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View Full Version : Fluff doesn't always equal rules...



Marshal Lazarus
20-06-2006, 21:44
Call it an epiphany, but while reading through the Black Templar codex just out of boredom I started noticing the entry for the Emperor's Champion wasn't really on line with the history background they give you a few pages earlier.

In summary, the background states that after receiving "the vision", the new Emperor's Champion is blessed with the Litanies of Hate. Wouldn't that mean that the EC should have counted as having the LoH rule or do you think it was just a way of explaining his god-like WS of 6?

Then the Blood Angel codex: Moriar the Chosen. His history basically says that he has been completely taken by the thirst and that he has to practically be chained when not in battle. Considering that he's completely submitted, wouldn't that stand that he would always fail his Black Rage test and always move an extra D6? If so, his rules don't specify it. Did I miss an FAQ or clarification on this?

Deadite
20-06-2006, 21:49
congratulations, you've reached an epiphany many of us have already come to and accepted as being part of the world that is GW.

cav da man
20-06-2006, 23:00
ive noticed how green the grass is recently.....i swear it wasnt that green before..
Anyway yes this is a normal thing, the fluff is supposed to be dramatic and descriptive but the rules cant keep up without destroying the equilibrium of trying to keep all armies at roughly the same level of damage

Mikari
20-06-2006, 23:15
Fluff wise Space marines should send in a squad (maybe two) and a tank or they should send in an entire company.

Marines should be worth 100 guardsmen fluff wise too.

Shall we continue?

Think of it like playing Chess or a game. You can't really have just ten soldiers and bishops and stuff fighting, so they give them all special rules to make the game play better and be more fun.

In game's cut scenes the hero always kicks a huge amount of ass with moves you can never use. But ingame moves have to be balanced and evened out, so you can't do this or it would be impossible to make it fair and balanced.

Hence Fluff is to read and enjoy, games are to be fair for all so everyone enjoys.

Lyinar
21-06-2006, 00:03
Another Fluff/Rules Disconnect:

Lost and the Damned Traitors, if taken as compulsory choices, must have fifteen models, no more, no less. Now, as the squad size for Imperial Guard is 10, and 15 isn't divisible by any Chaos God's favoured number, how the sacred FETH do you get that as a squad size for Imperial Guardsman who've betrayed the Imperium?

Minister
21-06-2006, 00:33
Marines should be worth 10 standard troops at the strategic level, according to Dorn himself. Anything more is inflation.

Ardathair
21-06-2006, 04:40
Fluff is fiction (or science fiction), one person is the hero or one side is the good guys, the others are the protagonists. This does not translate well to a game where there is a person playing each side, they both can't be the good guys or the heroes. Fiction, to draw and capture audiance attention, focus one one or a small group against the enemy. Again doesn't work well as rules for a game. Second Edition A.K.A. Hero Hammer is an example.

Movie Marines and Kill Team special rules are closer to what you find in fluff, but they balance the game purely on a quality vs. quantity axis, as oppossed to the more even footing of the typical game.

Ubik_Lives
21-06-2006, 05:41
According to fluff, your army will always win, no matter the odds. Marine against Guard Platoon, Firewarrior against Marine Company, it doesn't matter. Winning by massive amounts makes for good story telling, right? Right?

The original poster made some nice points about the differences of Special Characters between their rules and their fluff. I think this is valid, as those characters won't have a large amount of fluff to define themselves, and so the rules given to them would serve as an indication of what they are like in the fluff world. Contradictions there serve to muddy how those characters are percieved. I guess it comes down to the desire to only have one or two special rules for each character so you aren't bogged down in rules for one model in your army.



A guy that doesn't have to sleep, can fight 24 hours a day, can survive on food that is poisonous to humans, can heal injuries at nearly miraculous rates, has incredible resistance to the psychological trauma of combat such that fear itself is nearly an alien emotion, and stronger, faster, fitter, and more disciplined, and is backed up by the resources of a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, strikes me as being more efficient than one hundred conventional soldiers at the tasks of conventional warfare.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but even if you were to give me, say, The Terminator from the movies, I would still take the hundred men. The Terminator would be even better than a Marine, as the it does away with the inherent weakness of flesh, blood, and vital organs. But at the end of the day, he can only fire one gun, can only be in one place, and it only takes one missile or plasma gun, or whatever to take him down.

(Also, in the table top game, Marines are also stronger, tougher, better trained, and better equiped than IG, and know no fear. I let the one to ten ratio slide because maybe the IG do have another three armies worth sleeping, injured, defending their outpost, or acting as support personell. But a hundred to one just sounds Herohammer.)

Rypher
21-06-2006, 06:03
All right. To support the fluff not equaling rules, read the necron story about how they annihilated the guardsmen. It says a "ghostly wind had a robed figrue and a squad of troops appear and cleave through the men with their graceful scythes" or something along those lines. This is saying that a necron lord with VoD can take with him Pariahs. But this would also mean that pariahs, being half necron and half human, would be more of necrons and fall to their rules. (WBB, Monolith warp, etc.)

Sanjuro
21-06-2006, 07:50
Another Fluff/Rules Disconnect:

Lost and the Damned Traitors, if taken as compulsory choices, must have fifteen models, no more, no less. Now, as the squad size for Imperial Guard is 10, and 15 isn't divisible by any Chaos God's favoured number, how the sacred FETH do you get that as a squad size for Imperial Guardsman who've betrayed the Imperium?

They give up the Imperial organizational doctrine and instead band together in large-ish mobs. 15 is just an arbitrary number that is greater than 10, to properly establish the point that these fellows no longer fight as an Imperial formation.

Mikari
21-06-2006, 07:56
Personally I'd say it represents the horde nature of Chaos better. They're mixed in with cultists and general scum alike using looted gear. They all act as 1 large swarm where as the IG act as single units linked together.

A "real" traitor group could be bunchs of people crammed together roughly and shoved in the general direction with no numbers known.

Sekhmet
21-06-2006, 08:00
Another Fluff/Rules Disconnect:

Lost and the Damned Traitors, if taken as compulsory choices, must have fifteen models, no more, no less. Now, as the squad size for Imperial Guard is 10, and 15 isn't divisible by any Chaos God's favoured number, how the sacred FETH do you get that as a squad size for Imperial Guardsman who've betrayed the Imperium?

In base 6 math, 15 = 23, 2*3 = 6
In base 7 math, 15 = 21, 21 is divisible by 7
In base 8 math, 15 = 17, 1+7=8
In base 9 math, 15 = 16, I have no clue

The average of 6, 7, 8 and 9 is 7.5. Since 7.5 isn't a whole number, 7.5*2 = 15. Maybe that's it?
Maybe that it's Chaos and it's random and weird and that's just how it is?

LoerdofallJoy
21-06-2006, 08:55
Marines should be worth 10 standard troops at the strategic level, according to Dorn himself. Anything more is inflation.

Yes, but Dorn was an idiot, and if he had rules, they'd be idiotic to...

If 40k was fluffy we'd have squat tyranids ... the horror!

WhiteCounsel
21-06-2006, 16:52
squat tyranids
Never say those words again...

IJW
21-06-2006, 17:05
What, like the Ork/Genestealer hybrids that were actually released as models? :)

Ian

Griffin
21-06-2006, 17:06
You Should Be Burned. Qed

WhiteCounsel
21-06-2006, 17:08
What, like the Ork/Genestealer hybrids that were actually released as models?
I can't remember those, but I really hope you're joking.

Shaper Shakra
21-06-2006, 17:21
Biovores....*shudders*

IJW
21-06-2006, 17:27
Actually, after a bit of searching around, it seems my memory is faulty - someone's conversions were featured in WD 135 - GW didn't actually sell specific models.

But the conversions were featured because that issue had bits of the army list from Freebooterz, which had Ork-Genestealer hybrids as a specific troop type! The models were mostly a mixture of plastic Orks and the extremely crappy Genestealer hybrid plastics from the Spacehulk expansion.

Ian

"Dey are not propa Orkses, dey been takin over by da Bug-eyez!"

Apollyon
21-06-2006, 17:30
Yes they made them and I have one.

I can't remember those, but I really hope you're joking.

IJW
21-06-2006, 17:39
Ooh, I was right the first time!

langolas
21-06-2006, 17:39
Zoats, anyone? :D

Apollyon
21-06-2006, 17:42
Herohammer is a myth. All games can be rules lawered and abused but second ed did more closely match the background. 40k now has such a wide gap between background and tabletop I no long play. I'd rather play Inquistor where the back more closly matches the rules or FOW which does likewise.


Fluff is fiction (or science fiction), one person is the hero or one side is the good guys, the others are the protagonists. This does not translate well to a game where there is a person playing each side, they both can't be the good guys or the heroes. Fiction, to draw and capture audiance attention, focus one one or a small group against the enemy. Again doesn't work well as rules for a game. Second Edition A.K.A. Hero Hammer is an example.

Movie Marines and Kill Team special rules are closer to what you find in fluff, but they balance the game purely on a quality vs. quantity axis, as oppossed to the more even footing of the typical game.

Apollyon
21-06-2006, 17:50
The Movie Marines were a parody that unfortinatly put a spotlight on the mismatch of rules to fluff. The problem is the mindset that armies should about the same numbers of mini's on the table. This is pattenly untrue 40K especially Space Marines represent the pinanncle of asymetric warfare. Were the rules correct 1 ten man tactial squad would face what is 1000 points of guard. But then you get into things like dice granularity and game design/theory and that's a whole different kettle of fish.


[quote=Nurglitch]snip

Take the so-called "movie-marines" for example. I don't think that they represent the fluff very well. Sure, the fluff represents space marines cinematically (a polite term for 'about as realistic as Arnold Scharzenegger's "Commando"'), but upping their stats doesn't do anything interesting.

As an alternative, I've suggested that the marine player be allowed to spend points on guaranteed dice results; say at 10pts a result. A single squad of tactical space marines with eighty guaranteed "6" results in a 1500 point game is a powerful force to contend with. Spend more points to allow the marines to break up into three-marine fire teams, and you get something that resembles the worst that the Black Library can write.

quote]

WhiteCounsel
21-06-2006, 18:03
Ooh, I was right the first time!Wow. I never would have guessed that to be true...

IJW
21-06-2006, 19:50
Zoats, anyone? :D
40k or WFB? Multi-part model or all-in-one? Painted or unpainted?

:cool:

Vandur Last
22-06-2006, 05:49
Hey Apollyon, wheres your sig quote from? It sounds way badass.

Shinguuji
22-06-2006, 05:56
The fluff matches the rules exactly. Take Marines, for example. Supposely because one marine is held to be equivalent to one hundred conventional human troops, one marine should be able to engage one hundred guardmen in a game of Warhammer 40,000.

......................



Agreed, you make a lot of sense here.

Remember that a war is not just about the fight itself, it takes marching there, logistics, regrouping, support engineers, rearming, rations, etc.

The thing is, you can throw a bunch of marines into a world and not really care about them, they don't really need cooks, they don't really need much medical attention, given their quick raiding style, i doubt they need any support engineers, even if they need them, i'd think they rather just leave their vehicles there and climb whatever obstacle there is, they're also insanely disciplined and have high endurance, they don't need a commisionar to beat them into submission, they can do everything on their own, and thus work independently, allowing for far more flexibility. Plus, they can fight totally without vehicles, which although might not be advisable, would enable them to get to all the strategic but hard-to-reach places first. Plus, marines are experienced/smart enough to work in a 10 man squad, or even a single marine on his own is viable!

While in combat, the marines might not be worth 10 guardsmen, but think about the inconvenience of leading guard. They need lots of support, they need to set up base camp, which includes tents, toilets, cooks, combat engineers, logistics men. Marching there is a pain, so much equipment and stuff, plus soldiers get tired more easily, and they can't go all the hard-to-reach places. Guardsmen need to operate as an army, not as small units, which is impossible save for the elite commandos. Also, there is a huge chain of command in place, many orders WILL get lost half way down the chain, and breaking the guardsmen into independent units will cause all hell to break lose as the discipline goes to hell along with the battle. Junior officers will try all sorts of bravado stunts with their men, stupid things like forcing them to march hours without rest or food, and no one can stop him so far away from the chain, while doing without an officer is also very bad for discipline. Senior officers will bicker and fight for prestige, and do stupid things too, except they do it openly this time

well, in the end, i would say the fluff justifies to fluff, but the fluff is just not seen in gameplay, i mean, who can tell how easily your 1500pt marine army took to get there, or how hard it was for your guard army to reach there?

Sanjuro
22-06-2006, 08:28
Lots of smart stuff.

Very good post, Shinguuji. I just wanted to quote you for truth. Armies just don't magically appear on the battlefield (well, some armies do - space marines almost do - but not conventional armies like Guard). They exist in a context.

Apollyon
22-06-2006, 16:13
Boondock Saints ...you've never seen it?


Hey Apollyon, wheres your sig quote from? It sounds way badass.