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View Full Version : Is "underground" still "on the field of battle"



Greyfire
20-07-2015, 14:34
Apologies if this has been asked and debated before, but I can't find that discussion. If you have a second to help I would appreciate it.

For those rules that state a unit can be removed in order to return on a later turn (Chameleon Skinks for example), are the models removed stilled considered to be on the table? I'm of two minds but "remove it from the battlefield" sounds pretty clear. I thought they weren't considered to be on the table until they return.

So if I'm down to a unit or two of chameleon skinks who are are "hiding", the "no enemy models left on the field of battle" kicks in and I lose the game. That's seems to be the logical end result of having an empty battlefield.

And what about the units setup "underground"? Is that off the battlefield?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

Necronartum
20-07-2015, 17:45
I am very much a servant of Logic. And your line of reasoning is sound.

Essentially, you have answered your own question as far as I am concerned. Is "underground" still "on the field of battle"? Well. No.

So I am in agreement with you.

Otherwise, this would be a horridly exploitable mechanic.

MasterSplinter
20-07-2015, 18:02
As far as i am concerned, i would also say no.
At least on the rules-"conditioning" by the old editions of warhammer a tunneling unit never did count as bein on the table. On the other hand, like i said i am conditioned by the old rules which have no purpose for that anymore (see my other thread for natural rolls of 1īs and 6īs)

wyvirn
22-07-2015, 05:13
Related: I believe Tomb King Carrion birds are not on the battlefield until they charge because they are deployed 'high above' the battlefield and not on it, making them ineligible for a Endure Victory.

LordAislinn
23-07-2015, 11:09
I agree with the above statements, as it wouldn't make sense to count them as being on the battlefield, considering that neither side could conceivably 'see them' and that, therefore, the battlefield would appear empty. It would also make for a very exploitable rule, as it would give one side a guarantee of having unassailable troops hidden on the field, so as to ensure victory. Add to that the 'remove from the battlefield' clause in many rules, and I think that it is fair to consider any unit that isn't 'there' for game purposes to be off the field.

splash
25-07-2015, 17:41
Related: I believe Tomb King Carrion birds are not on the battlefield until they charge because they are deployed 'high above' the battlefield and not on it, making them ineligible for a Endure Victory.

I pointed that out to someone else on this board and they went crazy trying to claim I was wrong. Of course, as with other rage-haters, they didn't offer a reason why...

If came up with the Sudden Death thing, and assassinate. It was claimed that a TK army could just fly some carrion high and wait it out for an automatic victory. I pointed out that in order to claim such a victory, the carrion should be on the table during the last turn. To me, that just makes logical sense.

Again, GW could just as well come out and claim that's how it works, they count anywhere they are, and logic be damned. That wouldn't surprise me.

Greyfire
25-07-2015, 18:10
It was claimed that a TK army could just fly some carrion high and wait it out for an automatic victory. I pointed out that in order to claim such a victory, the carrion should be on the table during the last turn. To me, that just makes logical sense.
I really think GW was thinking that we would be considerate enough to not think that such tactics were fair or intended. "Removed from table" means just that. And that tactic won't work except with the people that are claiming the new AoS is broken. None of our play has had anyone twisting the rules for actual auto-wins, just hypothetical grumbles really.

Now, if they fly off the table for several turns to stay safe and then return near the end, it would work. But I've also lost to Dwarves in 7th and 8th that hid the Anvil behind a hill on the far side of the table where I'd never be able to reach it while it whittled away my units. I can live with both that old tactic and this new "hide-until-it-matters" tactic.

splash
26-07-2015, 15:41
I really think GW was thinking that we would be considerate enough to not think that such tactics were fair or intended. "Removed from table" means just that. And that tactic won't work except with the people that are claiming the new AoS is broken. None of our play has had anyone twisting the rules for actual auto-wins, just hypothetical grumbles really.

Which is good, because while the rules are loose, the wild interpretations are only used by those with an actual agenda to break the game, not to actually have fun. And it only serves to further confuse those that are honestly confused.


Now, if they fly off the table for several turns to stay safe and then return near the end, it would work.

I agree. I don't think the intent was to have it played like a jackwagon would, and merely fly his carrion high and then go get a drink while the other player moves about for 6 rounds until the inevitable end and loss. Some people are intentionally ignoring common sense in order to, as you put it, break the game on purpose.


But I've also lost to Dwarves in 7th and 8th that hid the Anvil behind a hill on the far side of the table where I'd never be able to reach it while it whittled away my units. I can live with both that old tactic and this new "hide-until-it-matters" tactic.

Well, the anvil was still actually on the table, wasn't it, and so you, technically, had a chance to get to it before the game ended. I don't have enough info on your game to say otherwise.

I've mentioned this in some other posts, but if GW were to just come out with a FAQ, I'm sure most or some or all of this can be cleared up and we can play it the logical way, or the broken way.