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View Full Version : So what're the Obsidian Knight's stats in Damocles?



The Emperor
24-03-2014, 00:11
I'm just wondering what differences there are between the Obsidian Knight and a standard Knight Paladin. Also, is he available for standard 40k games, or is he only available in Apocalypse games? Thanks.

IcedCrow
24-03-2014, 01:40
Something about him having a couple points higher BS and WS and costing a little more.

The Emperor
24-03-2014, 01:46
From what I've heard, he's a Seneschal with Rage and Preferred Enemy (Tau). Is that the only difference?

A.T.
24-03-2014, 01:51
He can outflank and his WS/BS are higher than a normal seneschls. For a relatively small points increase - he would be a no brainer for the cost if you could pick him rather than a regular paladin.

The Emperor
24-03-2014, 02:25
So there's no way to take him in regular 40k games?

A.T.
24-03-2014, 11:27
So there's no way to take him in regular 40k games?It's up to whoever is playing.

On the one hand he is presented alongside apocalypse formations with nothing explicit one way or the other.

On the other hand he's just a named knight character rather than a formation and really should have been included as an option in the knight book. He has his own points value and would be basically indistinguishable from any other character knight that GW or forgeworld may release.


The biggest cross against him is not how his rules are presented but rather what his rules are - he is the same as one of forgeworlds 'statted to sell' units, blatantly better than his codex counterpart for a trivial increase in points.

duffybear1988
24-03-2014, 13:23
I'm guessing he was chucked into the Damocles book to actually get people to buy the book. As others have said he really should have been in the Knights codex as a special character. Will be interesting to see if GW put out a yes or no answer to him being "40k legal".

Navar
24-03-2014, 14:06
I would think he would be apocalypse only simply because of how he is presented.


Iforgeworlds 'statted to sell' units

Can you give examples of this?

A.T.
24-03-2014, 15:20
Can you give examples of this?R'varna would be the most recent one.

The obsidian knight's upgrades are a tough sell to a competitive opponent, and you'd be a bit of a git taking it in a more casual game. Fine for apoc though.

Navar
24-03-2014, 15:45
R'varna would be the most recent one.

What book are the R'Varna's stats in? Also you said this like it was a thing that happens with some frequency. Is this the only example?


The obsidian knight's upgrades are a tough sell to a competitive opponent, and you'd be a bit of a git taking it in a more casual game. Fine for apoc though.

This is exactly correct.

Spiney Norman
24-03-2014, 15:53
R'varna would be the most recent one.

The obsidian knight's upgrades are a tough sell to a competitive opponent, and you'd be a bit of a git taking it in a more casual game. Fine for apoc though.

This, anything goes in apoc, in actual fact you can field the obsidian knight from the knight codex! he's just a normal free blade knight and uses those stats that are more appropriate for a game of regular 40k. There are even pictures of the Obs Knight in there and everything...


What book are the R'Varna's stats in? Also you said this like it was a thing that happens with some frequency. Is this the only example?

This is exactly correct.

The R'varna's stats weren't in a book, they were downloadable as a free PDF from the forgeworld site. Its a well established tactic of FW to drive sales that they put out a 'experimental rules' PDF with stats so obviously overpowered that all the tourney types rush out and buy them, and when the actual official stats are released in an IA book they are substantially toned down.

The moral of the story is, never trust a FW experimental rules PDF.

Navar
24-03-2014, 16:28
The R'varna's stats weren't in a book, they were downloadable as a free PDF from the forgeworld site. Its a well established tactic of FW to drive sales that they put out a 'experimental rules' PDF with stats so obviously overpowered that all the tourney types rush out and buy them, and when the actual official stats are released in an IA book they are substantially toned down.

Oh, so it isn't so much that Forge World routinely makes units overpowered just to sell them, it is more that they produce experimental rules that are way too good and then tone them down.

I don't think this would be a very winning strategy to actually sell a lot of overpowered models though after the first time. I guess fools and their wallets . . .

A.T.
24-03-2014, 16:51
Oh, so it isn't so much that Forge World routinely makes units overpowered just to sell them, it is more that they produce experimental rules that are way too good and then tone them down.And, for some reason, rarely seem to make experimental rules that need to be 'toned up'.

To be fair they have never done anything quite as over the top as the WD screamers and flamers, though they do release the occasional 'premium content' unit like the javelin landspeeder. The old pre-nerf warp hunter came close though.

They also have a bad habit of leaving old units behind, like the lightning and thunderbolt sporting their craptastic 3rd edition rules in the aeronautica book. Then the lightning was replaced with a new model design - lo and behold more armour, better BS, and enough firepower to flatten a spartan tank in a single pass.


Trying to get this back on topic - I do wonder where the rumoured forgeworld titan upgrades will land on the balance scale.

Still Standing
25-03-2014, 00:48
They do, except nobody seems to remember them. Of the top of my head...

Units which have been toned UP.

Irillyth and the Shadow Spectres.
Sicaran Venator.
Lightning Interceptor
The entirety of the first Horus Heresy book.
Valkyrie

Units which have been toned DOWN.

R'Varna
Heavy Mortar Phosphus rounds.

melgorth
25-03-2014, 01:21
They do, except nobody seems to remember them. Of the top of my head...

Units which have been toned UP.

Irillyth and the Shadow Spectres.
Sicaran Venator.
Lightning Interceptor
The entirety of the first Horus Heresy book.
Valkyrie

Units which have been toned DOWN.

R'Varna
Heavy Mortar Phosphus rounds.

I recall all those alright, except I'm not sure what you mean with the Horus Heresy book, when were all the units in that toned up since it came out? Has there been some FAQ I've missed?


The R'varna's stats weren't in a book, they were downloadable as a free PDF from the forgeworld site. Its a well established tactic of FW to drive sales that they put out a 'experimental rules' PDF with stats so obviously overpowered that all the tourney types rush out and buy them, and when the actual official stats are released in an IA book they are substantially toned down.

The moral of the story is, never trust a FW experimental rules PDF.

There have been a good amount of experimental rules that haven't needed Up or Down toning as well, its almost like Forgeworld gets the rules for models wrong at times, and then with the aid of feedback attempts to fix them when they can. Also surely it would be better to leave those models over-powered from then on so they could continue to make lots of money from them? Do you know people who have bought experimental rule models thinking that the rules would never change?

Spiney Norman
25-03-2014, 08:39
There have been a good amount of experimental rules that haven't needed Up or Down toning as well, its almost like Forgeworld gets the rules for models wrong at times, and then with the aid of feedback attempts to fix them when they can. Also surely it would be better to leave those models over-powered from then on so they could continue to make lots of money from them? Do you know people who have bought experimental rule models thinking that the rules would never change?

No, but I know a good number of people who bought an Rvarna or two so they could 'make hay while the sun shines' so to speak. Most people I know use the experimental rules to field their forgeworld models even after their rules have been printed in a book to save themselves from having to buy a 50 book just to field one model.

That's one of the reasons we still have an opponents permission rule at our club for anything that is using experimental rules.

Greyhound
26-03-2014, 02:43
In IA8, Forgeworld upped most of the Ork vehicles when 6th release:

Most obvious example were the Grot Sponsons completely redone and changed (no stat stayed the same except cost)

Sir Didymus
26-03-2014, 07:05
No, but I know a good number of people who bought an Rvarna or two so they could 'make hay while the sun shines' so to speak. Most people I know use the experimental rules to field their forgeworld models even after their rules have been printed in a book to save themselves from having to buy a 50 book just to field one model.

This tickles my curiosity; do you also play with outdated codex's? And does this extend to main rules too, so you can risk running into 3rd. ed dark eldar? And is the acceptance solely based on economy, or is personal preference an equally valid reason? :p


That's one of the reasons we still have an opponents permission rule at our club for anything that is using experimental rules.

Our rules are even more strict. You need your opponents consent just to play. You can even get dismissed on irrelevant things like odious personal habits, bad chemistry and playing space wolves. Its pretty brutal ;)

- sarcasm aside. The image you paint of your group comes off as pretty immature (yet strangely loaded) with this pay-to-win mentality and the acceptance of it.

A.T.
26-03-2014, 10:40
Lightning InterceptorOnly when the new model came out. In the 9 years between IA1 and aeronautica it barely changed. The valkyrie was the same until they had a new plastic model to push.

Weren't shadow spectres AP2 with invulnerable saves originally? The updated PDF has them as AP3 with cover saves and IIRC the ghost light used to reach across the board, but they are cheaper than I remember.
Can't recall the experimental rules well enough to know if they got better or worse, or just moved sideways.


Edit - on topic though, the Obsidian Knight isn't anything to do with forgeworld, and treated as an apoc only unit it isn't even out of place.

Undeadpank
29-04-2014, 19:48
What is the points cost of the Obsidian Knight?