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LOF
20-06-2006, 07:29
This is the latest Legion of Middle Earth News

http://www.thepalantir.org/photopost/data/583/bolterlome.jpg

Find this image here: http://www.thepalantir.org/photopost/data/583/bolterlome.jpg


Elven from TLA was at Conflict South today, and had the chance to look at the Legions of Middle-earth book. Legions of Middle-earth contains the Name, Wargear and Points Cost of all models incluing those in the next few supplements.

He reports that the book is split into various themed sections, such as Rivendell, Harad, Far Harad, etc. Each themed location has a box containing allies that can be associated with them. There are restrictions on various amounts of things, in a similar way to a Warhammer 40k codex.

This is a list of what he was able to confirm are coming in the future, due to their apperance with wargear and points cost:

Rohan
-Helm Hammerhand
-Helm's Guard

Dwarves
-Dwarf Rangers
-Dwarf Mining Teams
-Dwarf Ballista

Harad, Far Harad and Umbar
-Black Numenorians
-Corsairs of Umbar (including a Peter Jackson pirate model)
-Serpent Riders and Serpent Guard
-Half Trolls of Far Harad

Elves
-Elven Chariots
-Elf bodyguards
-Celebrimbor

Gondor
-Fiefdoms of Gondor

Misc
-Werewolves
-Dragons
-Drakes
-Beornings
-A Vampire

These will be coming over the next 2+ years in a selection of supplements. There is probably more to come from others who were at Conflict, so look out for more info on the future of LOTR releases.

In addition, there will be rules for fighting in different locations, similar to those published in White Dwarf. These will include such things as the Ash Clouds in Mordor, and the in-game effects.

Thanks again to Elven for the news.


With compilments from the news team at The Palantir (www.thepalantir.org).

Evisss
20-06-2006, 07:50
Thanks for the info. Apparently these miniatures will be then released later if im correct.

KingM
20-06-2006, 09:43
Half trolls sound interesting

Elven chariots would hopefully be great models

Drakes and dragons, what fun :D

Shadowheart
20-06-2006, 12:01
Given GW's less than brilliant "interpretations" of Middle-Earth so far I'm very sceptical about how they'll handle some of that stuff, but we'll have to wait and see.

Contrary to what was rumoured, it seems LoME won't be featuring mass-combat rules after all.

Elladan
20-06-2006, 13:00
Kain (?) said in TLA that there are coming armoured and heavy armoured elnaith. Cant wait for them!:)

N0-1_H3r3
20-06-2006, 13:12
Given GW's less than brilliant "interpretations" of Middle-Earth so far I'm very sceptical about how they'll handle some of that stuff, but we'll have to wait and see.

Contrary to what was rumoured, it seems LoME won't be featuring mass-combat rules after all.
Apparently, mass-combat rules are intended, but we'll be waiting quite a while before we see any of them - at least until around the time of the RoTK sourcebook. GW is reportedly cautious about moving in that direction (and thus 'closing the gap' in game style between WFB and LoTR), but feels that it needs to in order to keep the game alive... as a result, GW seem to be approaching it cautiously.

Gondorian
20-06-2006, 13:44
The fact that every model moves individually is one of the best parts of LOTR. However, it does tend to slow things down in the really big games.
If games workshop work out the big game rules then it will be interesting to see how they speed up the combat phase while still retaining some of LOTR's individuality.

Given the new units, all of the dwarven players must be delerious with exitement.

Dr Death
20-06-2006, 14:34
I'm with shadowheart, nothing sounds directly contradictary but GW has something of a track record and i fear they'll "do a" battle for middle earth 2- That is expanding on the game with halfway decent concepts but done terribly.

Dr Death

LOF
20-06-2006, 15:57
In answer to those who may worry that GW have gone off the plot with the vampire and werewolves, please consult the Silmarillion. Everything is covered by some book of Tolkien's. Hope this clears up any confusion.

Elladan
20-06-2006, 16:10
Now I'm wondering when did GW get the rights for Silmarillion...

LOF
20-06-2006, 17:17
I believe they do have the rights to the Simarillion and to an extent the Hobbit but it's very murky water as they say.

Gondorian
20-06-2006, 17:50
Now I'm wondering when did GW get the rights for Silmarillion...

Quiet!
Tolkein will here you!

I'm really just hoping that they make some very decent miniatures when they release the werewolves, vampires etc.

The dragons particularly.

Marauder
20-06-2006, 18:19
Apparently, mass-combat rules are intended, but we'll be waiting quite a while before we see any of them - at least until around the time of the RoTK sourcebook. GW is reportedly cautious about moving in that direction (and thus 'closing the gap' in game style between WFB and LoTR), but feels that it needs to in order to keep the game alive... as a result, GW seem to be approaching it cautiously.

I'd say "cautious" is a big understatement. Right from day 1 of LOTR they have provided us with very affordable plastic troops, which were meant to depict large battles. Four and a half years later we are still waiting for them to deliver some rules to go with all those figs...

LOTR is absolutely dead in our area, and I was hoping this would be the supplement to revive it. I guess I'll have to wait another year :(

Elladan
20-06-2006, 19:26
Quiet!
Tolkein will here you!

I'm really just hoping that they make some very decent miniatures when they release the werewolves, vampires etc.

The dragons particularly.

I don't really care about werewolves, vampires and such 1st and 2nd age thingys. If they ever make a dragon, I hope that they would make only Smaug for The Hobbit Scenarios , if they can get the rights for that.


I believe they do have the rights to the Simarillion and to an extent the Hobbit but it's very murky water as they say.

They have only the Hobbit rights, but not for LotRSBG, only for BoFA. And Christopher Tolkien isn't giving any rights for any works of his dad that he has edited.

Eldanar
20-06-2006, 19:33
I have been waiting, and waiting and waiting for large scale mass combat rules for LOTR (not a fan of skirmish games per se, at all).

And I guess I shall continue to wait...

Oberon
20-06-2006, 19:35
Now then, why is anything *not* in the six books of LOTR 'bad' and generally unwanted/'WHFB'? I personally take happily anything for the game they give us. As long as it is something with reasonable rules and nice models. That 'Dwarf ballistas?? N000000!!! Where's teh bridge I'm gonna kill myself?!?!111 GW sux0r"-nonsense starts to irritate. It began with elven twins(or maybe before) and they're not bad either. Stop whining, play or don't but don't spoil the fun of others.

Gondorian
20-06-2006, 22:31
I have been waiting, and waiting and waiting for large scale mass combat rules for LOTR (not a fan of skirmish games per se, at all).

And I guess I shall continue to wait...

For me, the skirmish style is what makes LOTR a really good game, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

There has been a great deal of debate over some of the new models which will come out with LoME. I'm withholding judgment until I see the models.
From my instincts, I think all of the dwarven additions are a good move. Every army needs scouts, dwarves would definately have miners anyway and the balista would be just the thing for dwarven strongholds. Again though, I'll see the models before I completely decide.

Shadowheart
21-06-2006, 07:05
Now then, why is anything *not* in the six books of LOTR 'bad' and generally unwanted/'WHFB'? I personally take happily anything for the game they give us. As long as it is something with reasonable rules and nice models. That 'Dwarf ballistas?? N000000!!! Where's teh bridge I'm gonna kill myself?!?!111 GW sux0r"-nonsense starts to irritate. It began with elven twins(or maybe before) and they're not bad either. Stop whining, play or don't but don't spoil the fun of others.

That "I'm going to put words in an unspecified group's mouth, phrased in the stupidest sterreotypical noob kid style, as if that's an arguement"-nonsense has long since become irritating. If you want everyone to get along, you'll have to do your part, which includes not dismissing the expression of a point of view you disagree with as whining. It seems to me you just want everyone to get along with you.

Apparently you're comfortable not having any standards, but that's not for everyone. I find being picky very rewarding, especially when conciderable investments of time and money are concerned. Now to me it's obvious that a miniatures range and accompanying game based on the LotR movies and books shouldn't, indeed can't include things that don't fit with those movies and books. What fits and what doesn't is a matter of interpretation, but I think that "anything goes" is a very poor interpretation indeed.

By what we have to go on so far regarding the new models referred to in LoME (which isn't a lot), I wouldn't say there's anything that definitely doesn't fit with LotR. Nothing that jumps out as wrong like Orc shamans, "Avenger" bolt throwers and Isengard Trolls. There is however a bunch of stuff that will take more skill to handle than I believe GW's team possesses. Like I said, we'll have to wait and see.


Regarding the mass-combat rules, if they ever do them I really hope it will be done by Rick Priestley. If anyone at GW can find a way to make the game cover the same ground as Warhammer without compromising the elegance of the rules, I'd say it's him. Personally I'd rather that LotR stuck to what it does, but it seems many people are bent on having it do the same thing other wargame systems do.

Gondorian
21-06-2006, 09:09
I'd only really find mass combat rules useful for recreations of the last alliance and similar battles or for organising group games with 6 players plus. They'd be fun to have but I think I'd still play the current points level more frequently.

Dr Death
21-06-2006, 10:03
Yes, again shadowheart wonderfully pre-empts my views on the matter of what should and shouldnt be in the game. As you say Shadowheart, there isnt anything there that directly opposes Tolkien but is going to require an added element of tact to make it work well.

As for mass combat i've been playing around with a few ideas myself for a very morphous form of mass battles, if anyone is so desparate they would care for me to expose them and maybe beat them into some form of ruleset for use untill GW do it themselves i'll happily post my mental ramblings.

Dr Death

Paddy
21-06-2006, 13:30
I'll never object to seeing ome home-grown rules :D

Messiah
21-06-2006, 13:37
Actually, I kind of agree with Oberon, but its not a Lotr specific problem, people everyone (yeah, admit it, even you *points finger*) would like to be part of the design team, and decide what gets published. The problem arises when GW publishes something that people dont like, the people that dislike it are the ones that are heard most.

I dont think anything that GW has published so far is that bad, in fact in some areas, they have even done better than the films (dunlendings and easterlings anyone?). So, lets just see where thing lead, shall we? :)

Eldanar
21-06-2006, 15:12
As for in the movies/books or not debate...

I'm a purist. I choose not to use stuff that I think has no place in the genre. With that said, I don't care what other people might use, that is wholely up to their own tastes and style. This is purely a personal preferance on my part, which I impose solely on myself.

As to why I'd like to see a mass combat system:

1. I like the LOTR genre better than WHFB;
2. I like the LOTR miniatures better than WHFB; and
3. I don't like the current WHFB rules.

Oberon
21-06-2006, 15:32
Whoever replied to my post first: I'm actually very happy of LOmE because of those standards for theming the army, no more boromir+khazad guard armies \0/ at least in tournaments that is. I'll wait until I make my mind about those new models. The thing I'm worried about is, everything published in LOTR range is treated(or at least is looks like it, no one seems to be happy) as crap and WHFB-like, which is bad. I'll shutup, don't you worry.

Gutta
22-06-2006, 20:28
I don't play LotR (sometimes I'm tempted to, but I find the genre difficult to play in, see below)
I wanted to play LotR a while ago, with an army themed around Aragorn the King and his army. This would mean it was based after the books ended. then I realised that because LotR is based off a book/ film, it can never advance therefore my army would never be able to play in a campiagn (I like my armies background to be realistic). A release of LoME could mean that since it explores more, I would have more stuff to write a themed army about, and the battles could (in my opinion) actually effect Middle earth instead of it being a historical reenactment

Gondorian
22-06-2006, 21:54
It doesn't have to be a reenactment. Only so little of the book covers the actual battles that there is plenty of room for your own stories. You can also fight before the main story, there were many large battles won and lost that were build ups to the war of the ring. See how badly Osgiliath was trashed.
There are also smaller parts of the big battles, like the Gondorian scouts encountering orc parties on the road to Mordor, that are not described in any detail.

You can play before or after the main event with total freedom over what the battle is about. If you have a group of friends you can organise your own campaigns be they in the second age or the fourth.
Why not base a campaign on an idea of Frodo claiming the ring as his own, Sauron inevitably gets it, now the free people must fight all over again merely to survive.

There is no set way of playing LOTR, only your imagination and number of opponents sets any limits.

Mars
26-06-2006, 15:40
I love large historical type battles. Fantasy is a bit disapointing in this respect (redicilously limited mobility). LotR on the other hand has too much mobility (you try moving 400 models one by one, never mind resolving the fights).

Plus LotR lacks a bit a unit sense (Uruks in front, Harad spears second rank, Easterling pikes third rank, wtf...).

So I am very excited about this new addition, I'm hoping it'll take the game to a next level, and make it a competitor for Fantasy large scale battles.

I'm also really curious as to how the rules will work exactly, any rumours on that? Fantasy-like unit vs unit? Very exciting times...

And these unit formations: I reread the battle at Pelenor Fields the other day, and I loved the description of groups of Haradrim, rallying from the Rohirrim charges around their Mūmaks.

Will you get to make mixed groups (shields+spears+bows), and what about heroes (add a Shaman and the entire group benefits from Fury, regardless of actual distance to the Shaman?), how will might work in these unit vs unit combats?

Shadowheart
26-06-2006, 15:59
Ehm, sorry to burst your bubble there, but Legions of Middle-Earth will not contain any mass-combat rules. It was rumoured that it would, but erroneously as it turns out. We were just speculating on whether GW would someday write such rules.

Mars
26-06-2006, 16:52
Damn, thanks for the info. In any case, the lists will help a lot (no more Warriors of Minas Tirith + 2nd Age High Elves, yay :D).

Tancred II von Quenelles
06-07-2006, 22:09
In answer to those who may worry that GW have gone off the plot with the vampire and werewolves, please consult the Silmarillion. Everything is covered by some book of Tolkien's. Hope this clears up any confusion.
+1 -no vampires in Tolkien

LOF
07-07-2006, 13:31
There are some mentions of vampires in the Silmarrillion.

Brandir
10-07-2006, 11:36
I can't find any references to Vampires in LOTR, but there are in The Silmarillion:

Chapter 19 Of Beren and Lúthien tells us that Sauron 'took the form of a vampire' and that Draugluin, the messenger of Sauron, flew to Angband in the form of a vampire.

rkunisch
10-07-2006, 19:47
Where is a reference of Elven chariots? I do not remember to read about them in any of Tolkien's work.

Have fun,

Rolf.

Gondorian
10-07-2006, 20:35
Everyone brace yourselves. The chariots that caused such heated discussion on the gw forums have now come. I'd advise people look at the forums on there first before launching into the issue here.
Just my advise

Brandir
10-07-2006, 20:48
Where is a reference of Elven chariots? I do not remember to read about them in any of Tolkien's work.

Have fun,

Rolf.

I can't find any reference to Elf Chariots in any of the Professor's works either.

giacomo
16-07-2006, 04:45
I've seen the book and lots of the dwarf stuff mentioned isn't there, but there is some other stuff such as an army of angmar and more little people(not hobbits) all the items in the LoME are sechedualed to be realeased over a five year period(so don't hold your breath fore some things)

slaughteredbull
16-07-2006, 16:29
I don't know why people moan so much about GW expanding upon the books/films. Tolkien wrote the appendices so others could expand upon his work, yet when someone finaly does everyone moans about it.

Shadowheart
16-07-2006, 17:44
Tolkien poured an awful lot of time, consideration, expertise and love into the creation of Middle-Earth, and it shows. GW's just making up stuff to sell miniatures, and that shows too. You can't even begin to take that seriously as expansions on Tolkien's work. Just look at the names GW has come up with, do you see any linguistic basis to them?

I like Tolkien's work, and that of the movie's makers, and I'd also like anything that can truly expand on that. So far, GW simply hasn't been good enough, though I don't expect otherwise. There's things they do well, and things they do poorly, I'd just prefer they had the sense to stick to the first category.

By the way, GW's put an ad for LoME here (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/legions/extras/preview/default.htm).

slaughteredbull
17-07-2006, 12:18
Yet they all have been approved by the Tolkien Estate. I'm sorry having just recently played the pile that is Battle for Middle-Earth 2, and comparing it to how the GW tabletop game is done and I'm quite happy that GW have gone the way they have with things. As for linguistic basis, its a game, its a bit unfair to expect anyone at GW to come anywhere near Tolkiens linguistic prowess.

Shadowheart
18-07-2006, 09:52
Yet they all have been approved by the Tolkien Estate.

Who or what are "they" again?

Basically, your arguements are "It could've been worse" and "It couldn't have been expected to be better". I don't disagree with either assertion, in fact I already pointed the latter out in my previous post. But it doesn't follow that GW's stuff is good, or that there's no reason to complain.

Brandir
18-07-2006, 10:10
The Tolkien Estate does not get any approval on what GW put in LoME. Why? Simply because the Estate does not control the rights to LOTR and The Hobbit.

It is a mixture of Tolkien Enterprises and New Line.