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Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 12:46
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

aprilmanha
06-08-2015, 12:52
I guess no Summon spell will do anything then, since if its not already in play, it can't be summoned, and if it is in play... then it's already on the table and can't be summoned..

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 12:56
I guess no Summon spell will do anything then, since if its not already in play, it can't be summoned, and if it is in play... then it's already on the table and can't be summoned..



Not quite. In order to summon a unit you must have at least one unit to give your wizard the summon unit spell. As long as that unit is alive and you have the models you can summon said unit all you want. Its only when that unit is no longer on the table you cant summon it as you've lost the summon unit spell. Thus you can summon multiple zombie units as long as there is at least some zombies there on the table

Lycannus
06-08-2015, 13:04
So you can only summon seraphon special characters if you have multiple models of them? Really?

aprilmanha
06-08-2015, 13:10
Ohh Ok then.

Seems easy enough to just have a minimum unit of any unit you want a then just summon them until the dice wear out then :D

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 13:12
So you can only summon seraphon special characters if you have multiple models of them? Really?


I'll be honest here. Haven't read their scrolls. I'm judging it off units. Though without the character on board in first place he/she wouldn't be in the army as he was never deployed. To be fair the amount of people who have 10, 15 nagash models or bloodthirsters should have no bother having multiple seraphon characters at least according to some posters lol

Denny
06-08-2015, 13:13
So you can only summon seraphon special characters if you have multiple models of them? Really?

This is a rather good point.


I'll be honest here. Haven't read their scrolls. I'm judging it off units. Though without the character on board in first place he/she wouldn't be in the army as he was never deployed. To be fair the amount of people who have 10, 15 nagash models or bloodthirsters should have no bother having multiple seraphon characters at least according to some posters lol

Thing is this isn't just characters, its special characters.

So, in order to summon Chakax, the Eternity Warden you'd need to already have deployed Chakax, the Eternity Warden.
Most Lizardmen players don't have several copies of this model of course, because he's just one guy and used to be unique . . .

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 13:14
Ohh Ok then.

Seems easy enough to just have a minimum unit of any unit you want a then just summon them until the dice wear out then :D



And that would be within the rules. Its where people are saying they can summon any unit which assuming basic English reading level they'd know cant be done as again its not what you bring its what you put down plus the wizard does not have summon as a listed spell

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 13:15
Double post



Tapatalk is annoying

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 13:20
This is a rather good point.



Thing is this isn't just characters, its special characters.

So, in order to summon Chakax, the Eternity Warden you'd need to already have deployed Chakax, the Eternity Warden.
Most Lizardmen players don't have several copies of this model of course, because he's just one guy and used to be unique . . .




Yes as without him your wizard wont have the summon chakax spell as its not listed on wizards card.





Most players don't have multiple copies of characters apart from some on here who apparently can field 15 nagash models.



Admittedly I could be very wrong, usually am but as written unless your wizard has the summon spell on their warscroll they cant actually use it unless you unlock it by having a unit in your army on the table that gives them the summon ability

Poncho160
06-08-2015, 13:31
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell


That is just your interpretation, please point to where in the rules any of what you have said I write down.

Bede19025
06-08-2015, 13:38
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

You say that this is the rule as intended.

What is the source of your knowledge as to the intent of the summoning rule?

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 13:39
That is just your interpretation, please point to where in the rules any of what you have said I write down.




Show me on a wizards warscroll where summon is listed in their spells list without having a unit that allows them too. As if its not listed they cant do it without the rule from the unit giving them a summon spell.



As for a source well I can read and unless it says on a wizards scroll they know the summon spell they don't. Is summon listed on any wizards warscroll before a unit that can be summoned allows them too. Simple english.

Not that it really needs a source. This is my opinion, seemingly people whine on more than losing 30 years of their game. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is just based off the rules that I have read

Bede19025
06-08-2015, 14:01
As for a source well I can read and unless it says on a wizards scroll they know the summon spell they don't. Is summon listed on any wizards warscroll before a unit that can be summoned allows them too. Simple english.

Not that it really needs a source. This is my opinion, seemingly people whine on more than losing 30 years of their game. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is just based off the rules that I have read

You said "rules as intended", which suggests you've got a line into the person (people) the wrote the rules and told you what they meant- even if that intent wasn't all that clearly expressed in the written rule. Now you're saying it's your opinion based on your reading of the written rule. So you have no more information than anyone else.

That being said, I agree with you to a point.

There are some wizards that don't have a summon spell on their WS. (e.g. Necromancer). They get their spell from a unit (e.g. Zombies). If the Zombies aren't in the army, how does the wizard get the spell? It's no different than a hero who imparts a buff to units in the army. No one would argue that the units in the army can get the buff if the hero isn't in the army or is no longer on the table having been slain.

But there are other wizards who do have summoning spells on their WS (e.g. Great Bray Shaman). He's got a spell called "Savage Dominion" which allows him to summon one Monster. How do you explain that?

Choombatta
06-08-2015, 14:06
What about units that are in your army, but not deployed on the battlefield?
"In your army" does not mean deployed on the battlefield.
Many units can be deployed off the battlefield, or under it, etc.
Considering "In your army" can be interpreted many ways ( i.e. in your collection, on your shelf, warscroll in hand, etc. ), until any sort of official clarification from GW comes out, all of these are just opinions.
Use whatever summoning guidelines your gaming group agrees to until then.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2015, 14:07
This is my opinion, seemingly people whine on more than losing 30 years of their game. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is just based off the rules that I have read

My opinion is that what the designers of the game meant to happen with regards to certain rules, is not the same as what the rules they wrote actually ended out saying.

So to summon X, you need a copy of X on the table to be able to grant the ability to summon X.
Sounds silly of course but there's nothing that says X can only be on the table by being summoned, or that X is somehow unique.

Is this what the writers intended?
Probably not.

Nothing wrong with house ruling it to allow you access to all the spells on warscrolls that would grant you the ability if they were in play though.
Same as how there's nothing wrong with house ruling that you measure to the models base and not the model on the base.

Poncho160
06-08-2015, 14:13
The rules do not state either way, which way this should be played, no one can argue about rules as intended or rules as written because the "rules" simply do not cover the matter.

It is going to have to be decided between each gaming group or before each pick up game (which will be fun for those involved if they disagree).

Coming from a outlet fluff perspective I feel that wizards should be able to summon any unit that has the correct summons spell on their warscroll . Really doesn't make sense, fluff wise if they can't

Kegslayer
06-08-2015, 14:18
An easy example with my zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

Poncho160
06-08-2015, 14:39
Here are what the rules say;

All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

I want to use my zombies in the game as summoned troops. Therefore I get the warscroll. No where in the rules does it say, I have to have these troops present on the table.

Choombatta
06-08-2015, 14:43
An easy example with my zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

True, but you can build your army with warscrolls that are not deployed on the battlefield to start.
So if I have a unit of zombies in "reserve", I cannot summon any zombies until that unit actually touches the table?

As pointed out earlier, I can only summon Kroq Gar if I already have Kroq Gar on the battlefield to start?
Now what if the warscroll for a special character states you cannot have more than 1 of that model on the battlefield at any given time, yet the warscroll for that special character also has the summon ability on it for all wizards?
The summon spell for that character can never be used?
Then why even create a summon spell for it?

Denny
06-08-2015, 14:47
An easy example with my zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

But the Scroll says: "Death Wizards know the following spell, in addition to any other spells they know: Raise Zombies"

It doesn't say that a unit of zombies needs to be deployed on the table to know the spell.

As per the RAI, I always assumed that, the reason the details of the spell are on the unit summoned, (rather than the unit that does the summoning) is because otherwise each death wizard would need a list of twenty five-odd spells on his warscroll.

Talk about needless duplication! Much more sensible to just list the spell once under each scroll.

As I said, just my interpretation.

Dezartfox
06-08-2015, 14:49
Here are what the rules say;

All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

I want to use my zombies in the game as summoned troops. Therefore I get the warscroll. No where in the rules does it say, I have to have these troops present on the table.

Correct. Rules say bring the warscrolls you want to use.

3eland
06-08-2015, 15:20
Dragon ogres.

That unit says that if a wizard is within X inches they gain a spell in addition to the ones they already know.

Which is pretty much what you are saying but obviously not restricted to the X inches.

However summon spells do not state anything to the likes of "if this unit is within X or if you bring/deploy X".

Therefore I do not believe a unit must be deployed on the battle field before a wizard knows how to summon them.

blindingdark
06-08-2015, 16:00
But the Scroll says: "Death Wizards know the following spell, in addition to any other spells they know: Raise Zombies"

It doesn't say that a unit of zombies needs to be deployed on the table to know the spell.

As per the RAI, I always assumed that, the reason the details of the spell are on the unit summoned, (rather than the unit that does the summoning) is because otherwise each death wizard would need a list of twenty five-odd spells on his warscroll.

Talk about needless duplication! Much more sensible to just list the spell once under each scroll.

As I said, just my interpretation.

This. It has been written this way for this reason. You would need pages for each wizards rules descriptions if it was with the summoner.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2015, 16:19
As per the RAI, I always assumed that, the reason the details of the spell are on the unit summoned, (rather than the unit that does the summoning) is because otherwise each death wizard would need a list of twenty five-odd spells on his warscroll.

It would make more sense to just list it under their spells as there's certainly room to fit a single additional spell under the list of spells each wizard knows.
eg. Summon: *
Then each warscroll for a summon-able unit has the term Summon: [Name of Unit] which then details what the spell does.

GW is bad at writing rules though.

Nicreap
06-08-2015, 16:32
An easy example with my zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

Yes and it says Zombies can be summonned by any Death wizard. I have read through all the warscrolls and your interpretation is just wrong. Every spell or ability is very clearly worded. It is Either A) a command ability, so only your general who has to be on the table can use it. B) it has a range of effect, again requiring the unit to be on the table, or C) it says when this model is on the table...

If your interpretation is corret why would GW bother stating models need to be on the table for their abilities to be in effect?

Perfect example is a Treekin, as long as a treekin model in on the board all sylvaneth wizards know regrowth, which is on the treekin warscroll. If your interpretation was correct that statement is entirely redundant. Furthermore, Kieng Leuoen from Brettonia. His crown states as long as his model is on the table all free people are immune to battlseshock. Once again, if your interpretation were correct, that entire requirement is pointless.

The game clearly states and assumes you have the warscrolls for any model you wish to use, and based on the restrictive language over these abilities only work while the model is on the table, GW clearly intends Warscrolls to be active all the time. Each Warscroll provides the conditions under which spells or abilities are relevant. For the Dragon Ogre, as long as a chaos wizard is within X inches they know the spell. For sylvaneth Wizards as long as there is a Treekin on the table, they know regrowth. For undead, as long as you have an Undead wizard on the table, it knows all the summoning spells for the warscrolls/models you brought to the game with you, regardless of whether they are on the table or not. It's really not that big a deal, only Nagash and Slann really brake summoning, because most other wizards only get 1 attempt without any bonuses to summon per turn.

aprilmanha
06-08-2015, 16:59
Of course you can only use Warscrolls that you declared at the start of the game during the "you pick one, I pick one" process.
Unless of course, you kept picking after your opponent stopped, but then you are likely to have given away the SD objective to do so.

Overtninja
06-08-2015, 17:13
Bring a warscroll for a unit that can be summoned, and grants a summon x spell, and the wizards know the spell. That's pretty cut and dry.

The question is not 'is summoning legal', the question is 'how are you going to allow summoning to work in your gaming group', which is a more productive discussion.

The beginning game warscroll choice thing is a good point though - if you're planning on summoning a unit but you aren't putting it on the field, you should probably wait until the end to declare them, to see if your opponent will finish placing. If they don't, you might have to start putting dead drops on the field to represent the warscrolls you intend to use, which will give them an advantage numerically (though they might still be under the SD range). It's probably smarter to deploy some of the models you intend to summon as actual units on the field, so you don't use up a warscroll slot on summoning potential.

This is kind of a moot point though, since you could always just pad the wounds on the field in an 'x wounds' game and then bring extra warscrolls up to the limit to allow for summoning.

Charistoph
06-08-2015, 17:44
Bring a warscroll for a unit that can be summoned, and grants a summon x spell, and the wizards know the spell. That's pretty cut and dry.

The question is not 'is summoning legal', the question is 'how are you going to allow summoning to work in your gaming group', which is a more productive discussion.

True. Summoning is not limited by the warscrolls of units put on the table, it is simply limited to the models and warscrolls you have brought.


The beginning game warscroll choice thing is a good point though - if you're planning on summoning a unit but you aren't putting it on the field, you should probably wait until the end to declare them, to see if your opponent will finish placing. If they don't, you might have to start putting dead drops on the field to represent the warscrolls you intend to use, which will give them an advantage numerically (though they might still be under the SD range). It's probably smarter to deploy some of the models you intend to summon as actual units on the field, so you don't use up a warscroll slot on summoning potential.

The base rules do not limit the number of Warscrolls available to you, nor to only what is on the table. It is a good idea to let your opponent know that you are planning on Summoning more than what will be on the table at the start of the game. It is good sportsmanship, if nothing else.

Some areas are limiting your army to a certain number of Warscrolls, and using that to define what you put on the field. This is the only way to truly limit Summoning without addressing it directly.

Avian
06-08-2015, 17:58
It would make more sense to just list it under their spells as there's certainly room to fit a single additional spell under the list of spells each wizard knows.
eg. Summon: *
Then each warscroll for a summon-able unit has the term Summon: [Name of Unit] which then details what the spell does.

GW is bad at writing rules though.

That would make it awkward to add new summonable units, as you'd need to errata the scrolls for all Undead wizards.

wyvirn
06-08-2015, 18:42
If we're going on the 'only on the field' interpretation, does that mean my opponent's Vampire can summon Tomb Guard if I bring a unit of them? The war scrolls don't mention only friendly wizards can know the summoning spell.

Poncho160
06-08-2015, 20:19
If we're going on the 'only on the field' interpretation, does that mean my opponent's Vampire can summon Tomb Guard if I bring a unit of them? The war scrolls don't mention only friendly wizards can know the summoning spell.

Yeah don't see why not, the tomb kings summon spells say the key words "Death Wizard".

Makes sense as how all the undead are one faction now.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2015, 20:37
That would make it awkward to add new summonable units, as you'd need to errata the scrolls for all Undead wizards.

I think you misunderstood, or I wrote it badly....or both.
What I mean is, if the intention was to allow wizards to summon any unit with a summon spell on it's warscroll without it needing to be on the table then all they needed to do was give all the wizards the spell "Summon *" with * being determined by whatever unit you wished to summon.

Then on each of the summonable warscrolls you detail what the summon spell does and it's casting value and so on.


TO clarify.
On the wizards warscroll under their list of spells they know you have the spell "Summon Unit".

On the warscroll of a summonable unit you have the casting value and effects of the spell "Summon Unit" that summons that unit.

So no need for a wizard to have a list of 20+ summon spells in their description and no need to change them if new units get added.

Overtninja
06-08-2015, 20:42
I would suggest that each player should provide warscrolls for their army, including those units they wish to summon. It wouldn't be reasonable for a player to summon another player's units to the field because they happen to be playing the same faction - especially if they themselves don't actually have the models for it! It would be absurd if, in the above example, your opponent summoned your casualties after a punishing round of combat and you thus couldn't reinforce the unit, for instance.

This is one of those places where common sense should prevail - in a game where both players are playing the same armies, each player should outline what they plan to use and summon during the game.

Alternately, for lulz, you could in fact allow the summoning of each other's models to the field - so long as you made sure they got back to the right people at the end of the game!

edit- actually, this would make for a rad Necromancer duel game, especially with more than two players. 'Ha HA, I have summoned all of your Zombies, now you cannot summon them yourself!' 'Fool, While you were doing that I have summoned both your Terrorgheists!'

SanDiegoSurrealist
06-08-2015, 22:02
GW is in the biz of selling models.

"Play with what ever models you have in your collection, as few or as many as you want." that is in the rules.

If you own the model, you have the war scroll and can summon it. It is that simple.

There are no unique characters anymore so yes you could play with 10 Lord Kroaks if you have 10 Lord Kroak models.

The reason it does not have what a wizard can summon on his War Scroll is for ease of adding and removing units.
A Chaos Wizards Warscroll would be 3 pages otherwise.

SanDiegoSurrealist
06-08-2015, 22:18
I also think that Summoning is not going to be a core element of the game for very long.
This is just my hypothesis, I could be very wrong.

We have only seen 2 true AoS armies so far, and neither of them have summoning.
The only summoning is coming from the old units.
Seems to me GW was just throwing us legacy players a bone by not voiding our armies from the get go.
I suspect that as new units are released and old units are phased out this will be the case.
Again just a theory, but this summoning discussion maybe moot.

Spiney Norman
07-08-2015, 10:26
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

Here's the problem, this is your view it is completely unsupported by the rules, in addition the summoning of named seraphon characters suggests to me that the intention was for you to be able to summon units that were not on the table at the start as being able to play with multiple copies of the same named character seem more likely to be an oversight than being able to summon models that are not already on the table.

Interestingly the Balewind vortex does state that you only need to own the model in order to summon it, you are not required to have it on the table (in fact you are actually forbidden from doing so) which demonstrates that warscroll abilities (specifically spell abilities) can be 'active' without the unit itself being on the field.


I also think that Summoning is not going to be a core element of the game for very long.
This is just my hypothesis, I could be very wrong.

We have only seen 2 true AoS armies so far, and neither of them have summoning.
The only summoning is coming from the old units.
Seems to me GW was just throwing us legacy players a bone by not voiding our armies from the get go.
I suspect that as new units are released and old units are phased out this will be the case.
Again just a theory, but this summoning discussion maybe moot.

Did the revised sylvaneth rules not retain the dryad summoning ability for the branch wraith? I appreciate it works somewhat differently to the other summoning abilities but it kind of shows GW intend summoning to continue being a thing.

Bob Hunk
07-08-2015, 13:42
My view is that if you have the models and a copy of the warscroll, you can summon whatever you like. :)


Admittedly I could be very wrong

But you sounded so certain when you wrote the thread title! ;) :p


What about units that are in your army, but not deployed on the battlefield?
"In your army" does not mean deployed on the battlefield.

Indeed.


An easy example with my zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

Please define "warscroll is in play"...? :) Nowhere in the rules does it tell you the scrolls must be "in play". The rules simply say you "need the warscrolls for the units you want to use". Who knows what that means? :) Printed out and lined up neatly along the edge of the battlefield? Printed out in a folder nearby? Tucked in your bag? Saved on your iPad? Any limit we set as to what defines possessing the warscrolls is entirely arbitrary and not supported by the rules. :)


Here are what the rules say;

All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

I want to use my zombies in the game as summoned troops. Therefore I get the warscroll. No where in the rules does it say, I have to have these troops present on the table.

Exactly. :)


So you can only summon seraphon special characters if you have multiple models of them? Really?

Well...that may seem like a good point to support the "don't need to be on the table" argument, but there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a 'Unique' unit any more. Nothing in the rules prevents you taking multiples of the same named character now...

SanDiegoSurrealist
07-08-2015, 14:31
Did the revised sylvaneth rules not retain the dryad summoning ability for the branch wraith? I appreciate it works somewhat differently to the other summoning abilities but it kind of shows GW intend summoning to continue being a thing.

Of the new Sylvaneth only Branchwraith has a summon ability, and it can only summon Dryads.
The Tree Lord Ancient is a Sylvaneth Wizard but can only summon old units, can not summon Dryads, the summoning wording has been removed from their NEW warscroll.
Dryads are now Sylvannth and they are no longer listed in the Wood Elf Army.

Charistoph
07-08-2015, 16:56
Of the new Sylvaneth only Branchwraith has a summon ability, and it can only summon Dryads.
The Tree Lord Ancient is a Sylvaneth Wizard but can only summon old units, can not summon Dryads, the summoning wording has been removed from their NEW warscroll.
Dryads are now Sylvannth and they are no longer listed in the Wood Elf Army.

And it is no different from the Wood Elves Warscroll book released with the launch of Age of Sigmar. The Dryad Summons Spell is not on the Dryads' Warscroll, it is on the Brachwraith's.

Look at the Seraphon, Daemons, and Undead for clues on how summoning may change. So far, nothing else has changed aside from the group the Warscrolls are listed with in the app.

Aezeal
09-08-2015, 19:28
I'm not sure this is right, since you don't have to deploy your whole army you can just have warscrolls but have them not deployed and still summon them.

Poncho160
09-08-2015, 19:33
Classic case of don't title a thread "You're doing it wrong"! Haha :)

Charistoph
09-08-2015, 20:52
I'm not sure this is right, since you don't have to deploy your whole army you can just have warscrolls but have them not deployed and still summon them.

Everything set up at the beginning of the game is your army. Everything else is in Reserves awaiting the hand of fate.

Nothing in the base rules limits your Warscrolls to just what is in your army, though.

theunwantedbeing
09-08-2015, 22:12
Everything else is in Reserves awaiting the hand of fate.

Where it plays no part in the game.

Otherwise you could have a load of say....artillery sat on your board edge "in reserve" shooting at the enemy every shooting phase.

Charistoph
09-08-2015, 22:31
Where it plays no part in the game.

It never actually states that, nor does it state that the rules in their Warscrolls are inaccessible. There are many ways where a unit is in Reserves, but comes later on to the table. Summoning is one way. Others are brought on in other ways, such as the Green Knight or the Assassins.


Otherwise you could have a load of say....artillery sat on your board edge "in reserve" shooting at the enemy every shooting phase.

Presumptive. The rules never allow that, either.

Aezeal
09-08-2015, 23:47
BTW the current rules do not say named characters are only to be used once ;).

Aezeal
09-08-2015, 23:55
Where it plays no part in the game.

Otherwise you could have a load of say....artillery sat on your board edge "in reserve" shooting at the enemy every shooting phase.

Nothing says you can do that.

However the rules do say
1. you can bring any number of models and warscrolls.
2. You can deploy any number of them during deployment
3. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand.

- Now summoning pretty much is the only thing that could refer too.

Aezeal
10-08-2015, 00:00
Ma gic

Wanderer Wizards know the Summon
Hounds spell in addition to any others they
know. Orion can also attempt to cast this
spell once in each of your hero phases as if
he were a wizard.



Nothing mentions they have to be on the table. You just need the warscroll to show the wanderers know this spell.
(Chaos deamons and balance will just never work I fear.)

Dosiere
10-08-2015, 04:52
There are absolutely zero rules that limit summoning in this way. Where did this even come from and why?

I see a lot of declarations from people who thinks this makes sense but all the actual, you know, rules for the game indicate otherwise.

It's a legitimate house rule, but it's certainly not part of the RAW.

Rolsheen
10-08-2015, 14:16
Newbie to AOS. OK so I played a game recently with Vampire Counts, one of the new missions. I deployed a third of my army on the board (Nagash and the three Mortarchs) the rest of the army had to deploy in the movement phase of the second turn. First turn Nagash summoned Skeletons, Ghouls, Dire Wolves etc none of which were included in the army at the start of the game because all those units specifically list that all Death Wizards know the summon spells, it doesn't mention anywhere that a unit has to be included in the army (whether on the board or not) Is this right

wyvirn
10-08-2015, 15:01
We're all newbies to AoS, it hasn't been out for a month. So you're in good company. I would say you played correctly, and I think the consensus would agree with you.

SteveW
10-08-2015, 15:34
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

You lost the plot with your first sentence. You have to add words to the rules to make your version of summoning possible. You know who doesn't? People playing it like the rules read.

SteveW
10-08-2015, 15:36
Presumptive. The rules never allow that, either.Can't measure from something not on the table.

FlashGordon
18-08-2015, 11:02
Fast question, instead of opening a new thread. How do Nagash summon heroes? can't find any hero unit in TK or VC that can be summoned. (can only find the monsters like terrorgheist)

And im quite sure you do not need the unit on the board since all unit entries are warscrolls. It says that Death Wizards know the "summon varghulf" spell, in addition to any other spells they know. This is so that when new warscrolls come out they just write in the new warscroll: "Any Death, Nature, Dark Wizard know the X spell, in addition to any other spells they know", without changing the original (for example) Necromancer scroll.

Spiney Norman
18-08-2015, 11:17
Fast question, instead of opening a new thread. How do Nagash summon heroes? can't find any hero unit in TK or VC that can be summoned. (can only find the monsters like terrorgheist)

Afaik the only characters that can be summoned presently are lizardmen/seraphon characters that can be summoned by slann, this includes named characters like kroq-gar etc.

Shipmonkey
18-08-2015, 13:08
BTW the current rules do not say named characters are only to be used once ;).

They started fixing that in the latest book.

Gorthor21
18-08-2015, 15:53
could you clarify how they fixed it?

Spiney Norman
18-08-2015, 20:23
They started fixing that in the latest book.

Ummm, what?

Are you saying they altered the core rules of the game, printed the changes in a 45 hardback book and didn't update the free downloadable rules set on their website???

If we were talking about anyone other than GW I would dismiss the possibility outright, but even so, would you mind quoting this and anything else they have changed

Charistoph
18-08-2015, 21:23
Afaik the only characters that can be summoned presently are lizardmen/seraphon characters that can be summoned by slann, this includes named characters like kroq-gar etc.

Heros that are also Monsters (or riding them and all one unit/model) may be summoned by a Bray-Shaman, regardless of army or Alliance.

Shipmonkey
18-08-2015, 23:35
could you clarify how they fixed it?

All the special characters in the quest for Ghal Maraz book(The Glotkin, Morbidex, Gutrot) state you may only have one of them. And yes, the AoS phone app has those updated Warscrolls.

Charistoph
19-08-2015, 03:46
All the special characters in the quest for Ghal Maraz book(The Glotkin, Morbidex, Gutrot) state you may only have one of them. And yes, the AoS phone app has those updated Warscrolls.

Glotkin doesn't have it on his warscroll, unless the app didn't update properly...

Shipmonkey
19-08-2015, 04:39
Glotkin doesn't have it on his warscroll, unless the app didn't update properly...


Interesting, the app on my iPhone shows the new full color Warscroll, but on my IPad, it's still showing the older black and white one. I updated the app on the iPad and it gave me the Forgeworld scrolls, but still didn't update the Rotbringers.

75hastings69
19-08-2015, 05:24
So don't the AoS cover this thoroughly already?

The bearded one
19-08-2015, 05:27
The AoS rules are nowhere near balanced (there are even multiple auto-win combos) - so why would summoning have an inbuilt factor limiting which summoning spells a wizard has to balance it out :p

Tarrell
19-08-2015, 05:55
From the Vampire counts Book:
Nagash: He knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield, Hand of Dust and Soul Stealer spells, as well as any spells known by other Death Wizards on the battlefield.

Arkhan the Black: Arkhan the Black is a wizard.
He knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Curse of Years spells. Arkhan also knows the spells of any Death Wizard that is within 18" of him.

(NO Undead Summoning Spells)
Neferata: Neferata is a wizard
She knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Dark Mist spells.
Mannfred: Mannfred is a wizard
He knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Wind of Death spells.
Count Mannfred:
He knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Wind of Death spells
Vlad von Carstein: Vlad von Carstein is a wizard
He knowsthe Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and CurseSoul spells.
Vampire Lord:
They know the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Spirit Blight spells
Necromancers:
He knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Vanhel’s Danse Macabre spells.

************************************************** *********************

Written on the following Units:
Magic; Death Wizards know the following spell, in addition to any other spells they know
Vargheists, Fell Bats, Bat Swarms, Zombies, Dire Wolves, Skeletons, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Ghouls, Crypt Horrors, Varghulf, Wraith, Banshee, Spirits host, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheist, Zombie Dragon.

No other unit or character can be summoned by magic.

Problems, No where are any wizard in the undead mentioned as death wizards, so its just an assumption.
Apparently all Death wizards know the summoning spells for the units listed above, however nothings ever mentioned on the character profiles just the units.

Charistoph
19-08-2015, 06:01
Problems, No where are any wizard in the undead mentioned as death wizards, so its just an assumption.
Apparently all Death wizards know the summoning spells for the units listed above, however nothings ever mentioned on the character profiles just the units.

Review the Keywords for Wizard and Death.

75hastings69
19-08-2015, 06:03
The AoS rules are nowhere near balanced (there are even multiple auto-win combos) - so why would summoning have an inbuilt factor limiting which summoning spells a wizard has to balance it out :p

I know mate, I was joking. The AoS rules are an embarresment of course they wouldn't cover in any depth the vague crap that is left to the players to figure out.

I hear AoS 2nd ed is just going to ship with 2 sheets of plain paper so you can make your own rules up! (obviously using both sides) why should games devs have to put any effort in when people seem to accept and defend piles of **** like AoS

It's also a hammer
19-08-2015, 07:37
You said "rules as intended", which suggests you've got a line into the person (people) the wrote the rules and told you what they meant- even if that intent wasn't all that clearly expressed in the written rule. Now you're saying it's your opinion based on your reading of the written rule. So you have no more information than anyone else.

That being said, I agree with you to a point.

There are some wizards that don't have a summon spell on their WS. (e.g. Necromancer). They get their spell from a unit (e.g. Zombies). If the Zombies aren't in the army, how does the wizard get the spell? It's no different than a hero who imparts a buff to units in the army. No one would argue that the units in the army can get the buff if the hero isn't in the army or is no longer on the table having been slain.

But there are other wizards who do have summoning spells on their WS (e.g. Great Bray Shaman). He's got a spell called "Savage Dominion" which allows him to summon one Monster. How do you explain that?

because that spell is on the shamen's war scroll whereas in the vampire list the summon zombie/skeleton/grave guard etc is on the units war scroll. Therefore you need to have the unit to have the spell in that case

Tarrell
19-08-2015, 07:47
I think we can all agree, everything is not set down well and a lot is left for interpretation.

75hastings69
19-08-2015, 08:24
So we can all agree that the "game" and the "rules" for AoS aren't actually anywhere near complete enough to be usable.

Rolsheen
19-08-2015, 12:05
Afaik the only characters that can be summoned presently are lizardmen/seraphon characters that can be summoned by slann, this includes named characters like kroq-gar etc.

Cairn Wraith and Tomb Banshee, both Heroes, both can be summoned

Choombatta
19-08-2015, 14:34
So we can all agree that the "game" and the "rules" for AoS aren't actually anywhere near complete enough to be usable.

Drama much?
No,we cannot all agree, I think the rules work just fine for our gaming group, and we have somehow managed to use the rules for quite a few games now.
Being able to play a full game, and even multiple games in a single night has been a huge boon for us.
Since we only get together 1 night a week to play, 8th edition games usually took us anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks to complete a game (so! many! rules!).

Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 14:52
Drama much?
No,we cannot all agree, I think the rules work just fine for our gaming group, and we have somehow managed to use the rules for quite a few games now.
Being able to play a full game, and even multiple games in a single night has been a huge boon for us.
Since we only get together 1 night a week to play, 8th edition games usually took us anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks to complete a game (so! many! rules!).

I'm a little curious as to why, AoS games are taking us about the same amount of time as a wfb game using a similar quantity of models. There are plenty of rules interactions to get your head round in AoS as well once you factor in 20-30 warscrolls all interacting with each other. In some ways wfb was actually easier to get your head round, at least everybody's shields worked the same way instead of having about 20 different varieties all with different rules.

Choombatta
19-08-2015, 15:19
I'm a little curious as to why, AoS games are taking us about the same amount of time as a wfb game using a similar quantity of models. There are plenty of rules interactions to get your head round in AoS as well once you factor in 20-30 warscrolls all interacting with each other. In some ways wfb was actually easier to get your head round, at least everybody's shields worked the same way instead of having about 20 different varieties all with different rules.

I, of course, can only speak for myself here, and let me preface with I loved 8th edition WHFB.

In 8th edition, we constantly found ourselves having to look up rules and FAQs. From wondering if a BSB can still use his ability when declining a challenge (had to go to the FAQ in the end), to "Does thunderstomp, breath weapon work with Soul Feeder?" (still unclear after checking BRB and many FAQs).

In AOS, we have only 4 pages of rules and warscrolls laid out in front of us to look to.

One (8th) would take sometimes 20minutes to find the ruling.
The other (AOS) takes at most 5 minutes to look up a rule.

Also, in 8th edition, our movement phases would take many times longer than they do in AOS (again, for our gaming group. YMMV).

Now, we have yet to try a 20-30 warscroll game, ours so far have been scenarios from the books, with at most 9 warscrolls on each side in play.
I admit, this is no where near the size of some of the games we played in 8th (10K per side being the largest we ever played, and it took forever), but even the smaller games in 8th took us much longer to play due to the many,many pages of rules and FAQs we had to look through.

Charistoph
19-08-2015, 16:25
So we can all agree that the "game" and the "rules" for AoS aren't actually anywhere near complete enough to be usable.

I would argue the same could be said for Monopoly. They are complete enough to be usable, but not completely relied on to answer everything. AoS is just returning to a more deliberate sandbox affair than the more strict line set that Fantasy Battles was.

jet_palero
20-08-2015, 04:27
I, of course, can only speak for myself here, and let me preface with I loved 8th edition WHFB.

In 8th edition, we constantly found ourselves having to look up rules and FAQs. From wondering if a BSB can still use his ability when declining a challenge (had to go to the FAQ in the end), to "Does thunderstomp, breath weapon work with Soul Feeder?" (still unclear after checking BRB and many FAQs).

In AOS, we have only 4 pages of rules and warscrolls laid out in front of us to look to.

One (8th) would take sometimes 20minutes to find the ruling.
The other (AOS) takes at most 5 minutes to look up a rule.

Also, in 8th edition, our movement phases would take many times longer than they do in AOS (again, for our gaming group. YMMV).

Now, we have yet to try a 20-30 warscroll game, ours so far have been scenarios from the books, with at most 9 warscrolls on each side in play.
I admit, this is no where near the size of some of the games we played in 8th (10K per side being the largest we ever played, and it took forever), but even the smaller games in 8th took us much longer to play due to the many,many pages of rules and FAQs we had to look through.

My 8th edition armies generally had 4- 8 blocks, depending on the army. I don't see how that takes a long time to move, compared to having to move hundreds of individual troops. Are you counting "thinking" time or something?

I've always said WFB could benefit from use of chess clocks. If your opponent is taking too long, say something.

Choombatta
20-08-2015, 05:29
My 8th edition armies generally had 4- 8 blocks, depending on the army. I don't see how that takes a long time to move, compared to having to move hundreds of individual troops. Are you counting "thinking" time or something?

I've always said WFB could benefit from use of chess clocks. If your opponent is taking too long, say something.

First off, thinking time is still part of the movement phase. So yes, I would include that just as I would include the amount of time spent deciding which spell to cast and who on as part of the spell phase. Time is time.
I am not sure how moving models with square bases is faster than moving models with circle bases unless you are using movement trays (which could still be used by both).
Try moving a few horde units in 8th without a movement tray. In AOS, the biggest unit we have had is 20 models, whereas in 8th, we always had 1-3 horde units.
In addition, in AOS there is no additional measuring for things like wheeling. You just move the model where you want, within range, without all the additional measuring.

Of course, maybe our gaming group is just slower than everyone else, but it never affected our enjoyment. We enjoyed 8th edition and looked forward each week to continuing the game, This is why we have not given up on 8th edition, just play it in addition to AOS.

I just stated in my first post, we find it refreshing to be able to play a full game, and even multiple games in a single night, at our pace, which we could never seem to manage with 8th, YMMV.

Tarrell
20-08-2015, 07:20
Hordes on old CD cases as movement trays, now those were the days.
Movement never really took that long, I found the Magic phase, and attacking/ combat resolution and special abilities took the most time, next to game set-up and pack away.

Quiet Sage
28-08-2015, 16:06
Of course you'll only Summon a unit you can put on the table. The Warscroll of such unit gives that army's Wizard the Spell to Summon it.

Now let's look at what the rules say about Warscrolls and units:
1) "All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use." (Warscrolls, p.1)
2) "Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand." (Set Up, p.2).
3) Nowhere does it say that a Warscroll only counts if such a unit is in an army or held in a reserve.

From these then it follows that a unit doesn't need to be on the table for a Wizard to use that unit's Summon spell, i.e. to Summon other units like it.
Quite the contrary actually: if a unit gets wiped out, you can Summon it back as a new unit, it doesn't even need to be 'held in reserve' (Set Up, p.2) to be Summoned.
Now THAT is the true power of summoning: to get stuff back. Because any other unit wiped out is out of the game entirely.

Case Solved.

Daniel36
29-08-2015, 12:03
You're only doing it wrong if you are not enjoying yourself.
You're doing it right when you ARE enjoying yourself.

Case solved.

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 12:11
So if you are on the other end of the summoning and not enjoying it you are doing it wrong? But you're doing it right if you are enjoying doing the summoning? Surely some sort of standardised "this is how summoning works" would be better than judging on people's mood? What if you've just found out you left your cat photo on the bus and you aren't having fun, are you still doing summoning wrong???

I am of course just mocking the fact that as many people can take as many views as they want on right or wrong or degrees therefore of when the rules are so ambiguous that anything could be correct.

Spiney Norman
29-08-2015, 14:56
You're only doing it wrong if you are not enjoying yourself.
You're doing it right when you ARE enjoying yourself.

Case solved.
I'm not sure that is the case really

So if you are on the other end of the summoning and not enjoying it you are doing it wrong? But you're doing it right if you are enjoying doing the summoning? Surely some sort of standardised "this is how summoning works" would be better than judging on people's mood? What if you've just found out you left your cat photo on the bus and you aren't having fun, are you still doing summoning wrong???

I am of course just mocking the fact that as many people can take as many views as they want on right or wrong or degrees therefore of when the rules are so ambiguous that anything could be correct.

I think the hallmark of 'doing it right' is when both you and your opponent are enjoying themselves.

Personally the best interpretation of how summoning really should work can be found in the comp pack for the Clash of Swords event;

"No wizard may cast a summoning spell, any ability that brings on new units, such as Karanak's call of the hunt ability, may not be used. If a new unit is brought on as the result of a random roll on a table, such as the engine of the gods, that result is rerolled."

By Daniel's definition, that is my 'doing it right'

Quiet Sage
29-08-2015, 16:12
"... when the rules are so ambiguous that anything could be correct."

Trying to be helpful: where are the rules ambiguous about summoning?

I collected all rules about warscrolls and summoning and - as per my post - can't see any ambiguity: you must have a unit available (held in reserve or wherever) that can be summoned and a wizard that can summon it. That's it.

Your Sage

Dosiere
30-08-2015, 02:57
Wait, they straight up banned all forms of summoning/reinforcements in the tournament? A pretty hard line to take on such a new game system, but then again I hear it was successful.

Lordmonkey
30-08-2015, 12:19
We set one restriction, which was no summoning anything with the "HERO" keyword. There isn't much left after that that can't be reasonably dealt with.

Spiney Norman
30-08-2015, 15:20
Wait, they straight up banned all forms of summoning/reinforcements in the tournament? A pretty hard line to take on such a new game system, but then again I hear it was successful.

I suspect because the whole thing is such a mess, it works in a friendly-friendly casual game but when you are trying to create a balanced format for competitive play summoning is a massive problem, you just know someone is going to turn up with a case full of pink horrors and chain-summon them on the first turn.

In out of the box AoS summoning is less problematic because you could deploy all your summonable forces at the start of the games since there is not army-building limitations, if you're going to the trouble of designing and implementing a points-based comp pack then not limiting summoning in some form would make a mockery of the whole thing.

Thommy H
30-08-2015, 18:15
The simple fix is to count summoned units as part of the army list. You can only summon the units in your "collection" (that's RAW) so your army list should be everything you show up with, even if it's not going to be deployed. Summoned units are no different from the various units you can set aside and "say they're in hiding" or "say they're waiting in the Realm of Azyr" or whatever.

Gorthor21
31-08-2015, 00:17
The simple fix is to count summoned units as part of the army list. You can only summon the units in your "collection" (that's RAW) so your army list should be everything you show up with, even if it's not going to be deployed. Summoned units are no different from the various units you can set aside and "say they're in hiding" or "say they're waiting in the Realm of Azyr" or whatever.

this seems like the best solution I've heard. its simple and really only affects sudden death

Quiet Sage
31-08-2015, 10:55
To me the best solution is just to use the rules as they are written: summoning is only as decisive as its opponent lets it be, for example by leaving the wizard alone or ignoring the empty space needed for a unit to be summoned in.

Everytime the wizard summons a unit, (s)he isn't casting another spell and gives me more targets to kill to win ... what's wrong with that? And a necromancer resummoning lost units to me is perfectly inline with the fluff (oh, just remember that Game of Thrones scene where all those dead undead are resummoned in one grand gesture).

Cheers