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View Full Version : My biggest gripe with knights... (Ironically not a knight moan thread)



Harwammer
11-03-2014, 11:56
My biggest gripe with knights: Just as it was starting to look like Land Raiders may actually have a role in the S6/S7 spam meta Knights come along so now everyone is loading up on Las Cannon/Melta weaponry!


So, the real point of the thread: have Land Raiders been sent back to the narrative tables, or is there (still?) a developing niche for them in the slightly more competitive 'take all comers' pick up game environment?

Camman1984
11-03-2014, 13:44
They still have their place imho. People are loading up on melta in place of their other anti-tank but marines are good at the alpha strike to cripple melta mobility (other marines not withstanding) str7 spam is still where its at though if you look at tau/eldar.

Mauler
11-03-2014, 13:46
Depends really, if you want to field an AV14 transport with two TL-lascannons then a Land Raider has a place with you. :)

hobojebus
11-03-2014, 13:47
Land raiders are cool but not supper useful, too expensive just to transport troops, too little fire power to make them an effective tank Hunter, rhinos are cheap and so are predators by comparison.

Poseidal
11-03-2014, 14:49
If the Knight gets into combat with the Land Raider, he explodes it if he hits it with his sword.

Mauler
11-03-2014, 14:54
IMO Land Raiders perform a similar role to the Razorback IFV but several levels up. They're designed to deliver an elite force to an objective and then anchor the line there to support them, hence the AV14 all round and the mixed TL-HB & TL-LC armament. While the (heavy) infantry do their work the IFV is there to lend supporting fire against incoming threats or targets beyond the scope of the infantry and then safely get them out or other infantry in.

True you can get two TL-LC Predators and a Rhino for a handful of points less, the upside is that you've got greater tactical flexibility in 2+1 units of armour instead of 1 but they take up two HS slots instead of none if the LR is a DT, they're less survivable vs heavy non-Lance AT (especially if flanked) and once they start getting wrecked the effectiveness of your force starts decreasing while the LR is more resilient.

I think they still have a place, if you want to base a plan around a heavy assault IFV then there's not much wrong with a Land Raider apart from the cost.

IcedCrow
11-03-2014, 15:02
I've seen land raiders used to great effect transporting a nasty assault unit that gets to disembark and then charge.

Even against necrons - who we are told should implode the land raider in turn 1 by virtue of: necrons.

duffybear1988
11-03-2014, 16:02
I find land raiders a lot like leman russ tanks - they either die turn 1 or hand around for the whole game annoying your opponent as he struggles to destroy them. Against most non optomised armies you are looking at maybe 2 or 3 units with the weapons to deal with an AV14 vehicle. Admittedly the increase in superheavies will cause this to rise, but if you play the game well enough you can fend off most of the completely deadly stuff until your big shiny has had an impact. Last game I played was against a dreadnought with multi melta which wiffed it's melta shot twice against my russ. I then charged it with platoon command squad and killed it with melta bombs - the GK player never saw that coming :D. I only meant for them to stall it a turn to give me an extra round of shooting.

Thing is if you plan on running something as expensive as a land raider then you have to theme your army around it. I always remember the old way of the water warrior tactics that GK used to use. They were never that successful because 9 times out of 10 the other army was far more powerful. Still the lingering idea was that you used the land raiders as aircraft carriers and the PAGK and terminators as your fighters. My mate always played that way and the games were interesting (especially when he decided to take some suicide stormtroopers with meltas and we called them Zeros).

Spiney Norman
11-03-2014, 16:25
I've seen land raiders used to great effect transporting a nasty assault unit that gets to disembark and then charge.

Even against necrons - who we are told should implode the land raider in turn 1 by virtue of: necrons.

This. I use a Land Raider Redeemer in most of my games, it routinely delivers my inquisitor and his cabal of Death cult assassins and Crusaders (not to mention Father Marcion the priest) into combat, of course that pre-game scout move from the inquisitors magic book really helps me out there.

Most people are shooting at my exorcists on T1 because they're the more immediate threat, most people are amazed at how quickly a Land raider can cross the table when it needs to.

MajorWesJanson
11-03-2014, 16:28
Target Saturation. A Land Raider on it's own is a big target. 2-3 Land Raiders, or a Land Raider plus a couple of podded Ironclads, or a Land Raider and a Knight... that starts to cause problems for deciding where to allocate anti-tank shots.

Lanacane
11-03-2014, 16:48
when in doubt LR Achilles solves a lot of problems.

nothing like a TFC and 2 TL-MM to have fun with.

Menthak
11-03-2014, 17:06
My biggest gripe with knights: Just as it was starting to look like Land Raiders may actually have a role in the S6/S7 spam meta Knights come along so now everyone is loading up on Las Cannon/Melta weaponry!


So, the real point of the thread: have Land Raiders been sent back to the narrative tables, or is there (still?) a developing niche for them in the slightly more competitive 'take all comers' pick up game environment?

I'm sorry, is there not a place for a AV 14 all around tank with the best long range weaponry the Imperium has to offer (For it's scale)?

I fear the land raider, it hurts me.

Chem-Dog
11-03-2014, 17:33
I run two main armies at the moment
A Veteran Mech list where every unit has the Demolitions Doctrine - meltabombs for everyone - I'm going to rush those Knights and melt it's ankles off!
An "Everything has legs" army with as many Scout Sentinels as I can get supporting Infantry Blobs equipped for close quarters work - That list will live and die on having the Sentinels able to outflank and engage the Knights on multiple facings in a turn.

So no, it's not gonna change my game.

Unless I decide to bring Knights :evilgrin:

The bearded one
12-03-2014, 06:09
Being AV13 (and lower sides and rear IIRC?), the knight can be glanced to death with sufficient str7 spam, so not necessarily everyone might be loading up on more meltas. My Tau list regularly has 30+ str7 shots in it, 12 of which have tankhunter (and I do have a couple meltas), so I do not necessarily feel the need to get more tankbusting material.

Also, I have a unit of 6 firewarriors with emp grenades, so I could assault a knight and fry its circuits :p

Mandragola
12-03-2014, 12:37
Just FYI, it takes 72 S7 hits to the front armour to kill a knight if it points its shield at you. Tank hunter rerolls drop that number quite a bit, but not to the point where you have any kind of hope of actually stopping the things, let alone 3-4 of them. If the knights go first you get one shooting phase at them, as they will assault something on turn 2.

I'm not really sure what does work. Lots of lascannons seems like a fairly good option. Melta bombs wherever you can get them. Haywire is a decent idea too for sure but 6 fire warriors will struggle to have all that much impact. Knights cause fear, strike first killing ~2 of them then stomp, likely killing the rest. 4 FWs will probably take a hull point or two off, depending on whether they pass their fear test, but that doesn't count for combat resolution so the knight is going to win combat by a lot, if any FWs even survive, and probably run the survivors down. Now it consolidates d6" closer to you.

So far I've used my knights 4 times, with not especially optimised marine allies, and effectively tabled my opponent every time.

The bearded one
12-03-2014, 15:03
Certainly so, if your army has 3+ knights.

I was more thinking of my own scene. The Gw sold two dozen knights or so, but only 1 per player, barring 1 or 2 people. Getting a single knight down is a doable task.


But as an aside I am painting up a unit of 3 suits with dual fusion blasters and some target locks, who are going to deepstrike with farsight. 6 non-scattering meltashots that can divide onto 3 different targets. Eat that in your reararmour.

carldooley
12-03-2014, 15:58
How are they for durability? I am getting one to fill with HQs & SS Terminators to put onto the table to survive my opponent's first turn. reading the posts above has me thinking that the first solid hit will blow it up, how do invulnerable saves matter against strD weapons? or should I plan on allying Coteaz to the army to hopefully seize?