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Dark Primus
21-03-2014, 17:47
I seriously hope if the Chaos gets an Knight of their own that it wont be just a Chaosfied version of the Imperial Knight. I personally would want to see something completely different and be just as good both in rules and stats.
I just don't see Chaos Dameons get one unless its a Daemon Engine, could be interesting.

Did Chaos has something in Epic that was their equivalent to the Imperial Knight?

A.T.
21-03-2014, 17:56
Did Chaos has something in Epic that was their equivalent to the Imperial Knight?Slaanesh hell knights.

Though chaos already has a plastic superheavy - the Khorne Lord of Skulls.

Fingers
21-03-2014, 18:00
Yeah but isn't that like 600+ points and Esc/Apoc only? Not to mention ugly as sin.

csm
21-03-2014, 18:57
Yeah but isn't that like 600+ points and Esc/Apoc only? Not to mention ugly as sin.

I dont know what you mean by "Escalation Only".

And, that big khorne thing is almost 900 points :(

The Emperor
21-03-2014, 19:04
The Lord of Skulls is 888 points, and thanks to the Escalation supplement, it's now for standard 40k and no longer limited to Apocalypse games. There's no such thing as an "Escalation" game. The purpose of that book was to introduce new rules and units to the baseline game, rules which will likely find their way into the updated 7th edition 40k rulebook in a few months.

As for the Chaos versions, here're some pictures.

189734

189735

189736

189738

189737

Ozendorph
21-03-2014, 19:08
I seriously hope if the Chaos gets an Knight of their own that it wont be just a Chaosfied version of the Imperial Knight. I personally would want to see something completely different and be just as good both in rules and stats.
I just don't see Chaos Dameons get one unless its a Daemon Engine, could be interesting.

Did Chaos has something in Epic that was their equivalent to the Imperial Knight?

Looking at GW/FW daemon engines:

Helbrute
Blood Slaughterer
Plague Drone
Decimator
Defiler
Maulerfiend
Slaughterfiend
Heldrake
Brass Scorpion
Skulldozer

I think that's it. They could wedge another walker in there, but it's not like there's a glaring whole in the range.

duffybear1988
21-03-2014, 19:11
Exactly. Chaos has it's fair share of other stuff.

OuroborosTriumphant
21-03-2014, 19:39
We do know, from the Imperial Knight Codex, that there are recent traitor Knight Households, such as House Drakon as well as the Heresy-era House Devine (the Slaanesh Hell-Knights from Epic are from House Devine). So Chaos Knights patterned after the new Knight kit would be perfectly in keeping with the current fluff.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Forgeworld will do some resin armour plates with Chaos iconography that can slot onto the new plastic kit and put Chaos Knight rules in an Imperial Armour book. But we shall see.

Darnok
21-03-2014, 20:01
With the way the Imperial Knight model is built, it is quite easy to produce a set of "chaosified" armour plates, weapons and head to make a Chaos version. I assume ForgeWorld will do this sooner or later.

A unique Chaos Knight - like something built on the Slaanesh thing shown above - might happen at some point in the future, but it would be quite a bif investment. FW might do one, but GW will not, most likely. One of the big selling point of the Knight is, that it is usable by about half the armies available (not taking into account allies...). A Chaos version is much more specific.

Andy p
21-03-2014, 22:00
Slaanesh hell knights.

Though chaos already has a plastic superheavy - the Khorne Lord of Skulls.

Slaanesh/nurgle hell knights. Sexy, obese, perfumed but rotting, it's the Ron Jeremy story!

LegioDestructor
21-03-2014, 23:13
Of the vehicles Ozendorph listed, 5 are in the Chaos Codex, the Plague Drone and Blood Slaughterer are small and god-specific, and the Decimator is essentially a Dreadnought. Boooring. The pictures The Emperor posted are all devoted to Slaanesh, with the last two being larger Daemon-Titans of Slaanesh, so Chaos clearly has room. Anything with less than 5hp or more than 500pts is simply not in Knight territory. I'll admit that Chaos has something similar with the Lord of Skulls, but again it is god-specific and over twice the points. A Knight is a 40k niche that has only just been filled, and has no real alternative except for other "Knights" or, 6hp walkers. Even the Orks and their love of stompy robotic death don't have anything of this size class, and the Eldar are the only other race that was mentioned having Knights - but that was background from 20+ years ago. Chaos not getting Knights at all based on this? I doubt it. Other races don't have many options in the 400pt superheavy vehicle mark, the Knights operate like agile heavy tanks with an assault capability; the XV104 Riptide is about 60% of the way there, and the Necron Obelisk is the only thing remotely close in stats and points.

Saying that any and all Chaos Knights will / must have some sort of Daemon rule with gnarling faces and tentacles sprouting everywhere is like saying Chaos vehicles are obligated to purchase Daemonic Possession, which they are not. Armour variants, weaponry, vehicles, aircraft, titans; all Chaos equipment dating from the Heresy is simply Imperial + Spikes, without PotMS and with the occasional outdated weapon-swap. Possession is an option, and the Daemon Engines came later when their construction materials included daemons themselves. Knights have close ties to, operate in concert with, and share weapons and heraldry with the Titan Legions. Traitor Legions and Knight "Bands" [or whatever fallen Houses call themselves] could operate under similar alliances of convenience, tagging along with Space Marine Legions on incursions. The only difference between Imperial Titans and Chaos Titans is that Chaos players pay +10pts for a Dirge Caster. So potentially, "Chaos Knights" could be the current kit with different spikey shoulders and a Dirge Caster and nothing else. Maybe swap the Heavy Stub for a Reaper AC.

Slaaneshi Hellknights are a great idea, existed in Epic, and GW even made rules for their bigger brother Daemon Titans, but limiting the Chaos Knight market to a single god is stupid from both a game and business perspective. An undivided, non-daemonic Chaos Knight will come. We'll just need to wait. As there is already a rumour of FW doing the Lancer, Castellan, and Crusader Knight variants, Daemon-Knight versions seem completely natural but to be fair to FW that's easily several years of releases for a specific model. It has been mentioned in various threads that Slaanesh has not been covered by an Imperial Armour book, so releasing conversion kits for the Helstrider, Helscourge, Helknight, and models of the Subjugator or Questor - which share most of their shape with the Warhound Titan - in a forthcoming IA is something that could congeal into reality. *nudges FW* Listening?

Beppo1234
21-03-2014, 23:15
has anyone combined the Lord of Skulls and the Knight kit yet... or atleast taken pictures of the two kits side by side?

Chem-Dog
22-03-2014, 04:14
I would love to see one or more of the Slaaneshi Knight-class Daemon Engines. Not sure how likely I think it'd be, mainly due to the points Darnok raises. It would lack the universal appeal BUT GW do seem to be rather slow on the uptake when it comes to 40K fans and their preference for mono-god builds, several Codexes, supplements and model releases (The Lord of Skulls most recently and prominently) show that they still champion the homogenised Chaos army over a patron specific force.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 07:25
The Lord of Skulls is 888 points, and thanks to the Escalation supplement, it's now for standard 40k and no longer limited to Apocalypse games. There's no such thing as an "Escalation" game.You wish. Just go to our local GW store and a lot of people will tell you they won't play if you use Escalation entries. And they are legit to request that, same as they could refuse to play against Flying Necron Circus, a full Eldar Wraith army or an All-Knight list. It is up to your opponents to decide what they want to face and what not. No rulebook in the world will change that.

Spiney Norman
22-03-2014, 12:33
It is up to your opponents to decide what they want to face and what not. No rulebook in the world will change that.

wow, I'm pretty sure you're the first person I've come across who expects to be able to write their opponents list for them. Its one thing to say you want to avoid playing against LoW or lists that spam OP units, but expecting to be able to decide on exactly what your opponent brings is taking it too far imo.

The other player is not there just to give you an ego boost at the expense of his own enjoyment you know.

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 12:47
You wish. Just go to our local GW store and a lot of people will tell you they won't play if you use Escalation entries. And they are legit to request that, same as they could refuse to play against Flying Necron Circus, a full Eldar Wraith army or an All-Knight list. It is up to your opponents to decide what they want to face and what not. No rulebook in the world will change that.

That doesn't change the fact that it's part of the official rules set. Your group being unwilling to play against that or even against armies which are legal according to their codex doesn't change that. I could refuse to play any Ork player who includes Grots in his list, but that doesn't make Codex: Orks any less of an official publication.

Wesser
22-03-2014, 12:50
I'd hope Chaos gets something less out out of place....

Hengist
22-03-2014, 13:11
As has already been said, Heresy-era Traitor marine armies will doubtless get access to knights, probably in HH: Extinction, and I'd be most surprised if FW didn't produce a resin conversion kit and rules for Chaos Marines to use them in 40k sooner or later.

Beppo1234
22-03-2014, 16:43
The other player is not there just to give you an ego boost at the expense of his own enjoyment you know.

that is exactly why the game is being played.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 16:59
wow, I'm pretty sure you're the first person I've come across who expects to be able to write their opponents list for them. Its one thing to say you want to avoid playing against LoW or lists that spam OP units, but expecting to be able to decide on exactly what your opponent brings is taking it too far imo.

The other player is not there just to give you an ego boost at the expense of his own enjoyment you know.Don't blame me. Don't blame anyone else either. Everyone can decide if a game will be fun for him or not. You cannot force anyone to play a game with (! note ! not AGAINST !) you. That's why I'm saying it. I would be glad if you could make it less a personal vendetta against me though. We are humans and every human should be allowed to decide what he wants to do and what he will enjoy and what not. If you can't see that point in my argument, I'm sorry.


That doesn't change the fact that it's part of the official rules set. Your group being unwilling to play against that or even against armies which are legal according to their codex doesn't change that. I could refuse to play any Ork player who includes Grots in his list, but that doesn't make Codex: Orks any less of an official publication.Of course. But you made it sound as if they *have to* accept it and as if they *have to* play you if you want to field such units. They don't.


that is exactly why the game is being played.Sadly, for many WAAC-players out there this is true.

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 17:05
Of course. But you made it sound as if they *have to* accept it and as if they *have to* play you if you want to field such units. They don't.

Of course they don't. Since when does anyone have to play something they don't? That's assumed. But there's a difference between a book which changes the rules of the game, like Apocalypse, and something like Escalation, which is more like a codex.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 17:07
Actually, in practical use, there isn't. Either people want to play a game including these rules or they don't. And from what I see in my local GW store (really, not just a local gaming group or anything, it is the local GW store), people make quite a difference between 40k and 40k with Escalation units. You can even see that in the discussions on our GW Facebook page where people are looking for other people to play games with them. Often they explicitly state that they do not want Escalation units.
Personally, I'd allow them, since I am a huge Forge World fan. But well, I'm just saying what I'm seeing. There is indeed a difference, no matter how closely Super Heavies or Escalation are tied to 40k. I bet my hat that even in 7th where Super Heavies will be in the core rulebook of 40k, people will still refuse games with Super Heavies on the opposing side. I can't blame them for that choice and I won't either. I'm just saying that this is the case and will stay the case in the future most likely. Hell, I still even see a lot of games where people will not allow named Characters either. As if we're still in older editions where they needed permission or something.

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 17:11
Actually, in practical use, there isn't. Either people want to play a game including these rules or they don't.

There is, otherwise people wouldn't bother wasting money on a codex if they expected people to declare they wouldn't play against someone using those rules.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 17:15
*sigh*
Ok, believe what you want. I see that in the real world people do make quite a difference about them. Simply because Super Heavies are indeed sometimes hard to come by. It's the same that had been going on with Forge World like forever. Many people bought the models and the books. And still even more refused to allow them in games and still refuse to do so.
But well, believe what you want.

=Angel=
22-03-2014, 17:18
There is, otherwise people wouldn't bother wasting money on a codex if they expected people to declare they wouldn't play against someone using those rules.

But escalation isnt an army that you chose to play , it's a huge load of additional add on bits for armies. A reasonable person wouldn't turn up with baneblades and thunderhawk gunships and just expect that anyone would play them.
Maybe there's a community and culture where that would happen but it's foreign to me.

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 17:21
*sigh*
Ok, believe what you want. I see that in the real world people do make quite a difference about them. Simply because Super Heavies are indeed sometimes hard to come by. It's the same that had been going on with Forge World like forever. Many people bought the models and the books. And still even more refused to allow them in games and still refuse to do so.
But well, believe what you want.

:rolleyes: Nobody's the same and I'm not saying everyone accepts everything, but if you think your group, which excludes elements from codex books is representative, then you're not exactly speaking authoritatively on the subject.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 17:27
I never said this is true for all people on the planet. Neither am I saying that all people on the planet refuse Escalation. Of course not.
I'm just saying that it doesn't matter which status Escalation has to 40k or does not have, because it is the player who decides about it being allowed or refused and not GW. If they want to refuse it, it doesn't matter if it is part of the core rulebook, a codex or an expansion.

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 17:29
And I'm just saying that, as far as the rules are concerned, it's part of the official rules. You're the one making assumptions that making that statement means that everyone's contractually bound to abide by every rule at all times.

Hendarion
22-03-2014, 19:38
No, I'm saying the opposite.

MvS
22-03-2014, 20:40
I think this, gentlemen, is why it's so good to make friends in our gaming areas so that we can arrange to fight battles of lots of different kinds, without there being overbalance and/or resentment.

I've never had any trouble fighting Apocalypse / Escalation / skirmish / campaign or whatever else, because I (and the other people in the areas where I tend to game) take the time to make friends and allies with whom we can arrange really fun, interesting and challenging games without expecting every game to be a chess-like pick up game.

The gaming side of our hobby is nothing if not a sociable one. It requires genuine gaming friends in order to reach its full potential.

Scribe of Khorne
22-03-2014, 20:45
rofl @ escalation being 'just another codex'.

Keep drinking the koolaid Emperor. :p

MajorWesJanson
23-03-2014, 01:32
Escalation and the lord of war slot is a force org chart decision, not just another codex. Saying you don't want to run Escalation/Lords of War is not like saying you want the other player to leave out Helldrakes or Grots or Rhinos from their list. Saying you want to leave out Lords of War is closer to saying "I want to play an 1850 game instead of a 2000 point game" or "I want to play 2000 points, double FOC instead of 1999+1"

Zion
23-03-2014, 02:10
Getting away from the Escalation debate that should be in it's own thread and not here and back on the topic of Chaos Knights....


Slaanesh hell knights.
You mean Dubstep Knights, right?

"DROP THE BASS BROTHER!"

"DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!" *WUBWUBWUBWUBWUBWUB*


With the way the Imperial Knight model is built, it is quite easy to produce a set of "chaosified" armour plates, weapons and head to make a Chaos version. I assume ForgeWorld will do this sooner or later.

A unique Chaos Knight - like something built on the Slaanesh thing shown above - might happen at some point in the future, but it would be quite a bif investment. FW might do one, but GW will not, most likely. One of the big selling point of the Knight is, that it is usable by about half the armies available (not taking into account allies...). A Chaos version is much more specific.
I have a feeling if Chaos gets them they'll be open to Daemons as well. That and it either be some kind of daemon engine (with the pilot permanently fused inside, or the thing possessed) or just a spikey/fleshy version of what we got.

One of the advantages of CAD designing is they can create stuff based off of the stuff that exists much quicker so we may not have to wait too long (relatively speaking) to see it happen (assuming GW actually plans on doing that).

Clang
23-03-2014, 06:45
I can't see GW producing a chaos Knight equivalent beyond what we've already seen - most of the obvious candidates are too specific (although then again, you could say the same of the Khorne-mower, so I may be wrong).

But yes, I totally expect FW is already sculpting chaos/traitor conversion bits for the Knight - makes totally sense, given what they've done in their Titan range.

MvS
23-03-2014, 09:02
I'd like to see whether, with the mix of a Knight, Lord of Skulls and a Baneblade bits how complex it would be to make a Khornate Knight and a Plague Reaper Super Heavy Tank.

I'm pretty certain the Baneblade or Shadowsword turrets could be jiggled and cut around to fit on the 'tank' part of a Lord of Skulls, but I'm most interested in seeing whether the Lord of Skulls body is the right size for the Knight legs - or is it more of a Dreadknight size?

Spiney Norman
23-03-2014, 09:10
I'm just saying that it doesn't matter which status Escalation has to 40k or does not have, because it is the player who decides about it being allowed or refused and not GW. If they want to refuse it, it doesn't matter if it is part of the core rulebook, a codex or an expansion.

That's an interesting point, and I think illustrates one of the reasons why GW is failing. The game no longer works without intense self-regulation by the players. 40k is a game, you're supposed to be able to pick it up, use the rules as they are presented, have a game and go home, not spend ages negotiating which parts of the rules you are going to use, deciding which units to ban, etc. The very fact that we have to do that is testament to how terribly out of balance the game is and how bad GW is at writing their game rules.

I mean when was the last time you started a game of chess with a friend and said "you know what, let's play without any knights or queens this time, I think they're really OP"?

Mike3791
23-03-2014, 14:52
I mean when was the last time you started a game of chess with a friend and said "you know what, let's play without any knights or queens this time, I think they're really OP"?

When was the last time the game of chess changed its rules?? Never. 40k is a living and evolving game.

Hendarion
23-03-2014, 15:09
By the way, something on topic:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2375487814/permalink/10152051898072815/

Mauler
24-03-2014, 10:41
GW will most likely produce Knights for both types of Chaos players.

A section of the Knights codex details the existence of Daemon Knights where the pilot has died but his soul lives on in the corrupted machine as a daemon. So there's a nod towards it as a sign of intent and there's money to be had. It'll happen.