhammer and subtitling it "Games in the Old World and 41st Millennium" and it would contain a common rules mechanic and the codex/army books would provide the flavour and specialist rules. Certainly ditching the square bases and ranking up would send it that way. And if fantasy is proving as unpopular as some Internet commentators would have it with current prices I wouldn't be surprised to see them conjoin the Warhammer lines into one main rulebook as it would ease development on their part but still offer support to both games.

There is a sort of precedent in the LotR games for circular bases (and movement trays) but I can only imagine the competition players rage fury at having to rebase thousands of points of models to be allowed to legally play. :shock:

ObiWayneKenobi
30-07-2014, 00:17
The bolded bit is the bit that I just want to address. The square bases are a hangover from its skirmish days when people could roam free but also could rank up. It's been fully ranked for a long time now.

If they embraced multibasing then it would be possible to have any amount of conversions and scenic pieces, you wouldn't be restricted by models being wound counters and it would hopefully be neater and swifter. Though that's a matter of opinion.

Single basing fantasy and having them wander around loosely formed like 40k sounds like it would be pretty much be playing Apocalypse with WFB models, the time it would take to shift all those troops would be a chore given current army levels.

Although, as I've written somewhere on Warseer once before, they could end up just making one set of rules called Warhammer and subtitling it "Games in the Old World and 41st Millennium" and it would contain a common rules mechanic and the codex/army books would provide the flavour and specialist rules. Certainly ditching the square bases and ranking up would send it that way. And if fantasy is proving as unpopular as some Internet commentators would have it with current prices I wouldn't be surprised to see them conjoin the Warhammer lines into one main rulebook as it would ease development on their part but still offer support to both games.

There is a sort of precedent in the LotR games for circular bases (and movement trays) but I can only imagine the competition players rage fury at having to rebase thousands of points of models to be allowed to legally play. :shock:

For a while now there's been a rumor of something allowing you to mix 40k and Fantasy. It's never developed though (beyond typical Faeit clickbait) but it's entirely possible that a new version of Fantasy could use the LOTR rules since LOTR/Hobbit is basically DOA now, and from there it's a hop, skip and a jump away from going back to something like the original Realm of Chaos book that had rules for both WHFB and 40k (Rogue Trader) for Chaos Warbands.

Muad'Dib
30-07-2014, 14:41
Oddly enough, I LIKE large infantry units and infantry-themed armies, and I hate 8th Ed WFB. Where does that leave me in your analysis?
Yeah 8th edition is largely a farce - supposedly one focused on unit blocks; but GW then started introducing loads of overpowered monsters, monstrous infantry & monstrous cavalry. (complete with giving two armies overpowered cannons to combat those monsters)

now I'm stuck thinking about "SeaWorld of Darkness". Vampiric dolphins. Mutated, demonic Shamu. The little fish they get thrown as a treat each having tiny human faces.

Thanks a lot. :(
Oooo but there is a Sea World of Darkness already :). Gangrel Aquarii, Rokea (and entire Rokea-related underwater Triat stuff), Ratkin & Bone Gnawer stowing on ships, Lasombra Antiribu corsairs, Mortwight infested ship wrecks from World Wars, Heretic ships being hunted by Hierarchy supported slavers, Technocracy underwater research outposts...There is plenty of dark (and not so dark) stuff out there in the sea!

If you like that stuff, check out the Swedish RPG Kult (it is/was also available in at least English and German). Stay away from the prefabricated adventures, though. There's a lot of seriously sick stuff in there that I wish I could unread.

I've acquired some Kult stuff and looked it over. It seems to be right up my alley, thaaanks! I'll be sure to specifally read the prefabricated as soon as I can make time for it. Are there any ones you would really like to unread?


I sometimes like to question how normal these guys really are/were. .
What's 'normal', anyway ?:>

Athelassan
02-08-2014, 12:36
I can think of very few ideas worse than giving WFB models round bases. Much more than 40K, it's about units in formation, and round bases would completely remove all of that. Given that it requires a higher model count than 40K, the extra time it would take to move all the figures would make the game an interminable chore to play. It would also needlessly **** off just about every existing WFB player.

I can't see any objective advantages to round bases over square ones except that they look slightly nicer when models are standing on their own. But the flip side of that is that models are much harder if not impossible to get to look good en masse. Something that's always bugged me about LotR is that, for all the beautiful models, everyone always looks like a rabble. With a bit of imagination and care it's possible to get a WFB unit looking really tight and impressive as a feature, and that would all but disappear if the models were round-based.

And, let's face it, the people for whom the only reason they're not currently playing WFB is that it's on square bases are so few in number that catering to them at the expense of existing players would be financially suicidal.

BFalcon
02-08-2014, 13:43
I can think of very few ideas worse than giving WFB models round bases. Much more than 40K, it's about units in formation, and round bases would completely remove all of that. Given that it requires a higher model count than 40K, the extra time it would take to move all the figures would make the game an interminable chore to play. It would also needlessly **** off just about every existing WFB player.

I can't see any objective advantages to round bases over square ones except that they look slightly nicer when models are standing on their own. But the flip side of that is that models are much harder if not impossible to get to look good en masse. Something that's always bugged me about LotR is that, for all the beautiful models, everyone always looks like a rabble. With a bit of imagination and care it's possible to get a WFB unit looking really tight and impressive as a feature, and that would all but disappear if the models were round-based.

And, let's face it, the people for whom the only reason they're not currently playing WFB is that it's on square bases are so few in number that catering to them at the expense of existing players would be financially suicidal.

Agreed - I could, however, see an argument for increasing the base size and releasing an adaptor base to help with this... although the more disciplined troops, like Dwarfs, look their best when closely packed like they are now - they actually look like a norse shieldwall than a bunch of individuals - a look that would be utterly destroyed by round bases.

There's also the small matter of the movement trays - would warhammer players, in addition to paying out for all those replacement bases and for the (inevitable) breakages when trying to get the old bases off, be forced to pay out for the LotR movement bases too? I could see many a player - especially those, like the goblin players, who have lots of low-value figures either not bothering to upgrade and sticking with current rules or cashing in and swapping to a new system.

The one thing you NEVER do in business, if you can help it, is to force your customers to decide between changing their existing stake in your products or selling up and going elsewhere... because, most of the time, they'll do the latter and you'll lose 2 lots of sales - one from the now-ebayed army the guy just ditched and the new models he would have spent out on.

The_Real_Chris
03-08-2014, 10:15
It didn't help the Epic 40k (3rd ed, we are now on 4th) release when shops insisted (yes not all shops) that models had to be re-based.

shelfunit.
03-08-2014, 11:36
It didn't help the Epic 40k (3rd ed, we are now on 4th) release when shops insisted (yes not all shops) that models had to be re-based.

Especially considering the rulebooks specifically mentioned this didn't need to occur.

zoggin-eck
03-08-2014, 16:38
There's also the small matter of the movement trays - would warhammer players, in addition to paying out for all those replacement bases and for the (inevitable) breakages when trying to get the old bases off, be forced to pay out for the LotR movement bases too? I could see many a player - especially those, like the goblin players, who have lots of low-value figures either not bothering to upgrade and sticking with current rules or cashing in and swapping to a new system.


Why would people be "forced to pay" for movement bases? Like currently where you can use anything, or like with Lotr's wotr, where they wrote articles in WD and the rulebook on how to make your own? (As if we needed to be shown how to cut and texture a rectangle of cardboard).


Especially considering the rulebooks specifically mentioned this didn't need to occur.

One of the weirdest gaming myths is that models suddenly had to be re-based despite, as you mention, the book saying otherwise (and playtest photos showing them using old models). That many people didn't like the rules (not me!) or repackaged plastics with new prices (OK, I didn't like that part) I can understand, but this weird "you had to rebase!" attitude then and now is annoying.

shelfunit.
03-08-2014, 17:27
One of the weirdest gaming myths is that models suddenly had to be re-based despite, as you mention, the book saying otherwise (and playtest photos showing them using old models). That many people didn't like the rules (not me!) or repackaged plastics with new prices (OK, I didn't like that part) I can understand, but this weird "you had to rebase!" attitude then and now is annoying.

Well, it is hidden away in some corner of the Battles book I think, and, as said above - the GWs refused to allow the non-new bases in to play, which is probably where the myth started.

MusingWarboss
03-08-2014, 17:39
Well, it is hidden away in some corner of the Battles book I think, and, as said above - the GWs refused to allow the non-new bases in to play, which is probably where the myth started.

That's a GW policy on not allowing old model isn't it. They do (or did) the same thing for WFB and 40k too. Because they can't sell the old one anymore they don't want it in the shops.

shelfunit.
03-08-2014, 17:50
That's a GW policy on not allowing old model isn't it. They do (or did) the same thing for WFB and 40k too. Because they can't sell the old one anymore they don't want it in the shops.

Which demonstrates a complete disconnect from the rules writers (at the time) and the orders from selling department.

BFalcon
03-08-2014, 18:01
Why would people be "forced to pay" for movement bases? Like currently where you can use anything, or like with Lotr's wotr, where they wrote articles in WD and the rulebook on how to make your own? (As if we needed to be shown how to cut and texture a rectangle of cardboard).



One of the weirdest gaming myths is that models suddenly had to be re-based despite, as you mention, the book saying otherwise (and playtest photos showing them using old models). That many people didn't like the rules (not me!) or repackaged plastics with new prices (OK, I didn't like that part) I can understand, but this weird "you had to rebase!" attitude then and now is annoying.

You can ALWAYS make your own movement trays - nothing GW makes HAS to be bought in, but most kids (the target audience, remember) are just going to be want to buy the new bases.

And we're talking about IF GW made Warhammer like LotR - given GW's current "must pay through the nose for everything", do you honestly expect them to keep that approach going? Or would you expect them to think "ah well, they love our models so much that they'll all buy new ones all over again!" Or, at the least, expect to sell special movement trays with square bases cut in them, but spaced like the LotR bases?

I was a little cynical of GW a while back, but since then, they've done things and raised prices to a level where even I was taken aback by their attitudes...

I wouldn't put much stock in what happened in the LotR rulebooks - those were a while back and the current crop of newer Warhammer players probably haven't even read it (remember the burn-and-churn approach that GW take right now).

BFalcon
03-08-2014, 18:02
Which demonstrates a complete disconnect from the rules writers (at the time) and the orders from selling department.

I think they reversed that for a while with 40k with the "counts-as" rule, didn't they?

But I still found it disgraceful that an older model would be disallowed, even though it was their product.

shelfunit.
03-08-2014, 21:01
I think they reversed that for a while with 40k with the "counts-as" rule, didn't they?

Not a (28mm) 40k person - what was this?


But I still found it disgraceful that an older model would be disallowed, even though it was their product.

I dread to think how many people have been driven from the GW subsection of the hobby by this attitude, although to this day there are occasional reports that people have been asked to leave a GW shop because the staffer refused to accept certain older GW models had ever been made by GW and were really non-GW...

BFalcon
03-08-2014, 21:17
Not a (28mm) 40k person - what was this?

I dread to think how many people have been driven from the GW subsection of the hobby by this attitude, although to this day there are occasional reports that people have been asked to leave a GW shop because the staffer refused to accept certain older GW models had ever been made by GW and were really non-GW...

Just remembering a phone call to the GW phone line on the first point - I seem to remember a "Sure you can use older minis" line from them...

As for the latter, I do wonder if it's not sailing a little too close to the wind, legally, to do that in the UK - Trading Standards might be interested to learn that they'd neutralised a "playing piece" which was functionally suitable and made by the company in question, so costing (or trying to cost) the customer more money... I'm not legally-trained, but it might be worth someone asking if they've got a relative who is...

As for me, I got old collectors books with some of mine in - if in any doubt, I'd take them with me. :)

Probably the best bet actually - take an old WD with the minis in and they can't dispute it so easily then. :D

MusingWarboss
03-08-2014, 21:19
I dread to think how many people have been driven from the GW subsection of the hobby by this attitude, although to this day there are occasional reports that people have been asked to leave a GW shop because the staffer refused to accept certain older GW models had ever been made by GW and were really non-GW...

Not uncommon with the younger GW staff. Any brought up on say, 40k 3rd styling of models or later seem to cast a suspicious eye on models made in the 80s/90s as the style has changed somewhat. Some of them have never seen any of those models before and probably believe them to be rip-offs. It's not all, you do get those who've done their homework but quite a fair few I've met seem genuinely confused if I've made mention of an old product - or hand-wave it aside as being rubbish despite never having played.

"Newa da betta" is the Mantra there. Shame.

The attitude reminds me of this series:
http://youtu.be/jExYHd1yyWc

MiyamatoMusashi
03-08-2014, 21:42
Just remembering a phone call to the GW phone line on the first point - I seem to remember a "Sure you can use older minis" line from them...

As for the latter, I do wonder if it's not sailing a little too close to the wind, legally, to do that in the UK - Trading Standards might be interested to learn that they'd neutralised a "playing piece" which was functionally suitable and made by the company in question, so costing (or trying to cost) the customer more money... I'm not legally-trained, but it might be worth someone asking if they've got a relative who is...

Well, since you don't pay money to play games in GW stores, I daresay they can have whatever rules they want for that. It's their shop, it's up to them.

That's absolutely not to suggest that it'd be a sensible policy though (certainly not a policy we ever had while I was working there, though it was a long time ago), in fact it'd be pretty stupid to **** off established gamers with existing armies; simply to say that trying to make a legal case out of it seems unlikely to be successful. "I insist that you let me play in your shop with these old models!!!" "Oh really? New rule: no games in the shop at all. Can you find any law saying that we have to run games in our store? Was there a Toy Soldiers Act passed by parliament insisting that we have to let you play games in our store? No? Looks like you're **** out of luck then."

Again: want to make it clear that I'm not saying it'd be a good policy, it'd be a very bad one. (Disallowing non-GW models is one thing, but old GW models is something else entirely). Only that invoking legal action to play wargames isn't going to go very far. You can still use the models - just play at home or in a club or your FLGS or something. (After all, if a shop is going to give you attitude like that, why would you want to play there anyway?)

BFalcon
03-08-2014, 22:09
Well, since you don't pay money to play games in GW stores, I daresay they can have whatever rules they want for that. It's their shop, it's up to them.

That's absolutely not to suggest that it'd be a sensible policy though (certainly not a policy we ever had while I was working there, though it was a long time ago), in fact it'd be pretty stupid to **** off established gamers with existing armies; simply to say that trying to make a legal case out of it seems unlikely to be successful. "I insist that you let me play in your shop with these old models!!!" "Oh really? New rule: no games in the shop at all. Can you find any law saying that we have to run games in our store? Was there a Toy Soldiers Act passed by parliament insisting that we have to let you play games in our store? No? Looks like you're **** out of luck then."

Again: want to make it clear that I'm not saying it'd be a good policy, it'd be a very bad one. (Disallowing non-GW models is one thing, but old GW models is something else entirely). Only that invoking legal action to play wargames isn't going to go very far. You can still use the models - just play at home or in a club or your FLGS or something. (After all, if a shop is going to give you attitude like that, why would you want to play there anyway?)

Yeah good point... just really ticks me off when they can do that...

Not that I've ever lived close enough to a GW store to actually manage to play in one... only ever actually been in a couple in my life (the rest were FLGS)

itcamefromthedeep
03-08-2014, 22:42
Games played in a GW are, among other things, advertisement for a product. I can see how a company would make the mistake of restricting play to models the company can sell to people.

---

Looney tunes policy could be seen as the death knell of a company, but not so much in this case. The lunacy has been going on for a long time.

Athelassan
04-08-2014, 04:08
Looney tunes policy could be seen as the death knell of a company, but not so much in this case. The lunacy has been going on for a long time.

I think the death knell has been rung so many times the bellringer has registered disabled with RSI, but the company persists in refusing to give up the ghost, possessed of an unholy mockery of its former life even as bits wither, fall off and decompose to the apparent obliviousness of the directing intelligence - no, not intelligence, more a sort of pure motivating force of stubbornness and bloody-mindedness. Meanwhile the wake-up call has been made by four separate receptionists, several alarm clocks have been ringing for some time, and a team is battering at the hotel door, but there's no response from within.

Herzlos
04-08-2014, 09:37
Games played in a GW are, among other things, advertisement for a product. I can see how a company would make the mistake of restricting play to models the company can sell to people.

I think there's some value in displaying the longevity; "yes the minis are expensive, but they can be used forever. See that guy there? Some of the mini's he's using are nearly 30 years old now, and he's still using them. That's value for money right there!".

BFalcon
04-08-2014, 11:25
I think there's some value in displaying the longevity; "yes the minis are expensive, but they can be used forever. See that guy there? Some of the mini's he's using are nearly 30 years old now, and he's still using them. That's value for money right there!".

Precisely - saying "sorry, but in two or three years' time, we're going to neutralise all those 100's of currency's worth of minis so you'll have to start all over again" isn't exactly helping sales - even 10 years is a short time when you stop and think...

Spending on a hobby should consider a few things: 1) Value for money - can you buy in without breaking the bank doing so... this amount is different for everyone. 2) Life Expectancy: Will the items still be useable in a few years' time? If so, then they're worth more to you than if someone's going to wipe them out and force you to buy new (paints wearing out would be under this header too). 3) End worth: When you decide to retire from the hobby, will the items still retain their worth, or will you have spent all that money for nothing?

I mean: I used to race remote control (RC) cars. The car (a 2nd hand Tamiya TL-01 chassis with full hop-up parts) cost me around £35 and the batteries, charger and sundries took the total up to around £80. If I'd bought new, you could have added around £50 onto that. I had to buy in the occasional wishbone (usually after skidding into a wall or bench, often after a "love tap" from another car, sometimes from taking a corner too quickly) and another battery after my first NiCad wore out. I also had to pay per club meeting, to help to pay for the hall. At the end, had I cashed in, I'd have gotten around 70% to 80% of my initial money back - partly due to the chassis being retired from production and people wanting the hop-ups (upgrades, like the aluminium lower wishbones mine has). During that time, I also bought a Schumacher Mission Carbon, 2nd hand, for around £70 (for just the chassis, no electronics). I could easily get my money back on the chassis even now, since it's still a very light and competitive chassis... So, the hobby had a moderate buy-in, a low-to-medium maintenance cost and a pretty good return if I'd sold my gear.

Compare that to GW where I've spent £100's on plastics alone, which are probably worth a fraction of the amount now and you get some idea of just how slippery that slope is, when you start artificially shortening the lifespan of your products. The buy-in is high, the maintenance is moderate (paints (to replace worn-out paint-jobs - this is lower if you avoid GW), replacement parts to replace breakages, etc), but a pretty terrible return when you leave (you might get 10% to 20% of your buy-in, assuming you've been in the hobby for more than a few years) and this just highlights why you just can't afford to give the impression that your models have a life expectancy.

I've got some Orc Raiders somewhere in here and I'd be more than happy to use them as Kommandos or something... if someone then turned around and told me they weren't GW, I would NOT be happy... likewise if I'd used my metal Eldar Guardians (typically, I bought the ones with the lasguns, which is my usual luck...) in an eldar force.

As a sidenote, this is one reason why historical wargaming is popular - you can use warships that have been around since the 60's in some cases and they're still as valid as the day they were made... even if they are low-detail by today's standards. Even the 1/72 Airfix models you made as a kid back in the 80's is still useable as a wargaming piece, provided you didn't give into temptation and play with them. GW needs to be trying to neutralise that advantage, moreso now with the high-profile nature of WWI and WWII with the anniversary of both this year (100 years since the start of WWI, September sees the 75th anniversary of the start of WWII). That high profile may see more kids being interested in picking up wargames of a historical nature.

Trasvi
05-08-2014, 10:19
I think there's some value in displaying the longevity; "yes the minis are expensive, but they can be used forever. See that guy there? Some of the mini's he's using are nearly 30 years old now, and he's still using them. That's value for money right there!".

The explanation that makes sense is that GW uses in-store games/displays as a medium to generate interest and sell models. They are under no obligation to let you play in store: the reason that they do is to drive sales. They want new/potential customers to see something on the tabletop, say "that's wicked! I want 3!" and walk out with a lighter wallet. They *DON'T* want customers to see something on the table and be disappointed that they can't get it. You won't see games of Warmachine, you won't see older models in the White Dwarf or on shelves, and if they can help it you won't play with older models. While your point about the longevity of models definitely is a positive selling point, I think it is minor enough that it is outweighed by the ability to actually sell what you're demonstrating, as opposed to an older/newer version of it.

That of course should be tempered against annoying existing customers wherever possible, but you can understand that those are two separate considerations. When many GW miniatures have been around for longer than the employees of the store have been alive, its no wonder that occasionally they might get confused and be a little too zealous at enforcing the rules and ignoring common sense.

Athelassan
05-08-2014, 12:26
The explanation that makes sense is that GW uses in-store games/displays as a medium to generate interest and sell models. They are under no obligation to let you play in store: the reason that they do is to drive sales. They want new/potential customers to see something on the tabletop, say "that's wicked! I want 3!" and walk out with a lighter wallet. They *DON'T* want customers to see something on the table and be disappointed that they can't get it. You won't see games of Warmachine, you won't see older models in the White Dwarf or on shelves, and if they can help it you won't play with older models. While your point about the longevity of models definitely is a positive selling point, I think it is minor enough that it is outweighed by the ability to actually sell what you're demonstrating, as opposed to an older/newer version of it.

That of course should be tempered against annoying existing customers wherever possible, but you can understand that those are two separate considerations. When many GW miniatures have been around for longer than the employees of the store have been alive, its no wonder that occasionally they might get confused and be a little too zealous at enforcing the rules and ignoring common sense.

Of course, when I first encountered GW, and for several years thereafter, you could still acquire pretty much whatever older model you wanted from mail order provided they still had the mould (and that you could identify it for them - tracking down the codes wasn't always easy). So if you saw someone playing with older models and thought they were cool, you could still buy them.

In that respect things have actually gone massively backward; in fact the dumbing-down/removal of the mail order service was a major factor in my drifting away from GW in the first place.

HelloKitty
05-08-2014, 16:02
The explanation that makes sense is that GW uses in-store games/displays as a medium to generate interest and sell models. They are under no obligation to let you play in store: the reason that they do is to drive sales. They want new/potential customers to see something on the tabletop, say "that's wicked! I want 3!" and walk out with a lighter wallet. They *DON'T* want customers to see something on the table and be disappointed that they can't get it. You won't see games of Warmachine, you won't see older models in the White Dwarf or on shelves, and if they can help it you won't play with older models. While your point about the longevity of models definitely is a positive selling point, I think it is minor enough that it is outweighed by the ability to actually sell what you're demonstrating, as opposed to an older/newer version of it.

That of course should be tempered against annoying existing customers wherever possible, but you can understand that those are two separate considerations. When many GW miniatures have been around for longer than the employees of the store have been alive, its no wonder that occasionally they might get confused and be a little too zealous at enforcing the rules and ignoring common sense.

This is also dictated by the particular manager of the store. Our first GW manager wouldn't let you use anything that he couldn't sell you period. No forge world, no older models, definitely no models not citadel. Our current manager lets you use anything you want as long as it was citadel / GW related, even if its 20 years old.

Noble Korhedron
05-08-2014, 18:55
This is also dictated by the particular manager of the store. Our first GW manager wouldn't let you use anything that he couldn't sell you period. No forge world, no older models, definitely no models not citadel. Our current manager lets you use anything you want as long as it was citadel / GW related, even if its 20 years old.Well good for your current manager then!! :D

BFalcon
05-08-2014, 19:33
This is also dictated by the particular manager of the store. Our first GW manager wouldn't let you use anything that he couldn't sell you period. No forge world, no older models, definitely no models not citadel. Our current manager lets you use anything you want as long as it was citadel / GW related, even if its 20 years old.

No FW - I bet that made him popular with his bosses...

I don't mind GW-only, that makes sense, but not the older models, that's just annoying - so good on your current manager... :)

Inquisitor Kallus
05-08-2014, 20:04
Precisely - saying "sorry, but in two or three years' time, we're going to neutralise all those 100's of currency's worth of minis so you'll have to start all over again" isn't exactly helping sales

Whoa whoa, hold up a minute there cowboy. Youve just said talking about nullifying models within 2-3 years but were talking about modells from the 80's-90's that are OOP. Which is it? The exagerration doesnt help and quite frankly having really old models can be a double edged sword.

'Oh thats so cool, can I get that?'
'Sorry Jimmy, we dont make that anymore.'
:(

EBAY!!

'We have something thats very similar/newer version'
'But I want that one'

The store needs to promote stuff, not show off old models that you cant get anymore.

@BFalcon:' No FW - I bet that made him popular with his bosses...'

It probably did because people werent spending lots of cash there and not in his store. FW has always been a bone of contention with some, so far as to say one senior H/O staff member I know of called them 'Cowboys'. I am a big advocate of FW and love the stuff but I once once accused of saying that you should get FW over GW stuff to a customer. It was crap because I didnt and told him so., but anyway.

People consistently using the services and facilities of the store whilst not buying new models (read people turning up with the same army with nothing new for goodness knows only how long) are not contributing to the store. If the models are decades old and out of production that is worse as you cant even 'promote' them t somebody who thinks theyre cool. If you have older models BFalcon why do you see it necessary to make a point by tring to show up with them at a store and 'get one over' on them? If theyre cool with it then thats fine, I used to love looking at old stuff people bought in myself.

Reinholt
05-08-2014, 20:12
People consistently using the services and facilities of the store whilst not buying new models (read people turning up with the same army with nothing new for goodness knows only how long) are not contributing to the store. If the models are decades old and out of production that is worse as you cant even 'promote' them t somebody who thinks theyre cool. If you have older models BFalcon why do you see it necessary to make a point by tring to show up with them at a store and 'get one over' on them? If theyre cool with it then thats fine, I used to love looking at old stuff people bought in myself.

Wrong question.

The correct question is not "are they contributing to the store", but rather, "are they contributing to GW's bottom line"?

If the store causes them to purchase things they otherwise would not / makes the community larger than it otherwise would be / adds customers that would otherwise not exist, then the store is a net benefit (so long as those effects are larger than the store expenses) even if said things are not being purchased at the store itself. This is like advertising on TV, but then saying because the customer went to your store and bought the item instead of going to the website, which was on the ad, your ad was a net loss and added nothing. All that matters is sales; channel is irrelevant.

GW believing they are a retailer instead of a producer is what causes this; it is a core misunderstanding of what business they are in.

Edit: put another way, GW could exist without the retail chain but the retail chain could not exist without GW.

Inquisitor Kallus
05-08-2014, 20:40
Wrong question.

The correct question is not "are they contributing to the store", but rather, "are they contributing to GW's bottom line"?
.

It's the correct question, contributing to the store in that way is also contributing to GW as a whole. To the store because if it is under performing it gets closed or the manager gets fired, he probably doesnt want that. Im not saying that other factors dont contribute to this. Channel is also relevant when there is a difference in the amount of money they take from those paticular channels, what advantages they get from them and how much they're paying out to keep them going. Ironically the retail side is the biggest drain on money but also helps to bring people in, double edged sword that one.

When I ran a store this didnt concern me as it was more important people had fun, even with old minis (I always allowed FW), so long as they didn't take the proverbial when it came to having fun....

GW could exist without the retail stores, but im pretty sure it would be a shadow of its former self and indeed would probably suffer far more in the UK because of it. Its different in America. I also feel that without going public and all the other palaava associated with it that the company would probably be pushed back at least 10 years in terms of where the miniature quality is at (e.g. no Baneblades, Flyers, lower quality etc. This tends to vary from person to person). However I hope that they now look at whats been and gone and sort themselves out a bit, theyre not dead yet but its going to be difficult to turn it around.

Edit: Apologies for the poor spelling and awful wording? Severe tiredness and pharmaceutical drugs have made me a bit incoherent and unable to concentrate fully recently

itcamefromthedeep
05-08-2014, 21:00
Channel shouldn't matter, but it does to GW.

---

Now, where's that Extra Credits video on microtransactions...

EDIT: Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI

The real gold is from 2:20 to 3:05. Such as:
"How many players who aren't paying me do you expect me to buy [table space] for?"
"As many as you can get."

Athelassan
05-08-2014, 22:04
It probably did because people werent spending lots of cash there and not in his store. FW has always been a bone of contention with some, so far as to say one senior H/O staff member I know of called them 'Cowboys'. I am a big advocate of FW and love the stuff but I once once accused of saying that you should get FW over GW stuff to a customer. It was crap because I didnt and told him so., but anyway.
Which is ridiculous anyway. It's still a GW product, just not Citadel. GW still get all the money. Madness.

If you have older models BFalcon why do you see it necessary to make a point by tring to show up with them at a store and 'get one over' on them? If theyre cool with it then thats fine, I used to love looking at old stuff people bought in myself.
It's not necessarily about trying to make a point or get one over on anyone. I for one just prefer a lot of the older models and as a result (a) would rather use them (b) haven't bought some of the newer models. It would be annoying to be prohibited from doing so and told, for instance, I can't use the old 4th ed metal state troops and have to use plastic monkeyfaces instead. There's a reason I haven't bought them, after all.

MusingWarboss
05-08-2014, 22:18
Which is ridiculous anyway. It's still a GW product, just not Citadel. GW still get all the money. Madness.

Absolutely, complete madness. However this is from the company that saw its own smaller games as competition for its own larger games, so its no surprise it'd see its own smaller mini manufacturing brand as competition to its own larger mini manufacturing brand.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in five years, assuming GW is still here as we know it now, that Forgeworld has been absorbed into Citadel and Warhammer has been scrapped for taking money and players away from 40k.

ColShaw
05-08-2014, 22:29
Veterans with armies full of old models certainly do contribute to the hobby; they help maintain the community, encourage new players, and provide an example of what can be achieved with months or years of dedicated collecting. The idea that people who aren't buying something right this minute are not helping support GW is part of what is wrong with GW's mindset.

Katastrophe
06-08-2014, 03:52
Veterans with armies full of old models certainly do contribute to the hobby; they help maintain the community, encourage new players, and provide an example of what can be achieved with months or years of dedicated collecting. The idea that people who aren't buying something right this minute are not helping support GW is part of what is wrong with GW's mindset.

This x10. Personally there is very little that I buy as I was able to get all I wanted during the Warstore boxed army deals. But, when I am at a shop I encourage new players and explain what they should be investing in. I can field varied forces and play pick up games of every size, once again encouraging newer players. When the Annapolis Maryland store essentially went single guy, I basically stopped showing up for what used to be weekday game nights, open table games and some Saturday games. Then there was nothing for those young kids, Naval Academy Cadets and observers to watch and be drawn into interest.

As for playing with old models, I think one should be able to play with the models they like. I'm playing for my own enjoyment. My blood angels army is composed almost entirely of old Mark 3 and 4 marines with dark angel capes because I like those models rather than anything they have release since.

ehlijen
06-08-2014, 07:34
Veterans with armies full of old models certainly do contribute to the hobby; they help maintain the community, encourage new players, and provide an example of what can be achieved with months or years of dedicated collecting. The idea that people who aren't buying something right this minute are not helping support GW is part of what is wrong with GW's mindset.

It must be admitted that veterans that don't buy at all are indeed not supporting GW much. But I don't think those veterans would have much interest in GW anymore anyway.

I think GW are close to having only two kinds of customers left: fresh meat/newcomers they will burn and churn, and diehard veterans that are rich enough to keep buying. Alienating this last group of true fans is something I don't think they can afford.

Darnok
06-08-2014, 07:43
No FW - I bet that made him popular with his bosses...

Well, it is pretty standard GW store practice for over a decade now. For one, GW stores don't sell FW models (they tend to sell the books though, which makes it a bit more :wtf: really). This doesn't make it better, but it shows that it isn't up to the manager, but the company line.

Apart from that I guess some store managers are pretty happy to not have to deal with any rules disputes around FW "legality". Just check our very own forums and you can see how worked up people can get over that topic - at least I would not like to have such heated debates in a store.


Wrong question.

The correct question is not "are they contributing to the store", but rather, "are they contributing to GW's bottom line"?

From the store managers point of view it is the correct question: all they care about is the turn-over of their store. If they don't hit their targets, they get the boot.

Again, I don't think this is a sane approach. I remember you calling things like this "penny smart, but dollar stupid". And it is spot on.

jtrowell
06-08-2014, 08:44
It must be admitted that veterans that don't buy at all are indeed not supporting GW much. (...)


Not exactly true , a veteran that does not buy anymore but that still play the game(s) *is* supporting GW in several ways.

The main one is that it's a social hobby, and you need an opponent to play against, and knowing a veteran who already have an army and know the rules can make the difference for a new player between starting his own 40k or Fantasy army to play against his veteran friend (or even the veteran stranger that he met at a club or store) instead of chosing to start Infinity/warmahordes/malifaux/Warpath because that's what others were playing at the club/store

And note that in turn the new player might renew the veteran interest in the game and make him into a buyer again, probably starting with the rules and codex to get up-to-date, then maybe one model or two, and so on ...

Of course even in this situation there is still the problem of the prices ... :rolleyes:

Bloodknight
06-08-2014, 10:10
From the store managers point of view it is the correct question: all they care about is the turn-over of their store. If they don't hit their targets, they get the boot.

Indeed.
I quote from the facebook page of GW Vienna I:

Die Nachschubversorgung an der Front wird von den Xenos bedroht, darum braucht der Imperator jetzt Eure HILFE!
Wir ersuchen Euch, Eure Mailorder bei uns in Eurem Lieblingshobbycenter an der
Front zu bestellen und nicht von Eurem Heimatplanet aus. Damit würdet ihr uns einen großen Gefallen tun und hättet die Folgenden Vorteile. Vielen Dank!
+ DU hilfst dabei direkt deinem Lieblingshobbycenter
+ Direkter Support und Hilfe bei Problemen
+ Beratung & Hilfe bei der Auswahl der Produkte durch die Mitarbeiter
+ Bestellvorgang kann direkt von den Mitarbeitern übernommen werden
+ Anruf bei Eintreffen der Lieferung im Laden
+ Lagerung der Bestellung direkt im Laden (kein Postweg)
+ Keine Versandkosten
+ Barzahlung möglich
+ Teilnahme an der coolen VERLOSUNG


It's not really worth going to google translate with it:
Basically it says "please order your stuff at our store and not from home, you'd be doing us a great favor". Or, if you want to look at it more cynically: "please buy here or we'll get fired".
The bullet points are just "advantages" that you have as a customer if you buy there.
It's a little telling that they spelled Help in capital letters, isn't it? ;).

BFalcon
06-08-2014, 14:55
Whoa whoa, hold up a minute there cowboy. Youve just said talking about nullifying models within 2-3 years but were talking about modells from the 80's-90's that are OOP. Which is it? The exagerration doesnt help and quite frankly having really old models can be a double edged sword.

'Oh thats so cool, can I get that?'
'Sorry Jimmy, we dont make that anymore.'
:(

EBAY!!

'We have something thats very similar/newer version'
'But I want that one'

The store needs to promote stuff, not show off old models that you cant get anymore.

@BFalcon:' No FW - I bet that made him popular with his bosses...'

It probably did because people werent spending lots of cash there and not in his store. FW has always been a bone of contention with some, so far as to say one senior H/O staff member I know of called them 'Cowboys'. I am a big advocate of FW and love the stuff but I once once accused of saying that you should get FW over GW stuff to a customer. It was crap because I didnt and told him so., but anyway.

People consistently using the services and facilities of the store whilst not buying new models (read people turning up with the same army with nothing new for goodness knows only how long) are not contributing to the store. If the models are decades old and out of production that is worse as you cant even 'promote' them t somebody who thinks theyre cool. If you have older models BFalcon why do you see it necessary to make a point by tring to show up with them at a store and 'get one over' on them? If theyre cool with it then thats fine, I used to love looking at old stuff people bought in myself.

Because, at the speed at which GW is moving to make new miniatures and render old ones obsolete, you can expect replacements for any given models in around 5 years at the outside.. and if it was policy to only allow models you can buy at the store, any existing models of that type would suddenly be rendered "unwanted" by the store staff.

And I don't make a point of it - I already said that I don't have a store nearby - but there are some models I love and would love to have as part of my force... if I'd turned up with an army list prepared and was told that part of my force isn't viable, I would NOT be happy.

And, yes they are contributing to the store - they're helping to make the store look busy and so, therefore, something to be involved in. Those gamers are also sources of independent advice for the customers, as opposed to the staff, who are often perceived as being willing to sell you anything you can afford, as opposed to what you need... even if they don't have the latest models, they are still making the place look lively. Compare that to an empty store with a bored staff member sitting behind the counter, having dusted for the 20th time that day just for something to do and you can get the idea.

As for no FW? FW and GW are the same company, at the end of the day... except FW stuff (traditionally) costs more, making their turnover look much more healthy (and I suspect brings in just as much profit).

Even if a customer decides they want that model - so they arrange to buy it 2nd hand, knowing they can use it in-store (having seen it used) - the guy he bought it off now has the cash to go buy something new.. so a sale is still generated.

This "a guy coming in is the only way we'll get a sale" idea that you and GW have is ludicrous - as a business, I don't care WHO buys the item, as long as the money comes my way ideally, or the way of the company otherwise. 2nd hand sales of old minis puts cash into the hands of existing customers... in some ways, that's a much better prospect for me, since they're already hooked and are far more likely, if they're selling at the store, to want to spend that money immediately... meaning I can target that guy who just sold them with something I know he wants (I've seen the armies he's been bringing in) and can point out how much it would benefit his own army - you can't do that with a new guy off the street.

BFalcon
06-08-2014, 15:00
Well, it is pretty standard GW store practice for over a decade now. For one, GW stores don't sell FW models (they tend to sell the books though, which makes it a bit more :wtf: really). This doesn't make it better, but it shows that it isn't up to the manager, but the company line.

Apart from that I guess some store managers are pretty happy to not have to deal with any rules disputes around FW "legality". Just check our very own forums and you can see how worked up people can get over that topic - at least I would not like to have such heated debates in a store.



From the store managers point of view it is the correct question: all they care about is the turn-over of their store. If they don't hit their targets, they get the boot.

Again, I don't think this is a sane approach. I remember you calling things like this "penny smart, but dollar stupid". And it is spot on.

I really don't know why they didn't start to sell FW in stores, tbh - it would make sense and they models look stunning...

And, put a FW Thunderhawk on display in every store and you'll probably sell more of them (eventually) and it's something to drool over in the meantime. Even a few of the resin and etched brass kits for enhancing the Rhino and Landraider kits would be a good thing - you could sell them as they buy the kits then...

TheFang
06-08-2014, 16:53
I really don't know why they didn't start to sell FW in stores, tbh - it would make sense and they models look stunning...


When FW first came out they didn't have the capability to fully stock all the retail stores with even a small range. Kids couldn't assemble the resin leading to lots of complaints and returns when they did buy it. Doing it mail order didn't stretch capacity and sticking to experienced modellers kept the complaints down. A few stores did stock limited FW. Oxford Street and a few others with large tourist footfall had some in. Mostly the material and the slow manufacture in the early days meant FW wasn't an attractive item for the retail chain.

Inquisitor Kallus
06-08-2014, 16:54
I really don't know why they didn't start to sell FW in stores, tbh - it would make sense and they models look stunning...

And, put a FW Thunderhawk on display in every store and you'll probably sell more of them (eventually) and it's something to drool over in the meantime. Even a few of the resin and etched brass kits for enhancing the Rhino and Landraider kits would be a good thing - you could sell them as they buy the kits then...

Health and Safety.....

Lets get that resin dust flowing kids, yeah, breathe it in deeply...

'Hey Dad, look, its a Thunderhawk. But why is it flapping its wings like that?'
'Well Jimmy thats the heat coming from the cabinet lights, it makes the wings all floppy.'
'Gee Dad..'

Also stock

On your obsolete models thing, you were talking about models decades old, thats a little different to just recently changed. I dont recall hearing of any store that did that, though the models youre talking about like 20+ years old, well....

This "a guy coming in is the only way we'll get a sale" idea that you and GW have is ludicrous - as a business, I don't care WHO buys the item, as long as the money comes my way ideally, or the way of the company otherwise. 2nd hand sales of old minis puts cash into the hands of existing customers... in some ways, that's a much better prospect for me, since they're already hooked and are far more likely, if they're selling at the store, to want to spend that money immediately... meaning I can target that guy who just sold them with something I know he wants (I've seen the armies he's been bringing in) and can point out how much it would benefit his own army - you can't do that with a new guy off the street.

Ludicrous? Read it as a store manager, if someone doesnt come in then you dont make sales for your store. Seriously, I dont know how you can even think otherwise. Unless of course youre performing some sort of Schroedigners Cat style experiment or altering the fabric of the Space Time continuum (Is that you Doctor Who?). So , Monty the Manager doesnt get people coming into his store, apart from the same old veterans who dont buy anything new as 'the old stuff is da best' . Oh no, hes not getting sales. Along comes Arthur the Area Manager.
'Hello Monty, it seems you havent been selling things. Im sorry, we have to close the store.'
Sad Face, much cry, all gone.

Hyperbole but with a basis firmly set in reality.
If a store cant hit targets and sustain itself it is closed. People lose jobs. The Vets dont care as they can go somewhere else to play, they might moan a bit if they have to pay at a club because 'what they had before' was free. I kow of this kind of thing happening, i've seen and heard it, but im not saying all Vets are like it, just a minority. Kind of like those who go into a store with an agenda to get one over on the staff there...

I dont see it that way myself in absolutes and would happily allow FW and older models into the store, but some felt it was essentially a threat, which in a way it is to a small degree (People just purchasing armies from FW and old armies off e-bay). We even had a lead up to a WD birthday or something I cant remember exactly now where we spoke to some of the older vets and they brought in old books (RoC) and models. We put them in the cabinet and quite a few collectors and gamers loved it

I know of staff (mostly managers) who used to make or enforce rules in the store with no explanation and would not explain themselves on principle ('No im not going to keep explaining why we do it, it's just how it is'). They acted like jerks, I called some of them out at times and indeed got one of my old managers moved because of his crappy behaviour. He was then subsequently 'let go'. Guy was an egotistical maniac. Ironically GW stores and indeed the company tedns to be judged on the basis of a few individuals within it.Lets call my old manager 'Jon'. A number of people said to my face that they would not come in anymore if 'Jon' was in that day.

Dont for one second feel that im trying to defend GWs actions and the like, im just letting you know the facts, of how it is. I know both sides of the 'Eye of Terror' and have seen things as both a customer and a staff member. On these forums I will tend to tell people if they have said something factually wrong about GW, most dont like it because, lets face it, people really dont like to be told they're wrong. Most will then tend to try to justify it in some way or another. I can't tell you about how GW operate much at this precise moment in time, only when I was there working and from what I learned from others who were there before. Theres a lot of things they do that for one reason or another people dont like and they go completely over the top with their reactions. On these forums I recall one individual exclaiming how GW are prejudiced (or something very similar, it may have been something about years of abuse, I don't recall the exact wording used) against women because they hadn't made any new Sisters of Battle. Please read it again, then once more just so it sinks in. This is the kind of thing that some people feel. And that resentment builds up.

shelfunit.
06-08-2014, 17:49
'Hey Dad, look, its a Thunderhawk. But why is it flapping its wings like that?'
'Well Jimmy thats the heat coming from the cabinet lights, it makes the wings all floppy.'
'Gee Dad..'

Overall I agree with your post - but the above? FC went in those cabinets as well, with similar (but let's be honest, far, far worse) problems than FW resin.

Athelassan
06-08-2014, 18:34
Ludicrous? Read it as a store manager, if someone doesnt come in then you dont make sales for your store. Seriously, I dont know how you can even think otherwise. Unless of course youre performing some sort of Schroedigners Cat style experiment or altering the fabric of the Space Time continuum (Is that you Doctor Who?). So , Monty the Manager doesnt get people coming into his store, apart from the same old veterans who dont buy anything new as 'the old stuff is da best' . Oh no, hes not getting sales. Along comes Arthur the Area Manager.
'Hello Monty, it seems you havent been selling things. Im sorry, we have to close the store.'
Sad Face, much cry, all gone.

Hyperbole but with a basis firmly set in reality.
If a store cant hit targets and sustain itself it is closed. People lose jobs. The Vets dont care as they can go somewhere else to play, they might moan a bit if they have to pay at a club because 'what they had before' was free. I kow of this kind of thing happening, i've seen and heard it, but im not saying all Vets are like it, just a minority. Kind of like those who go into a store with an agenda to get one over on the staff there...

Well, this is part of the issue, I think. GW use their shops as a marketing tool and manage them in a command-and-control fashion, but expect them to operate like a franchise or one-man-band. The value added to the business by the presence of a store isn't entirely reflected in what plastic and currency actually changes hands across that till. They're as much showrooms as retail outlets. Even if someone spots a tasty-looking model in the shop then orders it from an online discounter, that money still gets back to GW - not as much of it as if they'd bought it through the shop, but you can't help that really. If it helps to bring new people into the hobby who then order online, that store's bringing in money. The value of a store isn't entirely down to its bottom line and can't always be easily assessed by bean-counters.

I have a lot of sympathy with the store managers in general, because it must be a nightmare. On the one hand you have GW insisting you sell as much as possible, but on the other hand your freedom in actually running the store is severely curtailed by central management, the products you're actually allowed to stock are sharply limited, Sales are insisting you push the latest turkey that nobody wants to buy, which limits your approach to customer service, and building relationships with customers who actually have substantial disposable income is almost actively discouraged.

Of course, some managers are still ******s, but that's par for the course when dealing with people. I'm also often quite surprised at how ignorant managers are at what's going on elsewhere in the hobby - not just the wargames hobby in general, because we all know about that, but GW itself. The old "managers don't know the release schedule" has been a running joke for years, but there have been times I've mentioned a product that's been recently released and they've stared at me blankly, or admitted they haven't seen/heard of it. It even happened once with a BL book they actually had in stock in that very shop.

I know everything was better back in the day, but I can't help but contrast my experiences with the Great Spined Dragon in my early teens with the Carmine Dragon recently. When I were a nipper, I went into a shop to hang out, paint or whatever, as you did in those days, and got chatting to one of the staff about - I think the relatively new-at-the-time Wood Elf Forest Dragon and monsters in general. He then waxed lyrical about the Great Spined Dragon, which was already about ten-fifteen years old at that point iirc, went and got a catalogue to show me the figure, basically talked me into wanting one. I didn't have the money at the time so didn't get it, but a few months later was travelling through Nottingham, we stopped in Lenton and got one cast up while-you-wait (I think my parents bought it for me as a reward gift or something). Dragon acquired, I went back to the original shop, and the staff were all over it like a cheap suit, helped me put it together, gave me advice on how to do the wings and to paint it, then when I brought it back in painted gave it pride of place in the evening game, and so on.

None of the purchase price of that dragon would have showed up on the store's account, but it was them who effectively made the sale, and what's more got me back into the store on two further occasions when I had the opportunity to spend (and probably did spend) more money, on paints if nothing else. If it hadn't been for that store, I almost certainly would never have bought it, might well never have learned of its existence, and both I and GW would be the poorer for it. That sort of thing probably happens (or at least used to happen) all the time.

A couple of years ago I wandered into a (different) store to buy... Storm of Magic, I think, and again we got talking about dragons. I mentioned the Carmine Dragon, which I'd seen online and fancied very much, and the guy hadn't heard of it. He'd heard of the GSD, vaguely, but didn't remember it. I couldn't have bought either of them in the store even if I'd discovered them independently and had the cash available. Nul points.

Scaryscarymushroom
06-08-2014, 19:30
GW needs to stop treating its shops like a competitor to its website. For that matter, they should rethink their relationship to independent stores, too. For years now I've thought about how hard it would be to run a shop selling only GW products, in part because the shop would compete directly with GW for sales. And Marketing would be challenging, and you can't really sell online, and your product range would be smaller than what is offered online.

BFalcon
06-08-2014, 19:42
Health and Safety.....

Lets get that resin dust flowing kids, yeah, breathe it in deeply...

'Hey Dad, look, its a Thunderhawk. But why is it flapping its wings like that?'
'Well Jimmy thats the heat coming from the cabinet lights, it makes the wings all floppy.'
'Gee Dad..'

Also stock

On your obsolete models thing, you were talking about models decades old, thats a little different to just recently changed. I dont recall hearing of any store that did that, though the models youre talking about like 20+ years old, well....

This "a guy coming in is the only way we'll get a sale" idea that you and GW have is ludicrous - as a business, I don't care WHO buys the item, as long as the money comes my way ideally, or the way of the company otherwise. 2nd hand sales of old minis puts cash into the hands of existing customers... in some ways, that's a much better prospect for me, since they're already hooked and are far more likely, if they're selling at the store, to want to spend that money immediately... meaning I can target that guy who just sold them with something I know he wants (I've seen the armies he's been bringing in) and can point out how much it would benefit his own army - you can't do that with a new guy off the street.

Ludicrous? Read it as a store manager, if someone doesnt come in then you dont make sales for your store. Seriously, I dont know how you can even think otherwise. Unless of course youre performing some sort of Schroedigners Cat style experiment or altering the fabric of the Space Time continuum (Is that you Doctor Who?). So , Monty the Manager doesnt get people coming into his store, apart from the same old veterans who dont buy anything new as 'the old stuff is da best' . Oh no, hes not getting sales. Along comes Arthur the Area Manager.
'Hello Monty, it seems you havent been selling things. Im sorry, we have to close the store.'
Sad Face, much cry, all gone.

Hyperbole but with a basis firmly set in reality.
If a store cant hit targets and sustain itself it is closed. People lose jobs. The Vets dont care as they can go somewhere else to play, they might moan a bit if they have to pay at a club because 'what they had before' was free. I kow of this kind of thing happening, i've seen and heard it, but im not saying all Vets are like it, just a minority. Kind of like those who go into a store with an agenda to get one over on the staff there...

I dont see it that way myself in absolutes and would happily allow FW and older models into the store, but some felt it was essentially a threat, which in a way it is to a small degree (People just purchasing armies from FW and old armies off e-bay). We even had a lead up to a WD birthday or something I cant remember exactly now where we spoke to some of the older vets and they brought in old books (RoC) and models. We put them in the cabinet and quite a few collectors and gamers loved it

I know of staff (mostly managers) who used to make or enforce rules in the store with no explanation and would not explain themselves on principle ('No im not going to keep explaining why we do it, it's just how it is'). They acted like jerks, I called some of them out at times and indeed got one of my old managers moved because of his crappy behaviour. He was then subsequently 'let go'. Guy was an egotistical maniac. Ironically GW stores and indeed the company tedns to be judged on the basis of a few individuals within it.Lets call my old manager 'Jon'. A number of people said to my face that they would not come in anymore if 'Jon' was in that day.

Dont for one second feel that im trying to defend GWs actions and the like, im just letting you know the facts, of how it is. I know both sides of the 'Eye of Terror' and have seen things as both a customer and a staff member. On these forums I will tend to tell people if they have said something factually wrong about GW, most dont like it because, lets face it, people really dont like to be told they're wrong. Most will then tend to try to justify it in some way or another. I can't tell you about how GW operate much at this precise moment in time, only when I was there working and from what I learned from others who were there before. Theres a lot of things they do that for one reason or another people dont like and they go completely over the top with their reactions. On these forums I recall one individual exclaiming how GW are prejudiced (or something very similar, it may have been something about years of abuse, I don't recall the exact wording used) against women because they hadn't made any new Sisters of Battle. Please read it again, then once more just so it sinks in. This is the kind of thing that some people feel. And that resentment builds up.

I'll just reply to the "if they don't come in" part...

I'm assuming, in my statement, that the customer who saw those OOP minis bought them from someone in the store, not go away and look on ebay... and a cash sale to someone in-store gets money into the hands of another collector - one that's currently in my store and is already a fan of the products I sell... therefore the odds are good that I'll make a sale out of it - one I'd not have otherwise made, because the guy didn't have the cash.

I've seen it done in FLGS quite a few times with RPG material and the system tends to work more than it fails... you'll always get the "sooner go to ebay" sort, but they'll do that anyhow - they're only coming in to see how the models look. The point is, if you disallow old models, those gamers are likely to go elsewhere. If their club is better than your facilities at your store, you get an empty store, which makes a customer feel as welcome as an Orc in a Dwarven Stronghold... especially if the shop manager is desperate for sales - if someone starts to pressure sell me, I leave.

As for telling it how it was, you didn't mention that in your earlier post, it came across as your opinion, which is all I'm debating. And, believe me, I know what it's like not to hit targets - I'm self employed, I know the consequences - but in GW's case, it'd be nice to have had a "referred by" section if the customer later bought (as above) from another store, or online - since the credit could be shared then with the guy who'd done the groundwork... that way, even a store manager who wasn't keeping his targets filled, but was getting lots of sales for other stores or online through his store, could be given some credit for it. Mind you, it's at this point, having typed that, that I remind myself - this is GW we're talking about...

As for the resin, it's not that bad - and if they used LED lighting instead, would be even less so - it does depend on the ambient temperature though - here in the UK, I've only heard of a few cases of "droopy lance" and usually in the front windows at the peak of summer... and the plastics aren't even immune to that...

Inquisitor Kallus
06-08-2014, 19:53
GW needs to stop treating its shops like a competitor to its website. For that matter, they should rethink their relationship to independent stores, too. For years now I've thought about how hard it would be to run a shop selling only GW products, in part because the shop would compete directly with GW for sales. And Marketing would be challenging, and you can't really sell online, and your product range would be smaller than what is offered online.

And you cant see the models in the flesh, and you can't play games, and you can't have an introductory game, and you can't be shown painting skills specifically tailored to you and your model(s), and you can't get tactical advice, and you can't get general advice for terrain building/painting, and you cant be involved in a cool campaign, and you can't be involved in an Apocalypse game where youre given a date and rules and just turn up and play, and you cant get a buzzing atmosphere on a games night, and you can't get the community gamers feel when others are in the store, and you can't get inter-store rivalries and tournaments, and you can't get..........., oh wait

BFalcon
06-08-2014, 20:11
And you cant see the models in the flesh, and you can't play games, and you can't have an introductory game, and you can't be shown painting skills specifically tailored to you and your model(s), and you can't get tactical advice, and you can't get general advice for terrain building/painting, and you cant be involved in a cool campaign, and you can't be involved in an Apocalypse game where youre given a date and rules and just turn up and play, and you cant get a buzzing atmosphere on a games night, and you can't get the community gamers feel when others are in the store, and you can't get inter-store rivalries and tournaments, and you can't get..........., oh wait

And yet, some of us have no choice right now... :(

Their website was one of the main sources of painting guides I used - and I have both the older painting books... it was useful to double-check the base coat colour for a mini...

MiyamatoMusashi
06-08-2014, 21:23
And you cant see the models in the flesh, and you can't play games, and you can't have an introductory game, and you can't be shown painting skills specifically tailored to you and your model(s), and you can't get tactical advice, and you can't get general advice for terrain building/painting, and you cant be involved in a cool campaign, and you can't be involved in an Apocalypse game where youre given a date and rules and just turn up and play, and you cant get a buzzing atmosphere on a games night, and you can't get the community gamers feel when others are in the store, and you can't get inter-store rivalries and tournaments, and you can't get..........., oh wait

And yet, amazingly non-GW games (with no GW stores to help them out) are growing in popularity. Somehow.

Coldhatred
06-08-2014, 21:27
SNIP

Well said, and entirely spot on. The funny thing is that whilst GW tries to beat out the FLGS with their own stores they, at the same time, tie the hands of the manager running their store, and thus they aren't able to take the core competencies of the FLGS as a whole and use them. Very strange indeed, that.

williamsond
06-08-2014, 23:12
Its getting really bad at our local club, tonight out of about 30 people playing only 6 were playing GW games, this time last year it would have been closer to 24-26.

There has been a almost complete u-turn in the demographic, games like battletech, malifaux, bolt action and x-wing and star trek have almost reduced GW games down to nothing.

The reason seems to be a combination of price and bad rules/game balance, we have 25+ year veteran GW players who are just simply losing the will to keep playing in the face of ever increasing GW shenanigans.

Litcheur
06-08-2014, 23:58
Wir ersuchen Euch, Eure Mailorder bei uns in Eurem Lieblingshobbycenter an der
Front zu bestellen und nicht von Eurem Heimatplanet aus. Damit würdet ihr uns einen großen Gefallen tun und hättet die Folgenden Vorteile. Vielen Dank!
+ DU hilfst dabei direkt deinem Lieblingshobbycenter

Funny, that's approximately what some staff told me... In several french Hobby Centers.

I'm 30 years old, I can understand that these people have a Damocles sword over their heads, as all salespersons do. Each time a member of GW's staff ask me their usual introductory question, they almost feel sorry for me because they know I play the two armies GW seems to hate the most. It helps to get some "off the record" chit-chat. :D

But writing that on the Facebook page of your store in front of everybody... That's just sad.

Scaryscarymushroom
07-08-2014, 01:40
And you cant see the models in the flesh, and you can't play games, and you can't have an introductory game, and you can't be shown painting skills specifically tailored to you and your model(s), and you can't get tactical advice, and you can't get general advice for terrain building/painting, and you cant be involved in a cool campaign, and you can't be involved in an Apocalypse game where youre given a date and rules and just turn up and play, and you cant get a buzzing atmosphere on a games night, and you can't get the community gamers feel when others are in the store, and you can't get inter-store rivalries and tournaments, and you can't get..........., oh wait

I gather that what you are trying to say is, "So? Who cares if it's hard/impossible? Stores have great advantages." If this is correct, then I feel I should explain myself.

You have repeatedly stated that sales are the be-all end-all for store managers, and that they should makes their individual store's sales a key priority - higher than general customer retention, apparently - because their heads are on the line and they need to perform. Creating policies that prevent people from playing the game because they "do not contribute to the store" might be a good thing for a company that is a retail outlet for games, and nothing more. For example, my FLGS, which serves itself and has no other master. But for a company with absolutely critical design and manufacturing divisions and a very complicated retail distribution model, it is in fact the...


Wrong question.

For a store manager, a sale might very well feed his family. Fine - if this is the way GW operates, then this is how they operate. But the store managers aren't running the company. The board of directors runs the company, and the store managers ultimately serve the board, who serves the shareholders. The very fact that Games Workshop's store managers get axed if they don't turn a profit is a symptom of Games Workshop HQ's deeper retail illness. What they ask themselves is "How do we make these stores more profitable?" What they need to be asking themselves is, "How many sales do the policies of this store generate across our entire distribution chain?"

Let's take an example. Let's say there are two GW stores. One to the north, and one to the south.
Let's say that the store up north allows people to use Tyranids and Necrons from the 90s and 00s, while the store to the south requires that models be no more than 3 years "outdated" (if such a thing can even be said of models).
Let's say the store to the north generates $100,000 in sales annually, while the store to the south generates $200,000 in sales annually.
Let's say they both have overhead costs of $50,000. So North generates $50,000 profit, while South generates $150,000 profit.
But, the store to the north has three times as many people that show up, and it generates a lot of walk-in traffic and new recruits. Veteran players in the north show new recruits where they can get models for 20% off, and employees don't do anything to stop this behavior. In the south, this is frowned upon, as it deprives the store itself of sales, and costs GW about 45% (because the veterans are referring new gamers to GW's trade account arm, rather than going direct).
Let's say that Wayland games ships $240,000 worth of stuff to the north annually, because of referrals from Veterans that bring their 90s models in to play.
Let's say that GW gets $165,000 (55% of suggested retail) of that money, and Wayland uses the rest to pay their own employees, taxes, fees, and real estate, while the managers, directors and owners take home enough to live modestly.
Let's also say that Wayland ships $24,000 worth of stuff to the South. Because the store in the South wants people to buy direct, it also has a policy of only letting people play games with models that they bought at the South store. This is the reason for the low number. GW gets $16,500 of this money.
For the sake of example, let's say that GW's webstore sells another $30,000 to people living North (more active gaming community), and $15,000 to people living South.
Total score. North: $245,000. South: $181,500. The conduct and policies at each store directly led to these amounts going into GW's pockets. In this example, the North store clearly contributes more to GW overall than does the South store.
The North store also has the advantage of building goodwill, while the South store makes nerds on the internet (aka filthy consumers who think they deserve everything) whinge.

Now here's what the GW executives see.
North: $50,000. South: $150,000. Web: $45,000 (for North and South only). Trade accounts (for Wayland, for North and South only): $181,500. Wayland's cut, and their discount, represents an opportunity cost of $148,750 because if GW sold the stuff through a non-trade account arm of their distribution, they would have made $330,250 instead of $181,500. Therefore, wayland is a bad business partner and the North store is underperforming and should be given a new management direction, one that resembles the South store.
Result: less money going into GW HQ's pockets, a weaker gaming community up North, and poor brand-imaging.

This is what I mean by GW seeing its own stores as competition, and seeing independent retailers as competition.

When your distributor holds back products as "GW webstore exclusives," demands high wholesale prices, and restricts the ways you can sell your product, you can't divert sales from them. You just can't. Not unless you can take advantage of economies of scale, and sell to all of the USA, or the entire continent of Europe. GW needs to get its trade accounts, its web accounts, and its retail arm to collaborate, instead of having each individual store race for the biggest piece of the pie.

GW HQ's valuation of their employees using sales numbers and sales numbers exclusively is just another example of them being penny-wise, pound-foolish.

Inquisitor Kallus
07-08-2014, 03:16
I gather that what you are trying to say is, "So? Who cares if it's hard/impossible? Stores have great advantages." If this is correct, then I feel I should explain myself.

You have repeatedly stated that sales are the be-all end-all for store managers, and that they should makes their individual store's sales a key priority - higher than general customer retention,apparently

Please quote me, thankyou

Tau_player001
07-08-2014, 03:22
But writing that on the Facebook page of your store in front of everybody... That's just sad.
It is desperation.

Scaryscarymushroom
07-08-2014, 05:08
Please quote me, thankyou

My apologies. I read all the posts on the previous page hours before I replied, and I didn't go back to re-read them before posting. You don't take such a hard line after all. I am guilty of cherry-picking your statements and ignoring about half of what you said. I recant.

Still, here are a few of the quotes that led me (mistakenly) to attribute a hard-line attitude to you.



Wrong question.

The correct question is not "are they contributing to the store", but rather, "are they contributing to GW's bottom line"?

.

It's the correct question, contributing to the store in that way is also contributing to GW as a whole. To the store because if it is under performing it gets closed or the manager gets fired, he probably doesnt want that.

and this one:


Ludicrous? Read it as a store manager, if someone doesnt come in then you dont make sales for your store. Seriously, I dont know how you can even think otherwise. Unless of course youre performing some sort of Schroedigners Cat style experiment or altering the fabric of the Space Time continuum (Is that you Doctor Who?). So , Monty the Manager doesnt get people coming into his store, apart from the same old veterans who dont buy anything new as 'the old stuff is da best' . Oh no, hes not getting sales. Along comes Arthur the Area Manager.
'Hello Monty, it seems you havent been selling things. Im sorry, we have to close the store.'
Sad Face, much cry, all gone.

Hyperbole but with a basis firmly set in reality.
If a store cant hit targets and sustain itself it is closed. People lose jobs. The Vets dont care as they can go somewhere else to play, they might moan a bit if they have to pay at a club because 'what they had before' was free. I kow of this kind of thing happening, i've seen and heard it, but im not saying all Vets are like it, just a minority. Kind of like those who go into a store with an agenda to get one over on the staff there...

Autumn Leaves
07-08-2014, 06:51
After 18 pages of wandering thoughts and random ideas I'm not sure if I'm seeing any parallels between GW now and the last two years of TSR.
Plenty of conjecture, plenty of pontificating but very little in the way of actual parallels.
O_o

Coldhatred
07-08-2014, 17:43
After 18 pages of wandering thoughts and random ideas I'm not sure if I'm seeing any parallels between GW now and the last two years of TSR.
Plenty of conjecture, plenty of pontificating but very little in the way of actual parallels.
O_o

Well, I think there is at least one parallel in that TSR began to rapidly churn out products in their last years because they mistakenly thought that their customer base would buy anything and everything from them. The problem was that a lot of it was of very poor quality and there wasn't much value to be had from the customer's perspective. Are GW's latest products "poor quality"? That's mostly a subjective question, but I would error on the side of "Not for the most part", however the cost:value ratio is very similar to TSR's final product releases (in my opinion).

Inquisitor Engel
07-08-2014, 18:46
After 18 pages of wandering thoughts and random ideas I'm not sure if I'm seeing any parallels between GW now and the last two years of TSR.
Plenty of conjecture, plenty of pontificating but very little in the way of actual parallels.
O_o

It's almost like people are arguing on the Internet. ;)

M'ichal
08-08-2014, 04:37
I skimmed through this thread and some others regarding the business situation of GW.

But what I failed to see anywhere is a simple consideration: GW is a parent company to a few other companies, most closely Forge World, which creates niche resin models.

Do you not think that before GW's doom comes (which I hope it never does), FW would be gone far earlier? If so, do you guys see FW going down anytime soon? Because other than their fantasy line closing up, it seems they're churning out stuff faster than ever before and, it would seem, to general praise.

So I think before discussing GW's demise, one should first start looking at their much more niche branches and do an analysis of their state.

It definitely does seem the fantasy line is doing poorly in all branches, though, Black Library included.

Just my thoughts. Enjoy the hobby everyone.

Melkanador
08-08-2014, 05:36
BL & FW are probably the only reasons GW made any earnings at all.

But I agree with you that WHF is in an terrible state, no matter if at GW, FW or BL.

Poseidal
08-08-2014, 07:54
It shows that BL cannot thrive without an existing 'patron'. When 40k goes, BL is not going to exist on the quality of its fiction or its own merit.

Similarly with Forge World. The reason why it seems in better shape than GW main is the most dedicated spenders are the ones supporting these, and they will shrink the last/slowest.

Baragash
08-08-2014, 08:00
But what I failed to see anywhere is a simple consideration: GW is a parent company to a few other companies, most closely Forge World, which creates niche resin models.

Do you not think that before GW's doom comes (which I hope it never does), FW would be gone far earlier? If so, do you guys see FW going down anytime soon? Because other than their fantasy line closing up, it seems they're churning out stuff faster than ever before and, it would seem, to general praise.

Not if they're profitable business units.

AFAICS on Companies House and their respective websites FW and BL are not separate companies, not that that would make any difference to whether they were closed down or not.

Herzlos
08-08-2014, 08:49
It shows that BL cannot thrive without an existing 'patron'. When 40k goes, BL is not going to exist on the quality of its fiction or its own merit.

Similarly with Forge World. The reason why it seems in better shape than GW main is the most dedicated spenders are the ones supporting these, and they will shrink the last/slowest.

I don't think either BL or FW are popular for their quality; the books are often poorly written and derivative (but still good pulp fiction, when you don't want to use your brain too hard), and the FW output is pretty inconsistent. They do both thrive off the GW fanbase, and with FW in particular, because of the pricing parity with the core GW stuff they seem like a good deal (or more bizarrely, the cheaper option in some parts of the world. I'm pretty sure in Japan/Australia it's cheaper to buy FW DKK troopers and have them shipped than local Cadians, and FW are still able to ship internationally).

BFalcon
08-08-2014, 11:33
I skimmed through this thread and some others regarding the business situation of GW.

But what I failed to see anywhere is a simple consideration: GW is a parent company to a few other companies, most closely Forge World, which creates niche resin models.

Do you not think that before GW's doom comes (which I hope it never does), FW would be gone far earlier? If so, do you guys see FW going down anytime soon? Because other than their fantasy line closing up, it seems they're churning out stuff faster than ever before and, it would seem, to general praise.

So I think before discussing GW's demise, one should first start looking at their much more niche branches and do an analysis of their state.

It definitely does seem the fantasy line is doing poorly in all branches, though, Black Library included.

Just my thoughts. Enjoy the hobby everyone.

Not separate companies, separate divisions, I think you'll find - as someone just said, they're not listed on Companies House, which all Limited Companies need to be.

Even if they were, I'd expect them to be ditched to generate income only at the last second, since they need the IP to survive and they also bring in much needed profit which makes their otherwise poor performance look marginally better. BL itself probably brings in fairly large profits due to the ebooks being sold boosting their income and that section is probably accelerating.

winkypinky
10-08-2014, 16:27
Heehee.

Sup baby, you know I have a 4000 point Space Marine army...

Works with the ladies every time.....

Maybe in bizarro world.

If the army is painted to a decent standard, and you in other regards are just some kind of a nice person it should work really well. That you can show of some sort of creative side is never a minus.

Katastrophe
10-08-2014, 16:44
And yet, amazingly non-GW games (with no GW stores to help them out) are growing in popularity. Somehow.

Without stores of their own. Amazing what a company can do if they work with the LGSs to have them push their games (rather than treat them and independent internet sales as the enemy).

MusingWarboss
10-08-2014, 17:23
Without stores of their own. Amazing what a company can do if they work with the LGSs to have them push their games (rather than treat them and independent internet sales as the enemy).

Gosh, it's almost like selling your products, that you've designed to be sold, to people who want to buy them and actively promoting them might be a good thing?!?

Still GW will continue with its approach of grabbing all their shiny toys and hiding them away and going "No! No! You can't buy these, they're not for you and if I did sell you something you'd have to pay like, one-squillion pounds."

Because that's clearly the better approach. Right?? :shifty:

Noble Korhedron
10-08-2014, 17:53
Gosh, it's almost like selling your products, that you've designed to be sold, to people who want to buy them and actively promoting them might be a good thing?!?

Still GW will continue with its approach of grabbing all their shiny toys and hiding them away and going "No! No! You can't buy these, they're not for you and if I did sell you something you'd have to pay like, one-squillion pounds."

Because that's clearly the better approach. Right?? :shifty:G.W are stupid! :( It's such a pity 'cause I actually enjoy the game mechanics of Warhammer Fantasy. I guess I'll have to switch to using my Empire for medieval-era historical wargaming.....

MusingWarboss
10-08-2014, 19:01
G.W are stupid! :( It's such a pity 'cause I actually enjoy the game mechanics of Warhammer Fantasy. I guess I'll have to switch to using my Empire for medieval-era historical wargaming.....

You can still enjoy Warhammer Noble, just freeze at your favourite edition. It's like I could still play AD&D 2nd if I wanted to (I don't at the moment mind), you don't have to follow GW's constant wipe and refresh cycles. It is after all a marketing gimmick to flog more stuff.

Just remember that its a game, and the game is fighting two fantasy armies against each other not keeping up with the Joneses!! Many people moan about not being able to keep up with their painting habits but if you freeze (even if its only for a bit) then you can catch up. Then you can add more stuff if you want!!

The only reason to keep up with the current rules is if you're a: tournament gaming (ironic as GW won't support them these days) or b: lots of pickup games. If you're even slightly considering a different ruleset then neither of those are presumably an issue.

Gonefishing
10-08-2014, 20:44
The only reason to keep up with the current rules is if you're a: tournament gaming (ironic as GW won't support them these days) or b: lots of pickup games. If you're even slightly considering a different ruleset then neither of those are presumably an issue.

While you are quite correct, you can freeze (unless a tourney or pickup player), if you are someone playing as part of a group you still require your existing opponents/friends to also agree to freeze with you (or play against you using older editions with none of there shiny new toys). So it is not quite as simple as holding up your hand and shouting "none shall pass", as if you do so (even outside of tourney play and pick up games) you may well find you have no-one to play against full stop.

MusingWarboss
10-08-2014, 21:18
True, true. Though with a handful of friends there's usually some agreement over matters, I've even see retrofitting a few newer things done with agreement. A larger group I tend to class as pickup games because it kinda devolves into that after a while. Certainly if the thought is there to drop Warhammer altogether and play, say, Hail Caesar then that's the same issue as freezing editions. There may be no-one to play.

My point was though that if you like Warhammer's Ecosystem then there's no need to leave and abandon your old models, its still as playable as it always was.

I do see it as a bit of a GW mentality these days to always have more more more and keep on upgrading - which is entirely dictated by their desire to flog their shiny new toys as you rightly point out, rather than any real advantage to the players. It's not as if they've balanced everything out after 8 editions anyway! If anything they've added more stuff and skewed things further.

We really need an Oldhammer Community Edition where newer stuff gets retrofitted by the community into older rulesets and the whole lot smoothed out.

GW won't do it, its not in their interests to do so.

Noble Korhedron
10-08-2014, 22:38
You can still enjoy Warhammer Noble, just freeze at your favourite edition. It's like I could still play AD&D 2nd if I wanted to (I don't at the moment mind), you don't have to follow GW's constant wipe and refresh cycles. It is after all a marketing gimmick to flog more stuff.

Just remember that its a game, and the game is fighting two fantasy armies against each other not keeping up with the Joneses!! Many people moan about not being able to keep up with their painting habits but if you freeze (even if its only for a bit) then you can catch up. Then you can add more stuff if you want!!

The only reason to keep up with the current rules is if you're a: tournament gaming (ironic as GW won't support them these days) or b: lots of pickup games. If you're even slightly considering a different ruleset then neither of those are presumably an issue.It's not so much the painting thing, it's that any other army bar Empire or Brettonia or DoW aren't suitable for historical rulesets. Oh well, there goes my plan to replace my Orcs with Lizardmen. If I stay in teh game now I'll have to plan my Orc armies carefully. Maybe fill up core with Big Un's or Orc boyz mobs led by Black Orc heroes.....

MusingWarboss
10-08-2014, 23:23
It's not so much the painting thing, it's that any other army bar Empire or Brettonia or DoW aren't suitable for historical rulesets. Oh well, there goes my plan to replace my Orcs with Lizardmen. If I stay in teh game now I'll have to plan my Orc armies carefully. Maybe fill up core with Big Un's or Orc boyz mobs led by Black Orc heroes.....

Nah, you can use whatever figures you like! Who's to say those Romans aren't actually Lizard-Romans!! ;)

Oh, right, here's something more of less on-topic or back to topic anyway. I stumbled across this article while looking for something else but it may be of interest to people posting here:

Destroy All Monsters
http://www.believermag.com/issues/200609/?read=article_lafarge

All about the history of D&D, interesting in its own right BUT it does have a brief bit of an interview with Lorraine Williams about 3/4 of the way in. I'll just post up a bit here:


For nearly a year after we met Gygax, Wayne and I entertained various wild theories about what had really happened, and why. Then I found Lorraine Williams. She has kept silent about TSR since she left the company, in 1997, but she agreed to talk with me for some reason, perhaps because I didn’t sound like a hard-core gamer, or because even keeping silent no longer seems important to her after all these years. I hoped for something extraordinary from our conversation: a revelation, a glimmer of light in the dark heart of the cave. I was disappointed. “There’s no great, hidden story,” Williams told me, “as much as people would like there to be one.” She saw the potential for TSR to move beyond the sluggish market for role-playing games: “If you look at the track record of what has been published by TSR, and how many people in the fantasy and science fiction area got their start publishing with TSR, it’s impressive. And I found that exciting. I also saw an opportunity that we were never really able to capitalize on, and that was the ability to go in and develop intellectual property.” She moved in. “And it was my intention at that time,” she said, “and I really thought that Gary and I had actually worked out the deal, that he would continue to have a very strong role, a leading role in the creative process, and I would take over the management. But that didn’t work for a bunch of really extraneous reasons.” Williams declined to say what those reasons were, but her brother speculates, plausibly, that they had to do with the Los Angeles operation: basically, Gygax didn’t want to give up King Vidor’s mansion, not when a movie deal could come through any day, not when he was having so much fun.[39] Gloom, gloom.

When Gygax learned that Williams had bought the Blumes’ shares, he tried to block the sale in court. He lost. Lorraine Williams had outmaneuvered him, and she would continue to do so through the 1980s and ’90s, thwarting his attempts to create games which were, in her eyes, infringements on TSR’s intellectual property.[40] Gygax succumbed to the business equivalent of air superiority. In 1986, he became the chairman of the board of directors of a company called New Infinities Productions, which published the Cyborg Commando role-playing game, which has been utterly lost, like most of the role-playing games published in the 1980s. Not even the Compleat Strategist stocks it anymore.

bittick
11-08-2014, 16:23
GW, whether right or wrong (it's definitely wrong), has decided that the value of their company is increased by maximizing the profit margin on individual sales. Every business decision they have taken in the last decade has been following that path. You make a box of Space Marines for a dollar. You sell it for forty dollars. What if you can sell it for forty-five dollars? That's five more dollars!

GW believes that every sale that goes through anyone other than a GW store or the GW website is lost money. My local game store pays 40% of retail for GW products. So instead of GW getting forty dollars for those Space Marines, they only get sixteen. Therefore GW hates my local game store owner. He is stealing twenty-four dollars from them on every Space Marine box! If they could get rid of him, and get his customers to order directly from them, then they'd get all the money. "We should do that," they say.

GW believes that the wargaming market is inelastic. Raise prices, lower prices, it doesn't matter because the same people will buy anyway. GW believes it has maxed out the market. There are no people in the world who are interested in miniature games, or who would be interested in miniature games, who have not been exposed to GW products. The people who are going to buy GW products are going to buy nearly regardless of price. They will buy three boxes of Space Marines whether the price is twenty dollars a box, thirty dollars a box, or forty dollars a box. So let's charge forty.

GW believes this, 100%. Sure, they can see the evidence for declining sales, and they should be able to relate those declining sales to increases in prices, but that goes against what they believe.

Mr. Ultra
11-08-2014, 20:22
GW, whether right or wrong (it's definitely wrong), has decided that the value of their company is increased by maximizing the profit margin on individual sales. Every business decision they have taken in the last decade has been following that path. You make a box of Space Marines for a dollar. You sell it for forty dollars. What if you can sell it for forty-five dollars? That's five more dollars!

GW believes that every sale that goes through anyone other than a GW store or the GW website is lost money. My local game store pays 40% of retail for GW products. So instead of GW getting forty dollars for those Space Marines, they only get sixteen. Therefore GW hates my local game store owner. He is stealing twenty-four dollars from them on every Space Marine box! If they could get rid of him, and get his customers to order directly from them, then they'd get all the money. "We should do that," they say.

GW believes that the wargaming market is inelastic. Raise prices, lower prices, it doesn't matter because the same people will buy anyway. GW believes it has maxed out the market. There are no people in the world who are interested in miniature games, or who would be interested in miniature games, who have not been exposed to GW products. The people who are going to buy GW products are going to buy nearly regardless of price. They will buy three boxes of Space Marines whether the price is twenty dollars a box, thirty dollars a box, or forty dollars a box. So let's charge forty.

GW believes this, 100%. Sure, they can see the evidence for declining sales, and they should be able to relate those declining sales to increases in prices, but that goes against what they believe.

It's so true that hurts to read it. Thanks a lot for writing it.

MiyamatoMusashi
11-08-2014, 20:38
Similarly with Forge World. The reason why it seems in better shape than GW main is the most dedicated spenders are the ones supporting these, and they will shrink the last/slowest.

Yes, there's certainly a part of that to it. It would seem plausible that enthusiasts who spend more on a single Titan, than most gamers do an on entire army, are less likely to be dissuaded by 10 figures costing £35. That's not to say that they don't care about money, but if they're prepared to spend the money they do, they're likely to keep doing so long past the point of good sense. Little Timmy, for whom a £35 box of Rich Elves is seven weeks' pocket money? Not so much.

I would also add, and this is purely personal and subjective, that I find the stuff coming out of Forge World to be much more appealing than the stuff coming out of the studio lately. Several of the Primarchs would feature in my top-ten compilation of any models, from any company, ever. Probably the only model from the GW studio to make me go "wow" in the last few years was the Imperial Knight; sadly so did the price tag. Clearly, my tastes don't define the preferences of the entire wargaming market, but it's fair to say that the studio's design tastes no longer match my own as they once did (whereas it would be unfair to say that the quality of the studio's output has plummeted like a rock in the last few years. So I won't say that :shifty:).

Wolf Lord Balrog
11-08-2014, 20:41
GW believes that every sale that goes through anyone other than a GW store or the GW website is lost money. My local game store pays 40% of retail for GW products. So instead of GW getting forty dollars for those Space Marines, they only get sixteen. Therefore GW hates my local game store owner. He is stealing twenty-four dollars from them on every Space Marine box! If they could get rid of him, and get his customers to order directly from them, then they'd get all the money. "We should do that," they say.

Just a nit-picky thing, but the math is a bit off. GW's standard trade discount is 45% off MSRP. So a $40 box of Marines is $22 in GW's pocket and $18 in the independent retailer's pocket. If the retailer is selling at 20% off MSRP, as many do, GW still gets their $22, but the retailer only makes $10.

And the idea that GW hates the Indies is also simplistic. Independent retailers are actually by far GW's largest source of profit. They just don't have any idea how to optimize their trade relations.

ObiWayneKenobi
11-08-2014, 21:02
And the idea that GW hates the Indies is also simplistic. Independent retailers are actually by far GW's largest source of profit. They just don't have any idea how to optimize their trade relations.

Wouldn't it be more of an issue that they don't want to optimize their trade relations? It seems that they consider independent retailers to be a necessary evil rather than something they should be embracing.

Wolf Lord Balrog
11-08-2014, 22:19
Wouldn't it be more of an issue that they don't want to optimize their trade relations? It seems that they consider independent retailers to be a necessary evil rather than something they should be embracing.

I can see where GW's behavior would lead you to be believe that they think that way, but they don't. They recognize the importance of the independent retailers not only to the bottom line, but their importance to any long-term strategy to keep the hobby alive and growing. They just don't have a clue how to go about it properly (and they think indy store owners are all idiots), so you get all these weird, restrictive, Big-Brother-esque trade terms.