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Ayin
17-07-2015, 01:11
My gaming group went through the following process:
- look at new AoS rules
- look at miniature cabinets jammed with thousands of points of square based models for a rank and file
- look at shelves heaving with books, rules, expansions etc

Decide to carry on playing 8th, hey presto! community continues.

PS as for me personally, I'm going to carry on building 8th armies through ebay I think. If AoS had been something even vaguely similar to warhammer I would have jumped on the new shiny, but as it is, it's just not a game I want to play.


This is pretty much where I am, though unfortunately about half of the people I grew up with gaming and in the community jumped the GW ship years ago.

Scribe of Khorne
17-07-2015, 01:46
Because no matter how great my community is (and it is great), were still gamers and gamers shun dead games for the most part.

If i didnt care about public events and was just going to play out of my garage with the same three guys we would just stick to 8th but history shows in six months to a year 8th will be hard to find players.

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Not only this, but from past conversations, this same group also needs 'official'-ness. After all, they needed 7th to allow them to play as open/loose/random even though many of the same rules existed in 6th and even 5th in 40K.

My group is so small, we may as well just be playing out of a garage, so there is no need for us to accept AoS at all and those who favour fantasy will remain in 8th.

AngryAngel
17-07-2015, 02:43
@Hello Kitty

I always hear how great your warhammer community is, so I find it a bit baffling why a group of players who obviously play and like one game (8th ed) would suddenly drop it, spend lots of time and effort trying to make a new (completely different and totally unrecognisable game) work for them. Surely, it's less effort to get people to continue playing what they already were!?!

My gaming group went through the following process:
- look at new AoS rules
- look at miniature cabinets jammed with thousands of points of square based models for a rank and file
- look at shelves heaving with books, rules, expansions etc

Decide to carry on playing 8th, hey presto! community continues.

PS as for me personally, I'm going to carry on building 8th armies through ebay I think. If AoS had been something even vaguely similar to warhammer I would have jumped on the new shiny, but as it is, it's just not a game I want to play. I will, occasionally, as a mate of mine is a very casual gamer and it appeals to him but otherwise I'll make the sad transition to Oldhammerer.

Anyone else feel like Bilbo boarding the boat to the West?

I thought the same thing, they are so innovative, yet need the rules to tell them to innovate ( like 7th ed 40k ). They won't play a dead game because it is dead and will smell soon, seemingly, yet will comp to heck a really weak system in AoS, but it isn't dead, so it doesn't smell apparently. Will comp a system of a live game to be little like out of the box, yet won't play new games, as they are new..and therefore, cooties. I don't see the distinctions, to be honest his group sounds pretty fickle and narrow minded.

And, yes, I'll board the boat with Bilbo, and Frodo, and all the elves, even though the land of men rules !!



Because no matter how great my community is (and it is great), were still gamers and gamers shun dead games for the most part.

If i didnt care about public events and was just going to play out of my garage with the same three guys we would just stick to 8th but history shows in six months to a year 8th will be hard to find players.

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Gamers don't shun dead games, it just becomes hard to find dead games at a point. Perhaps your group shuns dead games, I know in mine we play dead games all the time and enjoy them. If the group is fickle and can't enjoy something unless it is the new hotness and still being produced, then I guess that is an issue, but one with the players and less about the game being dead. As for years to come you'll be able to get the models and rules, other then a mental hangup I don't see why it needs to be shunned for being dead.

#Deadgameaphobia

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 02:52
Im not really sure why this needs to turn personal and turn into bashing groups.


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Scribe of Khorne
17-07-2015, 02:53
I think the issue though is for pickup games at the local shop. Locally, despite everyone hating on 7th 40K, people still went to it eventually as its just easier to do. I can very easily see AoS going the same route 'in the wild' instead of at your house for example.

I think I get what HelloKitty is saying, its seen around here as well.

EDIT: This was in response to AA.

@HelloKitty, would it be correct to say that if 40K went back to 5th edition style, your group would as well, or now that you've gotten accustomed to its flexability your group would be open to 'optional' rules?

Not sure if you remember our past convo's on this...

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 03:00
If gw went back to 5th edition my area would also largely go back to that style. Whether they still were flexible on optional rules would depend on if the tournament events fired back up on a regular basis.

If yes then optional rules would probably largely be a no no except for garage games as the players largely like to adopt a universal standard for public games.


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Scribe of Khorne
17-07-2015, 03:05
And there you have it. Thats identical to my local area, which again is a smattering of 'garage game' groups, no major store presence, across a wide area and several close by towns. Its just the path to least resistance, and is why these ideological flame wars come up all the time. We all have our preferences and the 'official' one is the de facto game type for the edition.

EDIT: Point stands though, I wish you the best in your efforts. :D

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 03:14
This is very true and thank you


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AngryAngel
17-07-2015, 04:41
I think the issue though is for pickup games at the local shop. Locally, despite everyone hating on 7th 40K, people still went to it eventually as its just easier to do. I can very easily see AoS going the same route 'in the wild' instead of at your house for example.

I think I get what HelloKitty is saying, its seen around here as well.

EDIT: This was in response to AA.

@HelloKitty, would it be correct to say that if 40K went back to 5th edition style, your group would as well, or now that you've gotten accustomed to its flexability your group would be open to 'optional' rules?

Not sure if you remember our past convo's on this...

I know exactly what your speaking of, however, I played plenty of house ruled, scenario games before 7th ed held my hand and told me it was ok. Our group played all the extra add ons and scenario books, but we also wanted the game tighter for the time we did pick up games with each other or new blood. I suppose I find it strange that the group mentality could be so mono focused as to not try any different because it isn't official core game. I'm not trying to bash anyone or their group, but doesn't that seem a bit odd to anyone else ? Considering the nature of this hobby, I always believed people looked outside the box a bit more often. As well, if I knew a group that wouldn't even consider it, my words stand and I've said how I'd view them, if you can think of better descriptors I'm open to hear them, but I'm not going to be afraid of being non pc just because someone may take insult to someone speaking honestly.




If gw went back to 5th edition my area would also largely go back to that style. Whether they still were flexible on optional rules would depend on if the tournament events fired back up on a regular basis.

If yes then optional rules would probably largely be a no no except for garage games as the players largely like to adopt a universal standard for public games.


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See that to me feels like a problem of people, and not a tighter rule set. We've gone back on this again and again, and I think a tighter core rule set is better for the game in general and better for pick up games, which you need to really grow interest. Not everyone lives the game and not everyone has a close group that plays, some only have a couple hours, wants a game once or twice a month, good out of the box rules gives that universal standard, anything else those close groups can house rule.



And there you have it. Thats identical to my local area, which again is a smattering of 'garage game' groups, no major store presence, across a wide area and several close by towns. Its just the path to least resistance, and is why these ideological flame wars come up all the time. We all have our preferences and the 'official' one is the de facto game type for the edition.

EDIT: Point stands though, I wish you the best in your efforts. :D

In my area I have a core group that we will do whatever, play a bazillion different games including dead ones. The only reason we care of games in print is when we play at the store, as you want to show people stuff they can purchase, it works well for advertising, builds interest, etc. We also, members of the group, play lots of pick up games with new blood to help teach and let them do their thing, which is why I am such a big supporter of out of the box rules. We can run whatever we want house ruled, but I would love strong, out of the box rules that offered a good experience for those just stopping in, just makes it flow smoother and we can all come at the game from a common ground.

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 11:57
Im not disagreeing with you. Id love strong rules too.


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tmod
17-07-2015, 18:24
GW have done what is best for business. Something wasn't working, so they tried 7 times to fix it. This didn't work, so instead they went back to the drawing board. Could they have tried again? Yes. AoS proves that they understood partly what was wrong, but in trying to fix this, they have thrown the baby out with the bath water. That's a shame, but it's done and crying and screaming about it isn't helping anyone.


Sorry, but I've seen this several times on here, and it's ridiculous. Warhammer Fantasy Battles was NOT a failed product for 30 years. 1st edition was a success, and so was every edition up to at least 7th edition. 8th was canned, probably for economic reasons, so it's possible it was a failed edition, but it could also be it was not a large enough success to warrant high expectations for a 9th.

Compare to 40k. Has the last seven editions of this been failures as well? Are you really claiming GW's 120 million a year empire was built on products that never sold in any amounts?

GW decided to can a highly successful setting for 30 years, admittedly one in rapid decline, in order to launch Age of Sigmar. Time will show whether this was a prudent move, and we can safely assume GW feel this was their best course of action. We can also assume Fantasy has been hit hard by dramatically falling sales of the whole company in a booming market recently. Some of us would probably have preferred a return to what made Warhammer a success up to 5-6 years ago, but we don't have the whole story. Time will tell...

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Galain
17-07-2015, 18:54
Im not disagreeing with you. Id love strong rules too.


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Then why are you supporting a game that doesn't have them? :eyebrows: Or the company that is pretty much dedicated to never having them?

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 19:01
Then why are you supporting a game that doesn't have them? :eyebrows: Or the company that is pretty much dedicated to never having them?

I have answered this question in depth probably about a half a dozen times now.

Galain
17-07-2015, 19:05
All you've said is that you won't play 8th, despite having a gaming group, because none of them will play a "dead" game. So, instead of trying to persuade them to actually play a decent system (and it's not like you'd have trouble finding games since you have a group), you just roll over and accept the crap system?

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 19:09
All you've said is that you won't play 8th, despite having a gaming group, because none of them will play a "dead" game. So, instead of trying to persuade them to actually play a decent system (and it's not like you'd have trouble finding games since you have a group), you just roll over and accept the crap system?

I'm not in the habit of explaining my value system to strangers on the internet :)

I have explained in depth that there are no legit replacements for WHFB 8th. KoW is not it. Neither is Warthrone. There is nothing else other than just playing other games, which for someone wanting to play with their fantasy dollies is not going to happen or is even remotely the same thing (ie...just play xwing its a better game)

With our comp system the game is a lot of fun for us. And to other groups that are adopting it. We even have a regional event kicking off at the end of September with several partnered cities. those of us participating are not caring about if the system isn't being played rules as written.

Galain
17-07-2015, 19:13
I have explained in depth that there are no legit replacements for WHFB 8th.

Then don't replace 8th.

Even BEFORE the advent of AoS, there was a dedicated Oldhammer movement that let you find and arrange games with older editions if you wanted. And now that movement is growing exponentially. You could help it grow if you wanted, and keep playing the system you liked.

On the other hand, you're free to play AoS, of course. Though I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be long before you have a hard time finding games for it.

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 19:18
Then don't replace 8th.

Even BEFORE the advent of AoS, there was a dedicated Oldhammer movement that let you find and arrange games with older editions if you wanted. And now that movement is growing exponentially. You could help it grow if you wanted, and keep playing the system you liked.

On the other hand, you're free to play AoS, of course. Though I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be long before you have a hard time finding games for it.

Having lived through 20 years of warhammer, sticking to an old edition is fine with a close knit group in your garage but fails outside of that. This same thing was said when 5th went to 6th and when 7th went to 8th. (6th to 7th was basically the same game and there was little fanfare), and after six months or so it falls on its face. Yeah there are people that still play 6th ed, 7th ed, and will be playing 8th ed but they are hard to find here.

If Age of Sigmar fails, then so be it. We'll move on from there. For right now, we're going to do campaigns set there. My dollar is on the 8th ed movement being dead by this time next year except for a few people that bring it up like they have done for 6th here and there and everyone having moved on to either AoS or to another supported system. While we will still do 8th campaigns, that isn't going to stop me from supporting AoS either with our comp system because we have a lot of people that genuinely like it.

Buddy Bear
17-07-2015, 21:02
The difference here is that the change is so drastic that it wouldn't be hard to find players for the old system. Just look at what happened with D&D 4E. It wasn't hard at all to find people playing a version of D&D which wasn't 4E, even after 4E had been out for a while. That's true for my area. Nearly all the gamers in my area revile Age of Sigmar and will be sticking with 8th. And that's just not my friends in a garage, but all the players who've spent the past few months taking part in local Warhammer Fantasy tournaments, which'll continue monthly even now after Age of Sigmar has been released.

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 21:10
That is going to vary area to area. Also thats easy to say now a couple weeks into it. The same stuff was said about 8th in 2010 and 6th in 2000. We will see how booming the 8th community is in summer 2016


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zak
17-07-2015, 22:29
I must admit I read the first couple of pages and then skipped to the end of this thread, but it is clear that this has caused a lot of angst among the Vet's. I sort of agree with both camps to a certain extent, although I certainly lean towards the miffed Vet group! As a player of Warhammer since the early 90's I have seen more than a few edition changes. Personally, I think the way GW have done this is wrong. I think they should have launched a play-testing forum and actually have included their customers rather than excluded them, which seems to have been GW's policy for many years. Especially considering GW have been so open with their rules and army lists. GW understand that new players are where the money is. So the main question is - Will AoS attract more new players than WFB 9th edition?

Galain
17-07-2015, 22:58
The difference here is that the change is so drastic that it wouldn't be hard to find players for the old system. Just look at what happened with D&D 4E. It wasn't hard at all to find people playing a version of D&D which wasn't 4E, even after 4E had been out for a while. That's true for my area. Nearly all the gamers in my area revile Age of Sigmar and will be sticking with 8th. And that's just not my friends in a garage, but all the players who've spent the past few months taking part in local Warhammer Fantasy tournaments, which'll continue monthly even now after Age of Sigmar has been released.

Pretty much this. Comparing the changes from 5th-6th/7th-8th to the changes from 8th to AoS, it's quite obvious there's a HUGE difference. Not the least being that in all the previous editions, it was the same world. This time, they literally blew up the world that people had invested in for the last 30-odd years. Slight change of pace, that.

And as you said, it's pretty much exactly like 4th ed DnD in every way, shape, and form. Down to the flamewars between supporters each system. Only thing is, the 4e supporters lost that battle hardcore, and I think AoS is going the exact same way.

Tokamak
17-07-2015, 23:05
I'm going through the End Times books right now and they're amazing. The stories are great, the campaigns are interesting and the large centrepiece models are actually quite affordable compared to the huge wads of cash you need for a decent core, which ET also solves by allowing for less core if you wish.

The fact that the old world ended bothers me as much as Westeros steering off a cliff in JRR Martin's series. That is to say, none whatsoever as it allows for an urgent plot and desperate twists no longer constrained by keeping the world balanced. A LOT happened during the End Times. It wasn't like GW just wrote 'the end kthxbye'. In fact the Old World went through more motions in these books than the whole history of warhammer combined.

All in all AoS made me really understand the awesomeness that is End Times. I'm expanding my army and considering buying a second one (Thanquol's uprising looks neat) so I can start playing End Times games with it. For now I have enough friends who are also interested. End Times luckily offers me more than enough material to keep playing 8th edition for at least another decade.

The only thing I wonder is why GW axed the whole project within a one year window. I just don't get it. I mean, I get that the end is the end and then there's no more. But why not give players the chance to start hobbying their way into it? The formations are cool, there's endless amount of themes you can think of. There's no way anyone was able to really appreciate End Times in the timespan that GW reserved for it.

tvandyke
17-07-2015, 23:24
GW understand that new players are where the money is. So the main question is - Will AoS attract more new players than WFB 9th edition?

I'm not quite sure why this keeps getting repeated. Companies are always looking for "new" customers in order to grow their customer base but as I explained earlier, losing customers while gaining new ones is a losing proposition. This idea that the old, loyal customer base wasn't spending any money is strange to me. When a new edition was released, it was always the existing customer base that bought the new rule book and the new army books. It was the existing customer base that was always working on some sort of "project" that expanded on an existing army or involved a new one. In both cases the new, prettier models were purchased, at least to some degree. I was in the middle of modelling and painting a Slaanesh army that consisted of quite a few 3rd edition models that I had to get mostly from Ebay, but the army also had some of the new models in it as well. This was coming on the heals of $1500 spent on Forgeworld Chaos Dwarfs. I wasn't the exception. Most of the players in my area and the guys I'd see at tournaments were always working on something. In other words, lots of money was being spent by the existing player base. GW has definitely taken a gamble here. They must truly believe that there is some untapped market that never spent money on Warhammer Fantasy due to the nature of the "massed battle" format and that by going to a smaller, simpler, skirmish style game their overall customer base is going to grow even if that means they lose half or more of their existing customer base. I could always change my mind but as of right now, I loathe the idea of ever giving GW any more of my money and I know that many, many others feel the same way so GW has definitely lost some revenue with this move. Whether or not they make it up with this giant, new, wave of customers that they think are going to flock to AOS remains to be seen.

Tokamak
18-07-2015, 00:00
The Law of Diffusion and Innovation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXuN2drSpg

AngryAngel
18-07-2015, 01:07
Im not disagreeing with you. Id love strong rules too.


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I get it. I just wanted to clarify, as you know I can be a little blunt ( It's the dwarf spirit in me ) but really I try not to be hostile, unless its time to get hostile.



Then why are you supporting a game that doesn't have them? :eyebrows: Or the company that is pretty much dedicated to never having them?

He's in a kind of choice of damnations situation. It isn't so much the fact, perhaps he loves AoS, it is the fact that is all there is now, fantasy wise, that anyone around him will play and he loves to play the games and use his models ( we all do ). If you can't get your group to ever leave its comfort zone, you have very little choices but to move with the herd or never play the game. I'm in a similar boat sometimes. Like I hate AoS think it is the haven the sigmorons, find the fluff beyond description of bad. However, I love spending time with my friends, gaming. Some, may want to do some light AoS, so will I perhaps play it at some point, sad to say, but probably, as that is what we do, play games.

I'll not be buying their books, and won't get much at all to support the system, as I hate it, but if people are playing and want company doing so, like a good friend sometimes your stuck. So it ends up play a system with a lot of out of the box problems, try and fix it, or not play at all. I can't fault him his choice, i'd only fault him if he tried to tell me the system is awesome, but he really hasn't tried to say that, that I've seen.

Scribe of Khorne
18-07-2015, 05:05
Then don't replace 8th.

Even BEFORE the advent of AoS, there was a dedicated Oldhammer movement that let you find and arrange games with older editions if you wanted. And now that movement is growing exponentially. You could help it grow if you wanted, and keep playing the system you liked.

On the other hand, you're free to play AoS, of course. Though I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be long before you have a hard time finding games for it.

This is really my experience as well. For better or worse, GW has replaced WHFB with AoS. Some will play it, but not around here. The fantasy guys where a small enough group, and we dont have a 'public' place that we all gather to play at, so there is no pressure to play the latest thing.

On the flip side, 40K is big enough, has something of a public presence in the area, and will shift from version to version. Even if god forbid, AoS came to 40K.

ewar
18-07-2015, 08:29
That is going to vary area to area. Also thats easy to say now a couple weeks into it. The same stuff was said about 8th in 2010 and 6th in 2000. We will see how booming the 8th community is in summer 2016


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There is a huge difference between this and previous version changes. The move from 5th to 6th was nothing like this. We've gone from a ranked mass battle game to a free form skirmish game, the two are unrecognisable! There isn't a single game mechanic in common.

What I find slightly boggling is that it seems to be the tournament players who are most keen to get AoS to work (from reading reading the Warhammer Forum). Perhaps it's because they play more than most and 5 years of one system is enough to burn out?

I don't know. But square peg and round hole comes to mind.

Getifa Ubazza
18-07-2015, 12:44
Sorry, but I've seen this several times on here, and it's ridiculous. Warhammer Fantasy Battles was NOT a failed product for 30 years. 1st edition was a success, and so was every edition up to at least 7th edition. 8th was canned, probably for economic reasons, so it's possible it was a failed edition, but it could also be it was not a large enough success to warrant high expectations for a 9th.

Compare to 40k. Has the last seven editions of this been failures as well? Are you really claiming GW's 120 million a year empire was built on products that never sold in any amounts?

GW decided to can a highly successful setting for 30 years, admittedly one in rapid decline, in order to launch Age of Sigmar. Time will show whether this was a prudent move, and we can safely assume GW feel this was their best course of action. We can also assume Fantasy has been hit hard by dramatically falling sales of the whole company in a booming market recently. Some of us would probably have preferred a return to what made Warhammer a success up to 5-6 years ago, but we don't have the whole story. Time will tell...

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I totally agree. Sorry my post wasn't clearer. I realised there was something missing from my post, I just couldn't figure out how to word it. Thanks.

Malagor
18-07-2015, 13:01
Sorry, but I've seen this several times on here, and it's ridiculous. Warhammer Fantasy Battles was NOT a failed product for 30 years. 1st edition was a success, and so was every edition up to at least 7th edition. 8th was canned, probably for economic reasons, so it's possible it was a failed edition, but it could also be it was not a large enough success to warrant high expectations for a 9th.

Compare to 40k. Has the last seven editions of this been failures as well? Are you really claiming GW's 120 million a year empire was built on products that never sold in any amounts?

GW decided to can a highly successful setting for 30 years, admittedly one in rapid decline, in order to launch Age of Sigmar. Time will show whether this was a prudent move, and we can safely assume GW feel this was their best course of action. We can also assume Fantasy has been hit hard by dramatically falling sales of the whole company in a booming market recently. Some of us would probably have preferred a return to what made Warhammer a success up to 5-6 years ago, but we don't have the whole story. Time will tell...

Alot of things wrong in this post I see.
First of all, 8e was hardly canned since it was the longest running edition they had, 9e got canned more like it.
And yes, it is true that it's sales numbers were dropping but they were hardly extreme since as far as I know, it was more of a steady decline rather then a sharp drop, much like 40k which is also in a steady decline but both lines were still profitable
According to Darnok, they started AoS right after 8e was released so 8e was hardly a failed edition as well since such extreme changes must have been caused by the failing of the other editions where the decline started(the decline didn't start with 8e).
But time will tell if destroying a game that was still profitable was a good move but I doubt it since they haven't fixed any of the problems that is causing the decline in both their lines.

tmod
18-07-2015, 13:33
Alot of things wrong in this post I see.
First of all, 8e was hardly canned since it was the longest running edition they had, 9e got canned more like it.
And yes, it is true that it's sales numbers were dropping but they were hardly extreme since as far as I know, it was more of a steady decline rather then a sharp drop, much like 40k which is also in a steady decline but both lines were still profitable
According to Darnok, they started AoS right after 8e was released so 8e was hardly a failed edition as well since such extreme changes must have been caused by the failing of the other editions where the decline started(the decline didn't start with 8e).
But time will tell if destroying a game that was still profitable was a good move but I doubt it since they haven't fixed any of the problems that is causing the decline in both their lines.

Completely agree! Not saying 8th WAS indeed failed, but it might for what I know (don't have all facts and numbers). What I'm saying is that we know GW sales have been dropping in a booming market, and Fantasy MIGHT have dropped faster than 40k or be closer to a critically low point in sales. What we do know is that if WHFB was a failed game it would have been scrapped in the early 80s, not now. Eights editions is not a testament to Warhammer never being successful, its a testament to a long term success. Even if it MIGHT have been failing over the last couple of years...

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Autumn Leaves
18-07-2015, 16:08
AoS is not my kind of game and I absolutely will not be playing it.
Are GW bovvered?
No chance.
Me either because...
If GW make some good models that I like I'll still buy them and they will make money out of me.
When I use them to play KoW 2 and other systems they won't care because they will have had my money.
If GW get around to making a game I want to play then sure, I'll play it, even with at least some of their models.
GW has always stated they were a miniatures manufacturer first and foremost.
Thats fine.
Make nice miniatures I want to buy and I'll keep buying them.