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Mikari
21-06-2006, 01:36
Am I the only person who would like to slap close combat Blood angels? Since when did people trying not to go insane with blood lust run head first into close combat over and over?

Last time I checked the fluff the blood angels used jump packs and long range weapons to take people apart. They get in and get out quickly and don't rush head first into melee as most people play the army.

Yet I rarely see blood angels armies with jump packs or any squad which isn't ment to charge head first into people.

So WTF happened or did they just decide that special rules would be more fun than a real blood angel army based on honour and not going berserk?

Ares
21-06-2006, 01:43
The REAL Blood Angel Codex is cleaverly covered over by the Black Templars logo with a few new silly rules thrown in.

As for rules the BT's have taken over the place of the BA's & the BA's are pretty much the Imperiums version of the World Eaters :(

I too want the CLASSIC Blood Angels back that on occasions go nuts.... only in the fluff but they still retain the Death Company for flavour.

Marshal Lazarus
21-06-2006, 01:56
Didn't BA used to be able to take jump squads as troops a long time ago?

I would like to see that.

The Dude
21-06-2006, 02:23
Am I the only person who would like to slap close combat Blood angels?

No. No you are not.


Since when did people trying not to go insane with blood lust run head first into close combat over and over?

Last time I checked the fluff the blood angels used jump packs and long range weapons to take people apart. They get in and get out quickly and don't rush head first into melee as most people play the army.

Yet I rarely see blood angels armies with jump packs or any squad which isn't ment to charge head first into people.

So WTF happened or did they just decide that special rules would be more fun than a real blood angel army based on honour and not going berserk?

Preaching to the quior there brother.


The REAL Blood Angel Codex is cleaverly covered over by the Black Templars logo with a few new silly rules thrown in.

Oh, that had better be a ******** joke man!!!


I too want the CLASSIC Blood Angels back that on occasions go nuts.... only in the fluff but they still retain the Death Company for flavour.

i think I've said this in another thread, but I HATE the way Blood Angels go nuts in the heat of battle. The original background had them go nuts BEFORE the battle and the Chaplains rounded them up into the Death Company. Why do I have to take them in EVERY SINGLE GAME??? If they've got enough time to re-spray their armour, they've got enough time to be sent somewhere where their "talents" are better suited. I mean, we're sneaking in behind enemy lines to destroy a vital target, and we're trailing a bunch of frothing loonies. :wtf:?? Make them a 0-1 "pay for" unit and get rid of the black rage rule and I'll be happy. We can keep the red thirst just to make them a little more different though.


Didn't BA used to be able to take jump squads as troops a long time ago?

I would like to see that.

Only when every other SM army could in like 2nd Edition.

In conclusion, let me reiterate...

BLOOD ANGELS ARE NOT A CLOSE COMBAT ARMY!!!

*pant, pant, pant*

Sorry for that...

Kahadras
21-06-2006, 02:24
Didn't BA used to be able to take jump squads as troops a long time ago?

I would like to see that.


I would prefer to see that for the Raven guard to be honest. BA really should be the chapter that is the most close combat orientated (followed by the Black templar and Space Wolves).

Kahadras

Mikari
21-06-2006, 02:32
I would prefer to see that for the Raven guard to be honest. BA really should be the chapter that is the most close combat orientated (followed by the Black templar and Space Wolves).

Kahadras

Care to explain why when other than Death company and veterans no other units have ever been called close combat monsters?

The closest is fluff were one guy mentions the blood angels went berserker because a chalice of blood was spilt, so they ripped a daemon into peices with their bare hands.

Maybe I should also point out Blood Angels held the Imperial palace almost single handedly in the heresy. They were all on the walls fighting to the death with bolters, the only one who really aimed for close combat was the flying primache (who's name I can't spell) who kicked ten shades of **** out of everyone.

Pre Third edition Blood angels were always a codex chapter who had special veterans and an optional death company. The veterans were elite jump packers and the death company was small and deadly, but rarely used fluff wise because they were so uncontrolable.

The average blood angel might feel a twitch once in a while and need to goto a gym to vent his rage, but most don't magically lose it or they lose it and never come back.

"Codex but with a tragic secret they must hide" was the old fluff. Now it's "Please ignore the guys in black, we just include them so we don't like racist with our blonde hair and blue eyes.. ahem yes..."

adreal
21-06-2006, 03:09
"Codex but with a tragic secret they must hide"

thats now taken souly by the dakr angles, and GW wants all armies to have a different feel (why they make umptdeen dosen space marines armies then I'll never know)

Yes Blood Angles should go back to how they used to be, but that will never happen as n00bs see crazy loonies in power armour and go 'cool, and even better they're the good guys' and play them.

sadly if you want a characterful first founding chapter, blood angels are not for you, which is sad

The Dude
21-06-2006, 03:28
BA really should be the chapter that is the most close combat orientated (followed by the Black templar and Space Wolves).

Kahadras

I'm going to patiently ignore this with my fingers in my ears :).

Buddha777
21-06-2006, 03:29
No. No you are not.
i think I've said this in another thread, but I HATE the way Blood Angels go nuts in the heat of battle. The original background had them go nuts BEFORE the battle and the Chaplains rounded them up into the Death Company. Why do I have to take them in EVERY SINGLE GAME??? If they've got enough time to re-spray their armour, they've got enough time to be sent somewhere where their "talents" are better suited. I mean, we're sneaking in behind enemy lines to destroy a vital target, and we're trailing a bunch of frothing loonies. :wtf:?? Make them a 0-1 "pay for" unit and get rid of the black rage rule and I'll be happy. We can keep the red thirst just to make them a little more different though.
/Agree

I don't play blood angels but I love their fluff (old fluff at least), and have the unfortunate problem of facing them all the time. The whole death company/black rage thing really bothers me at a fluff level. I mean, khorne berserkers seem more sane than BA sometimes with their current rules. I think paying for a death company is the best option. I would justify it as you are taking a few troops out of confinement to add some punch to your army, not half my army went crazy before a battle so we paint our armor black. Plus I thought the whole black rage thing was a rarity. It was supposed to be something all Blood Angels will face one day, but not something that was implied to happen on a daily basis. Fluff wise, in principle at least, the blood angels have vampires, angels, and genetically engineer super soldiers whats not to like? I just hate the move towards the BA as imperial sanctioned, frothing from the mouth, killers that can't keep a lascannon leveled at a foe and not use it to charge into someone. I mean, their older fluff suggested an older, calmer, and wise chapter that thought just as well of learning as battle, but was plauged with a curse that tested their faith (and flesh) to the emperor and their chapter. The current rules suggest something much more ridiculous.

(pants) END RANT

Kahadras
21-06-2006, 03:59
I'm going to patiently ignore this with my fingers in my ears .


Well it only stands to reason. BA do lean more towards close combat than other chapters (as they always have). Even back before the Horus heresy they were acknowledged to rival the World Eaters (so it only stands to reason that they shared the same bent). After the Heresy the death of their primarch, Sanguinius, had a massive impact on the chapter and led to their 'unstable' nature.

Note that in my statement I never mentioned the Black company or the rest of the list of problems that people have with the current list. I am merely saying that there is no point in having a seperate book for the Blood Angels unless they stand apart from other chapters (otherwise just build them from the SM codex).

Dark angles, Black Templar and Space Wolves diverge quite significantly from the more codex chapters. Having said this I want to see a lot of improvements in the next codex. Toning down the Death company, removing the stupid 'run forward' idea etc. I want to see a more 'lean and mean' BA codex with an emphasis on close combat (so furious charge and bolt pistol/close combat weapons as upgrades for tactical marines, jump packs for HQ and veteran units). Death company should just become a normal unit that you buy as a HQ squad for the chaplain.

Kahadras

The Dude
21-06-2006, 04:19
I want to see a more 'lean and mean' BA codex with an emphasis on close combat (so furious charge and bolt pistol/close combat weapons as upgrades for tactical marines

No, no, no!!

Blood Angels are a CODEX chapter with regards to structure. That means 6Tactical, 2 Assault and 2 Devestator squads in a standard Company. No BP/CCW options for Tac Squads. Bad Kahadras! :mad:.


jump packs for HQ and veteran units). Death company should just become a normal unit that you buy as a HQ squad for the chaplain.

This stuff, I'm cool with. It gives them a SLIGHT close combat edge, without promoting the sickening "Close Combat Horde" that's popping up everywhere. If you keep the Red thirst rule where they have to pass a Ld test to Sweeping Advance, that makes the Close Combat slightly unpredictable as well.

Mikari
21-06-2006, 04:19
Give me a place you can quote that blood angels were like the world eaters melee wise. Please, I'm begging you to prove it, because everything I've ever read has said the complete opposit.

The rage either sends you totally nuts, having to be chained to the wall nuts, or you fight it and it settles down again. They don't randomly go "LOL LETS RUN AT THEM THEN STOP!!", it just doesn't work that way and never will.

I don't think the Death company should be allowed in anything lower than a 2000 point army. The Blood angels try to hide them away as best they can and the chaplains try to sooth the rage as best they can. Only in the most extreme cases would they ever be lead to war (unless they were already there, in which case it wouldn't be more than a handful and they would mostly be veterans).

Remember the flesh tearers suffer from the rage like the BA rules imply and everyone is dead or near dying. Fighting with them isn't an option for most groups but most would perfer not to. Theres many reports of them going so insane they would rip apart civilians and allies if they ran out of foes. Why the hell would the blood angels use these guys unless it was the only option?

I don't know where you're getting your fluff from, but BA were always extra jump packs and the bolter line type army. They grind you down with bolters then use super charged rhinos and jump packs to finish you off. It's not untill the 3rd edition codex when they started acting like world eaters and space wolves.

Argi
21-06-2006, 07:18
Maybe I should also point out Blood Angels held the Imperial palace almost single handedly in the heresy. They were all on the walls fighting to the death with bolters, the only one who really aimed for close combat was the flying primache (who's name I can't spell) who kicked ten shades of **** out of everyone.


Perhaps I should point out that during the Heresy the blood angel primarch was still alive and hence the chapter were not yet affected by his death?

And just a note fluff wise, I beleive the index astartes article on the BA's mention thier primarch flying into a "Red fury" whenever friends or family were in danger, perhaps this carried through with the gene-seed?

Besides that I'd agree. I'm an avid BA player and play my army in a more "codex" fashion, not just blindly charging ahead.

It would be nice to see the rules reflect the correct nature of the Blood angels on the tabletop.

Arryn
21-06-2006, 07:25
I'd just like to echo the consensus here today! WORD! WORD! WORD! Word to ya mutha!

Lets just hope GW wises up to fans like us, however i'm afraid we are the faithful few!

Mikari
21-06-2006, 07:30
He had a berzerker mode where he'd fight faster and harder yes, but that could be just adrenalin since 40k doesn't mention this much least of all on a primache.

But remember the Blood Angels arn't the type to go AWOL even with a dead primache, they fight for justice and honour, unlike other chapters who fight to maim (wolves) or to get glory (black templars). They would of kept to the rules and fought to honour their primache.

Mortare
21-06-2006, 07:59
Im an avid blood angels player, 12 years of solid support for them and love the fluff and background of them. Yes the new rules have sent them they way of loyalist beserkers against the majority of the fluff, but there are some areas where it still holds true.
Yes the death company fall before deploying for battle, and it is a valid point that if they hae time to repaint then they could go elsewhere- but if this is the only strike then there is no wish to waste the marine and let him fall to the thirst if he can be directed towards an enemy for an 'honourable' death. Also, the veteran blood angels were always protrayed as preferring to fight up close, as is reflected by their preference as assault terminators or fighting up close, not as tactical squads (see codex angels of death). However the rest of the chapter falls into line with the codex astartes and they are shown as your standard composition, no combat weapons or otherwise, just usual boltgun boys.
And has already been said, the were steadfast on the walls of the emperors palace because they were without the flaw then, blood coming from a live and healthy sanguinius, not from the collective of high priests. The rules should reflect the fluff more. Remove the need to rush at opponents, apart from the death company, but we can keep the furious charge- the rush of blood to the head as the marines charge down their opponents, seeking to avenge themselves as they battle their inner daemons. This is more fitting with the idea of tormented and driven marines rather than the frothing beserkers that they seen to be regarded as

Arryn
21-06-2006, 08:05
Hey guys i have started a thread in the Tactics-Army List section as i am interested in seeing the kind of Blood Angel army lists that people use when trying to keep to the "OLD" version of the Blood Angels.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=755825#post755825

Theres the link, please post away!

AmKhaibitu
21-06-2006, 09:02
Actually when they redo the blood angels, I'd like to see the death company be a priced unit, and subject to a version of Holy Rage that made it's debut with the witchhunters.


And I think they should just work on the theme quirks and remove the frothing nutters theme from the army which shouldn't be there.

Colonial Rifle
21-06-2006, 09:53
While I kind of agree that BA have gone too far down the 'Imperial berzerker' route, but I don't think a knee jerk, "make them pure codex" is the way to go. In that case Codex: Blood Angels is going to be about 3 pages long with a couple of new traits. No thanks - the assault heavy BA is here to stay.

Question is, what theme for them? Personally, I'd like to see jump packs - lots of them. What about tac squads with Jump packs (maybe no heavy weapons options, but 2 assault weapons)? Bolter armed jump infantry, with the possibility of buying true grit might be interesting.

Black rage - currently a bit crazy, but how about allowing vet Sergeants to buy a specific item to calm them. Of course, that would up the cost of a squad, but allow players to run a 'old style' BA force. Oh, and no black rage on vehicles, cause that is idiotic.

Death company - costed unit available when you buy a Chaplain. Simple.

Blood Angel scouts - how about assault weapons here? Make them stand out from the crowd.

boogle
21-06-2006, 17:33
According to the Sabretooth HH background (written by Alan Merritt, so might be classed as official), the BA went nuts before Sanguinius died, when he was severely injured on Signus Prime, they went mad and slaughtered the daemons there en masse, when Sanguinius recovered, he detected that soemthing was amiss with his Legion, this became totally apparent when he died (I imagine we'll see them rampaging in the last of the Horus Heresy books written by Dan)

Mortare
21-06-2006, 17:41
The sabertooth history seems to be at odds with alot of the older work (old news i know), but from the hints in false gods i would agree that the theme from sabertooth will be reflected in whichever book covers signus.

Have to say though, im not that keen on the idea of jump pack troops, makes them too expensive for basic line units

boogle
21-06-2006, 17:44
i believe that James Swallow will be covering Signus

The Dude
22-06-2006, 01:07
Huh? Last I heard, the Black Rage comes from subsequent BA recruits having to use Gene Seed taken from Sanguinus' corpse due to the destruction of their gene bank during the Seige of Terra. They re-live his battle with and death at the hands of Horus, which drives them mad.

THAT story ROCKS!!! It's WAY better than "there was something wrong with them all along..." :rolleyes:

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2006, 01:41
Well, I don't claim to be an expert on BA fluff, but I can look at an army list and see what would work and what wouldn't. For a while there, I really wanted to build a Blood Angel army with 8 jump pack units and scads of Scouts. My main motivation was to school people who complained about Rhino Rush ("You think Rhino Rush is bad? Check this out!"). I already have one SM army though, so I got over it without buying a single BA. Anyhow, with the Furious Charge and the 1-in-6 chance of surging forward, I don't think one can really fault BA players for playing to the army's strength, and that is clearly close combat. That's like castigating Eldar players for using Starcannons...waitaminit...;) Anyhow, if that's an unfluffy way to play BAs, then clearly there's been a disconnect between fluff and rules somewhere in the process of creating the 3rd ed. Codex. I don't think this is terribly unusual for 3rd ed. dexes, though.

Anyhow, I think the DC could remain a randomly-generated unit the way it is now. However, the issues of the free power fists and jump packs should be addressed. The power fists are easy, simply state that a BA can keep any close combat weapons he comes to the DC with instead of allowing Vet Sergeants to get power fists for free. That way, if a Vet Sergeant doesn't have a power fist when you buy him, he doesn't get one in the DC. That would take care of the Naked Vet Syndrome. The jump packs are a little trickier. BA players could simply be required to pay +X points per DC figure for them, but that hardly seems fair if the figure in question comes from an Assault, Bike, or Terminator squad. Perhaps members of such squads could get them for free and members of other squads pay +X points for them. Probably simpler to just have BA players buy DCs outright, I suppose.

Anyhow, I think most BA players would probably support getting rid of the Black Rage. It's a boon if you want to play an assault army that relies on foot and jump pack troops, but a hindrance for any other style of army. It would make it possible to play the BAs more in line with their fluff if they didn't have to contend with the Black Rage. It would also make them easier to play tactically. I once had a World Eaters-playing opponent state that you can't play an army tactically if you can't control your troops. He had just lost a Secure And Control game because his remaining scoring unit (a unit of Chosen Terminators) blew a Blood Rage roll and had to move towards one of my units, instead of sitting where they were. Had that unit remained in position, it would have been able to claim two Loot counters. After its cumpulsory move, it couldn't claim either, which cost him the game.

The Dude
22-06-2006, 03:07
Anyhow, with the Furious Charge and the 1-in-6 chance of surging forward, I don't think one can really fault BA players for playing to the army's strength, and that is clearly close combat.

That's the problem really. It was, I believe, meant to be a disadvantage to Blood Angels forces set up as per Codex (ie stop Devs from firing etc) to offset the inclusion of the Death Company and what is now called Furious Charge. However, it was poorly thought out, as nasty people realised that if they ignore the units that are adversely affected by the disadvantage (ie Devs) they can maximise the advantage (ie kick **** assault power). This has over time led to the assumption that BAs are Combat Wombats and should, therefore *shudder* get BP/CCW options for Tactical Squads.

The only way the "surge forward" rule should stay is if it has a range on it. Eg if within 12" of an enemy you MUST move towards them (the nearest) and assault (therefore not firing rapid fire weapons) with Furious Charge on a D6 roll of 4+. Furious Charge should ONLY come into effect when this test is failed.

Combine this with may NEVER Sweeping Advance for the Red Thirst (yum-o) and you get close combat units that hit hard but can't wipe out huge mobs of the enemy on their own.

Of course Death Company should be assumed to fail this test all the time Unless a Chaplain is present in which case they have to roll like normal.

I think this would be really characterful in that it forces BA players to keep the enemy at arms length to remain effective, plus you don't get any "Extra" movement, which always irked me :mad:. It's essentially an UNPREDICTABLE advantage.

It also opens up tactical possibilities of running cheap expendable (and preferably fast) units in to draw off Blood Angel units. You know, an ACTUAL disadvantage.

Oh and get rid of over charged engines. :rolleyes:

cailus
22-06-2006, 03:28
I actually stopped playing Blood Angels in 3rd edition because they were too cheesy and all my marines were repainted into a codex chapter (the Impalers who are as useless as tits on a bull).

The BA should be a standard Codex chapter with a few special characters, units and rules.

I would get rid of the following:

No Black Rage other than in the Death Company.
No Furious Charge other than in the Death Company.
No free upgrades for Death Company.
No Blood Angel Scout Squad and no restriction on standard Scout squads.
No overcharged engines (one of the biggest fluff f@ck ups in GW history).
No Furioso dread other than Moriar special character. Normal Dread becomes elite as per Codex chapter.

I would retain:

Sanguinary Priest
Veteran Assault squad
Death Company (albeit heavily modified rules)
Baal class Predator
Special characters: Dante, Mephiston, Corbulo, Moriar.

The Dude
22-06-2006, 04:17
I actually stopped playing Blood Angels in 3rd edition because they were too cheesy

Me too :cries:


I would get rid of the following:

No Black Rage other than in the Death Company.
No Furious Charge other than in the Death Company.
No free upgrades for Death Company.
No Blood Angel Scout Squad and no restriction on standard Scout squads.

Agree with all of that.


No overcharged engines (one of the biggest fluff f@ck ups in GW history).

TOTALLY agree with THAT!!!


No Furioso dread other than Moriar special character. Normal Dread becomes elite as per Codex chapter.

Not with you on this one though. I like the Furioso, but it should be an upgrade to the BAs regular Dread to stop the opportunity for 6 Dreads. That's okay for Traited SMs with Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, but it don't fit the Blood Angels.

cailus
22-06-2006, 05:55
I probably will start a new BA army when the next BA Codex comes out.

Some of the ideas I had for a new BA army:

1. Death Company with bolters. Fluff states DC are given weapons they feel mostly comfortable with. Given that most DC Marines are from the Tactical Squads, then bolters make sense. From a game perspective it's totally retarded. And I like retarded!

2. Codex organisation - this means 10 man Tactical Squads, 10 man Assault Squads and 10 man Devastator units, all splitable into 5 man combat squads.

3. Baal Class Predator is a must. I like chain guns and flame throwers.

4. The most retarded Devastator unit ever:
10 Devastator Marines
4 multi-meltas
Veteran Sergeant with power fist
Rhino

It makes sense from a Space Marine tactical deployment perspective, that is fast attacks and short range gun fights. A multi-melta should IMO be a more common weapon in SM armies.

5. Terminators - More old school codex worship - 5 Termies with a heavy flamer.

6. Captain - bolter, power fist and Iron Halo. He has a Command Squad that features a 2 wound Chaplain. Lotsa WS5 hurt!

Mikari
22-06-2006, 08:28
Haven;t overcharged engines been with the BA since Second ed? I always see BA using bolters and hit and run tactics. Dropping in/using a rhino to get to where they need and desimating all that stand in their way and then buggering off again quickly.

cailus
22-06-2006, 09:18
Haven;t overcharged engines been with the BA since Second ed?

No mention of overcharged engines in my 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex. It could have been in a White Dwarf though.

But overcharging engines is dumb and unfluffy.

Mikari
22-06-2006, 09:23
I'm 99.9% positive it was the Death company who used over charged rhinos. Don't recall anyone else but I remember an old WD with a chapter master article, the list was 500 points and the death company had an overcharged rhino.

Escaflowne_Z
22-06-2006, 12:56
The BA do need to be reworked to be more codex-like. I think a lot of this would be fixed by only getting furious charge 2/3 the time (roll after you decide to assault or not). Additionally, I'd change the randomness of the DC. 5+ to induct a battle-brother, 6+ to have the option to induct the veteran sergeant. No additional roll for the 6. I play BA and would be content with this.

inq.covenant
22-06-2006, 14:07
Hi, I only registered here today but I've been following these forums for some time now!

I have to agree with all those who say that the BA are in need of a lot of work for their upcoming codex. I've been involved in the GW hobby for nearly 9 years and during that time I've been a Blood Angel supporter and player. It was the 2nd edition codex 'Angels of Death' and the original Death Company boxed set that got me hooked on 40K, Space Marines and the Blood Angels in particular. I loved the background (the fluff as many people seem to refer to it as!) and the artwork. I mean, how could you look at that drawing of Mephiston, Lord of Death and not think Blood Angels were cool?! But even with the Index Astartes: First Founding series in White Dwarf and the Horus Heresy artwork books, the BA have gone down the toilet.

I realise I'm rambling a bit here (bad for my first post!) so I'll (try to) get straight to the point. One of the things that really bugs me about the current Blood Angels is the colour scheme GW dreamed up, or maybe that should be lack of colour scheme. Red and black? The 'fluff' always described the BA as great artisans, with some of the most beautiful armour and banners amongst the astartes... so why are 'eavy metal team painting them the way they are nowadays?! Why do the Ultramarines suddenly get all this gold detailing and the Space Wolves get wolf pelts and Salamanders get all those flame details? I know some people will say: "it's your hobby, paint them as you see fit.", but shouldn't the eavy metal army reflect the fluff? Thoughts please!

Ps. I agree with those who think the BA should be more codex but have the death company as a sort of uber assault unit!

Mikari
22-06-2006, 14:35
Lol, Red AND black? Last time I checked BA were just painted red quite often.. icons were black but most was just plain red.

BA should have different colours for each unit based around red acording to the fluff.

IMO BA shouldn't get any advantages, no traits or nothing. What they should get is access to special units (Elite choice jump packers with an extra attack and an extra power weapon compared to normal ones, higher leadership etc) and the special HQs they already have. Make Death company an elite choice and give them furious charge and berserker rage like Khorne berserkers get.

That way BA don't gain anything overly special but stay very fluffy. I'd also say make it so you can give all characters jump packs (unless carrying a chalice full of the primaches blood I don't recall the name for). Instead of the current rules of "black rage just makes you run a bit LOL!" where as the fluff says "give in and you're screwed OKITHXBI!"

But then this is GW, GW want to make everything as simple as possible but still unique, so blood angels will need something special about them or they might just **** off the guys who bought 12 million rhinos and death company.

Didn't BA also have something special about the scouts? I don't recall but something in me says they did.

Oh and they should encourage terminators too. Since BA terminators are the best known out of all of them. They fronted Space Hulk after all.

Wow it seems weird now I think about it. BA were my first 40k army about 10 years ago and the only Imperial army I could ever get behind. Now I'm too much of a Nightlords guy to go back to anything except BA.

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2006, 16:13
That's the problem really. It was, I believe, meant to be a disadvantage to Blood Angels forces set up as per Codex (ie stop Devs from firing etc) to offset the inclusion of the Death Company and what is now called Furious Charge. However, it was poorly thought out, as nasty people realised that if they ignore the units that are adversely affected by the disadvantage (ie Devs) they can maximise the advantage (ie kick **** assault power). This has over time led to the assumption that BAs are Combat Wombats and should, therefore *shudder* get BP/CCW options for Tactical Squads.


Maybe they should have had the Black Rage without the Furious Charge advantage. Of course, it would still benefit non-vehicle based assault units such as Assault Squads, so it could still be construed as an advantage. As far as BP/CCW Tac Squads, my attitude has always been "Why bother?" One word: Scouts.


The only way the "surge forward" rule should stay is if it has a range on it. Eg if within 12" of an enemy you MUST move towards them (the nearest) and assault (therefore not firing rapid fire weapons) with Furious Charge on a D6 roll of 4+. Furious Charge should ONLY come into effect when this test is failed.

Combine this with may NEVER Sweeping Advance for the Red Thirst (yum-o) and you get close combat units that hit hard but can't wipe out huge mobs of the enemy on their own.

Well, that would be an interesting mechanic. What if you have to go through Difficult Terrain, but blow the roll so that your unit can't assault that turn?


Of course Death Company should be assumed to fail this test all the time Unless a Chaplain is present in which case they have to roll like normal.

I think this would be really characterful in that it forces BA players to keep the enemy at arms length to remain effective, plus you don't get any "Extra" movement, which always irked me :mad:. It's essentially an UNPREDICTABLE advantage.

I think one unintended consequence that this idea could have is that it would encourage BA players to use a lot of 6-man lasplas squads, since getting close enough to fight with bolters would be a problematic tactic for them. Also, I suspect that BA players might grouse about having to roll to get Furious Charge, although I suppose appropriate units could simply have Furious Charge as an upgrade option, the way SM Vet Squads do.


It also opens up tactical possibilities of running cheap expendable (and preferably fast) units in to draw off Blood Angel units. You know, an ACTUAL disadvantage.

Oh and get rid of over charged engines. :rolleyes:

With Rhino Rush having been nerfed, I think most BA players would support this as well, unless Rhino Rush stood to get un-nerfed.

Marshal Lazarus
22-06-2006, 21:08
The Blood Angel codex of my dreams:

1) No bp/ccw option for tactical squads - Veterans, retinues, and scouts only.

2) Any army led by Dante may take jump pack assault squads as Troop choices.

3) Death Company would still remain random and bundled with the cost of the chaplain.

4) Any army led by a Sanguinary High Priest would have a squad option to upgrade a veteran sargeant to a regular Sanguinary Priest for and additional 15 points. By doing this, these squads may re-roll black rage tests should they rage forward as the Priest tries to qwell his bretheren to focus on the task at hand. Priests also have the Apothocary ability of ignoring one failed armor save per turn within normal instant death or power weapon limitations. Veteran Sargeants and Sanguinary Priests may also purchase Terminator Armor and jump packs, but normal transport restrictions would apply.

5) Keep the current method for determining who falls to the Death Company. Squads led by Sanguinary Priests may re-roll the result if desired. A Sanguinary Priest may not be chosen to go to the DC. If led by a Veteran Sargeant, then he goes to the DC with the wargear that was purchased for him. This includes any upgrades bought such as Master-Crafted Weapons, Melta-Bombs, etc. This upgrade may be taken for terminator squads as well.

6) If the army is not led by a chaplain, then a Death Company of 1d6 models MUST be purchased at (undetermined) points as an Elites choice. Unless led by a Sanguinary High Priest, the normal Death Company rules will apply.

7) Moriar The Chosen would remain in the codex and automatically fail all rage tests. He may also reroll the d6 result if desired but MUST accept the second result. He would count as being Venerable. No other venerable dreads may be taken if Moriar is included in the list.

8) Overcharged engines would be a purchased option for Rhinos and Razorbacks. If overcharged engines are used, the vehicle may not shoot unless it has taken the Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade. Then the vehicle may fire 1 weapon at BS 2.

9) Honor Guard wouldn't change much aside from a Sanguinary Priest option. I'm almost leaning towards giving a Combat Shield option for all models with Terminator Honors.

10) The Furious Charge issue - Only units that failed their black rage test that turn would gain this ability when they charge. The only exception to this would be purchased veteran skill upgrades for Honor Guard, Terminator Squads, and Veteran Squads.

11) Keep Baal Predators. They Rock.

12) Models in Jump Packs and on bikes do NOT benefit from the extra 1d6 movement of failing their black rage test but will gain Furious Charge for that turn.

13) Mephiston needs help and an invulnerable save. Any ideas on him?

Anyway, that's all I've thought of so far. I'm sure I'm leaving a few things out. If so, I'll post them later.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
22-06-2006, 23:24
I think the reason BA are so powerful (in this edition) is because there are no "wasted" points on a Blood Angels tactical marine, unlike most chapters. He shoots, he gets shot, he fights in combat, every game if you play it right. His decent ballistic skill, weapon skill, bolter, armour save and enhanced strength and initiative all get used at some point in the game making a BA tac extremely cost effective, en-masse they are practically unstoppable point-for-point. It's the experience of many BA players that the most effective way to play BA is the tactical squad horde, with full compliment of special and heavy weapons plus the power fist sarge. Few can stand against it! If anything the BA need a little tweaking to make them worth their own codex, rather than simple a traited marine army without the 3pts per model for furious charge.

The Dude
23-06-2006, 02:55
I think one unintended consequence that this idea could have is that it would encourage BA players to use a lot of 6-man lasplas squads, since getting close enough to fight with bolters would be a problematic tactic for them.

Ahh yes, hadn't thought of that... Probably best to just bugger it off entirely except for the Death Company.


Also, I suspect that BA players might grouse about having to roll to get Furious Charge, although I suppose appropriate units could simply have Furious Charge as an upgrade option, the way SM Vet Squads do.

Well I'm a Blood Angel Player, and I don't have a problem with it ;). As for the Cheesemongers who would, well they can just deal with it :D. Really the only "appropriate" units to receive furious charge ARE veterans so no probs there. Maybe to keep the masses happy they could get it cheaper or something.

So to wrap up, extra Jump Packs, Special Units and Red Thirst would do me.

Arryn
23-06-2006, 04:20
I see quite a few suggestions here that may be leaning towards OVER-nerfing... im sure we all dont want that!

Red ultramarines is something we definitely dont want...

The Dude
23-06-2006, 04:46
Red ultramarines is something we definitely dont want...

Red Ultramarines would suck, yes.

Blood Angels with extra Jump Packs, Death Company, Sanguinary Priests, Baal Preadators, Furioso Dreadnoughts, unique Psychic Powers and Red Thirst Rules would, however, ROCK HARD without being close combat monsters.

Zingbaby
24-06-2006, 04:11
Ahh here we go again with the 'old non-CC Blood Angels' fantasies.

Have any of you actually read the old BA stuff? The very first mention of BA gene-seed talks about a Blood thirst flaw for starters.

Then in the 2nd edition 'Angels of Death' Codex it is all laid out, even though most people choose to see what they want to see:

Yes the "organization" resembles a codex army, as does the 3rd edition codex, but the majority of the units are the same as we have now, and actually the assault and honour guards were even more CC-pimped out in 2nd edition. The major change in 3rd edition was the Furious charge. That coupled with 2 solid years of Rhino Rush hell and a game system geared on CC is what pushed everyone over the edge and started this imaginary glory days 'non-CC' Blood Angels theme spreading.

The only real pieces of "fluff" in the Angels of Death are stories about Blood Angel squads ripping their foes to pieces with such brutal ferocity that guardsmen nearby are almost sick at the site of it.

What I find particularly strange is that the same people who complain about BA being a CC based army, complain that people don't utilize enough jump packs, otherwise known as ASSAULT squads.

I'm all for the new BA codex getting a work over or getting 'nerfed' or whatever, but make no mistake,

THE BLOOD ANGELS ARE AN ASSAULT ARMY.

Mortare
24-06-2006, 09:38
The above is true, to a degree. The blood angels fight hard to keep their rage under wraps and to suppress their urges. During war, this is harder to achieve, and they have less reason to do so. They can focus their rage at their opponents, and so such stories as assaulting bunkers and slaughtering all inside whilst the watching guardsmen look on helpless and in shock are true, but that doesnt apply for the whole army. That is why these guys form the assault squads. There arent many stories of blood angels rending foes apart that dont involve them being the death company or assault marines

LoerdofallJoy
24-06-2006, 10:54
I played BA all the way through through 3rd ed as they were supposed to be played -
10 man tacticals, no rhinos, devestator squads, assault marines & speeders

The Blood Angels, be they codex, or near codex - still should have bolt-gun tactical squads, but an emphasis on assault squads rather than Devestators.

The Baal pred is a perfect example of the the BA way of doing things - get up close & dakka the snot out of anything that moves. But don't annoy'em - or they'll get mad and rip your arms off.

The way I'd fix it?
Keep the rage - but a veteran Seargant will keep his brother's mind's clear enough to withstand the rage - i.e. if you have a Vet Sarg - you are immune to rage - stops your dev squads moving, means that your tacticals stay in cover when you need to.

Jump-pack retinues - very BA thing from way back & keep the different weapon options like meltaguns & plasma guns.

Much as I thought WTF when i first read it - the option of FA slot marines with Bolt-guns & jump-packs seems quite interesting - but definately not as troop options.

Get rid of overcharged engines - they are stupid

Get rid of the scout snipers - BA's need to be tested in the heat of battle to ensure that the gene-seed hasn't corrupted. THe earlier you find out the better - chuck'em in combat to see if they turn into frothing loons.

Make the DC a 0-1 paid for (I think that pretty much the consensus)

Give our librarians something nice & different - Sanguinius was prescient - our librarians must have kept some of that - maybe it'll stop all BA players using the Chaplain

Just some thoughts
LoaJ

Arryn
24-06-2006, 11:15
What I find particularly strange is that the same people who complain about BA being a CC based army, complain that people don't utilize enough jump packs, otherwise known as ASSAULT squads.

Man i think you've missed the point! We're saying that if you want a full-on CC based BA army, take assault squads as a majority. However the problem with 3rd ed BA is that to be uber combat, you hardly have to try! At the moment if you give a BA a bolter he'll just chuck it over his shoulder and charge forward to bump heads. This isn't how it should be. Theres no doubting the Angels have a certain... perpensity... for close combat, but that doesn't mean that a tactical squad ISN'T a TACTICAL squad!

Arryn
24-06-2006, 11:17
Loaj has a good post right there... however marines with jump packs and boltguns isn't right. It was never like that, not even during the heresy.

ionfish
24-06-2006, 11:39
As always, I pretty much agree with everything the Dude says. Yes, they tend towards assault more than the average Marine army does, but that's far from their only trait. I hate the way the 3rd Ed. codex made them so one-dimensional. They should have close-combat monsters, but the whole army shouldn't be close-combat monsters. Might post a concept list later.

Arryn
24-06-2006, 12:36
Totally agree, looking forward to your concept list mate

Ares
24-06-2006, 16:27
Really the only "appropriate" units to receive furious charge ARE veterans so no probs there. Maybe to keep the masses happy they could get it cheaper or something.


But when is comes down to it.... the extremely long lived BA's are all veterans! A Long Fang of the space wolves (60+yr old equivalent) would be an oldish man but a Blood Angel would only be/ appear to be a 20yr old though both have been inducted at the same time.


Loaj has a good post right there... however marines with jump packs and boltguns isn't right. It was never like that, not even during the heresy.

Mmmm, i seem to remember some HH cards with troops equipt that way!?!


As always, I pretty much agree with everything the Dude says. Yes, they tend towards assault more than the average Marine army does, but that's far from their only trait. I hate the way the 3rd Ed. codex made them so one-dimensional. They should have close-combat monsters, but the whole army shouldn't be close-combat monsters.

Yes, thats why i said that the BT's are the new BA's. The BT's are a balance between range & assualt, the Devs stressed that this IS the difference between the BT's & the BA's.
But like most of you readers (i hope), i thought... "wait a sec, dont you you mean the BT's at CC orrented nutbars & the BA's a balance between range & assualt" :wtf: :confused:

CrashMann
24-06-2006, 19:20
When I had a BA army, I had 2000pts with 1600pts of that could at least move 12"
To me that is what a BA army is for. Move fast, hit hard and move on to the next.
To play them any other way is a waste of a BA army.

Zingbaby
24-06-2006, 19:25
The shift from non-CC to Assault-based was more a result of the game design rather than a codex based change.

The 'Angels of Death' BA list was still packed full of ASSAULT units... though most people chose to play a more 'shooty' force as that is what won games in 2nd edition.

But ALL Blood Angel "fluff" has always maintained that they are near berserk madmen on the field of battle despite however people chose to play them gamewise.

When 3rd edition came around, close combat was the supreme ruler and all the BA rules and concepts took on a new meaning, much to the chagrin of all non-BA players. The super rhino-rush further enflamed this hated of lists built with a new CC-focus and spurred this desire for a return to the 'old' non-CC BA's that has somehow now taken on this imaginary battle-cry of "BA's are not an Assault army"... when in fact they always were. Most people just didn't play a 'fluffy' BA list in 2nd edition because it didn't win games.

The current BA codex is actually not a problem under the current game system. For once the BA 'flaws' are actual dissadvantages most of the time... I personally hope that GW 'nerfs' them in a new codex just to shutup the old stereotypes but I doubt they will change much considering what they did with the BT list.

Further, why are people so outraged by the concept of CC focused tac squads? ...we see them in other lists. Its not a big deal at all. The only real reason is because everyone was tired of getting whupped by BA in the 3rd edition 40k with the goddamn super reach furious-rush.

Like it or not all BA's from there humble beginnings in the 10th company to tactical and/or assault marines are 'flawed' and very often controlled by a berserker fury unlike other Imperial marines. Again this has NOT changed since 2nd edition... the games focus has however shifted many different ways since then.

Zingbaby
24-06-2006, 19:35
But when is comes down to it.... the extremely long lived BA's are all veterans!

According to the fluff this is true. That is the justification for the furious charge in any and all BA marines.

Personally I don't think it is a rule problem anymore. Furious charge is useless without a reliable transport.

On assault squads its a really great skill however; the reason we are seeing more BA assault squads in 4th edition 40k, which will hopefully someday silence the 'glory days' BA whiners and the people that want to see assault squad based BA lists.

Pandion40
24-06-2006, 20:47
I agree with Zingbaby the story from 2nd edition Angels of Death could fit into 3rd or 4th edition easily. Some people seem to think they are red ultramarines one second then the rage comes and suddenly they experience Sanguineous death and join the death company. The way I see it to join the Blood Angels is to never experience a momentís peace for the rest of your life. Sanguineous rage and pain is always with you, his memories haunt you waking and dreaming. This is a curse and a blessing as the blood angels now their Primach better than any other loyalist chapter, but this means their grief is as fresh as when it happened.

The 3rd edition codex covered the black rage well in my opinion. I think the problem was the BA have such a rich background and the codex was so small they focused on the most visible aspect and the rest got pushed to the background.

As for the new codex we should keep furious charge and the black rage though not as an extra movement. Jump packs should be pushed even more than they are now some options for this are:-
1. Make them cheaper. Probably not a good idea given our history of getting things for free.:D
2. Give them skilled flyers
3. Allow 1 tac squad to take them with restricted weapons
4. All special characters must have the option for taking one.

We should be able to pay extra points to negate the forced movement of certain squads like devs. Probably through the use of veteran sergeants. This would encourage BA players to take them. Veteran sergeants should be more common in BA armies anyway

I like the current death company rules but they tend to mean people don't take things like termies or honour guard, so itís better if we pay for them like any other unit.

EmperorsChamp01
24-06-2006, 22:20
After readimg the entire thread. I have come to this conclusion...... If they want to play a CC orentated Red army they should play World Eaters.

Im in total Agreance with The Dude on everything he says. I dont know how many times my BT have been beatin in CC aginst bolter Weilding BA. It maybe bad rolls on my part or it could be thatthey are just so freaking cheasy that its almost not even worth playing.

I think the next codex BA should have some Signifacant Changes.

I think that they should Give the Libraian a Spell that is cast in your shooting phase that gives them the Furious charge bonus But they have to make a Compulsory Red Thirst move at the beginning of thier next turn.

They should be pushed more to have the 10 man tac squads. Give them the ability to cary plasma cannons or something.

But the DC should be made to only be used when the pts are over 1500 pts. and then in 500 pt increments they get one extra man. SO like if they are playing a 1500 pt match they get 2 DC to start, 2000 pts they get 3 off the start, and so on.....and then they roll as usual to get the rest. But if they roll a 6 they dont get to keep rolling.

I also think that they should make the Terminators and all things that Deep strike like the Space wolves. They dont trust it so they dont do it. Make the Deep striking units ride in a Drop pod.

But that is my two cents.

Oh just to let you guys know Fluff is constantly rewritten so you cant really base the creation of a new codex off the fluff from 10 to 15 years ago. And to all who say that BT are just Black BA. Shut up. The BT's are just so much cooler than the BA im tired of hearing that crock of bull.

Zingbaby
24-06-2006, 22:44
Im in total Agreance with The Dude on everything he says. I dont know how many times my BT have been beatin in CC aginst bolter Weilding BA. It maybe bad rolls on my part or it could be thatthey are just so freaking cheasy that its almost not even worth playing.

Whoa... strange argument especially considering that both the previous and current Black Templars rules are FAR more "freaking cheasy" than the Blood Angels rules; at least once the rhino-rush was killed that is. Are there seriously people who think otherwise?

Plain and simple: the Blood Angels are the absolute best marine chapter at moving 'straight ahead towards the nearest enemy'. While that was the tactic of choice in rhino-rushing, sweaping-advance, terrain-less games of the 3rd edition, it rather sucks in the 4th edition. You can no longer win games that way except against the most beginner and lackwit players.

The Dude
26-06-2006, 02:27
Ahh here we go again with the 'old non-CC Blood Angels' fantasies.

Have any of you actually read the old BA stuff?

As a matter of fact Mate, I have :mad:. I have been playing Blood Angels since I got into the hobby in 94, so that's like 12 years of following the Blood Angel background.


The very first mention of BA gene-seed talks about a Blood thirst flaw for starters.

Then in the 2nd edition 'Angels of Death' Codex it is all laid out, even though most people choose to see what they want to see:

What I saw laid out in MY Codex: Angels of Death was a codex chapter with a horrible secret and a slight penchant for Jump Packs. The only stories I remember reading about close combat atrocities involved the Death Company. Could it possibly be that YOU are seeing what YOU want to see?


Yes the "organization" resembles a codex army, as does the 3rd edition codex, but the majority of the units are the same as we have now, and actually the assault and honour guards were even more CC-pimped out in 2nd edition.

The organisation more than resembles codex, it IS codex. 6/2/2 you can't get any more codex than that :eyebrows:. Plus te codex extends beyond mere chapter organisation. It covers stuff like tactics as well, and whilst I'm sure the Blood Angels would look a little closer at the sections of the Codex about fighting with Jump Packs, they would in NO WAY ignore the use of the Bolter.


The major change in 3rd edition was the Furious charge. That coupled with 2 solid years of Rhino Rush hell and a game system geared on CC is what pushed everyone over the edge and started this imaginary glory days 'non-CC' Blood Angels theme spreading.

This I agree with, and it's the main reason my BAs have sat in the cupbord these past 4 years, however, saying that the "glory days" of non-cc oriented Blood Angels is imagined is rediculous. The Angels of Death Codex gave the Blood Angels nothing that beefed them in Close Combat other than the Death Company and the core of the Bood Angels Troops has ALWAYS been Bolter Armed Tactical Squads.


Plain and simple: the Blood Angels are the absolute best marine chapter at moving 'straight ahead towards the nearest enemy'.

But why should they be? The point I'm making is that the Blood Angels try their utmost to repress their flaw. The Chaplains are always vigilant for signs of it and I've no doubt that a chapter so paranoid about this sort of thing would have developed all manner of methods for "keepin' down the urges" (cornstarch anyone?:D)

All up, I don't mind if the Blood Angels have a slight Close Combat bent, IF you're paying for it in points or FOC slots, but the core should remain Bolter Armed Marines who can control themselves enough to think tactically enough to warrant the name "Tactical Squad"

zeekphreak
26-06-2006, 02:58
I guess I am going to throw my hat into the ring. And I guess I want to simply say that the "fluff" for the Blood Angels has changed faces a few times. 2nd Edition was the Assault Squad army, Third (and still somewhat current) edition paints them as hungry for close combat. However I guess my real point is, regardless of what "fluff" claims, says or used to say Games Workshop has deemed the BA to be CC oriented.
Just my two cents, for free.

EDIT: Speaking of fluff does this include only the Angels of Death Codex, and the Blood Angels codex, or are we including Bloodquest Graphic novel, and the Deus Encarmine/Deus Sanguinus novels? Seems to me in those tomes, that they were shown to have a penchant for close combat there as well.

The Dude
26-06-2006, 03:34
A penchant for Close Combat does not equate to an entire army of Close Combat Monsters. I have a penchant for rare steak, but that doesn't make me a Carnivore.

Strange that you bring up Bloodquest, because I thought that showed really well just how sane the Blood Angels are. Of course they would be fighting in Close Combat more, because that's what makes comics cool ;).

I agree with you that the background changes over time, and that's why I'm requesting the changes I am :).

shutupSHUTUP!!!
26-06-2006, 05:05
Blood Angels have to be more different from codex marines or even a traited marine army to be worth their own codex. I mean different in terms of rules. I'm accustomed to the my bolter and jump pack weilding Blood Angels who shoot stuff up and use furious charge to finish them off, I think they are a satisfying army to play at the moment personally.

I think Blood Angels should be focused on their tactical squads and assault squads, they work well together, you have to be careful of nerfing one so that BA players only use the other, and of over-nerfing the army as a whole.

The Dude
26-06-2006, 05:32
Blood Angels have to be more different from codex marines or even a traited marine army to be worth their own codex. I mean different in terms of rules.

I don't see how they wouldn't still be significantly different from a "codex" or traited army if you took the dumb-**** extra movement and furious charge Black Rage rules away. They would still have the Death Company, Furioso Dreads, Baal Predators, Jump Pack Honour Guards and Sanguinary High Priests. That's not even mentioning the possibility of BA only Librarian Powers, Wargear etc.

The point I'm extraneously trying to make here is that the Blood Angels can indeed be made unique enough to require their own codex (i.e not able to be represented through traits) without being pushed further down the road of the Close Combat nutter.

I always liked the original background that alluded to Vampirism, so the Red thirst can stay, for sure, and I'm happy to see a codex slightly weighted towards close combat, but the Blood Angels abhorrence of their flaw MUST be represented. As it stands, you would think the Blood Angels think it's an honour to succumb to the Rage. The truth should be quite the opposite. They FEAR the day they succumb, and Blood Angels players should feel that same fear.

cailus
26-06-2006, 05:41
Personally I don't think it is a rule problem anymore. Furious charge is useless without a reliable transport.

It's a good thing my brother doesn't listen to you then. He equipped his 6 man footslogging power weapon Chaos Termies with furious charge. And it worked brilliantly when he managed to charge an 8 strong Black Templar Terminator unit and wipe them out in a single turn. And it was because he was wounding on 3's and not 4's.

cailus
26-06-2006, 05:43
I don't see how they wouldn't still be significantly different from a "codex" or traited army if you took the dumb-**** extra movement and furious charge Black Rage rules away. They would still have the Death Company, Furioso Dreads, Baal Predators, Jump Pack Honour Guards and Sanguinary High Priests. That's not even mentioning the possibility of BA only Librarian Powers, Wargear etc.

The point I'm extraneously trying to make here is that the Blood Angels can indeed be made unique enough to require their own codex (i.e not able to be represented through traits) without being pushed further down the road of the Close Combat nutter.

I always liked the original background that alluded to Vampirism, so the Red thirst can stay, for sure, and I'm happy to see a codex slightly weighted towards close combat, but the Blood Angels abhorrence of their flaw MUST be represented. As it stands, you would think the Blood Angels think it's an honour to succumb to the Rage. The truth should be quite the opposite. They FEAR the day they succumb, and Blood Angels players should feel that same fear.

Dude once again I agree with you!

The Dude
26-06-2006, 05:48
I'm glad someone does cailus ;)

EmperorsChamp01
26-06-2006, 05:59
I always liked the original background that alluded to Vampirism, so the Red thirst can stay, for sure, and I'm happy to see a codex slightly weighted towards close combat, but the Blood Angels abhorrence of their flaw MUST be represented. As it stands, you would think the Blood Angels think it's an honour to succumb to the Rage. The truth should be quite the opposite. They FEAR the day they succumb, and Blood Angels players should feel that same fear.

I totally agree with the dude. you hit the naill on the head with this statement. BA should not be chearing when they succumb TO the Rage but they should be hesitant.

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 06:03
As a matter of fact Mate, I have :mad:. I have been playing Blood Angels since I got into the hobby in 94, so that's like 12 years of following the Blood Angel background.

That is also when I started playing Blood Angels. As a fellow, long-time BA player I would expect you to have at least done a little reading before you so hastily posted.

Ok lets get started; my copy of "Angels of Death" is on my lap as I type:


What I saw laid out in MY Codex: Angels of Death was a codex chapter with a horrible secret and a slight penchant for Jump Packs. The only stories I remember reading about close combat atrocities involved the Death Company. Could it possibly be that YOU are seeing what YOU want to see?

The organisation more than resembles codex, it IS codex. 6/2/2 you can't get any more codex than that :eyebrows:. Plus te codex extends beyond mere chapter organisation. It covers stuff like tactics as well, and whilst I'm sure the Blood Angels would look a little closer at the sections of the Codex about fighting with Jump Packs, they would in NO WAY ignore the use of the Bolter.

For starters the "Angels of Death" (AoD) Blood Angels resemble a 'codex' list in as much as the current Blood Angels do when talking about organization, without a doubt. The organization and even early armour markings are strict codex, EXCEPT, and this also goes for the 2nd edition AoD-BA, they have veteran jumppack squads, a death company and even a jumppack honour guard. As I said, 'resembles'. I don't believe I ever said anything about BA marines ignoring Bolters either.

Obviously you don't remember but "the flaw", "the Black Rage", and "the Red Thirst" were all inventions of the 2nd edition AoD codex. The Death Company even had a "Frenzy" special rule back then.

Here are some quotes from the only real pieces of "fluff" in the AoD codex (these are not Death Company mind you):

"Although there were only five Space Marines compared to at least six times as many rebels, the barely-contained animalistic fury of the Blood Angels made up for their comparative lack of numbers."

"...Broken bodies lay scattered among the ruins, not just cut down by gunfire but butchered in ways that the Guardsmen would only have expected from an alien horror such as the Tyranids. Here a rebel killed by a gunshot to the stomach had had his heart torn clean out of his chest; there the corprse of another man testified to the fact that, while still alive, his head had been ripped from his body, taking half his spinal column with it."

"...Frozen with horror, the Mordians looked on as they Emperor's elite went on with their slaughter. The bloodlust was on the Space Marines now and nothing would stop them purging Korsk or the rebels."

Theres more in even just that one story if you require it; This one is from the back cover:

"The Blood Angels are amongst the most ferocious and blood-thirsty of all the Space Marine Chapters. Even thought they have proved themselves in countless battles to be the most loyal servants of the Emperor, they remain the most feared and least trusted of all Space Marine Chapters. Few dare speak about what sullies the honour of the Blood Angel, but those who do whisper of a fatal flaw that curses the gene-seed of the Chapter."

All above quotes were from the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. ...there is still more... All of the same special characters existed in the AoD codex; Dante, Corbulo, Tycho and of course the vampiric, psychopathic, berserker Mephiston with "the Blood Greed" special rule.


...however, saying that the "glory days" of non-cc oriented Blood Angels is imagined is rediculous. The Angels of Death Codex gave the Blood Angels nothing that beefed them in Close Combat other than the Death Company and the core of the Bood Angels Troops has ALWAYS been Bolter Armed Tactical Squads.

Don't forget their "slight penchant for Jump Packs".

The fact is that the 2nd edition 40k game system was NOT a close-combat focused game. It didn't make sense to have "beefed" close combat because that is not how you won games. This only changed, and changed drastically in the 3rd edition.

Those of us that have been around 40k as long as you have, should know that very well.


The point I'm making is that the Blood Angels try their utmost to repress their flaw. The Chaplains are always vigilant for signs of it and I've no doubt that a chapter so paranoid about this sort of thing would have developed all manner of methods for "keepin' down the urges" (cornstarch anyone?:D)

Well I am mostly in agreement with you here. Though I must admit I have always found that element of unpredictability (due to Black Rage) very exciting in my games and very characterful. Of course it wasn't until the 4th edition with the additional push towards more terrain that this has actually become a drawback more often than a benefit.


All up, I don't mind if the Blood Angels have a slight Close Combat bent, IF you're paying for it in points or FOC slots, but the core should remain Bolter Armed Marines who can control themselves enough to think tactically enough to warrant the name "Tactical Squad"

You don't mind it eh? Thats who they are and who they have been. Just cuz you don't like, and most people don't after the rhino-rush hell days, doesn't make it not true.

I don't get your whole bolter gripe either, you can field a core of Bolter Armed Marines now if you like... just hope some lucky lasgun shot doesn't **** them off and make them lose control. ...you could always just play Ultras?

By the way Dude, if you eat steak, by definition - you ARE a carnivor. :)

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 06:13
Let me also state that I too hated the rhino-rushing uber CC era of the early 3rd edition game system, and even how the Blood Angels fit into that system.

But even though you all want to forget it, the actually Blood Angels have not really changed much, only the game system focus has brought about enormous changes, and of course provided an outlet for power-gamers and super cheese armies. ...That even those of you who refuse to see the truth of the Blood Angels cannot argue, has been neutered to a large degree, by yet another "game system change" not a Blood Angel change.

EmperorsChamp01
26-06-2006, 06:18
OK Listern here Guys

Two Full grown men Are arguing about a Makebelieve history about a Science fiction BOARDGAME! Come on guys... Lets put the petty difference aside.

Zingbaby: I agree with you on some points. Yea the 2nd addition AoD codex did make it sound like the BA where these crazy animalistic Warriors hell bent on ripping every thing that was evil in to shreds.
But 1) that was second edition
2)There is other books written about SM. But when you read these they make the SM practially Invinceable. They are called Black Library Books. Just because they sound reliestic doesnt mean that they are.

The Dude: I Also agree with you on most of your points. By the sounds of it you are a Fluffy player like myself. You like to have an army that (if this universe existed) You would actually see. But man times are a changing. I hate how GW sits there and puts out new rules that make either Shooting or Assault better than the other just so that all us hard working people have to actually go out and buy new models so we actually have a chance.

Well thats about all the i have to say.

Oh and one Fluff question? Does it say how Sanguinius gets his wings. Because a BA player i know says that back in 2nd ed It says that he got his wings from the Swooping hawk Exarct as a sign of a truce. Im pretty sure that is false but since i dont know the 2nd ed Fluff i might as well ask you guys.

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 06:49
First you should know that this argument has gone on for years, way beyond the esteemed Dude and I. I would have put a lot more smiley faces if we weren't limited to only four. :)

My main point is that a "fluffy" BA list is an 'Assaulty' one, and always has been - even though most people don't like that fact and don't even really want to hear it.

In the 2nd edition my Blood Angels were all shooty plus a Death Company... like most people. That is how games were won; that was NOT a fluffy list however.

This is partly what brought about the changes we do have in the current codex. Even though most of us hate it - all of minor additions in 3rd edition codex more acturately reflected the "fluff" and inventions of the 2nd edition Blood Angels (and original) source known as the Angels of Death.

It was the original fluff (actually White Dwarf then into Angels of Death) that invented the madmen BA, the Flaw, the Red Thirst, and the Black Rage.



Oh and one Fluff question? Does it say how Sanguinius gets his wings. Because a BA player i know says that back in 2nd ed It says that he got his wings from the Swooping hawk Exarct as a sign of a truce. Im pretty sure that is false but since i dont know the 2nd ed Fluff i might as well ask you guys.

He was born with them.

EmperorsChamp01
26-06-2006, 06:53
Ok thanks about the Answer i dont know where the hell my friend got that the elder gave them to him. But I cant relate a Fluffy BA army to a Assaulty one. To me an Fluffy army is Like your 2n edition BA list. Im not saying that BA shouldnt have any assault units but it should Be domanantly Bolters.

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 07:03
To me an Fluffy army is Like your 2n edition BA list. Im not saying that BA shouldnt have any assault units but it should Be domanantly Bolters.

No offense guy, but that only means you don't know the fluff. I can quote more of the Angels of Death for you if you like?

That is what you would like the Blood Angels to be... same with a lot of people - SAME AS ME. :) ...unfortunately we don't make the fluff or the rules for the Blood Angels.

The 'original' fluff says they are nutters in combat, not me; you are however free to play them however you see fit. Like the other poster said, it is afterall just a game.

The Dude
26-06-2006, 07:37
Zingbaby:

Not having my Angel of Death Codex any more (it having been stolen from me in 98 by a total C**T! :mad:) I have to defer to your knowledge on the background contained within :).

I think we've gotten a little off the main thrust of my beef here, which was really the suggestion that Tactical Squads should have the option for BP/CCW, which I would HATE.

Regardless of the Blood Angels focus on Close Combat with certain specialised units, I would be loathed to see them get what are essentially Assault Squads as a Troops choice. I also don't like the fact that every single Blood Angel (including Scouts) is better on the charge than your average Marine. If they absolutely MUST have Furious Charge, it needs to be restricted to those specialist units such as Veterans, Honour guard and maybe regular Assault Squads, and you should PAY for it.


By the way Dude, if you eat steak, by definition - you ARE a carnivor.

Actually Zing, as long as I eat me greens as well, I am, by definition, an Omnivore ;).

EmperorsChamp01
26-06-2006, 07:51
Well Zing i really dont care about the AoD. Sure you can base all your knowlege off of it but Find a more recent book like the BA codex and quote from there. Then tell me the Page so i can read it myself.

No offence man but update your info man.

The Dude
26-06-2006, 07:54
The fact is that the 2nd edition 40k game system was NOT a close-combat focused game. It didn't make sense to have "beefed" close combat because that is not how you won games. This only changed, and changed drastically in the 3rd edition.

I don't agree here. 2nd edition was just as CC focused as 3rd, with all the different weapons and such you could cause MASSIVE damage, it was just that in a game of any real size, one round of Close Combat between 2 Squads could take FOREVER :rolleyes:. Therefore people without a weekend to spare would rather gun the enemy down than get stuck into close combat in any significant way.

Therefore it's not the changing game mechanic that has now "allowed" close combat to "win you games", but the streamlining HAS made large scale assaults playable within the bounds of a reasonable timeframe.

Maybe the Blood Angels were meant to showcase this new fact around the start of 3rd edition, I dunno. If so, they've done it too well...

Edit:


Well Zing i really dont care about the AoD. Sure you can base all your knowlege off of it but Find a more recent book like the BA codex and quote from there. Then tell me the Page so i can read it myself.

No offence man but update your info man.

That's a bit harsh. The AoD Codex is the PREMIER source for Blood Angel background. The more recent codex was PITIFUL in comparison.

cailus
26-06-2006, 10:47
"...Frozen with horror, the Mordians looked on as they Emperor's elite went on with their slaughter. The bloodlust was on the Space Marines now and nothing would stop them purging Korsk or the rebels."

Mind you I suspect even a squad of Ultramarine Assault Marines assaulting the enemy would be a gruesome sight. Put it simply you are hacking people up with chainsaws and blowing bits off them with with 0.75 Calibre explosive rockets. Not exactly clean work.

The Blood Angels may be ferocious but then so is any other chapter. They are shock troops after all.

The BA may be more fercious but they actively supress the Black Rage. Furthermore they also maintain a mainly Codex organisation other than a few select units.

Therefore IMO they should maintain this but have Sanguinary Priests, Veteran Assault, Death Company and Baal Predators.

However

Perhaps GW wants to further the story of the BA. So the BA flaw is now even more prevalent. Hence all squads are more susceptible to Black Rage and adherence to the Codex Astartes is starting to wane with squads dropping their bolters for Close combat weapons and pistols.

(I doubt GW would do this though).

adreal
26-06-2006, 12:21
hmmm, arnt blood angels supposed to be somewhat akin to vampires? Although normal tactical marines really shouldn't get spiffy ccw weapions, they should get a bonus from charging,

inq.covenant
26-06-2006, 13:45
Perhaps GW wants to further the story of the BA. So the BA flaw is now even more prevalent. Hence all squads are more susceptible to Black Rage and adherence to the Codex Astartes is starting to wane with squads dropping their bolters for Close combat weapons and pistols.

(I doubt GW would do this though).

While it pains me to admit it, this is actually more likely than you might think. GW is indeed expanding on the 40k universe more and more these days. Codex: Tau Empire is the best example - the fluff explains the arrival of the Vespid Stingwings, new Stealth Suits and Commander Shadowsun taking over from Commander Farsight. I think it's quite likely that the new Blood Angels codex will bring us 'up-to-date' so it were, on the Blood Angels struggle against the Black Rage & The Red Thirst, and so there may be appropriate (or unappropriate!) changes to the army units and wargear options, e.g. tactical squads exchanging bolters for ccw

cailus
26-06-2006, 14:43
In fact the changes from 2nd ed codex to 3rd ed codex could be viewed as a story progression with the flaw becoming more deeper engrained in the chapter.

Son of the Lion
26-06-2006, 15:30
It's an interesting idea (story progression) and I think you might be right. It's a good way of avoiding the fluff background becoming too static, and would allow GW to alter codexes/model ranges as they see fit. Shame though, I rather preferred the BA as they were.:(

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 16:23
Well Zing i really dont care about the AoD. Sure you can base all your knowlege off of it but Find a more recent book like the BA codex and quote from there. Then tell me the Page so i can read it myself.

No offence man but update your info man.

LOL ...this is why I get involved in this debate. Its like Tzeentch or some other force of the Warp is whispering into ears and giving voice to those that obviously have the least clue. :rolleyes:

As for more 'recent book' ...check the Index Astartes books and the 3rd Edition Blood Angel... most people (not you obviously) are well too familiar with these texts so I didn't bother quoting them, but they only further confirm what I've been saying.


Mind you I suspect even a squad of Ultramarine Assault Marines assaulting the enemy would be a gruesome sight. Put it simply you are hacking people up with chainsaws and blowing bits off them with with 0.75 Calibre explosive rockets. Not exactly clean work.

True indeed Cailus, but you don't often hear about Ultras tearing the heart out of already dead foes or tearing heads (and spines) clean off. I certainly don't recall in which version of the Ultramarines history they become inflicted with "the Flaw", "the Black Rage", "the Red Thirst", "the Frenzy", or "the Blood Greed"... all these inventions are from the original 2nd edition BA (Angels of Death) codex. Hehe, but yeah all marines are pretty fierce. :)

As far as rules go I could care less what happens next to the Blood Angels honestly. I would prefer they get totally nerfed so people would finally let go of the old stereotypes.

I simply just want to clear up all the wrong (warp spawned) ideas people have about the Blood Angels: It was the early (original) BA sources that made them the madmen they are. Later versions of BA fluff further expanded on this and coupled with a game system shift that went way overboard to emphasize Close-combat - we got to the current BA that many people dissaprove of.

EmperorsChamp01
26-06-2006, 16:56
Oh and Zing i have read all the Index Astartes book cover to cover. So i know a thing or two.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
26-06-2006, 17:19
I agree with zing with one addition: the Blood Angels still have more tactical squads than anything else.

As I was saying before, tactical squads are the BA's premier unit this edition, go ahead and take 5 or 6 in 1500 points and spend the rest on whatever you like, you'll win tons of games. They are still a shooty army, but also an army of close combat madmen with power fists in every squad in addition to their plasma guns and missile launchers. On B&C several BA players were following this style (tactical hordes and assault squads plus death company) and it worked quite well for them. Sadly vehicles don't make the cut at the moment (need more marines to get across the table with). Blood Angels still follow the codex astartes enough, still have enough tactical sense to know when to stand their ground and shoot the tyrannids for instance.

I think all the BA need is the death company taken down a notch, and some ridiculously expensive units such as honour guard and veteran assault squads brought in line with the current sm codex, giving them a point reduction to make them worthwhile to take.

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 20:33
I agree with zing with one addition: the Blood Angels still have more tactical squads than anything else.

Not to keep playing devils advocate here; but troops should make up the majority of any and ALL armies in 40k. Blood Angels are no exception.

I think it makes sense (and remains fluffy) for BA tactical marines to carry bolters... but make no mistake ALL Blood Angels, tacticals, scouts, whatever, suffer from the effects of "the Flaw". And again, this was an invention of the original BA sources and has remained a common theme since.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with tacticals having a bp&ccw option, though I know many people dissaprove of the idea. It should be noted that in 2nd edition tactical marines COULD switch to bp&ccw if they wished. ...But you wouldn't do that then because shooting was so much more effective. Bolters rock anyway.

I'm turning into a broken record here; but see most old school BA players are like "The Dude" and I. Back in the day we had lots of shooty goodness, tarantulas and devastator squads, and then a Death Company. That is how most people remember the Blood Angels. But if you look back at the fluff written back then, these guys are ancient, artistic - and bloody berkserking animals in combat.

The 3rd edition codex was an attempt to more accurately capture the Blood Angels since nobody was playing them to reflect the fluff. And again, once the uber CC-focused 3rd edition game got steam Blood Angels became the bane of everyones existance.

BA are an assault army and people are threatened by that; those that want their old shooty 2nd edition BA's (however unfluffy they were) back, and those that fear another period like the Rhino-rush hell of 3rd edition. Perfectly understandable and I suppose ignorance is bliss?


I think all the BA need is the death company taken down a notch, and some ridiculously expensive units such as honour guard and veteran assault squads brought in line with the current sm codex, giving them a point reduction to make them worthwhile to take.

Yep I agree with you here...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
26-06-2006, 21:31
I made no arguement for BP&CC weapons on tac squads, I was saying the BA have 6 tactical squads per company etc.

ionfish
26-06-2006, 21:32
Zing, I don't know that you're accurately portraying what the "old-school" players want, although of course my reading may well be incorrect too--I can only really speak for myself.

I would like to see a Blood Angels army with a certain balance between shooting and close combat, despite having a discernable tendency towards mobility and a preference for close combat. They should be able to sit back and shoot, even if it's not the default.

Moreover, I see an important distinction between a Blood Angels army and, for example, the Black Templars or World Eaters. The Templars roll into the enemy like a steamroller and smash them; the World Eaters fight similarly, only with an even greater preference for close combat. Blood Angels, in contrast to this, should be mobile, with their Veteran Assault squads, Death Company and inspirational leaders taking the fight to the enemy. The entire army shouldn't simply charge into the enemy.

Take Devastators, for example. Under the current rules these Marines, chosen for their aptitude for shooting the enemy very accurately with heavy weapons at long range, are quite likely to suddenly take it into their heads to start charging towards an enemy half a mile away. I'd expect this of Khorne Berzerkers, but Space Marine Devestators? It strikes a wrong note.

A better way of depicting their tendency towards berzerk rage might be a rule stating that, if they find themselves in charge range at the start of the assault phase, they must take a leadership test or they will charge the enemy. This restricts the craziness to close-range combat, makes the army less unpredictable, but still opens them to clever tactics involving enemy units being used as bait to incite an inadvisable attack. I'm not sure if I'd keep Furious Charge for all the units, but who knows what we'll see. The real point here is that I want an army of Space Marines: Marines with a flaw, with a tendency to go mental and rip their enemies apart in close combat, with some really dead hard assault units, but Space Marines nonetheless--not just crazed animals in power armour.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
26-06-2006, 21:37
Ionfish, thats the way BA are played right now by a loy of players, so the codex shouldn't need too much reworking to emphasize that. The Blood Angels can be an effective mix of shooting and combat, especially when the enemy is coming to them in the case of templars for instance, its why BT players complain, the BA player has the luxury of shooting him up before doing a devastating counter charge. The red thirst makes shooting somewhat unpredictable so the BA usually have a bent towards combat.

Also remember that codex space marines have a balance between shooting and combat.

A rule stating they must charge the enemy if possible might be good. I had an idea that perhaps the extra D6 movement should only apply to units without jump packs, it would balance out the positives and negatives more I think, then make the honour guard and veteran assault squad attractive enough units to take anyway.

Zingbaby
26-06-2006, 22:08
Zing, I don't know that you're accurately portraying what the "old-school" players want, although of course my reading may well be incorrect too--I can only really speak for myself.

Hmm maybe not, thats good. I am beginning to feel like I am stuck in the Divinchi code here hehe... the church (old school BA players, and BA haters alike) are plain refusing to see what is literally spelled out in EVERY piece of BA fluff. The denial has been deeply ingrained over the last few years, for a variety of different reasons. I AM ONLY TRYING TO STATE THE FACTS. :)


I would like to see a Blood Angels army with a certain balance between shooting and close combat, despite having a discernable tendency towards mobility and a preference for close combat. They should be able to sit back and shoot, even if it's not the default.

This is absolutely possible now, and honestly since the 4th edition I've actually seen more BA armies being played this way.


Moreover, I see an important distinction between a Blood Angels army and, for example, the Black Templars or World Eaters. The Templars roll into the enemy like a steamroller and smash them; the World Eaters fight similarly, only with an even greater preference for close combat. Blood Angels, in contrast to this, should be mobile, with their Veteran Assault squads, Death Company and inspirational leaders taking the fight to the enemy. The entire army shouldn't simply charge into the enemy.

Yep sounds cool, but I just want to know where you are getting this?


A better way of depicting their tendency towards berzerk rage might be a rule stating that, if they find themselves in charge range at the start of the assault phase, they must take a leadership test or they will charge the enemy. This restricts the craziness to close-range combat, makes the army less unpredictable, but still opens them to clever tactics involving enemy units being used as bait to incite an inadvisable attack. I'm not sure if I'd keep Furious Charge for all the units, but who knows what we'll see. The real point here is that I want an army of Space Marines: Marines with a flaw, with a tendency to go mental and rip their enemies apart in close combat, with some really dead hard assault units, but Space Marines nonetheless--not just crazed animals in power armour.

This is the coolest idea I've heard in this entire thread.

As far as Furious charge goes, and all of the other BA rules for that matter, there is fluff to justify and explain their existance; though obviously something is going to have to change in the future codex. I am very curious to see if people will still be dissapointed to find out that yet again, the Blood Angels are mostly an Assault army, just as they've always been.

The Dude
27-06-2006, 00:56
Okay, I've done a lot of soul searching over this thread, and I really think my problems stem from stuff like this:


Take Devastators, for example. Under the current rules these Marines, chosen for their aptitude for shooting the enemy very accurately with heavy weapons at long range, are quite likely to suddenly take it into their heads to start charging towards an enemy half a mile away. I'd expect this of Khorne Berzerkers, but Space Marine Devestators? It strikes a wrong note.

It certainly does :eyebrows:. The fact is that the rules that GW came up with to represent the Flaw have essentially made certain units "useless" or, more accurately, risky to take (Terminators also fit in here).


This is the coolest idea I've heard in this entire thread.

Not to sound whiney but you must have missed this at post 25:


The only way the "surge forward" rule should stay is if it has a range on it. Eg if within 12" of an enemy you MUST move towards them (the nearest) and assault (therefore not firing rapid fire weapons) with Furious Charge on a D6 roll of 4+. Furious Charge should ONLY come into effect when this test is failed.

Combine this with may NEVER Sweeping Advance for the Red Thirst (yum-o) and you get close combat units that hit hard but can't wipe out huge mobs of the enemy on their own.

Of course Death Company should be assumed to fail this test all the time Unless a Chaplain is present in which case they have to roll like normal.

I think this would be really characterful in that it forces BA players to keep the enemy at arms length to remain effective, plus you don't get any "Extra" movement, which always irked me . It's essentially an UNPREDICTABLE advantage.

It also opens up tactical possibilities of running cheap expendable (and preferably fast) units in to draw off Blood Angel units. You know, an ACTUAL disadvantage.


I will admit that ionfish put it far more succinctly than myself though ;). I considered having it go on a Ld test as well, but then I thought it would be better if it happened a little more often to make the draw off tactic viable.

Iron Lord
29-06-2006, 22:19
Blood Angles were (and are) my favorite marine list. They look good and they had cool fluff.

Unfortunately, GW decided to screw with the BA lists in 3rd and turn them from the "noble but suffering silently" marines, into frothing nutbags thirsting for blood. Unfortunately, the "rules" that went along with it FORCED players into the mold of playing raving madmen lusting for CC. Since the Black Rage rule meant that you could lose ANY figure to Death Company, noone in their right mind were going to risk seeing that big pricey terminator squad or devastator squad go bye bye from a bad die roll. Thow in the Rhino rush special "overcharged engines", and every single FOTM CC lusting kid was playing BA, subsequently tarnishing their image.

In 2nd Ed, Blood Angels purchased the Death Company as a 0-1 choice and they were flavorful and dead hard, WITHOUT crippling the rest of the army. Most BA troops operated like reguar marines and they worked fine.

As they are right now, BA got stuck with being a default CC army, despite being only middling at it. Yes Death Company is nasty, yes the characters can be nasty, but basic tactical squads are NOT CC troops. Witness the fact that all the BA rhino rush army players immediately went over to play the even cheesier Black Templar list as soon as it was inflicted upon us.

Under 4th, the BA are still a bastardized list, and hopefully they get fixed. As they stand, the are still one of the coolest fluff chapters, but are stuck with pretty poor rules. A return to the 2nd style would be best that old school BA players could hope for, but only time will tell.

macbeth
30-06-2006, 07:49
I am also one of those old school BA players, and I too regret their turning into imperial berserks.

But this idea of taking a Ld test in charge range of an ennemy is... positively brilliant! Seriously, I LOVE the idea!

Maybe we could add that the Death Company cannot take a Ld test: they must always charge.

Arryn
30-06-2006, 14:41
i gotta say i like that too, but i've had too much 2 drink..

GodofWarTx
30-06-2006, 22:47
How about a hybrid of the current no-range system of movement?

Whenever an enemy is within 18"/ of a BA unit, it must begin checking for leadership every turn to see if it doesnt give up its shooting faze in a D6 fleet movement forward? This could put the unit in a bad position, as you can imagine it would, or give it a righteous charge.

I dont know about the lot of you, but i have always played my BA as rather shooty, with the exception of my heavy hitting DC and other assault oriented things besides Tacticals, who are sent in as reserves if needed.

I think its with Rose-colored glasses that people look back to the 2nd Edition BA. They had a lot of the same types of rules the 3rd Edition had . When the Shroud of Sanguinius was revealed, Blood Angels got Frenzy. Whenever the Raid Grainl was nearby, Marines had their movement increased by 2 AND had an increase in WS and S. I view things like Furious Charge as a ghostly reminder of their supernatural connection to their primarch, as whenever they are in items of his presence, they recieve bonus's no other marine can equal.

I think BA marines should increase to 16 points a piece however, possibly 17, but not equal to the +3 points a normal marine list has to pay for his marines to get furious charge, as he can select which units recieve it (ie, those intended to charge) as we Blood Angel players do not have that luxury when it comes to our devastators/shooty tacticals/etc. This slight change here would alieve (spelling?) a lot of the bitching that is flung at the BA, which i find suprising as the BA are a shadow of their former "glory" in the heyday of 3rd Edition.

Crassus
30-06-2006, 23:18
BLOOD ANGELS ARE NOT A CLOSE COMBAT ARMY!!!

*pant, pant, pant*

Sorry for that...

Some one is now making it more obvious thnx