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Presentdent
07-08-2015, 03:55
Hey! I'm new! I finally decided to join Warseer after years of visiting after I realized the miniatures for Warhammer Fantasy were being discontinued. It made me sad enough to seek fellow haters of Age of Sigmar and lovers of the Fantasy Fluff (as the books were what initially got me into this world before a GW store was near enough for me to buy models/play regularly). So, if I commit any forum faux pas, please let me know!

I noticed over on General Discussion that there are some unofficial 9th Edition rules being worked on by fans, but I was wondering if the body of lore-buff, fluff-loving Warseer residents had any interest in getting a workshop going for 9th Edition fluff: moving the plot forward in a way that doesn't involve a poorly written apocalypse followed by Sigmar creating Yggdrassil (essentially). I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).

If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?

Personally, I think incorporating parts of End Times would be useful. Not a big fan of the whole "incarnates" deal, but I can be convinced.

Edit: Big thanks to Razios for providing some quotes from Josh Reynolds about an Alternate Timeline in which Chaos fails. Going to post three of the most important links here, but all of the links are in Razios' post below:
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

TL: DR -
=Kislev obliterated, but Tzarina/IceQueen and loyalists remain in pockets of guerrilla resistance against Chaos
=Auric Bastion and most of the Empire (including Altdorf) get smoked. But outposts and fortresses throughout the battlescarred territory remain. Maybe some cities survive. It can recuperate.
=Bretonnia intact, but most of their knights and Louen died at Altdorf. Green Knight remains Myth-King for a newer, brighter, Francengland.
=Dwarfs are wounded but alive.
=Lizards relocate in their flying Pyramids to Nehekhara -- closer to the setting and revitalizing the region.
=Sylvania is now a force to be reckoned with and takes over as the Big Bad while Chaos recuperates
=Massive beastmen herds remain, roaming the Empire
=Skaven put on the backfoot after losing Pestilens. Managed to wipe out most of Tilea/Estalia/Araby, though
=Ulthuan sunk. Elves united under Malekith, but largely ****ed -- wars to reclaim Naggaroth. Tyrion becomes a roaming warrior trying to redeem himself
=Some Tomb Kings rebel against Nagash
=Orcs rumble back to the Badlands and remain Orcky (why change what's perfect?), some Ogres stick around; others don't.


To add to Reynold's points, I'd say don't have the cultures of Tilea, Estalia, and Araby get totally obliterated. Some hold outs survive against the Skaven onslaught, especially with the Skaven ultimately failing. But what I imagine would be interesting is expanding the strength of Bretonnia with an Errantry War into Estalia and Tilea, which can also fall nicely in line with some historical events in how the French came to dominante Basque (north/east) regions of Spain and Piedmont/Savoy (north-east region of Italy). Bretonnian noblemen going on crusade into the rat-infested warrens and declaring themselves the new kings/princes of ruined cities with Tilean and Estalian populations, much to the local's chagrin. I still prefer the idea of Nagash and Archaon taking each other out over the incarnates, but if people really don't like it, I can be convinced.

Below, I'll be cataloguing some of the ideas that have been pitched:


The Empire
218483


Sigmar's Empire is in shambles after Archaon's nearly successful conquest of the world. Ostland, Ostermark, Talabecland, and Hochland are blighted wastes, infested with beastmen and fouler things. Pockets of defenders persist in isolated forts and outposts, surviving by strength of arms and a healthy helping of luck. Altdorf, Jewel of the Empire, is a broken ruin and Talabheim Crater remains a lake of pus. Refugees from the flood westward into a shattered nation.

In the north, Heinrich Todbringer, bastard son of Boris, has been legitimized by Ar-Ulric in the wake of the late count's mad and fatal quest to kill Khazrak One-Eye. Theoderic Gausser, Elector-Count of Nordland, has finally achieved his dream of walking into Marienburg, but it is a plague-ridden ruin. With Volkmar and Valten both dead, the Church of Sigmar seemed aimless, if not for the arrival of Luthor Huss, a heavy scarf around his neck, come as the last bastion of Sigmar's grace. He is elected Grand Theogonist, as most of Sigmar's clergy died at the Battle of Altdorf. With him, temporarily reigning from Carroburg, is Luitpold II, Prince of Reikland and son to the late Karl Franz. In the south, Nuln survives under the deft hand of Emmanuele von Liebewitz, and begins to recover with the help of Stirland and the Moot. Balthasar Gelt, while persona non grata in much of the Empire, remains in Liebewitz' favor. While the sons of great men (Heinrich Todbringer and Luitpold II) try to put themselves forward as candidates for Emperor, Gelt wonders why the Empire needs yet another mortal, suspicious man in the first place, and plots to establish a magocracy. The Empire is on the path towards civil war, between Sigmarite Reikland, the "pagan" rulers of the North, and Balthasar Gelt.



Bretonnia:
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Unlike the Empire, Bretonnia's birthing pains into the new world after the Everchosen were not quite as painful. While hundreds of its knights and its king perished at the battle of Altdorf, and a civil war had rocked the country in the period immediately before the End Times, the realm is now ruled by the Green Knight, revealed as Gilles le Breton, legendary king of myth. The Skaven ultimately failed to destroy Bretonnia, though its southern provinces of Brionne and Carcassonne were overrun. Lileath's manipulations, revealed at Athel Loren, have been kept a secret from the populace by their new king. Better the famed knights of Bretonnia still have faith in the Lady. An Errantry War has been called, not only to burn out the rats from southern Bretonnia, but to reclaim Estalia and Tilea for humanity, as well. Many knights and lords will remain in their newly conquered, southern cities, establishing Bretonnian courts far from home and declaring independence outside of le Breton's sight, whether the surviving Tileans or Estalians like it or no.



Kislev:
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Kislev, the frozen north, has been overrun by the forces of Chaos. Though Throgg's vision for an army of intelligent trolls never came to pass, Kurgans, Norscans, and the mutated beasts of chaos pick through the country's ruined cities and even revel in the Tzarina's palace at Kislev City. Only a small force of Kislevites remains within their native country, loyal to the Ice Queen, fighting as a guerrilla army in the wilderness, refusing to give up the fight against Chaos.



Estalia:
218486


The unfortunate Estalians were largely wiped out by the Skaven hordes. The constant rivalries between their two greatest cities, Bilbali and Magritta, made for a weak state without an army to meet the ratkin. Most of their cities were overrun and their people butchered. Only Magritta, Pearl of the South, managed to hold strong. The Knights of the Blazing Sun and Myrmidia's Honor Guard held back the Skaven, collapsed their tunnels, and almost starved to death in their city, using all of the strategy and fortitude gifted to them by their vengeful goddess. When finally the siege broke and the Skaven retreated, Magritta was the last truly Estalian city standing. Since then, the Bretonnian Errantry War has carried northern knights into Estalia, and a Bretonnian lord fancies himself as Baron of Bilbali. Myrmidia's worship is ever more fervent, as the surviving Estalians see her as the only reason any of their countrymen yet live.



Tilea:
218487


The merchant-princes of Tilea were unprepared for the Skaven invasion. Positioned so close to Skavenblight, Tobaro was annihilated by warp-lightning and overrun by the chittering masses. The perfidious principality of Pavona was similarly overtaken, its rivalry with Trantio ended in a sudden flood of stinking rodents. Trantio, too, fell. Even its mighty, Dwarven gates no match for the Skaven. It was only in Remas that the Skaven finally bloodied their collective nose. For once, in the face of such calamity, the republic and triumvirs of Remas were united, and Ricco's ragged band was finally welcomed into the city. Ricco led the defense as temporary dictator of Remas, defeating wave after wave of Skaven. The ratmen, realizing Remas was a hard nut to crack, continued further south. Unfortunately, the serene republic of Verezzo was not so lucky. Possessing a strong defensive position and mighty bastions, the city's defenders are eventually undone by the Ratman's Plague. Luccini and Sartosa, however, proved to be the end of the Skaven venture in Tilea. Once bitter enemies made a pact of Alliance, and as the skaven tried to breach the Leopard City's walls, the cannons of the Sartosan fleet unloaded into the army, and the ratkin were driven into the hills. While Luccini and Remas remain free, much of Tilea is still inundated in ratman filth.



The Lizardmen:
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The Lizardmen did not flee the world in their temples. Rather, they only fled Lustria. Much to their chagrin, the Vampires, Orcs, and humans that had been squabbling over the Southlands, at times harassed by skinks, bore witness to the mighty, stone pyramids of the Lizardmen landing in the jungle, flattening trees and wildlife (and one unfortunate Orcish hunting party). From them spilled creatures that had not been seen in the Old World in an age: Sauri, Kroxigor, and even the surviving Slaan! The Lizardmen have found a new home in the jungles of the Southlands, joining the lonely Temple City of Zlatlan, and leaving cursed Lustria behind. They have set eyes northward, on Skaven-infested Araby and the sun-baked deserts of the Tomb Kings.




Vampire Counts:


Vlad and Isabella von Carstein did not perish with the End Times. The apocalypse averted, and the Vampire Lord now finds himself as the newly-minted Elector-Count of Sylvania. Vlad now joins the rush to become warden of a crumbling Empire, fighting for the title of Emperor he sought so long ago. He can only hope that none of the other Von Carsteins spoil his plans out of jealousy. Unfortunately, what might otherwise be a walk in the park is stymied by Balthasar Gelt, a new necromantic power operating in the south of the Empire. Nevermind the surviving threat of Arkhan the Black.

I'll add more for the Blood Dragons when a fan of the Blood Dragons gives me a suggestion! I know Abhorash survived.



Skaven:


Note: In the AU, the Skaven invasion was not nearly as successful and survivors remain in Tilea/Araby/Estalia.

Thanquol, unable to bear the sight of Screech Verminking and Archaon taking the glory for the end of the world; once more fulfilled his prophecy of doing more damage to his friends than his foes. It was ever the way of the Skaven to underestimate their underlings, and though Verminking sensed Thanquol's envy, he thought there was nothing to fear until it was too late. In a fit of petulant rage, Thanquol the Grey Prophet disintegrated the Verminlord after huffing what some clanrats suggested was a slave's weight in warpdust. Next, he jealously turned his eldritch power against the host of Chaos, blunting the southern prong of Archaon's invasion before retreating into the mountains with vengeful assassins of Clan Eshin on his tail. Some say he retreated all the way to the Mountains of Mourn. None of his slaves have thought to tell him this only brings him closer to the home of Clan Eshin.

Meanwhile, the Horned Rat smote Skavenblight with his mighty paw, condemning the Council of Thirteen for their failure to bring about the end of the world or control Thanquol. With Morrslieb's fall having killed much of Clan Pestilens, Skyre, Moulder, Eshin, and the Minor Clans are once again involved in civil war, scrabbling to the top of the ratman heap and debating where to place a new Council of Thirteen -- the plague-ridden depths of Karak Kadrin have never seemed so homey.



Proposed Point of Divergence:


One by one, the ancient hourglasses of Araby were shattered in the months leading up to what would come to be known as the End Times. Throughout Araby, the destruction of these magical engines was received with shock and terror, for long had they been relics of their culture. When the ratmen emerged to consume the world, they were the obvious culprits. The last Arabyan Hourglass was secreted away from the Spice Port aboard the Flaming Scimitar, flagship of the Golden Magus of Araby. As the last Arabyan cities fell, and the Skaven continued their rampage into the Empire, Clan Eshin and Clan Skyre assassins clambered aboard the Scimitar, intent on murdering the last of the great, Arabyan lords. As the ratmen clawed at the door of the sorcerer's treasure room, he unstopped his mystical urns. With the power of his enslaved djinni, the Golden Magus activated the last great hourglass of Araby. Time stopped. Gleaming, green eyes blinked through cracks in the mighty, oaken doors. An arc of warp-lightning had frozen, like a physical body, inches from the crystaline glass of the ancient artifact. And then... the world began turning back. Skaven threw themselves, backwards, off the sides of the ship, across the world, fighters pulled blades from their foes and armies marched away from each other. In Copher, the last of the defenders stood up once more, their wounds closing and their skaven killers retreating. And at Middenheim, the Herald of Sigmar stood, in climactic battle with the Everchosen. In the thousand universes the sorcerer's gambit created, Valten still fell, the Empire still died, and the world perished in violence and flame. But in one timeline, the Verminlord's glaive missed its mark and Ghal Maraz once again proved the bane of the Everchosen. The sailors of the Flaming Scimitar would later find their master dead, his urns empty, and the great hourglass glowing and hot to the touch, burning a hole through the floor of their ship. The Golden Magus and his ship were considered lost with all hands. In this timeline, the roll of the die had proved lucky and the world survived.



That's two factions and one culture. I could use help from Dwarf, Orc, Vampire, Elf experts for other ideas.

Map of the Old World, for anyone who needs a frame of reference: http://trueimages.ru/img/bb/9d/0d7d3699a349b21c579f12d9b7d.jpg

Greyshadow
07-08-2015, 04:47
Probably isn't in line with what you were thinking but there may still be a story to be told between the world gate collapse at the end of the End Times and the death of the Old World. Maybe it took 300 years for the collapse to engulf the world? The back page alluded it to being over between one day and a millenium. Maybe the initial collapse destroyed most of the Chaos legions giving time for the remnants of the End Times to regroup in new territories. Maybe ninth could live in the bleak post apocalyptic world? Maybe the story of Death, Destruction and Order attempting to avert or escape their fate and Chaos working to stop them.

Every city like Mordheim? Could be cool :D

AkatsukiLeader13
07-08-2015, 05:15
First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 05:37
First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't clear. While I think the events of Nagash (mostly) are a good stepping stone for a very bleak post-war period that could lead to a lot of creativity and pushing the fluff forward, I was not saying that Nagash himself should survive. I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?

Edit: I should note, something I prefer from Storm of Chaos is the manner of Valten's death. Far more tragic.

And, just to get the ball rolling on Post-End Times Fluff:

Estalia was suitably rocked by Skaven coming out of the ground all at once to attack every city, but Magritta holds out as one shining star amid the ravenous hordes, to which Estalians flock for safety. The soldiers of Myrmidia, her grand strategy and discipline beat into their skulls since birth, manage to hold out against the ratmen, even as a cataclysm begins to engulf the Old World. When the dust clears, Magritta is beaten and battered, but survives. The Goddess, Myrmidia, is haled as not only the savior of Magritta, but of all Estalia. Unfortunately, all is not sunshine and rainbows in Warhammer, and this results in a strict theocracy of the Goddess developing in Estalia, far more warlike and stern than her Lady of the Lake counterpart across the mountains. There's a first crack at it.

Greyshadow
07-08-2015, 10:37
I like it. :)

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 14:59
For the Empire -- maybe someone could debate me on how much End Times destruction they'd like to see, or how many characters they'd like to see dead (including Elector Counts). I was thinking that it would be interesting to keep the destruction of Altdorf, but retain certain cities like Nuln and Middenheim.

As for the Bretonnians, having them get squatted off-screen by Skaven just seems batshit. But the original war between Louen and Mordred caught my interest.

Razios
07-08-2015, 19:21
I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).

Probably...because they put themselve into a corner, I mean you cant advance the settting without coming with the damn apocalypse, its the event they have been bulding out from the first edition pretty much, the diferent between this and WH40K is that there a least have a working shot againts chaos, here? not so much, so ether chaos wins or you just disapoint everyone else.

Also GW built a complex but quite fragil status quo that can break in anytime: If malekith dies them the whole dark elves who to hell, but at the same time they cant win ulthuan or the high elfs are screw, skaven have wipeout most of the faction...but they never do because plot reasons and so one


I'd like to go back to Storm of Chaos as an example -- initially meant to be a chaos victory, Games Workshop's fan-input project bit them in the ass and they were forced to come up with ways to push the plot forward, after the End Times. Tragic events like Valten's assassination, despite his triumph at Middenheim, always stuck out to me as good ways to push forward, kill off heroes, and make room for new ones. If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?

Except the only kill the new chararter(and even that as nurgle and slaanesh champion end doing nothing) and many feel cheat it(not for nothing people call the "breeze of chaos" for how the status quo remains) as some rulebooks and novels show...nothing change THAT much thanks to storm of chaos.

Also Valten is dull as hell.



Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad

Indeed, it you dont take care of Nagash them he will be Sauron, just without the annoying hobbits


I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?

So...you will kill the biggest evils to the setting to continue? I dont want to be rude but have GW done that and nobody will forgive them about it, a least they bring him back for age of sigmar.

But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch

-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/125448377055
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128548082655
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128547887327
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128547229919
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128545029343
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128396370399
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128396432351
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128422746079
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128422891487
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128167084767
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127827703519
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127798237919
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127788804063
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127789056735
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127723024351
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

As you see he is been ask this...a lot actually, it make help you bulding your 9 edition

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 19:29
@Razios, you're a bit of a negative nancy! But thanks for all of the Ask-JoshReynolds posts. Very insightful. For the record, I agree that Valten is dull, but so long as he exists as Sigmar's reincarnation to some degree, the assassination after victory was far more poignant than random glaive attack.

As for killing the biggest evils -- yes. Why not? Kill Karl Franz too, while you're at it. Open the door to something new. You know, advance the setting? Games Workshop may have written themselves into a corner with the apocalypse, but the best way out of that corner (without destroying the setting) would be a last minute averting of said apocalypse. Which is what I'm looking for here.

Horus38
07-08-2015, 20:03
But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 20:05
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.

I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.

Horus38
07-08-2015, 20:16
I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.

I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191514

At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 20:19
I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191514

At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.

@Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.

Also, I'd like to note I've done a major edit on the first post. I'll be reproducing it here, in the latest post, for people coming back to check who don't notice the edit.

Edit: Big thanks to Razios for providing some quotes from Josh Reynolds about an Alternate Timeline in which Chaos fails. Going to post three of the most important links here, but all of the links are in Razios' post below:
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

TL:DR -
=Kislev obliterated, but Tzarina/IceQueen and loyalists remain in pockets of guerrilla resistance against Chaos
=Auric Bastion and most of the Empire (including Altdorf) get smoked. But outposts and fortresses throughout the battlescarred territory remain. Maybe some cities survive. It can recuperate.
=Bretonnia intact, but most of their knights and Louen died at Altdorf. Green Knight remains Myth-King for a newer, brighter, Francengland.
=Dwarfs are wounded but alive.
=Lizards relocate in their flying Pyramids to Nehekhara -- closer to the setting and revitalizing the region.
=Sylvania is now a force to be reckoned with and takes over as the Big Bad while Chaos recuperates
=Massive beastmen herds remain, roaming the Empire
=Skaven put on the backfoot after losing Pestilens. Managed to wipe out most of Tilea/Estalia/Araby, though
=Ulthuan sunk. Elves united under Malekith, but largely ****ed -- wars to reclaim Naggaroth. Tyrion becomes a roaming warrior trying to redeem himself
=Some Tomb Kings rebel against Nagash
=Orcs rumble back to the Badlands and remain Orcky (why change what's perfect?), some Ogres stick around; others don't.

To add to Reynold's points, I'd say don't have the cultures of Tilea, Estalia, and Araby get totally obliterated. Some hold outs survive against the Skaven onslaught, especially with the Skaven ultimately failing. But what I imagine would be interesting is expanding the strength of Bretonnia with an Errantry War into Estalia and Tilea, which can also fall nicely in line with some historical events in how the French came to dominante Basque (north/east) regions of Spain and Piedmont/Savoy (north-east region of Italy). Bretonnian noblemen going on crusade into the rat-infested warrens and declaring themselves the new kings/princes of ruined cities with Tilean and Estalian populations, much to the local's chagrin.

I still prefer the idea of Nagash and Archaon taking each other out over the incarnates, but if people really don't like it, I can be convinced.

Cèsar de Quart
07-08-2015, 20:26
Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...

Horus38
07-08-2015, 20:27
@Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.

*laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 20:46
*laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).

On that, we agree. The Nagash book was amazing. Even Glotkin was okay (though I could sense something was off). After that, it went completely off the rails.

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 20:51
Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...

Finally! Someone who agrees that Karl Franz should die! Yes! I am totally with you on the natural causes angle, actually, presaging yet another "War of the Three Emperors" period. Boris Todbringer would still be around -- and the most natural successor, as he was Franz's only real rival during the election. As for Raukov, I agree he's badass, but if we are accepting parts of End Times, Ostland got absolutely obliterated. If we were to see him alive, he wouldn't have an army to push him claim. Totally agree on everything else you said on the Empire. Regarding Bretonnia -- why? Isn't Gilles firmly in control as the God-King?

But a trifecta of Todbringer(and the wolf-lovers) vs. Volkmar vs. Balthasar Gelt? I could definitely see it. And it makes Sylvania even greater of a threat, as there's not only a weakened empire, but an empire in civil war, without a Magnus the Pious yet to save it.

On Archaon, he's got to die and the Chaos Gods need to look for another Everchosen and lick their wounds. But how would you have him die in our Alternate Universe?

Lars Porsenna
07-08-2015, 21:50
I think the things to do to push the fluff forward in an non-AoS way is 2 things:

1. Make some big and meaningful changes while at the same time...

2. avoiding faction death.

There are a few ways to do it, like the aformentioned succession war within the Empire, or even the Empire dismembered. One could also have Chaos actually successful in the scenario, mostly overrunning the Eastern province (which I cannot remember exactly...Ostland I'm guessing?) with perhaps a rump state left to avoid (sub)faction death and give those players a narrative reason to fight their battles. Similarly, after Estallia has fallen to the Skaven, large offensives are launched into both Bretonnia (with major areas conquered) and Tilea (perhaps that goes a bit worse for the Skaven), giving Bret players a new narrative reason for fighting battles.

But the important thing is that after these events, the old status quo should not be re-established; rather a new status quo established that is different from before.

Just IMHO.

Damon.

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 22:24
Just another update to the first post. Added some works-in-progress for The Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev. Let me know what you think!

Presentdent
07-08-2015, 23:00
A friend suggested going back to WFB's roots and introducing some Herohammer and "friendly" (as much as violent vikings can) Norscans to ally with the Empire, and Werebear heroes/special units.

Like, some not-so-Chaos-worshiping Norscans move into the empty (albeit beast-infested) areas in the eastern part of the Empire. Hack down and **** up Beastmen left and right. And Empire refugees trying to reclaim their homes run into these northerners who have migrated into their old towns and farmlands.

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 03:03
Update on the Norscan idea has been developed a little more. A warrior along the lines of Beowulf, who makes himself known by defeating some mighty chaos beast and saving/freeing/reclaiming a city in the east. Theoderic Gausser or Valmir von Raukov "appoint" him Elector-Count of one of the eastern provinces in hopes of giving themselves another ally in the form of a Norscan warlord at the head of a mighty, northern band. One suggestion was that the warlord turned from his Chaotic masters after seeing Archaon fall at the hands of Valten. The point being that he wasn't a Chosen, but a Norscan that was part of the marauding horde, following Archaon because he was the biggest, baddest warrior around, and once Archaon was put down by Valten, looking all Barbarian-God King with Ghal Maraz, he and his men have pledged himself to a near-Sigmarite cult venerating Valten and abandoning the Chaos Gods who failed to claim the realms of men.

The Norscan returns to his home in the north to spread tale of the Man who defeated the Chosen of the Gods; someone truly worthy of reverence, and leads a migration of local townships willing to abandon their homes and the gods to carve out a home in Ostland. Landing near Salkalten, the survivors of Ostland have retreated to ruined city that was once the northern jewel of the eastern province, but are unwilling to treat with the Norscans, their ancestral enemies. Our Beowulf-Warlord, with his own Hrunting (Beowulf's runesword -- possibly a runefang taken from one of the fallen Elector-Counts of the End Times?), goes off to prove his worth by hunting a mighty Chaos Troll or Dragon Ogre that arrived in the wake of Archaon's invasion but never left (our very own Grendel). Upon returning with the creature's head, he earns the keep of himself and his people, and becomes leader of Salkalten's garrison, eventually carving out his own Earldom in Ostland, to later be noticed by one of the western, Imperial Elector-Counts.

Could be that Gausser or Raukov is appointing local warlords in all of the "abandoned provinces," in looking for allies. Maybe a Kislevite boyar in Ostermark, and a halfling from the Moot in Stirland.

Kotrag
08-08-2015, 10:53
Update from /tg/. The Norscan idea has been developed a little more. A warrior along the lines of Beowulf, who makes himself known by defeating some mighty chaos beast and saving/freeing/reclaiming a city in the east. Theoderic Gausser or Valmir von Raukov "appoint" him Elector-Count of one of the eastern provinces in hopes of giving themselves another ally in the form of a Norscan warlord at the head of a mighty, northern band. One suggestion was that the warlord turned from his Chaotic masters after seeing Archaon fall at the hands of Valten. The point being that he wasn't a Chosen, but a Norscan that was part of the marauding horde, following Archaon because he was the biggest, baddest warrior around, and once Archaon was put down by Valten, looking all Barbarian-God King with Ghal Maraz, he and his men have pledged himself to a near-Sigmarite cult venerating Valten and abandoning the Chaos Gods who failed to claim the realms of men.

The Norscan returns to his home in the north to spread tale of the Man who defeated the Chosen of the Gods; someone truly worthy of reverence, and leads a migration of local townships willing to abandon their homes and the gods to carve out a home in Ostland. Landing near Salkalten, the survivors of Ostland have retreated to ruined city that was once the northern jewel of the eastern province, but are unwilling to treat with the Norscans, their ancestral enemies. Our Beowulf-Warlord, with his own Hrunting (Beowulf's runesword -- possibly a runefang taken from one of the fallen Elector-Counts of the End Times?), goes off to prove his worth by hunting a mighty Chaos Troll or Dragon Ogre that arrived in the wake of Archaon's invasion but never left (our very own Grendel). Upon returning with the creature's head, he earns the keep of himself and his people, and becomes leader of Salkalten's garrison, eventually carving out his own Earldom in Ostland, to later be noticed by one of the western, Imperial Elector-Counts.

Could be that Gausser or Raukov is appointing local warlords in all of the "abandoned provinces," in looking for allies. Maybe a Kislevite boyar in Ostermark, and a halfling from the Moot in Stirland.

An awful idea. I will have no part in any 9th edition where this travesty is canon.

Makiwara
08-08-2015, 13:41
That's two factions and one culture. I could use help from Dwarf, Orc, Vampire, Elf experts for other ideas.

Map of the Old World, for anyone who needs a frame of reference: http://trueimages.ru/img/bb/9d/0d7d3699a349b21c579f12d9b7d.jpg

By no means an expert, but if I were to imagine an AU post End Times elf timeline, it would go as follows.

Malekith and Alarielle hold separate courts in Athel Loren in the old fashion of Ulthuan with most of the surviving remnants of the elves. However, Malekith makes claim over much of the old lands of Elthin Arvan that he first settled before the Sundering and is preparing to wage war to secure those cities and arable lands for elvenkind, bringing elves into conflict with Bretonnia as elves force humans from their farms and homes. His court contains much of the more pro-war elven elite class from the Druchii and Asur factions. Imrik is seen as the heir to Malekith, but true to Caledorian fashion broods in his keep in the Grey Mountains above Athel Loren while dragons soar overhead. Meanwhile Tyrion and Teclis have gone into exile and are slowly attempting to gather together those Asur in far flung places to form an army to depose the Eternity King; Asarnil and Aenur join their cause.

An expedition is launched, against the orders of King and Queen, by opportunistic elves, perhaps Lokhir Fellheart and his band among them, to retake Naggaroth, the force is harried by Chaos forces all the way to Har Ganeth where they find a solitary Druchii lord slumbering in a lake of blood within the Temple of Khaine; the Warpsword clutched to his chest and loyal Cold One by his side. He is proclaimed the Scourge of Khaine and King of Druchii.

Meanwhile among the former Asrai a prophet of Loec, and son of Naieth, travels with his troupe of wardancers proclaiming dire times and the threat of Chaos returning.
The Wild Hunt grows restless and beneath the roots of the Oak of Ages the forgotten King of the Woods stirs again from his slumber.

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 15:42
An awful idea. I will have no part in any 9th edition where this travesty is canon.


Thats why this is a workshop and I haven't added it to the main post yet. Lol.

however, a less involved version of Theoderic Gausser elevating local warlords to try and establish his claim on the Empire -- what do you say to that?

and @Makiwara, that's great! Finally someone with elven knowledge, though I wonder why Teclis would want to depose Malekith, given that he schemed to get him there. I would think Teclis would just retire from the world while Tyrion becomes a wandering Dog of War, trying to redeem himself for his actions during the End Times

AkatsukiLeader13
08-08-2015, 15:49
By no means an expert, but if I were to imagine an AU post End Times elf timeline, it would go as follows.

Malekith and Alarielle hold separate courts in Athel Loren in the old fashion of Ulthuan with most of the surviving remnants of the elves. However, Malekith makes claim over much of the old lands of Elthin Arvan that he first settled before the Sundering and is preparing to wage war to secure those cities and arable lands for elvenkind, bringing elves into conflict with Bretonnia as elves force humans from their farms and homes. His court contains much of the more pro-war elven elite class from the Druchii and Asur factions. Imrik is seen as the heir to Malekith, but true to Caledorian fashion broods in his keep in the Grey Mountains above Athel Loren while dragons soar overhead. Meanwhile Tyrion and Teclis have gone into exile and are slowly attempting to gather together those Asur in far flung places to form an army to depose the Eternity King; Asarnil and Aenur join their cause.

An expedition is launched, against the orders of King and Queen, by opportunistic elves, perhaps Lokhir Fellheart and his band among them, to retake Naggaroth, the force is harried by Chaos forces all the way to Har Ganeth where they find a solitary Druchii lord slumbering in a lake of blood within the Temple of Khaine; the Warpsword clutched to his chest and loyal Cold One by his side. He is proclaimed the Scourge of Khaine and King of Druchii.

Meanwhile among the former Asrai a prophet of Loec, and son of Naieth, travels with his troupe of wardancers proclaiming dire times and the threat of Chaos returning.
The Wild Hunt grows restless and beneath the roots of the Oak of Ages the forgotten King of the Woods stirs again from his slumber.

Honestly I disagree with the Tyrion and Teclis part, everything else is fine. Teclis put Malekith on the Throne and helped kept him there. He knows that while Malekith isn't necessarily the King people want, he's the King chosen by Asuryan. And he's seen, and helped, Malekith slowly change. He's seen him reluctently learn to compromise and to rule with more than just fear, threats, intimidation and violence. Hell he even exiled Helleborn and her murderous cult of ******** once their excesses on the battlefield were becoming too much.

Plus both King and Queen have the last portion of Asuryan's and Isha's power within them respectively. Plus Lileath, the last of the Elf Pantheon who also wed them, recrowned Malekith the Eternity King, decreeing that he would 'rule alongside his Everqueen for all the turnings of the world yet to come.' Even if its total BS, that public decree from the last Elf Goddess is going to make many reluctant to take up arms against either Elf royal.

It doesn't really make sense for Teclis to pull this 180 and want Malekith gone, especially since it was him who pull Malekith on the throne and it would sunder their race again after becoming united for the first time in six thousand years.

To me there's only really two options for what Teclis would do after those events:

A) He remains within the Elf Courts, aiding in keeping his people together and keeping Malekith from falling into old habits, which as Archaon and the end of Khaine revealed isn't going to happen. Malekith has changed too much to become the ruthless tyrant he was. He's still an unpleasant ******* of course. Some things never change.

B) Josh Reynold's thoughts on the matter, with Teclis and his brother wandering the world leading whatever aid they can to the forces against Chaos and Nagash.

With Tyrion, he's got too much guilt with his actions during Khaine to stay with his people, much less plot against Malekith. Whether with Teclis or alone, he's going to wander the world, trying to atone for all the pain and suffering he caused.

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 16:29
Honestly I disagree with the Tyrion and Teclis part, everything else is fine. Teclis put Malekith on the Throne and helped kept him there. He knows that while Malekith isn't necessarily the King people want, he's the King chosen by Asuryan. And he's seen, and helped, Malekith slowly change. He's seen him reluctently learn to compromise and to rule with more than just fear, threats, intimidation and violence. Hell he even exiled Helleborn and her murderous cult of ******** once their excesses on the battlefield were becoming too much.

Plus both King and Queen have the last portion of Asuryan's and Isha's power within them respectively. Plus Lileath, the last of the Elf Pantheon who also wed them, recrowned Malekith the Eternity King, decreeing that he would 'rule alongside his Everqueen for all the turnings of the world yet to come.' Even if its total BS, that public decree from the last Elf Goddess is going to make many reluctant to take up arms against either Elf royal.

It doesn't really make sense for Teclis to pull this 180 and want Malekith gone, especially since it was him who pull Malekith on the throne and it would sunder their race again after becoming united for the first time in six thousand years.

To me there's only really two options for what Teclis would do after those events:

A) He remains within the Elf Courts, aiding in keeping his people together and keeping Malekith from falling into old habits, which as Archaon and the end of Khaine revealed isn't going to happen. Malekith has changed too much to become the ruthless tyrant he was. He's still an unpleasant ******* of course. Some things never change.

B) Josh Reynold's thoughts on the matter, with Teclis and his brother wandering the world leading whatever aid they can to the forces against Chaos and Nagash.

With Tyrion, he's got too much guilt with his actions during Khaine to stay with his people, much less plot against Malekith. Whether with Teclis or alone, he's going to wander the world, trying to atone for all the pain and suffering he caused.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

One person suggested the elves trying to reclaim some of their old colonies -- but I don't know whether their populations have been too depleted to even leave Athel Loren, or if they'd go back to Naggaroth.

In addition -- I'd still like some input on the Norscan warlord getting converted to a psuedo Sigmarite, along the lines of Rollo, the viking who established Normandy, and being put in power in Ostland by Theoderic Gausser trying to shore up his claim on the throne.

Kotrag
08-08-2015, 17:13
Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Over on /tg/, one person suggested the elves trying to reclaim some of their old colonies -- but I don't know whether their populations have been too depleted to even leave Athel Loren, or if they'd go back to Naggaroth.

In addition -- I'd still like some input on the Norscan warlord getting converted to a psuedo Sigmarite, along the lines of Rollo, the viking who established Normandy, and being put in power in Ostland by Theoderic Gausser trying to shore up his claim on the throne.

If you want to use Hrolfr Gangr as an example, he was essentially bribed with land and titles in order to dissuade him from launching any more attacks against the Franks. He had attempted to sack Paris in 885 AD in concert with two other warlords.

Any Norscan who gains lands in the Empire would most likely do so as a conqueror - perhaps of the northern provinces where Imperial control is likely shattered. I had an idea where the Norse would try to reclaim their old dominions of Nordland as a side-effect of being in the vanguard of Archaon's assault, thus establishing the Earldom of Nordland.

I also doubt that any Elector Count would be quick to grant any Northmen lands in their provinces. Considering, you know, that the Norse tribes are principally the guys who wrecked them in the first place.

Also, no Norscan would ever, and I mean EVER, convert to the worship of southern gods. The most salient aspect of their characterisation is that the Norse think that the southern gods are weaklings compared to the Dark gods. And that the Norscans are so fanatical because they are constantly reminded of their gods' existence and power due to their living in the North. Factor in that most Norscans despise Sigmar for his part in driving them to Norsca in the first place, and well...

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 17:28
If you want to use Hrolfr Gangr as an example, he was essentially bribed with land and titles in order to dissuade him from launching any more attacks against the Franks. He had attempted to sack Paris in 885 AD in concert with two other warlords.

Any Norscan who gains lands in the Empire would most likely do so as a conqueror - perhaps of the northern provinces where Imperial control is likely shattered. I had an idea where the Norse would try to reclaim their old dominions of Nordland as a side-effect of being in the vanguard of Archaon's assault, thus establishing the Earldom of Nordland.

I also doubt that any Elector Count would be quick to grant any Northmen lands in their provinces. Considering, you know, that the Norse tribes are principally the guys who wrecked them in the first place.

Also, no Norscan would ever, and I mean EVER, convert to the worship of southern gods. The most salient aspect of their characterisation is that the Norse think that the southern gods are weaklings compared to the Dark gods. And that the Norscans are so fanatical because they are constantly reminded of their gods' existence and power due to their living in the North. Factor in that most Norscans despise Sigmar for his part in driving them to Norsca in the first place, and well...

I like it, but the Chaos Invasion came from the east, through the Auric Bastion, as opposed to from the North. Western Nordland would still be very much intact. While I prefer "Nordland" for a Norse warlord's earldom, northern Ostland actually fits a bit more, given Ostland/Ostermark's annihilation. And thanks for coming back and being a bit more civil.

Regarding the Elector-Count status, I think it would be similar to Rollo, but rather than trying to buy him off from further attack, Theoderic is looking for any allies to help him become Emperor and so is even willing to give a Norscan status. After all, he's dealing with the Sigmarite Church, Balthasar Gelt, possibly Valmir von Raukov (if I figure a nice way to include him) and Vlad von Carstein.

Regarding the gods... Well, Norscans think their Dark Gods are stronger, but if a Norscan were to witness the champion of his gods get thrown down by the champion of the southern god, Sigmar, I think that is reason enough to reconsider his position, as it seems clear the Southern God was the stronger. Nevermind the fact that Valten looked like a Barbarian Warrior-King anyway.

Kotrag
08-08-2015, 17:54
I like it, but the Chaos Invasion came from the east, through the Auric Bastion, as opposed to from the North. Western Nordland would still be very much intact. While I prefer "Nordland" for a Norse warlord's earldom, northern Ostland actually fits a bit more, given Ostland/Ostermark's annihilation. And thanks for coming back and being a bit more civil.

Regarding the Elector-Count status, I think it would be similar to Rollo, but rather than trying to buy him off from further attack, Theoderic is looking for any allies to help him become Emperor and so is even willing to give a Norscan status. After all, he's dealing with the Sigmarite Church, Balthasar Gelt, possibly Valmir von Raukov (if I figure a nice way to include him) and Vlad von Carstein.

Regarding the gods... Well, Norscans think their Dark Gods are stronger, but if a Norscan were to witness the champion of his gods get thrown down by the champion of the southern god, Sigmar, I think that is reason enough to reconsider his position, as it seems clear the Southern God was the stronger. Nevermind the fact that Valten looked like a Barbarian Warrior-King anyway.

Technically, the initial Chaos invasion (before the Glottkin and Archaon, who were basically Norscan raider fleets) came from the northeast. Not the east. If it came from the east, they would have marched out of Blackfire Pass. In any case, the Norscans once controlled the entirety of Nordland as well as northerly parts of Ostland and Middenland, so any of the three could work as an earldom.

Theodoric would catch a massive amount of flak from his own people if he ever gave a Norscan rights to Nordland, seeing as how his province is almost always the first to suffer under northern steel. Not to mention it would also undermine his position before his rivals, giving them more ammunition to bear against him. No longer would he simply be "the Count who controls less than half of his own province", but also "the Count who collaborates with the Empire's greatest enemies". It would just be counterproductive to any powerplay he would attempt. Unless of course Theodoric decides to convert to Chaos worship, thus turning his province into a Chaos Northymbre from which the Norse could strike out against the rest of the Empire's Was Seaxe. Alternately, he gives lands to the Norse and mostly doesn't care what they do for a religion, so long as they help him get the Imperial throne. Sorta of a live-and-let die sort of thing; note that this doesn't necessarily eliminate the Chaos Northymbre idea anyway. Of course, he still has to deal with flak from his own people and the church of Ulric and Sigmar, for where von Carstein's involvement in Imperial affairs could be explained away as being for the greater good, Theodoric working with Norscans would simply be down to his powerhungry desire for the title of Emperor.

Not really. The Norscans, much like IRL Vikings, have as much an acute obsession with their own deaths as they do with inflicting death others. None of them see dying in battle as a failure, if anything it's a victory of another sort as they feed the gods with their death and are permitted to their halls due to dying as true and mighty warriors. No Norscan is going to lose respect for Archaon if he dies in battle to Valten, they're more likely going to hail him as even more of a hero, seeing as how the Dark gods are said to favour those who fight the hopeless fight.

Also, Valten doesn't look like a barbarian king. Norse kings look like Archaon - he's clad in a plate of armour that belongs to Morkar - a Norsii Everchosen and wields a sword enchanted with the spirit of a favoured servant of the Norse god of war. Valten is clad in armour and wielding a weapon crafted by southerly Dwarfs and is mounted on an horse bred in far away Ulthuan. Who do you think Norsemen are more likely to identify with? Nevermind that Archaon is ethnically Norse anyway. He's half-Norse. His father was a Varg, while his mother was a fisherman's wife from Nordland. Though the latter doesn't really change anything, as Norsemen only seem to care who your father was, like every other worthwhile culture in the world ever.

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 18:21
Technically, the initial Chaos invasion (before the Glottkin and Archaon, who were basically Norscan raider fleets) came from the northeast. Not the east. If it came from the east, they would have marched out of Blackfire Pass. In any case, the Norscans once controlled the entirety of Nordland as well as northerly parts of Ostland and Middenland, so any of the three could work as an earldom.

Theodoric would catch a massive amount of flak from his own people if he ever gave a Norscan rights to Nordland, seeing as how his province is almost always the first to suffer under northern steel. Not to mention it would also undermine his position before his rivals, giving them more ammunition to bear against him. No longer would he simply be "the Count who controls less than half of his own province", but also "the Count who collaborates with the Empire's greatest enemies". It would just be counterproductive to any powerplay he would attempt. Unless of course Theodoric decides to convert to Chaos worship, thus turning his province into a Chaos Northymbre from which the Norse could strike out against the rest of the Empire's Was Seaxe. Alternately, he gives lands to the Norse and mostly doesn't care what they do for a religion, so long as they help him get the Imperial throne. Sorta of a live-and-let die sort of thing; note that this doesn't necessarily eliminate the Chaos Northymbre idea anyway. Of course, he still has to deal with flak from his own people and the church of Ulric and Sigmar, for where von Carstein's involvement in Imperial affairs could be explained away as being for the greater good, Theodoric working with Norscans would simply be down to his powerhungry desire for the title of Emperor.

Not really. The Norscans, much like IRL Vikings, have as much an acute obsession with their own deaths as they do with inflicting death others. None of them see dying in battle as a failure, if anything it's a victory of another sort as they feed the gods with their death and are permitted to their halls due to dying as true and mighty warriors. No Norscan is going to lose respect for Archaon if he dies in battle to Valten, they're more likely going to hail him as even more of a hero, seeing as how the Dark gods are said to favour those who fight the hopeless fight.

Also, Valten doesn't look like a barbarian king. Norse kings look like Archaon - he's clad in a plate of armour that belongs to Morkar - a Norsii Everchosen and wields a sword enchanted with the spirit of a favoured servant of the Norse god of war. Valten is clad in armour and wielding a weapon crafted by southerly Dwarfs and is mounted on an horse bred in far away Ulthuan. Who do you think Norsemen are more likely to identify with? Nevermind that Archaon is ethnically Norse anyway. He's half-Norse. His father was a Varg, while his mother was a fisherman's wife from Nordland.

Ill have to respectfully disagree. The Norse are also obsessed with great deeds. And while I can agree that most Norwcans wouldn't be convinced, I think you're being a bit didactic by saying none would be impressed with Valten/Sigmar. As for Theodoric, that would be the point. He's no longer worrying about a proper election (after all, almost half of of the elector provinces are gone and their counts dead). He's just looking for support -- armed support for a civil war with Balthasar Gelt and Vlad von Carstein. Theodoric is power hungry, has absorbed Middenland after Todbringer's death and is looking for anyone to support his claim -- a Norscans carving out land in the defunct eastern half of the empire?

and unless I'm mistaken, earlier warhammer editions had friendly/neutral Norscans like the Werebears, no?

Kotrag
08-08-2015, 18:49
Ill have to respectfully disagree. The Norse are also obsessed with great deeds. And while I can agree that most Norwcans wouldn't be convinced, I think you're being a bit didactic by saying none would be impressed with Valten/Sigmar. As for Theodoric, that would be the point. He's no longer worrying about a proper election (after all, almost half of of the elector provinces are gone and their counts dead). He's just looking for support -- armed support for a civil war with Balthasar Gelt and Vlad von Carstein. Theodoric is power hungry, has absorbed Middenland after Todbringer's death and is looking for anyone to support his claim -- a Norscans carving out land in the defunct eastern half of the empire?

Archaon dying in battle against a worthy foe would also be a great deed. One no less greater than Valten's triumph. So while impressive, it likely wouldn't be so great as to convince them to abandon their ancestral gods. At best, you could maybe expect them to incorporate Sigmar into their pantheon of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh in some twisted way. But even that's a long shot - they're much more likely to merely begrudgingly acknowledge that maybe Sigmar's a god, and that maybe he's more powerful than most southern deities.

That's really the point I'm trying to make that Theodoric can't really maintain popular support or control over the provinces if he decides to go so far as to make Norsemen his Dukes. He'd already be fighting an uphill battle maintaining control over the provinces of Middenland and Ostland, as neither are likely going to prefer Theodoric over their own nobility, whatever his military power. Middelanders are grotesquely proud of their Teutognen bloodlines, and have ever held that over the Nordlanders who, alone of the Empire, cannot boast descent from any of the founding tribes. You think any Middenlander will ever accept some half-breed dog of mixed Was Jutone and Norse heritage like Gaussar as lord over men of pure Teutognen blood? And then, if he's shown to be working with heathen Norsemen from across the seas, well, I doubt Theodoric would ever hear the end of rebellion in Middenland alone.

Then, factor in how many of his own people would likely take umbrage with Norscans ruling their lands? Yeah, in fell swoop he'd split his own province down the middle. None of this is a question of playing by the rules or seeking a proper election - joining forces with Norsemen like this would cause more trouble than it would solve unless he agreed not to question them on matters of religion.

Think about what kind of support this Beowulf of ours would have amongst the Norse. At best, maybe he gets a few families of followers. Most Norsemen would see him as a heretic, hell, even his own tribe might disown him for his ideas. What amount of followers would he realistically have? Maybe enough to carve a new village somewhere in the south, but enough to prove as a decisive factor in a major political struggle? Not really. Unless of course, we decide to ditch the Normandy idea and go for a Northymbre instead.


and unless I'm mistaken, earlier warhammer editions had friendly/neutral Norscans like the Werebears, no?

You mean the Bearmen of Urslo? The guys whose battlecry was "the Dark Gods bless us"? Nope. As I recall, even in the Regiments of Renown book they still ended up as part of Archaon's invasion.

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 19:29
Archaon dying in battle against a worthy foe would also be a great deed. One no less greater than Valten's triumph. So while impressive, it likely wouldn't be so great as to convince them to abandon their ancestral gods. At best, you could maybe expect them to incorporate Sigmar into their pantheon of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh in some twisted way. But even that's a long shot - they're much more likely to merely begrudgingly acknowledge that maybe Sigmar's a god, and that maybe he's more powerful than most southern deities.

That's really the point I'm trying to make that Theodoric can't really maintain popular support or control over the provinces if he decides to go so far as to make Norsemen his Dukes. He'd already be fighting an uphill battle maintaining control over the provinces of Middenland and Ostland, as neither are likely going to prefer Theodoric over their own nobility, whatever his military power. Middelanders are grotesquely proud of their Teutognen bloodlines, and have ever held that over the Nordlanders who, alone of the Empire, cannot boast descent from any of the founding tribes. You think any Middenlander will ever accept some half-breed dog of mixed Was Jutone and Norse heritage like Gaussar as lord over men of pure Teutognen blood? And then, if he's shown to be working with heathen Norsemen from across the seas, well, I doubt Theodoric would ever hear the end of rebellion in Middenland alone.

Then, factor in how many of his own people would likely take umbrage with Norscans ruling their lands? Yeah, in fell swoop he'd split his own province down the middle. None of this is a question of playing by the rules or seeking a proper election - joining forces with Norsemen like this would cause more trouble than it would solve unless he agreed not to question them on matters of religion.

Think about what kind of support this Beowulf of ours would have amongst the Norse. At best, maybe he gets a few families of followers. Most Norsemen would see him as a heretic, hell, even his own tribe might disown him for his ideas. What amount of followers would he realistically have? Maybe enough to carve a new village somewhere in the south, but enough to prove as a decisive factor in a major political struggle? Not really. Unless of course, we decide to ditch the Normandy idea and go for a Northymbre instead.



You mean the Bearmen of Urslo? The guys whose battlecry was "the Dark Gods bless us"? Nope. As I recall, even in the Regiments of Renown book they still ended up as part of Archaon's invasion.

Thank you! I was iffy on the bear men. Now, when it comes to Middenland -- Todbringer's dead and I'm pretty sure his sons are too. My idea for Gausser taking control is a combination of his ambition and the fact that he's the nearest lord with an army (given that Reikland is capoot too if Karl Franz is dead). His control is meant to be tenuous and unpopular. He's a bit of a pompous ass. The Middenlandera aren't meant to like him, but I understand if you think allying with a Norscan would be a bridge too far. I'd like to do something interesting with the eastern provinces -- hence a small group of Norsemen that have abandoned the chaos gods and join up with what few survivors there are in the east, but it doesn't have to be by Gausser's say so. It's just that many people expressed a desire for some changing up in the Empire, fluff-wise (perhaps an excuse to run friendly marauders as greatswords) and the Norscan idea is what came up.

sidenote: Valmir von Raukov, alone among the eastern Elector-Counts, isn't killed off or missing by the end of End Times, and he's a bamf. Any ideas for him? Ostland is surely blasted to **** but it's something to think about. He could move into the vacuum of Reikland or Averland or even Middenland.

Back to the Norscan -- is there any way you could see it working? I really don't think a single warlord and loyal parts of his war and being swayed by Valten's heroics is too far-fetched. And that's enough to start carving out an earldom in a power vacuum when the rest of the empire is a rump state mired in civil war.

Kotrag
08-08-2015, 20:09
Back to the Norscan -- is there any way you could see it working? I really don't think a single warlord and loyal parts of his war and being swayed by Valten's heroics is too far-fetched. And that's enough to start carving out an earldom in a power vacuum when the rest of the empire is a rump state mired in civil war.

Make the Norscans settle the northeastern Empire independent of any Electors, drop the whole "we converted away from our gods to worship Sigmar" and let them keep their Chaos worship. It doesn't have to result in them constantly attacking the rest of the Empire, because Archaon is dead and the gods have dropped the whole apocalypse thing for the moment. Their only objective now is to build their new earldom, or perhaps series of earldoms.

As the Empire is currently in the midst of a new Age of the Three Emperors with Theodoric Gaussar's overtures to power, he clandestinely seeks out Norscan aid. Outwardly, he initiates a non-aggression pact with the Earldoms, rationalising it to his people by telling them that must focus first on "reuniting" the Empire. He nonetheless secretly points Norscan warbands towards his adversaries, exploiting their talent as warriors and paying for their services by allowing them to carry off whatever loot they plunder from their raids.

Of course, Theodoric doesn't intend to allow the Norsemen to squat in his rightful lands forever. Once Karl Franz and his undead allies are dealt with, he will set his gaze upon the barbarians and destroy them.

Of course, the Norsemen realise Theodoric's motives and play the game in such a way to prolong the Imperial civil war, only providing enough indirect aid to Theodoric to weaken Karl Franz, but also to keep the entire thing indecisive. As a result, Theodoric and Karl Franz are locked in eternal war, sapping each others' strength. While all the while, more Norscan warbands begin sailing down from the North, and the Norse keep building their strength until they have the numbers to sweep down upon the Empire entirely, destroy both Theodoric and Karl Franz, and establish a continent spanning Norscan Empire for the glory of Chaos.

That's just a rough idea, anyway.

Captain Marius
08-08-2015, 20:50
I think the last mention of Von Raukov in the end times narrative was he was holding Erengrad, the westernmost point of the Auric Bastion. Maybe he is still holding the city and offering succour to the guerrilla Kislevites still fighting for the Ice Queen?

I find this What If scenario fascinating, however i think it need to firmly establish what is actually considered to have happened in the End Times before the new world order cam be established.

Personally I love the Avengers/Incarnates, so i'd probably have everything happen up to the point where Mannfred screws everything up, maybe Tyrion stops him at the last second and the Incarnates close the Rift, then they lay the smackdown on the remaining Chaos forces at Middenheim? Or maybe when Sigmar returns at the Fall of Altdorf, instead of nuking all the baddies he unleashes the first host of the Sigmarines with similar effect, and goes on to mitigate some of the more... final... events of Thanquol and Archaon?

Personally I'd like to see where Grimgor and Skarsnik would fit if they truly were the Once and Future Gits that Wurrzag foresaw!

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 20:51
Make the Norscans settle the northeastern Empire independent of any Electors, drop the whole "we converted away from our gods to worship Sigmar" and let them keep their Chaos worship. It doesn't have to result in them constantly attacking the rest of the Empire, because Archaon is dead and the gods have dropped the whole apocalypse thing for the moment. Their only objective now is to build their new earldom, or perhaps series of earldoms.

As the Empire is currently in the midst of a new Age of the Three Emperors with Theodoric Gaussar's overtures to power, he clandestinely seeks out Norscan aid. Outwardly, he initiates a non-aggression pact with the Earldoms, rationalising it to his people by telling them that must focus first on "reuniting" the Empire. He nonetheless secretly points Norscan warbands towards his adversaries, exploiting their talent as warriors and paying for their services by allowing them to carry off whatever loot they plunder from their raids.

Of course, Theodoric doesn't intend to allow the Norsemen to squat in his rightful lands forever. Once Karl Franz and his undead allies are dealt with, he will set his gaze upon the barbarians and destroy them.

Of course, the Norsemen realise Theodoric's motives and play the game in such a way to prolong the Imperial civil war, only providing enough indirect aid to Theodoric to weaken Karl Franz, but also to keep the entire thing indecisive. As a result, Theodoric and Karl Franz are locked in eternal war, sapping each others' strength. While all the while, more Norscan warbands begin sailing down from the North, and the Norse keep building their strength until they have the numbers to sweep down upon the Empire entirely, destroy both Theodoric and Karl Franz, and establish a continent spanning Norscan Empire for the glory of Chaos.

That's just a rough idea, anyway.

I assume you meant Vlad every time you said Karl Franz. In this Age of the Three Emperors, there is also the manipulative Balthasar Gelt, who thinks the whole reason everyone's in the mess that they are is they've let local warlords (Elector-Counts) run things for too long, and wants to establish a magocracy of his own.

Regarding the Norse Empire from the glory of chaos, the general feeling I've gotten is 1. People are tired of Chaos constantly being so in your face and would prefer a more... subtle dread, as chaos tries to recuperate for a couple hundred years after losing their greatest Everchosen, with the principal chaos threat being represented by Beastmen and their Chosen Warrior leaders, as in early Warhammer. 2. People want the world to be ruined for a while, and for the north-eastern parts of the Empire to remain fairly dead and ruined and overrun by Beastmen/Chaos, other than small pockets of resistance similar to Felix's Band in Slayer. A resurgent Norse Empire in the eastern half goes against that. 3. People want to see another side to Norscans. There's this desire from multiple folks I talked to for at least a few, neutral Norscans -- hence the idea that was proposed of a Beowulf/Rollo character who abandons his Dark Gods and through charisma leads a small group of Norscans to settle in the ruined parts of the Empire, away from Norsca Proper, where they'd be considered heretics who abandoned their own heritage.

And again, the side note. What to do with Elector-Counts who didn't get mentioned? Valmir von Raukov of Ostland (though his county got nuked), Alberich of Stirland, Emmanuelle von Liebewitz (likely died at Nuln, but I'd like to change that). And who takes over in Reikland?

Paviel
08-08-2015, 21:06
The problem with Ulthuan sinking/eroding is that the Vortex in the center of the continent is supposedly the only thing preventing Chaos from swamping the world.

So if everything except the Isle of the Dead is sunk, what's guarding the Vortex?

If the Isle of the Dead is sunk too, and the Vortex is no longer sucking magic out of the world, what is?

If nothing is sucking magic out of the world, what's stopping Chaos from mutating the world beyond recognition Age-of-Sigmar style?

Presentdent
08-08-2015, 21:28
The problem with Ulthuan sinking/eroding is that the Vortex in the center of the continent is supposedly the only thing preventing Chaos from swamping the world.

So if everything except the Isle of the Dead is sunk, what's guarding the Vortex?

If the Isle of the Dead is sunk too, and the Vortex is no longer sucking magic out of the world, what is?

If nothing is sucking magic out of the world, what's stopping Chaos from mutating the world beyond recognition Age-of-Sigmar style?

One idea put forth was that the reason Archaon is ultimately defeated (and to get rid of the Incarnates' power, as it kinda screws up the post End Times status quo) was that there is a last ditch effort to create a new vortex, rather than just teaming up, Avengers Style, to fight at Middenheim, Teclis and Co. create a new Vortex elsewhere and succeed, but depower (or kill?) themselves in the process. And this ultimately allows Archaon to falter, for Valten to win, and for the Skaven's gambit to chitter all over the world to ultimately come to naught. Valten still dies in the end, though, to wrap up his narrative nicely. And Grimgor also being there (but dying) is a nice call-back to SoC and wraps up the Once And Future Git story (as Reynolds called it).

AkatsukiLeader13
08-08-2015, 23:30
Well if Karl Franz dies he does have an heir, at least for Reikland and Altdorf, his son Luitpold II as well as an unnamed daughter. If he survived the events he would inherit the family titles over Reikland and likely Altdorf as well. Whether or not he would be elected Emperor is a whole other story.

Of course looking at the Electors and the End Times, its not good for them. Marius Leitdorf died before the End Times and his succession was never sorted out and Talabecland's was missing if I remember correctly.. Todbringer, Hertwig and Ludenhof all died over the course of the End Times. Todbringer because of his stupidity and his long-standing grudge, Hertwig when the Auric Bastion was breached and Ludenhof at the hands of Gelt. Volkmar the Grim, an Elector in his own right, was sacrificed to resurrect Nagash. The Ar-Ulric would have died during the fall of Middenheim and likely the same with the Arch Lectors in Talabheim and Nuln when they fell.

Emmanuelle von Liebewitz may have actually died off-screen early on in the End Times. In the opening of the Return of Nagash novel Gods-Damn Mannfredis scrying various locations throughout the world to see what is happening. One of the scenes is von Liebewitz getting attacked by the crazed rioters and flagellants in Nuln. We don't see what happens to her but its clear they're trying to kill her.

That leaves the Moot and the Counts of Nordland, Ostland and Stirland unaccounted for. If we spare Nuln that leaves us with potentially six Electors alive, possibly seven if Luitpold or his sister survived. Also a likely very unwelcome Vlad von Carstein if he survives.

As for Karl Franz, Valten and Sigmar... well its a very murky area. Karl Franz died in Glottkin, what rose in his place wasn't Karl Franz, at least not entirely. With the Storm of Chaos, I always felt that Karl Franz should have died and Valten lived, resulting in a succession crisis between Valten, Todbringer and Luitpold II, with no end to it in sight.

But in the End Times with the return of Sigmar in Karl Franz body, a succession crisis is kind of moot point if he's alive as he's Sigmar. So that's not viable if Sigmar's around.

However the sheer rebuilding of the world after all that provides plenty of material without everything being a crisis.

Cèsar de Quart
08-08-2015, 23:33
Finally! Someone who agrees that Karl Franz should die! Yes! I am totally with you on the natural causes angle, actually, presaging yet another "War of the Three Emperors" period. Boris Todbringer would still be around -- and the most natural successor, as he was Franz's only real rival during the election. As for Raukov, I agree he's badass, but if we are accepting parts of End Times, Ostland got absolutely obliterated. If we were to see him alive, he wouldn't have an army to push him claim. Totally agree on everything else you said on the Empire. Regarding Bretonnia -- why? Isn't Gilles firmly in control as the God-King?

Yes, but Gilles is kind of boring. Isn't he? Although it would help make Bretonnia a more central army to the setting, if it managed to stay united and focus itself against the Norscan and Skaven threat.


But a trifecta of Todbringer(and the wolf-lovers) vs. Volkmar vs. Balthasar Gelt? I could definitely see it. And it makes Sylvania even greater of a threat, as there's not only a weakened empire, but an empire in civil war, without a Magnus the Pious yet to save it.

Yes. It can also help make Valten a more interesting character, and a more interesting future Karl Franz.


On Archaon, he's got to die and the Chaos Gods need to look for another Everchosen and lick their wounds. But how would you have him die in our Alternate Universe?

Have him die of hubris. Not killed in battle, not defeated by foe or friend, have him try and go against the Gods of Chaos. When he sees Sigmar in the flesh he realises Sigmar was not a lie (which would make Archaon a bit stupid, since he must have seen Sigmar priests working miracles and invoking battle prayers), he realises he's been cheated. He would then try and bring on some scheme to sever the connection between the Gods of Chaos and the World (with help from Be'lakor? It suits his slimy personality, and of course he'd want to become the sole God of Chaos himself), only to recieve the visit of Kairos Fateweaver, who'd tell him that he would end the world (one head would say this) and that the Gods would end him (the other head speaking). I like to think that Archaon would end up caught in Tzeentch's illusions and trapped inside a maze of his own mind. It would also be a good way to set things right with Kairos and the way GW managed his very underwhelming demise at the hands of Archaon.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 00:00
Well if Karl Franz dies he does have an heir, at least for Reikland and Altdorf, his son Luitpold II as well as an unnamed daughter. If he survived the events he would inherit the family titles over Reikland and likely Altdorf as well. Whether or not he would be elected Emperor is a whole other story.

Of course looking at the Electors and the End Times, its not good for them. Marius Leitdorf died before the End Times and his succession was never sorted out and Talabecland's was missing if I remember correctly.. Todbringer, Hertwig and Ludenhof all died over the course of the End Times. Todbringer because of his stupidity and his long-standing grudge, Hertwig when the Auric Bastion was breached and Ludenhof at the hands of Gelt. Volkmar the Grim, an Elector in his own right, was sacrificed to resurrect Nagash. The Ar-Ulric would have died during the fall of Middenheim and likely the same with the Arch Lectors in Talabheim and Nuln when they fell.

Emmanuelle von Liebewitz may have actually died off-screen early on in the End Times. In the opening of the Return of Nagash novel Gods-Damn Mannfredis scrying various locations throughout the world to see what is happening. One of the scenes is von Liebewitz getting attacked by the crazed rioters and flagellants in Nuln. We don't see what happens to her but its clear they're trying to kill her.

That leaves the Moot and the Counts of Nordland, Ostland and Stirland unaccounted for. If we spare Nuln that leaves us with potentially six Electors alive, possibly seven if Luitpold or his sister survived. Also a likely very unwelcome Vlad von Carstein if he survives.

As for Karl Franz, Valten and Sigmar... well its a very murky area. Karl Franz died in Glottkin, what rose in his place wasn't Karl Franz, at least not entirely. With the Storm of Chaos, I always felt that Karl Franz should have died and Valten lived, resulting in a succession crisis between Valten, Todbringer and Luitpold II, with no end to it in sight.

But in the End Times with the return of Sigmar in Karl Franz body, a succession crisis is kind of moot point if he's alive as he's Sigmar. So that's not viable if Sigmar's around.

However the sheer rebuilding of the world after all that provides plenty of material without everything being a crisis.

What I'm thinking for End Times is:

Keep Battle of Altdorf and Pussing of Talabheim. Scrap the destruction of Middenheim/Nuln, but Todbringer still dies on his insane quest. Luthor Huss doesn't get merced all of a sudden, so he can become Grand Theogonist in Volkmar's absence. Eastern half of the Empire (Ostland, Ostermark, Hochland, Talabecland) are a smoldering ruin after the invasion. Totally forgot about Luitpold II, so thanks for that. Luitpold II would become the new Elector-Count of Reikland assuming he survives. Regarding Karl Franz, I was thinking that after the End Times are averted, Sigmar is no longer needed, and his spirit leaves Karl Franz, who quickly wastes away and dies, leaving the Empire in conflict. Perhaps not exactly the most far-seeing decision of God-Sigmar, but he's saved the world and can let the Empire go through some birthing pains as it comes into the new world.

So, that would leave Luitpold II fighting for his position as Emperor (possibly with a surviving Valmir von Raukov as a general), but without the bargaining chip that is Altdorf. But maybe he gets support from the surviving church of Sigmar and Luthor Huss. Theoderic Gausser, the ambitious Elector-Count of Nordland stakes his claim over the Drakwald and starts absorbing Middenland (what with Todbringer dead and the Nordland army likely gathered at Middenheim anyway), "until a new Elector-Count can be placed in his stead." Gausser's also putting his hat in the ring for Emperor, and gobbling up territory as he does. Vlad von Carstein is reviving his bid for Emperor, further legitimized by his elevation to Elector-Count, and flexing his muscle near Stirland, but still dealing with the other, rebellious, Vampiric families. And finally there's Balthasar Gelt, trying to finaggle a way to dissolve the imperial system into a magocracy without these flawed, power-hungry fools constantly trying to take control.

Thus giving us a nice place for fluff to develop in this War of the Three Emperors, impacted by the invasion of Archaon.

I'm open to ideas, however, about how to divide the elector-counts, what to do with them, what they should be doing in this new setting...


@Cesar de Quart,

Gilles may be boring, but it's something new and he didn't even get killed off before the end of End Times, so he's here to stay, for the moment, and also allows for an expansionist Bretonnia into Estalia and Tilea.

Regarding Archaon, I like the idea, but there's also something poetic about Valten, Archaon, and Grimgor all taking each other out -- a nice callback to Storm of Chaos, but also because the battle between Valten and Archaon was epic until the Skaven kill-steal.


@Captain Marius,

If you're fascinated by this opportunity, welcome aboard! Happy to have help! And I totally missed that about Raukov. Great idea. With Ostland destroyed, he might just remain in Kislev, fighting a running guerrilla battle, the stubborn bastard he is. As for the Incarnates, one of the ideas being tossed around was that a second Vortex is opened to replace that which was destroyed at Ulthuan (after all, the world would be swamped by chaos, otherwise). But this magical vortex also depowers the Incarnates, thus wrapping that up nicely, as the Warhammer Avengers aren't exactly gritty enough for the post End Times status-quo.


@Kotrag,

Reading the Lexicanum entry for Norscans, it seems that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books actually left a ton of room for friendly Norscans, mainly because Marienburg had been trying so hard to establish Norse trade routes, and it includes that some of the southern tribes actually deal honestly and fairly with their Imperial/Southern neighbors and only raid for survival. They are far more focused on adventure and acts of daring that slaughter and murder. In addition, they actually worship from of the Imperial pantheon, like Ulric, in addition to the Dark Gods. However, refusing to join a Chaos incursion was usually grounds for annihilation. So, it could be that our Not-Beowulf witnesses Archaon's fall at the hands of Valten (and Grimgor), returns to his town in Norsca with tales of wonder at the southern god's power. Neighboring tribes grow antsy, so he and his retainers flee, migrating to the emptier parts of the Empire in the east, worshiping a less Chaotic pantheon and establishing a toe-hold in northern Ostland, fighting off Beastmen.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 00:30
Oh, one thing I did forget is that Emmanuelle von Liebewitz was old friends with Karl Franz and actually became Elector Countess with Karl Franz's aid. So if Nuln and the Countess survive it is quite possible that she would back Luitpold II.

Though if both Valten and Karl Franz are gone, with no Sigmar around, the Cult of Sigmar would most likely support him as he is the son of Karl Franz, an Emperor visibly blessed by Sigmar.

Actually, quick question about Middenheim, what's Ulric's status? After all Teclis did seal the Flame of Ulric, depowering the God and effectively killing him, with the last bits of his power going into two men who both get killed by Archaon, completely finishing off the God.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 00:44
Oh, one thing I did forget is that Emmanuelle von Liebewitz was old friends with Karl Franz and actually became Elector Countess with Karl Franz's aid. So if Nuln and the Countess survive it is quite possible that she would back Luitpold II.

Though if both Valten and Karl Franz are gone, with no Sigmar around, the Cult of Sigmar would most likely support him as he is the son of Karl Franz, an Emperor visibly blessed by Sigmar.

Actually, quick question about Middenheim, what's Ulric's status? After all Teclis did seal the Flame of Ulric, depowering the God and effectively killing him, with the last bits of his power going into two men who both get killed by Archaon, completely finishing off the God.

Teclis stealing the Flame of Ulric is what precipitates Middenheim's fall, and as I think an Empire without Middenheim gets a little sad, I was essentially thinking to myself "Teclis doesn't steal the flame. Figure out later." Any ideas on your end? As this version of the End Times doesn't involve the Middenheim ritual and instead involves creating a new, magical vortex (maybe under Albion?), could that figure in? I forget, what is the flame of Ulric stolen for in the first place? One of Teclis' silly plots.

Paviel
09-08-2015, 00:44
One idea put forth was that the reason Archaon is ultimately defeated (and to get rid of the Incarnates' power, as it kinda screws up the post End Times status quo) was that there is a last ditch effort to create a new vortex, rather than just teaming up, Avengers Style, to fight at Middenheim, Teclis and Co. create a new Vortex elsewhere and succeed, but depower (or kill?) themselves in the process. And this ultimately allows Archaon to falter, for Valten to win, and for the Skaven's gambit to chitter all over the world to ultimately come to naught. Valten still dies in the end, though, to wrap up his narrative nicely. And Grimgor also being there (but dying) is a nice call-back to SoC and wraps up the Once And Future Git story (as Reynolds called it).

But who could have created a new Vortex, and how, and where?

Keep in mind that the only reason why the Vortex in Ulthuan works so well is because of standing stones all over the world directing the Winds of Magic towards it, so at the very least those stones would have had to be "rerouted" to the location of a new Vortex.

Cèsar de Quart
09-08-2015, 00:50
So... Emperor Vlad vs Sigmar? That would be fun.

But my idea is more than anything to scrap the End Times alltogether, except for the good parts: the Sundering of Ulthuan and Malekith as Eternal King, the fall of half of the Empire (poor Ostland, their uniforms colors were awesome), to make the stakes go up (and to make Mordheim's scope of play more extended!), and also the resurrection of Nagash was a neat concept, as well as having Vlad re-instated as Elector Count, I loved that part. They didn't do much with it, but it was cool.

I'd be in favour of killing off most of the important guys save from Gelt, Todbringer, Schwartzhelm and Helborg. The first two, becauser they can lead different Empire factions with their own personalities. The last two, because they've been a dynamic duo of bro force old sods for almost 20 years now. And how nice are their moustaches!

This is what I've imagined. Yes, I've got too much free time.

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/guillemroura444/Warhammer%209th%20Ed%20fluff_zps5orxuwsw.png~origi nal (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/guillemroura444/media/Warhammer%209th%20Ed%20fluff_zps5orxuwsw.png.html)

You've got a very martial-oriented, totalitarian Todbringer, Ulrican empire; a very religiously crazed Empire officially under Liutpold but really under Volkmar (after all, these were really almost the End Times!) and a steampunk / Gold Magic Empire led from Nuln and Averheim with a specially strong devotion to machinery (and magical machinery!). Which means, of course, clockwork golems. Wouldn't you buy them minis? I would!

Granted, this is very Empire-centric. But I am an old Empire player. I can't help it.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 01:10
So... Emperor Vlad vs Sigmar? That would be fun.

But my idea is more than anything to scrap the End Times alltogether, except for the good parts: the Sundering of Ulthuan and Malekith as Eternal King, the fall of half of the Empire (poor Ostland, their uniforms colors were awesome), to make the stakes go up (and to make Mordheim's scope of play more extended!), and also the resurrection of Nagash was a neat concept, as well as having Vlad re-instated as Elector Count, I loved that part. They didn't do much with it, but it was cool.

I'd be in favour of killing off most of the important guys save from Gelt, Todbringer, Schwartzhelm and Helborg. The first two, becauser they can lead different Empire factions with their own personalities. The last two, because they've been a dynamic duo of bro force old sods for almost 20 years now. And how nice are their moustaches!

This is what I've imagined. Yes, I've got too much free time.

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/guillemroura444/Warhammer%209th%20Ed%20fluff_zps5orxuwsw.png~origi nal (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/guillemroura444/media/Warhammer%209th%20Ed%20fluff_zps5orxuwsw.png.html)

You've got a very martial-oriented, totalitarian Todbringer, Ulrican empire; a very religiously crazed Empire officially under Liutpold but really under Volkmar (after all, these were really almost the End Times!) and a steampunk / Gold Magic Empire led from Nuln and Averheim with a specially strong devotion to machinery (and magical machinery!). Which means, of course, clockwork golems. Wouldn't you buy them minis? I would!

Granted, this is very Empire-centric. But I am an old Empire player. I can't help it.

Cesar, I love that you've put the work in to create a map. And I'm generally on board with just keeping the "good parts" of End Times. Let me argue with a few of your points, though.

-Volkmar: If you want to keep Nagash's resurrection around, remember that Volkmar gets sacrificed as part of the ritual. So, instead of Volkmar remaining the Grand Theogonist, how about Luthor Huss (as the only remaining Sigmarite of any renown, after Altdorf's destruction) getting elected as the new Grand Theogonist and leading an even more radical Sigmarite cult into the new age? Also, clears out an old character like Volkmar who's been screwed around with since Storm of Chaos.

-Todbringer: Todbringer's death, while not honorable, as poetic. Karl Franz's only rival at the time of his election; the only man that could have led the Empire into a new age... and he throws it all away for the insane grudge he's held against Kharak One-Eye, finally overcoming the beast, only to be killed by all the Beastmen around him in his crowning moment of Victory. Instead of Todbringer leading the North, I'd go for Theoderic Gausser, the Count of Nordland (as I've said throughout this thread). The man is ambitious (still calls himself the Prince of Marienburg, despite their promises to execute him, and had clashed with Todbringer over claims to the Drakwald), rides a Griffon (Emperor-style), and has been humiliated (one of his footnotes is that his wife had an affair with the captain of the Nordland Seahawks Bloodbowl team). I could see him gleefully celebrating Marienburg's demise after defying him for so long, and plotting to take the ruins (possibly as a new Capital of the Empire), while positioning his forces in Middenheim/absorbing Middenland, now that Todbringer's dead -- though the church of Ulric isn't entirely happy with him, he's at least not supported by the church of Sigmar, like Luitpold.

Schwartzhelm: C'mon. He got a bad-ass mutual-kill against the *********** Herald of Khorne, Valkia the Bloody. As fine a way for a man to go out.

Kurt Helborg: I can't imagine he'd ever leave Karl Franz's side, so his death is also fitting, but I can be convinced here.

Otherwise, I love it all, especially your notes for Gelt, though I could imagine Emanuelle's loyalties being divided and tentatively supporting Luitpold, as well. Clockwork Golems sounds fantastic, especially with Gelt's plotting (who could be playing Vlad and the other Empire factions against each other, that scheming necromancer).


@Paviel:

I understand your concerns, which is why I've come here. I was hoping someone could help me hash that out. I was thinking Albion (conveniently removing a place that GW never bothered to flesh out, anyway) becomes the next Vortex, as it was also a location of one of the mighty runestones. Given that we're saving the Lizards in this situation, they could also lend their help, and it could also be a reason for Teclis and the Incarnates' disappearance from the setting, if they destroys themselves in the act of summoning another Vortex, bringing all the winds of magic together.

Horus38
09-08-2015, 01:19
Some points I'll raise regarding Lizardmen (the only faction really near and dear to my heart) in relation to the snippet you posted-

* Although it hasn't been expanded on in several editions the temple city of Zlatlan is still in the Southlands and has one of the few surviving 2nd generation slann in residence. All lizardmen units are already in place there so more temple cities arriving is not something new - they already have a power base established.
* The only "resources" lizardmen actually need are their spawning pools. Their cities are pretty much self-sustaining given the slann's mastery of magic and technology on their ships/cities. They would not be focused on expanding territory, but re-interpreting or continuing on with the Great Plan (see next point).
*A somewhat obscure fact is that the Southlands Slann actually have a more intact sequence of golden plaques recording the Great Plan then their Lustrian counterparts. It would be interesting to see what the rest of the Slann would do with this newly acquired knowledge.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 01:31
Teclis stealing the Flame of Ulric is what precipitates Middenheim's fall, and as I think an Empire without Middenheim gets a little sad, I was essentially thinking to myself "Teclis doesn't steal the flame. Figure out later." Any ideas on your end? As this version of the End Times doesn't involve the Middenheim ritual and instead involves creating a new, magical vortex (maybe under Albion?), could that figure in? I forget, what is the flame of Ulric stolen for in the first place? One of Teclis' silly plots.

The resurrection of Tyrion so he could become the Incarnate of Light. Of course the fall of Middenheim did lead to discovery of the magic mcguffin that Teclis and the Incarnates were planning on using to save the world but failed because Gods-Damn Mannfred killed Gelt, disrupting the ritual and killing Teclis.

So if Teclis doesn't steal the Flame, no Tyrion, Incarnate of Light. No Tyrion period.

Though its worth noting, even with the Flame and Ulric, Middenheim was doomed. It was just a matter of time before Archaon conquered it. At best, they would have delayed Archaon long enough for Sigmar to rally the Empire's surviving forces and reach out to their allies so they could ride to the rescue. But that's the extremely hopeful, highly unlikely possibility.

It's also worth noting that as Teclis was stealing the Flame, Archaon was enacting a plan to crack open the gatehouses and get into the city. And if I remember correctly, in Storm of Chaos Archaon did breach the city while Ulric's Flame still burned. In the End Times he had the skaven with him, aiding in the plan to breach the city. Hell the sheer numbers Archaon had with him guaranteed that he would have taken the city eventually and extinguished the Flame.


But who could have created a new Vortex, and how, and where?

Keep in mind that the only reason why the Vortex in Ulthuan works so well is because of standing stones all over the world directing the Winds of Magic towards it, so at the very least those stones would have had to be "rerouted" to the location of a new Vortex.

And of course they had Caledor Dragontamer and the best Elf sorcerers of the age as well as aid from the Slann whom were far more numerous at that time.

So yeah, a new Vortex couldn't easily created elsewhere.

Plus the Vortex would only dampen the Daemons and weaken their magics. It would do nothing to the mortal followers of Chaos. It was so effective back then because at the time the forces of Chaos were all daemons.

Also it would me that the Incarnates would have to give up their power, costing them their greatest weapons when they needed them the most.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 01:47
Some points I'll raise regarding Lizardmen (the only faction really near and dear to my heart) in relation to the snippet you posted-

* Although it hasn't been expanded on in several editions the temple city of Zlatlan is still in the Southlands and has one of the few surviving 2nd generation slann in residence. All lizardmen units are already in place there so more temple cities arriving is not something new - they already have a power base established.
* The only "resources" lizardmen actually need are their spawning pools. Their cities are pretty much self-sustaining given the slann's mastery of magic and technology on their ships/cities. They would not be focused on expanding territory, but re-interpreting or continuing on with the Great Plan (see next point).
*A somewhat obscure fact is that the Southlands Slann actually have a more intact sequence of golden plaques recording the Great Plan then their Lustrian counterparts. It would be interesting to see what the rest of the Slann would do with this newly acquired knowledge.

Thanks. I was looking for something like this. What would a 'more intact' version of the Great Plan look like?


@Akatsuki, well then. What do you suggest? I mean, we're in open territory here. We could say that the Flame was stolen, yet Middenheim managed to hold out, or we could come up with some way for another magical vortex, or any number of solutions. If you've got one, I'm all ears! This is a sticky problem, after all.

And regarding the mortal followers of Chaos, if Valten were to kill Archaon and blunt the nose of the Chaos invasion, followed by a vortex to sap its demonic power, and with Grimgor's Waaaagh! coming up its ass... I think that's enough to put an end to the invasion and see the Chaos Warlords bicker and scatter to the four winds.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 02:02
The resurrection of Tyrion so he could become the Incarnate of Light. Of course the fall of Middenheim did lead to discovery of the magic mcguffin that Teclis and the Incarnates were planning on using to save the world but failed because Gods-Damn Mannfred killed Gelt, disrupting the ritual and killing Teclis.

So if Teclis doesn't steal the Flame, no Tyrion, Incarnate of Light. No Tyrion period.

Though its worth noting, even with the Flame and Ulric, Middenheim was doomed. It was just a matter of time before Archaon conquered it. At best, they would have delayed Archaon long enough for Sigmar to rally the Empire's surviving forces and reach out to their allies so they could ride to the rescue. But that's the extremely hopeful, highly unlikely possibility.

It's also worth noting that as Teclis was stealing the Flame, Archaon was enacting a plan to crack open the gatehouses and get into the city. And if I remember correctly, in Storm of Chaos Archaon did breach the city while Ulric's Flame still burned. In the End Times he had the skaven with him, aiding in the plan to breach the city. Hell the sheer numbers Archaon had with him guaranteed that he would have taken the city eventually and extinguished the Flame.



And of course they had Caledor Dragontamer and the best Elf sorcerers of the age as well as aid from the Slann whom were far more numerous at that time.

So yeah, a new Vortex couldn't easily created elsewhere.

Plus the Vortex would only dampen the Daemons and weaken their magics. It would do nothing to the mortal followers of Chaos. It was so effective back then because at the time the forces of Chaos were all daemons.

Also it would me that the Incarnates would have to give up their power, costing them their greatest weapons when they needed them the most.


Hmmm. I wish I had an End Times timeline in front of me. Valten dies at the siege of Middenheim, right? Not when the Incarnates go to take it back. I was going to say that we could let Middenheim fall and then Teclis/The Incarnates' gamble succeeds, without ****** Mannfred, and it's later reclaimed by the Empire, but we lose the epic confrontation/duel between Valten and Archaon sans Skaven killsteal.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 03:15
Hmmm. I wish I had an End Times timeline in front of me. Valten dies at the siege of Middenheim, right? Not when the Incarnates go to take it back. I was going to say that we could let Middenheim fall and then Teclis/The Incarnates' gamble succeeds, without ****** Mannfred, and it's later reclaimed by the Empire, but we lose the epic confrontation/duel between Valten and Archaon sans Skaven killsteal.

Yeah Valten died during the fall of Middenheim in Thanquol. Teclis's Gamble was the last act of the final book, by which Valten was long dead. In fact for a time Archaon had Ghal Maraz as a trophy until Karl Franz/Sigmar retook it, completely restoring Sigmar's spirit, a piece of which had gone into Valten, Sigmar's Avatar and then Ghal Maraz upon his death.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 03:51
Yeah Valten died during the fall of Middenheim in Thanquol. Teclis's Gamble was the last act of the final book, by which Valten was long dead. In fact for a time Archaon had Ghal Maraz as a trophy until Karl Franz/Sigmar retook it, completely restoring Sigmar's spirit, a piece of which had gone into Valten, Sigmar's Avatar and then Ghal Maraz upon his death.

Thanks for clearing that up. Anyway, let's get the creative juices flowing -- how do you think we can cut our Gordian Knot of how to resolve End Times and be rid of the Incarnates in post-end times?

Horus38
09-08-2015, 04:05
Thanks. I was looking for something like this. What would a 'more intact' version of the Great Plan look like?

No problem. The Great Plan lists future events that should/will come to pass so it's hard to speculate on what the sequence would look like.

Prior to the End Times this was the only foreshadowing we had of the Lizardmen's intentions: "Lord Mazdamundi announced that he had deciphered the meaning of the plaques found on the Turtle Isles, saying they were composed mere days before the Great Catastrophe and their message was incontrovertible. They stated the Great Plan could not proceed until all the corupting elements that were sure to be introduced by the looming disaster were eliminated. Foremost amongst these would be the followers of Chaos. All such creatures, the plaques claimed, must be expunged and, as Lord Mazdamundi pointed out, anything less would be a failure of their duties to the Old Ones. The true power of Chaos was stirring in the world once more, and the Lizardmen must rise to meet it. Those younger races that would not join them against the common foe must be considered enemies. A time of vast battles, Lord Mazdamundi pronounced, was at hand." - p. 20 8th edition LM army book

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 04:14
No problem. The Great Plan lists future events that should/will come to pass so it's hard to speculate on what the sequence would look like.

Prior to the End Times this was the only foreshadowing we had of the Lizardmen's intentions: "Lord Mazdamundi announced that he had deciphered the meaning of the plaques found on the Turtle Isles, saying they were composed mere days before the Great Catastrophe and their message was incontrovertible. They stated the Great Plan could not proceed until all the corupting elements that were sure to be introduced by the looming disaster were eliminated. Foremost amongst these would be the followers of Chaos. All such creatures, the plaques claimed, must be expunged and, as Lord Mazdamundi pointed out, anything less would be a failure of their duties to the Old Ones. The true power of Chaos was stirring in the world once more, and the Lizardmen must rise to meet it. Those younger races that would not join them against the common foe must be considered enemies. A time of vast battles, Lord Mazdamundi pronounced, was at hand." - p. 20 8th edition LM army book

So, landing in the Southlands/Nehekhara, the Lizards just plan to continue fighting Chaos -- first dealing with Skaven and the Undead in Nehekhara and Araby

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 04:32
Thanks for clearing that up. Anyway, let's get the creative juices flowing -- how do you think we can cut our Gordian Knot of how to resolve End Times and be rid of the Incarnates in post-end times?

I got my copies of Thanquol and Archaon the last two End Times books loaned out to a friend and I can't quite remember the nature of the ritual beyond that it required all the Incarnates, or at least the Eight Winds. Caradryan, the second Incarnate of Fire had died beforehand but Teclis was able to snare Aqshy before it could go into anyone else. Then Grimgor and Gelt died and Teclis wasn't able to contain all three Winds, obliterating him and destroying the ritual and leading to the world's destruction.

The problem with getting rid of the Incarnates is that they are the lodestones of each of Wind of Magic. Kill an Incarnate and the Wind flies free until it binds with someone else. You'd have to recreate the Vortex to be rid of them. And well... none of them are really in a position to attempt to recreate it, if there's anyone left with the knowledge to recreate the Vortex.

Certainly Nagash isn't going to agree to relinquishing Shyish so you'd need the others to keep him in check. Especially with Sigmar, only man Nagash fears. When he first met with the Incarnate and saw Karl Franz/Sigmar, Nagash shuttered.

And honestly I don't think they should be gotten rid of. Rather they should serve as the ones leading the rebuilding of the world and protecting the survivors from Chaos, Nagash, Skaven, Greenskins and whatever other threats remain. After just because Archaon is dead, doesn't mean that the forces of Chaos aren't still out there. Certainly the Everchosen's vast host will fracture but that just means that there will be countless smaller armies and warbands pillaging and destroying things, to say nothing of those Chaos armies not in the Empire.

Incarnate can't be everywhere but they can protect their territories from all these threats as their people rebuild.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 04:39
So, landing in the Southlands/Nehekhara, the Lizards just plan to continue fighting Chaos -- first dealing with Skaven and the Undead in Nehekhara and Araby

Actually Nagash emptied Nehekhara after he devoured Usirian and defeated Settra. There's no one left in Nehekhara. Though the Tomb Kings are against Chaos and has fought Chaos countless times.

That said if Settra manages to liberate a bunch of Tomb Kings from Nagash* and reclaim Nehekhara, they won't tolerate the Lizardmen expanding beyond the jungles and into their lands.

*Which I don't real think is possible simply due to the fact Nagash is in charge of the Nehekhara Underworld and was quite easily able to stop the Liche Priests from raising their dead again.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 04:42
I got my copies of Thanquol and Archaon the last two End Times books loaned out to a friend and I can't quite remember the nature of the ritual beyond that it required all the Incarnates, or at least the Eight Winds. Caradryan, the second Incarnate of Fire had died beforehand but Teclis was able to snare Aqshy before it could go into anyone else. Then Grimgor and Gelt died and Teclis wasn't able to contain all three Winds, obliterating him and destroying the ritual and leading to the world's destruction.

The problem with getting rid of the Incarnates is that they are the lodestones of each of Wind of Magic. Kill an Incarnate and the Wind flies free until it binds with someone else. You'd have to recreate the Vortex to be rid of them. And well... none of them are really in a position to attempt to recreate it, if there's anyone left with the knowledge to recreate the Vortex.

Certainly Nagash isn't going to agree to relinquishing Shyish so you'd need the others to keep him in check. Especially with Sigmar, only man Nagash fears. When he first met with the Incarnate and saw Karl Franz/Sigmar, Nagash shuttered.

And honestly I don't think they should be gotten rid of. Rather they should serve as the ones leading the rebuilding of the world and protecting the survivors from Chaos, Nagash, Skaven, Greenskins and whatever other threats remain. After just because Archaon is dead, doesn't mean that the forces of Chaos aren't still out there. Certainly the Everchosen's vast host will fracture but that just means that there will be countless smaller armies and warbands pillaging and destroying things, to say nothing of those Chaos armies not in the Empire.

Incarnate can't be everywhere but they can protect their territories from all these threats as their people rebuild.

I dunno man, a lot of folks tend to think the Incarnates are lame, and they seem almost too powerful to preserve a status quo after the the End Times. I say we take it in a different direction -- while Valten is fighting with Archaon at the siege of Middenheim and Teclis is dicking around with all the winds, one of the surviving Slaan from Zlatlan suddenly summons Teclis (hell, if Teclis can teleport Grimgor from Nippon, a skilled Slaan can do it). As Horus pointed out, Zlatlan had older plaques of the Old Ones' designs. One could imagine that Teclis screwing with the winds of magic has alerted the Slaan to his scheming, and also afforded them a new opportunity (had they not decided to flee the world), and try to create a new Vortex with the help of the Incarnates -- taking the steam out of the Chaos invasion, and allowing for victory in the Empire. Perhaps a little skubby, but it averts end times.

Regarding Nagash -- Why not kill him off, along with Archaon? I've not found a satisfactory way how, though earlier I suggested having Nagash and Archaon kill each other -- and there was resistance.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 04:50
Oh and here's a break down of the chapters of the first three End Times books and when they occurried. As I said, I've loaned out my copies of the last two to a friend.

Each chapter spans a specific timeframe and plenty of them overlap, happening in the same time just in different places.

Autumn 2523 - Summer 2524
Nagash Chapter 1-Arkhan and Gods-Damn Mannfred's journeys to collect the last relics to restore Nagash.

Autumn 2524
Nagash Chapter 2-The ritual to restore Nagash.

Spring 2524 - Winter 2524
Nagash Chapter 3-Neferata's journey through the World's Edge Mountains to join up with Nagash.

Summer 2524 - Summer 2525
Nagash Chapter 4-Everything that's going on in the Empire during the beginning of the End Times. The emergence of Valten, the rise and fall of Gelt and his Auric Bastion, Vlad first coming to the Empire's aid, Karl Franz's disappearance fighting the Blood Dragons that had fallen to Khorne.

Winter 2524 - Autumn 2525
Nagash Chapter 5-Nagash's campaign against the Tomb Kings

Spring 2525
Glottkin Chapter 1-The Glottkin travel south and Marienburg falls.

Summer 2525
Glottkin Chapter 2-Gutrot crushes the Forest Goblins of Drakwald as his army heads south for Altdorf.
Glottkin Chapter 3-Epidemius and the Maggoth Riders destroy Talabheim.

Autumn 2525
Glottkin Chapter 4-The Fall of Altdorf.

Winter 2524 - Winter 2525
Khaine Chapter 1-Malekith invades Ulthuan, Araloth's journeys to Nurgle's Garden to rescue Shallya, Tyrion draws the Widowmaker and Malekith becomes Phoenix King.

Winter 2525 - Winter 2526
Khaine Chapter 2-The Elf Civil War ends, the remaining Winds are loosed, Ulthuan sinks and the Elves are united.

Once I get my other two books back, which should be in a couple more days, I'll try to lay out a more detail timeline if you want it. Though don't expect any exact dates as they only mention seasonal and yearly timeframe on the first page of each chapter which I've written out right here.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 05:01
Oh and here's a break down of the chapters of the first three End Times books and when they occurried. As I said, I've loaned out my copies of the last two to a friend.

Each chapter spans a specific timeframe and plenty of them overlap, happening in the same time just in different places.

Autumn 2523 - Summer 2524
Nagash Chapter 1-Arkhan and Gods-Damn Mannfred's journeys to collect the last relics to restore Nagash.

Autumn 2524
Nagash Chapter 2-The ritual to restore Nagash.

Spring 2524 - Winter 2524
Nagash Chapter 3-Neferata's journey through the World's Edge Mountains to join up with Nagash.

Summer 2524 - Summer 2525
Nagash Chapter 4-Everything that's going on in the Empire during the beginning of the End Times. The emergence of Valten, the rise and fall of Gelt and his Auric Bastion, Vlad first coming to the Empire's aid, Karl Franz's disappearance fighting the Blood Dragons that had fallen to Khorne.

Winter 2524 - Autumn 2525
Nagash Chapter 5-Nagash's campaign against the Tomb Kings

Spring 2525
Glottkin Chapter 1-The Glottkin travel south and Marienburg falls.

Summer 2525
Glottkin Chapter 2-Gutrot crushes the Forest Goblins of Drakwald as his army heads south for Altdorf.
Glottkin Chapter 3-Epidemius and the Maggoth Riders destroy Talabheim.

Autumn 2525
Glottkin Chapter 4-The Fall of Altdorf.

Winter 2524 - Winter 2525
Khaine Chapter 1-Malekith invades Ulthuan, Araloth's journeys to Nurgle's Garden to rescue Shallya, Tyrion draws the Widowmaker and Malekith becomes Phoenix King.

Winter 2525 - Winter 2526
Khaine Chapter 2-The Elf Civil War ends, the remaining Winds are loosed, Ulthuan sinks and the Elves are united.

Once I get my other two books back, which should be in a couple more days, I'll try to lay out a more detail timeline if you want it. Though don't expect any exact dates as they only mention seasonal and yearly timeframe on the first page of each chapter which I've written out right here.

Exact dates are by no means required. Just a nice outline like you've provided is great.

I never bought the End Times books, myself, as I was saving for Nagash... but then started seeing the writing on the wall.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 05:10
I dunno man, a lot of folks tend to think the Incarnates are lame, and they seem almost too powerful to preserve a status quo after the the End Times. I say we take it in a different direction -- while Valten is fighting with Archaon at the siege of Middenheim and Teclis is dicking around with all the winds, one of the surviving Slaan from Zlatlan suddenly summons Teclis (hell, if Teclis can teleport Grimgor from Nippon, a skilled Slaan can do it). As Horus pointed out, Zlatlan had older plaques of the Old Ones' designs. One could imagine that Teclis screwing with the winds of magic has alerted the Slaan to his scheming, and also afforded them a new opportunity (had they not decided to flee the world), and try to create a new Vortex with the help of the Incarnates -- taking the steam out of the Chaos invasion, and allowing for victory in the Empire. Perhaps a little skubby, but it averts end times.

Regarding Nagash -- Why not kill him off, along with Archaon? I've not found a satisfactory way how, though earlier I suggested having Nagash and Archaon kill each other -- and there was resistance.

The problem with Nagash is A) he never stays dead and B) because of the things he did in the first book, he's become the linchpin of at least the human Underworld. If he dies for good... that's going to have a negative effect on the Underworld since Usirian and Morr (whom might be Usirian under a different name) are gone and Nagash had taken control of the Underworld.

He also unknowingly killed the Elf Goddess of the Dead when tore Shyish from the Vortex. Though she was replaced by an elf-turned-vampire that Lileath chose to replace said goddess for the pocket world she had created for a ton of elf souls, to protect for a time from Chaos.

By his own actions he's made himself vital to the world and potentially unkillable.

Also Teclis was able to teleport the Incarnates along with a portion of their armies by sacrificing the last elf god, Lileath. He didn't just teleport Grimgor, he teleported Grimgor and a chuck of his Beast-WAAAGH!!! there.

As for your suggestion, I don't remember the specific timeline, but the fall of Middenheim happened before the discovery of the artifact and Teclis's attempt to save the world with the Incarnates. In fact, the artifact was found because Middenheim fell and Archaon wanted to use it to destroy the world.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 05:13
Exact dates are by no means required. Just a nice outline like you've provided is great.

I never bought the End Times books, myself, as I was saving for Nagash... but then started seeing the writing on the wall.

Well if you want a fairly comprehensive, if long, discussion about each End Times book, at least the story books anyway, Garagehammer (http://garagehammer.net/category/episodes/) did podcasts on each book, several in the case of Nagash and Khaine.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 05:17
Well if you want a fairly comprehensive, if long, discussion about each End Times book, at least the story books anyway, Garagehammer (http://garagehammer.net/category/episodes/) did podcasts on each book, several in the case of Nagash and Khaine.

Tad too long for my tastes, but I might be tempted to take a look later.

Regarding the Incarnates, I'm tempted to take them out altogether, as they were rather skubtastic, and Valten was on the verge of beating Archaon, anyway, prior to the Kill-Steal. But I'll need to think about this a little longer.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 05:25
Tad too long for my tastes, but I might be tempted to take a look later.

Regarding the Incarnates, I'm tempted to take them out altogether, as they were rather skubtastic, and Valten was on the verge of beating Archaon, anyway, prior to the Kill-Steal. But I'll need to think about this a little longer.

Verge of beating him? No he wasn't. Valten fought Archaon, was getting thrashed by the Everchosen when a gold glow surrounded him. Valten got up while Archaon was ready to strike him dead when the Verminlord decapitated Valten from behind.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 05:32
Verge of beating him? No he wasn't. Valten fought Archaon, was getting thrashed by the Everchosen when a gold glow surrounded him. Valten got up while Archaon was ready to strike him dead when the Verminlord decapitated Valten from behind.

Sorry, I understood that as Valten about to beat his head in Morkar style

Razios
09-08-2015, 05:53
ok, since you are pretty serious about it, I will put some other stuff reyonlds said, like the fate of all chararter outside the end times books:


http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126726466527
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126712507359
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126702925023
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126702660319
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126726693599
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126659144671
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126652421343
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126652374751
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126652318175
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126614494687
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126610749919
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126607860959
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126277690847
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126607746527
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126607789791
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126604704479
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126603559647
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126593750495
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126562123743
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126548350175
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126562180063
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126529804767
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126529643231
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126529771743
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126499991775
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126496291039
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126460147167
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126460092383
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126456571615
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126456487391
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126443791583
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126441342943
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126423501279
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126421034463
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126420737247
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126416773087
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126388162271

this is all for the moment since there is more of it, but is a good star about what happen in end times with more detail, I hope the sheer number dosent bother you

Kotrag
09-08-2015, 06:56
@Kotrag,

Reading the Lexicanum entry for Norscans, it seems that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books actually left a ton of room for friendly Norscans, mainly because Marienburg had been trying so hard to establish Norse trade routes, and it includes that some of the southern tribes actually deal honestly and fairly with their Imperial/Southern neighbors and only raid for survival. They are far more focused on adventure and acts of daring that slaughter and murder. In addition, they actually worship from of the Imperial pantheon, like Ulric, in addition to the Dark Gods. However, refusing to join a Chaos incursion was usually grounds for annihilation. So, it could be that our Not-Beowulf witnesses Archaon's fall at the hands of Valten (and Grimgor), returns to his town in Norsca with tales of wonder at the southern god's power. Neighboring tribes grow antsy, so he and his retainers flee, migrating to the emptier parts of the Empire in the east, worshiping a less Chaotic pantheon and establishing a toe-hold in northern Ostland, fighting off Beastmen.

Lexicanum's Fantasy section is the single poorest repository of information on Norsca ever conceived. Better to go here instead; http://warhammerfb.wikia.com/wiki/Norsca

Even better, go to Kalevalahammer. http://www.kalevalahammer.com/

Secondly, I've read WHFRP 2, and the capacity for non-Chaotic Norse has been... exaggerated. The background there merely existed as a nod to early fluff where the Norscans weren't Chaos Vikings, but generic Vikings. Bear in mind, though, that during that time (I believe it was in the early 80s or something) GW hadn't really conceptualised Chaos and its role in the world yet. After it was established Chaos was in the North, Norscans became Chaos Vikings and have been ever since.

On another note, it should be noted that Norscans don't actually worship gods from the Imperial pantheon. They worship gods with similarities to gods from the Imperial pantheon. They don't worship "Ulric", they worship "Olric". They don't worship "Mannan", they worship "Mermedus". The latter demanding human sacrifices. So it's not really so neat as you might think; there's a massive amount of ambiguity in all of this, and there's enough evidence for either Olric and Mermedus being Chaos gods or "normal" gods. Even so, it should be noted that the Chaos Gods are everpresent in every tribes pantheon; being the core set of deities around which Norscan religion revolves.

Horus38
09-08-2015, 15:43
So, landing in the Southlands/Nehekhara, the Lizards just plan to continue fighting Chaos -- first dealing with Skaven and the Undead in Nehekhara and Araby

Pretty much, although they seemed more open to allying with other races from that quote which is something new.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 15:57
Lexicanum's Fantasy section is the single poorest repository of information on Norsca ever conceived. Better to go here instead; http://warhammerfb.wikia.com/wiki/Norsca

Even better, go to Kalevalahammer. http://www.kalevalahammer.com/

Secondly, I've read WHFRP 2, and the capacity for non-Chaotic Norse has been... exaggerated. The background there merely existed as a nod to early fluff where the Norscans weren't Chaos Vikings, but generic Vikings. Bear in mind, though, that during that time (I believe it was in the early 80s or something) GW hadn't really conceptualised Chaos and its role in the world yet. After it was established Chaos was in the North, Norscans became Chaos Vikings and have been ever since.

On another note, it should be noted that Norscans don't actually worship gods from the Imperial pantheon. They worship gods with similarities to gods from the Imperial pantheon. They don't worship "Ulric", they worship "Olric". They don't worship "Mannan", they worship "Mermedus". The latter demanding human sacrifices. So it's not really so neat as you might think; there's a massive amount of ambiguity in all of this, and there's enough evidence for either Olric and Mermedus being Chaos gods or "normal" gods. Even so, it should be noted that the Chaos Gods are everpresent in every tribes pantheon; being the core set of deities around which Norscan religion revolves.

I understand the godly differences and that these Norscans come from an earlier version, but even in Razios' Reynolds quotes, he states that the Norscans were fiercely independent and some rebelled against the chaos invasion after the killing of Erik Redaxe. In the original suggestion, it was specifically asked that we go back to earlier Warhammer canon for inspiration.

Cèsar de Quart
09-08-2015, 16:21
What would be your version of the end of the elector counts that don't had a death on screen? (Valmir von Raukov/Ostland, Theodoric Gausser/Nordland, Emanuelle von Liebewitz/Wissenland, Alberich Haupt-Anderssen/Stirland). And will we ever know what happened to Feuerbach?

They all died with their provinces, mostly. Gausser was killed in the fighting against Gutrot Spume's forces during the Glottkin's invasion, while von Raukov likely fell at Wolfenburg, when the Brothers Glott destroyed it. Emanuelle von Liebewitz was rescued from Nuln by Filthy Harald, and escorted to Wurtbad, which fell to Vilitch's forces as they moved towards Averheim. If she escaped Wurtbad, she perished at Averheim. Haupt-Anderssen died at the Battle of the Stir, when he was pulled into the river by an enormous Chaos troll and drowned.


And no, probably not.



My favourite is this one.

Is he making these things up on the fly, is he explaining narratives that were scrapped, or is he just filling the gaps? Generally, I mean.

Kotrag
09-08-2015, 16:42
I understand the godly differences and that these Norscans come from an earlier version, but even in Razios' Reynolds quotes, he states that the Norscans were fiercely independent and some rebelled against the chaos invasion after the killing of Erik Redaxe. In the original suggestion, it was specifically asked that we go back to earlier Warhammer canon for inspiration.

I... wouldn't really take anything Josh Reynolds says as fully authoritative in regards to any of the Northern tribes. I once asked him on that very site about his personal take on them, and he basically admitted in so many words that "I don't really know anything about [the Chaos tribes]."

You can even see that in the post you're quoting - Erik Redaxe has been dead long before the End Times ever started. He was killed during his invasion of Ulthuan.


My favourite is this one.

Is he making these things up on the fly, is he explaining narratives that were scrapped, or is he just filling the gaps? Generally, I mean.

Making **** up.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 18:23
My favourite is this one.

Is he making these things up on the fly, is he explaining narratives that were scrapped, or is he just filling the gaps? Generally, I mean.

Cesar, you reckon you could do another mock-up of that map replacing Volkmar with Huss and Todbringer with Gausser? I'm willing to save Gausser from Reynolds' quotes, but Todbringer had a fitting death in End Times. Unless someone has info on Todbringer's children which I've forgotten, similar to Karl Franz and Luitpold.

AkatsukiLeader13
09-08-2015, 19:11
If I remember correctly Todbringer has a son, a daughter and a bastard. However the son is mentally unstable and unfit to rule, the bastard son is a suitable heir, smart and strong but is ineligible because he's a bastard. The daughter I have no idea about.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 20:45
If I remember correctly Todbringer has a son, a daughter and a bastard. However the son is mentally unstable and unfit to rule, the bastard son is a suitable heir, smart and strong but is ineligible because he's a bastard. The daughter I have no idea about.

Looking through the fluff, Stefan, his true heir, died a few years prior to Storm of Chaos, and I can't find any mention of him in End Times. Baron Heinrich, his bastard son, cannot inherit, as you said. This does open some new avenues for us, regarding what we'd like to do with Middenland -- perhaps in the period after the End Times, no one is thinking about inheritance so much as recovery, and Heinrich takes control of Middenheim and puts his hat in the ring for Emperor, while Luitpold tries to disqualify him due to the nature of his birth.

Presentdent
09-08-2015, 21:21
Added a proposed point of divergence and a tiny story to go along with it, about the Golden Magus using his djinni to dick around with one of the great hourglasses of Araby, reversing time to the First Battle of Middenheim, and like the Butterfly Effect, the verminlord's glaive misses Valten, and his duel with Archaon continues.

Presentdent
10-08-2015, 01:43
Adding new ideas as I get them. After realizing the Glottkin probably did a number on Gausser/Nordland with their Northern invasion, and being reminded that Todbringer had an illegitimate son, I may eliminate Gausser and put forward Heinrich Todbringer as the new successor to Middenland (legitimacy be damned), thus making Cesar de Quart's map mostly correct (minus the mention of Volkmar).

Cèsar de Quart
10-08-2015, 16:10
Adding new ideas as I get them. After realizing the Glottkin probably did a number on Gausser/Nordland with their Northern invasion, and being reminded that Todbringer had an illegitimate son, I may eliminate Gausser and put forward Heinrich Todbringer as the new successor to Middenland (legitimacy be damned), thus making Cesar de Quart's map mostly correct (minus the mention of Volkmar).

I'd keep Boris alive, but Heinrich Todbringer can be a younger Boris. His illigetimacy probably can be waved off by an acceptance by the Ar-Ulric or just a general meh towards succession laws, since he's probably the most badass of the Northern candidates. And why not, make him work with Gausser (at first). Maybe Gausser has finally gotten to occupy the ruins of Marienburg and take the place, and is now content (for a while), while he takes a **** on top of the ruins.

As for Luthor Huss instead of Volkmar, I'm ok with it. Volkmar made a suitable grey eminence because of his political cunning and ruthlessness. Huss is probably just a strong, corageous nutjob... but hey, he's named after both Martin Luther and Jan Hus, the greatest Reformers from the XV-XVIth Centuries, so I say he's in. What's more, I foresee that his rule as Theogonist will bring about two things: the nailing of 99 Assertions at the main gate of the High Temple of Carroburg, and a defenestration of other priests in Talabheim xD

This is why I love the old fluff. Luthor Huss! Just look at the name! It's as if they went for Nelson Drake for a great admiral, or Robert E. Bonaparte for a brilliant land commander.

RobC
10-08-2015, 16:40
This is why I love the old fluff.Unless you mean 'old' as in 'not Age of Sigmar', you've just made a lot of people who remember the pre-Storm of Chaos background feel very, very old. :p

Presentdent
10-08-2015, 18:34
Unless you mean 'old' as in 'not Age of Sigmar', you've just made a lot of people who remember the pre-Storm of Chaos background feel very, very old. :p

We ARE old. Pre Storm of Chaos is old for GW and we don't matter. Lol. I've still got a Dogs of War army. I'm old as **** for the hobby.

@Cesar

Gausser goes to the ruins of Marienburg and sits there after Nordland got wrecked by the Norscan invasions, sure, and Heinrich gets legitimized by Ar-Ulric (after all, Todbringers have been in Middenheim for over five hundred years, right? Can't let something so silly as "succession laws" get in the way. The reason I considered eliminating Gausser is it allows for our Not-Beowulf to settle in the suitably named Nordland, lol. But I suppose Gausser could give up Nordland for the Wasteland, reckoning Marienburg is a much better city and Nordland has been wrecked by the Invasion.

As for Luthor, love the ideas. He'd be a much more radical theogonist and reformer.

Razios
10-08-2015, 20:15
Ok, since and the pessimistic nany(Yeah I like that) Im going to said somethings:

First at all, in what part of end times you are going to put your AU? nagash is to early and nothing much will change except for a bunch of dead people, glottkin have great part of the empre done, including marienburg and tabaland and almost aldort...but is in khaine where the real status quo change with malekith as the eternity king and the whole elf gods dead.

By the end of thanquenol is where two and half faction are dead: dwarf,lizardman and the emperie as a whole, so it you want the whole "incarnate stop chaos in the end" it will you cost everything because there is barely anything else to even call empire

Also this will beg the question of much of think could remain the same: not khaine,not lady...in fact not gods for that matter, even if brettonia stand his kinght are regular dudes with armour, nothing else so gilles better found something else enterly

Presentdent
10-08-2015, 20:31
Ok, since and the pessimistic nany(Yeah I like that) Im going to said somethings:

First at all, in what part of end times you are going to put your AU? nagash is to early and nothing much will change except for a bunch of dead people, glottkin have great part of the empre done, including marienburg and tabaland and almost aldort...but is in khaine where the real status quo change with malekith as the eternity king and the whole elf gods dead.

By the end of thanquenol is where two and half faction are dead: dwarf,lizardman and the emperie as a whole, so it you want the whole "incarnate stop chaos in the end" it will you cost everything because there is barely anything else to even call empire

Also this will beg the question of much of think could remain the same: not khaine,not lady...in fact not gods for that matter, even if brettonia stand his kinght are regular dudes with armour, nothing else so gilles better found something else enterly

The most support has been for a point of Divergence mid-Thanquol, with the verminlord not killing Valten, but rather Valten killing Archaon (and dying, himself, in the process). However, there will be little 'points of divergence' throughout the entire story, in that the Skaven attack won't be as successful as it was -- for example, there will be survivors in Tilea, Estalia, and Araby. Nuln doesn't get blasted off-screen. But the main point of divergence remains an Empire victory at the First Battle of Middenheim. In addition, while asking some Skaven/Lizardmen players, I've been reminded of the prophecy that Thanquol will do more harm to his allies than to his enemies (and this is why the Lizards didn't kill him when they had the chance). End Times seemed to have forgotten this. Thus, a suggestion was that Thanquol somehow have a role in averting the End Times, like killing Screech Verminking when he's in the limelight (thus saving Valten) and turning on Archaon's invasion, bleeding them a little, before running away into the Mountains of Mourn to scheme for his on Thanquolpocalypse without dumb Everchosen or Verminlord sneak-fiends taking the credit.

Razios
10-08-2015, 21:28
The most support has been for a point of Divergence mid-Thanquol, with the verminlord not killing Valten, but rather Valten killing Archaon (and dying, himself, in the process). However, there will be little 'points of divergence' throughout the entire story, in that the Skaven attack won't be as successful as it was -- for example, there will be survivors in Tilea, Estalia, and Araby. Nuln doesn't get blasted off-screen. But the main point of divergence remains an Empire victory at the First Battle of Middenheim. In addition, while asking some Skaven/Lizardmen players, I've been reminded of the prophecy that Thanquol will do more harm to his allies than to his enemies (and this is why the Lizards didn't kill him when they had the chance). End Times seemed to have forgotten this. Thus, a suggestion was that Thanquol somehow have a role in averting the End Times, like killing Screech Verminking when he's in the limelight (thus saving Valten) and turning on Archaon's invasion, bleeding them a little, before running away into the Mountains of Mourn to scheme for his on Thanquolpocalypse without dumb Everchosen or Verminlord sneak-fiends taking the credit.

So what happen with the incarnate, they will stick around ether way, also by that point bretonnia is out so the empire will try to annex it....if they can of course

Presentdent
10-08-2015, 22:04
So what happen with the incarnate, they will stick around ether way, also by that point bretonnia is out so the empire will try to annex it....if they can of course

Nope. Bretonnia isn't out. If you'll go back and read the first page, all of the details for the Old World human factions are listed. And the Incarnates won't have existed, if we go with this setting, or else Teclis' gambit to create a new vortex will suck the magical winds back into place, depowering the Incarnates.

Who likes the Warhammer Avengers anyway?

Presentdent
11-08-2015, 04:20
Added a Skaven entry.

could use more input on Dorfs, Orcs, and Elves (though I've gotten some input on elfs already)

dwarf_zepplin
11-08-2015, 04:47
Thanquolpocalypse You just made my day. :D

Presentdent
11-08-2015, 05:34
Was trying to figure out an elegant way to put it, then I realized that Thanquol probably wouldn't bother to do so himself.

The Thanquolpocalypse will be seven-- no-no, thirteen times better and bloodier than Archaon's End Times! Yes-yes. Big-bad warrior think he's the favorite of the Gods. Pah!

Edit:

Cesar de Quart, if you can edit your map to change "Volkmar" to "Huss," I'll add it to the first post as part of the official unofficial AU canon. Lol.

AkatsukiLeader13
11-08-2015, 05:59
The most support has been for a point of Divergence mid-Thanquol, with the verminlord not killing Valten, but rather Valten killing Archaon (and dying, himself, in the process). However, there will be little 'points of divergence' throughout the entire story, in that the Skaven attack won't be as successful as it was -- for example, there will be survivors in Tilea, Estalia, and Araby. Nuln doesn't get blasted off-screen. But the main point of divergence remains an Empire victory at the First Battle of Middenheim. In addition, while asking some Skaven/Lizardmen players, I've been reminded of the prophecy that Thanquol will do more harm to his allies than to his enemies (and this is why the Lizards didn't kill him when they had the chance). End Times seemed to have forgotten this. Thus, a suggestion was that Thanquol somehow have a role in averting the End Times, like killing Screech Verminking when he's in the limelight (thus saving Valten) and turning on Archaon's invasion, bleeding them a little, before running away into the Mountains of Mourn to scheme for his on Thanquolpocalypse without dumb Everchosen or Verminlord sneak-fiends taking the credit.

A) Fall of Nuln was an entire chapter of Thanquol and one of the few things to actually involve the title character. It didn't happen off screen.

B) While Valten was killed by a Verminlord, it was a Verminlord Deceiver, not Screech Verminking. Having Thanquol banish Screech, as he is a daemon, will not affect that.

C) With the way Screech plays Thanquol along with the deference and fear skavens have towards the Verminlords, I don't think its all that possible that Thanquol would betray him. After all these are beings that can't be tricked and smell lies. And Screech is the greatest of them.

And I got my last two End Times books back and I was wrong. Teclis wasn't enacting a ritual with the warp artifact, Archaon was. Basically he was creating a rift that would pull the area into the Realm of Chaos but then tear apart the rest of the world. Teclis was trying to seal the rift with the power of the Eight Winds.

But anyway I've been thinking about this setting for some time and I think having things set immediately after an AU End Times is not the best idea. Just looking at the Empire and what it went through, even in a reduced version, suffered horribly. The Empire is going to be spending years rebuilding, likely focusing on the less damaged south, where Nuln stands while in all likelihood the northern half will be overrun with Beastmen and Chaos warbands. Even if Middenheim stands, it will likely be largely on its own. The surviving armies are going to be in tatters and not really in a state to launch any real campaign to drive the survivors of Archaon's huge army.

Rather I think it should be set several centuries afterward so that it will give them all a time to rebuild their devastated civilizations. While they're not as great as they once were, the various civilizations are now beginning to expand outward, reclaiming lost territory and driving back the lingering darkness.

With the Incarnates, most of them survived. Grimgor died and maybe Gelt while Ungrim never died so he remained Incarnate of Fire and survived. With only one or two Incarnates dying, Teclis survives to seal the rift or better yet if there are some conscious Slann around that sense what Teclis is doing, aid him in it, taking a measure of the load of him. As that is happening Sigmar strikes down Archaon, ending the Everchosen. Afterwards they went their separate ways and led the rebuilding that followed. However between then and the present day, they have all disappeared.

Nagash, bitter over the loss of his chance at surpassing the Chaos Gods, retreated into the Black Pyramid, leaving the surviving Mortachs to rule in his place. Eventually the Black Pyramid flew off to parts unknown. Without Nagash, the surviving Mortachs when their own ways. Vlad, or perhaps Isabella, took back Sylvania and claimed status as Elector Count in the Empire, which Sigmar did recognize them but generally the Empire isn't fond of them and Sylvania. Khalida rose up against Neferata and led the surviving Tomb Kings back to Nehekhara. Neferata herself has disappeared into the shadows of the Empire, rebuilding her vast spy network. Arkhan, seemingly no longer connected to Nagash and for the first time in ages is unsure what he should do, has become a wanderer. Krell... well I'm not sure what to do with Krell right now.

With Sigmar and the Empire, Nuln became the capital again with Sigmar of course as Emperor. And like I said, they simply don't have enough men to retake the northern regions. Instead he calls for the survivors in the north to retreat to the south. Some do but many, unhappy with the idea of leaving their homes refuse to. Todbringer's bastard son, who wasn't at Middenheim when it fell, retook the city which had been largely abandoned by that point. Its since become an independent bastion in an otherwise wild and lawless region. But bitter over what happened to them and the Empire 'abandoning' them, resulting in a stubborn, defiant people that want nothing to do with the Empire. Ulric is still worshipped though all that remains of the God currently is a spark of his power that is passed from Graf to Graf, with the reiging Graf committing ritual suicide to pass the piece of their God on to their heir. Ulric is slowly recovering his power but he's still a far cry from what he once was.

In the south, the Empire has been rebuilding. Originally they retreated to the River Aver while maintaining a chain of forts and castles in Stirland and southern Reikland as a first line of defense. After the first century they expanded north, reclaiming those regions while establishing new lines between the Rivers Stir and Talabec. Since then they've expanded again, reclaiming Altdorf and Talabheim, though both cities are currently a pale shadow of what they once were, and first discovering that Middenheim stands once more.

Sigmar himself has, like his fellow Incarnates, disappeared recently, leaving behind Ghal Maraz and no clear successor. Insert whatever claimants here, though I wouldn't include Vlad if he's around. He can be involved in the succession crisis but wouldn't have him as a claimant, rather someone pulling the strings behind one of the claimants.

I have some stuff for the Elves but its getting late here and I'm pretty tired so I'll post it tomorrow.

Kakapo42
11-08-2015, 06:08
An interesting idea, but as far as I'm concerned any background should be reset to as it was in the 8th edition rulebook and left that way, with hobbyists then being free to develop it however they wish. I am a very strong proponent of the idea that the Warhammer World is a setting, not a story - there is no main 'plot', simply a world in which plots and stories take place in. The ET series has effectively turned me into a 'background anarchist', and the way I see it an important thing to take away from the ET series, especially the last few parts, is that no one authority should have the power to advance the Warhammer setting for everyone else. Indeed, the abandonment of the Warhammer World in favour of... whatever AoS is supposed to be, seems to me to be a golden opportunity to return the traditional Warhammer setting into the 'blank canvas' it was before the ET series came.

Incidentally, I actually came up with a whole lot background advancement myself (which I largely keep to myself, and am still debating about sharing on the internet since I'm not sure what the demand for it would be), though I'm not sure how useful it would be here since it's based largely around my own armies' background (I'm also a big believer that player armies should be the catalysts for background change - if you want to see a province of The Empire razed then build up an army and raze it yourself!) and perhaps more importantly takes place instead of the ET background rather than after it, with the point of divergence being shortly before ET: Nagash.

Presentdent
11-08-2015, 06:33
An interesting idea, but as far as I'm concerned any background should be reset to as it was in the 8th edition rulebook and left that way, with hobbyists then being free to develop it however they wish. I am a very strong proponent of the idea that the Warhammer World is a setting, not a story - there is no main 'plot', simply a world in which plots and stories take place in. The ET series has effectively turned me into a 'background anarchist', and the way I see it an important thing to take away from the ET series, especially the last few parts, is that no one authority should have the power to advance the Warhammer setting for everyone else. Indeed, the abandonment of the Warhammer World in favour of... whatever AoS is supposed to be, seems to me to be a golden opportunity to return the traditional Warhammer setting into the 'blank canvas' it was before the ET series came.

Incidentally, I actually came up with a whole lot background advancement myself (which I largely keep to myself, and am still debating about sharing on the internet since I'm not sure what the demand for it would be), though I'm not sure how useful it would be here since it's based largely around my own armies' background (I'm also a big believer that player armies should be the catalysts for background change - if you want to see a province of The Empire razed then build up an army and raze it yourself!) and perhaps more importantly takes place instead of the ET background rather than after it, with the point of divergence being shortly before ET: Nagash.

This began as a simple thought-experiment amongst friends, so I feel you. One suggested I put it online and get more input, and thus this thread was born. Been getting a lot of people (in and out of the thread) sending me suggestions, which has been fun. The point of this is (if it becomes popular enough) to provide a post-End Times setting for fluffy campaigns between friends. Yes, Warhammer Fantasy is a setting, but as it was, Karl Franz was always the Emperor. The Dwarfs were always on the verge of extinction. Etc. etc. This is just something fun for those who want to run Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Battles campaigns in a homebrewed and crowdsourced setting including parts of the End Times.

Col.Beefeater
11-08-2015, 08:50
An interesting thought I had in response to trying to fluff an army of Stormcast Eternals for use with 8th Edition rules:

What if as a result of Teclis/Nagash/Incarnates disrupting Archaon's ritual and saving the old world, the 8 realms of magic or w/e they're called in Age of Sigmar still come into existence as alternate realities. This accomplishes 3 things:
1) Allows background/justification for using new models with 8th edition. Where did these Fiery Dwarfs come from? Why the realm of Aqshy of course.
2) Greatly expands the setting to allow blank spaces for players to fluff out their own armies.
3) Creates a distraction of 8 new shinies for the Chaos Gods to play with and corrupt, allowing for some re-established stability and redevelopment of the devastated old world.

Presentdent
11-08-2015, 12:15
An interesting thought I had in response to trying to fluff an army of Stormcast Eternals for use with 8th Edition rules:

What if as a result of Teclis/Nagash/Incarnates disrupting Archaon's ritual and saving the old world, the 8 realms of magic or w/e they're called in Age of Sigmar still come into existence as alternate realities. This accomplishes 3 things:
1) Allows background/justification for using new models with 8th edition. Where did these Fiery Dwarfs come from? Why the realm of Aqshy of course.
2) Greatly expands the setting to allow blank spaces for players to fluff out their own armies.
3) Creates a distraction of 8 new shinies for the Chaos Gods to play with and corrupt, allowing for some re-established stability and redevelopment of the devastated old world.

The reason this hasnt really been discussed isn't that this isn't a good idea. Rather, most of the people I'm playing with want as little to do with Age of Sigmar as possible. The incarnates, for some, are even a step too far into skub territory. This is an experiment in what "moving the setting forward" could look like without radically changing the setting so as to be unrecognizable.

CrystalSphere
11-08-2015, 18:37
I am one of those who despise the idea of the incarnates, they made no sense with the established background - like the gods actively talking with people and doing stuff. In comparison the Storm of Chaos was way more in line with the rules of the setting, instead of end times which went all marvel on the lore.

Ideas that were fine by me in the end times: return of nagash, archaon launching his great invasion, ulthuan sinking and the true judgement of asuryan being discovered, grimgor leading an uprising of greeskins agaisnt the chaos dwarfs, skaven coming out in the open from skavenblight and hording Tilea/Estalia, the green knight returning and the identity of the lady revealed, etc.

So as you can see i did like the end times for advancing the setting, but several of the concepts seemed hamfisted in order to give some link or fore-word to the Age of Sigmar setting.

Presentdent
11-08-2015, 19:56
I am one of those who despise the idea of the incarnates, they made no sense with the established background - like the gods actively talking with people and doing stuff. In comparison the Storm of Chaos was way more in line with the rules of the setting, instead of end times which went all marvel on the lore.

Ideas that were fine by me in the end times: return of nagash, archaon launching his great invasion, ulthuan sinking and the true judgement of asuryan being discovered, grimgor leading an uprising of greeskins agaisnt the chaos dwarfs, skaven coming out in the open from skavenblight and hording Tilea/Estalia, the green knight returning and the identity of the lady revealed, etc.

So as you can see i did like the end times for advancing the setting, but several of the concepts seemed hamfisted in order to give some link or fore-word to the Age of Sigmar setting.


You got any specific suggestions for the Post-End Times world? I'm trying to figure out what to do with Orcs/Ogres/Grimgor. Also take a look at the front page if you want to see some of the ideas that have been pitched so far.

Razios
11-08-2015, 20:01
I am one of those who despise the idea of the incarnates, they made no sense with the established background - like the gods actively talking with people and doing stuff. In comparison the Storm of Chaos was way more in line with the rules of the setting, instead of end times which went all marvel on the lore.

Like Valten? or Ariel and Orion? the god where always there, and in fact outside the incarnate(who are not gods, just really overpower individuals) and Ulric it stay the same.

And again is hard to stop end times without chaing the status quo, and im saying really: no just killing the old cast but wipe outfaction, it is the point.

Im own idea is that Sigmar manage to make and alternate timeline after the destruction of the world, with all of them disapearing, chaos learn this and furious(after all, who denied somethig to them?) atack but sigmar creat the stormcast to driven back, this will explain why chaos dosent conquer everything: the incarnate in the other realm are kept them busy.

or so is my take

Presentdent
12-08-2015, 15:32
Finally got a suggestion for the Orcs. As people have expressed a desire to see Chaos take a back seat and regroup after being the main threat for so long, and Nagash is temporarily out of the picture, could use Grimgor as the "mounting threat." After breaking the Great Bastion, hanging the Chaos Dwarves from its mighty walls and conquering northern Cathay, he next planned to land a fleet in Nippon in the fashion of Kublai Khan. Rather than a monsoon, Eshin assassins sabotaged Grimgor's fleet before it could land. After bumming around in Northern Cathay, loving the size of the armies coming from the heavy population centers of southern Cathay and how many humies he gets to kill. But eventually, the Orcs grow bored, and the largest Waaagh! the Old World has ever seen, including ogres, making their way towards the World's Edge Mountains.

CrystalSphere
13-08-2015, 11:07
For Karl Franz i agree without doubt that he must die, preferably in a brutal and demoralising fashion, he was a statesman in the old background not a warrior, so he getting crushed in combat seems fitting. It also forces the empire to elect a new emperor so the status queo is broken no matter what.

I would prefer to see Grimgor die in a flamboyant fashion, that was his style - in order to make room for new orc characters. He could first break the power of the chaos dwarfs over their greenskins slaves, then go to fight Archaon and kill him just like in the SoC (i liked the idea of a greenskin saving the world, instead of Sigmar´s lightning posessing Karl Franz), but his wounds are mortal so he perishes. He could become a greenskin legend like Azhag or Grom, i think his story needs to be concluded - he was very brutish but not very cunning, so maybe Wurzagg creates a cult saying that the "chosen of Gork" will come back in the future.

For Kislev i don´t see the sustainability of having them hold to their lands agaisnt chaos, i would rather see chaos expands from the north so it goes further south. The frontier of the empire would step back, and the kislevites could settle in Nordland or Middenland and simply join the empire (maintaining their traditional rulers and stuff). I think Kislev could fit a good spot for the "non-chaos norse" that many people seem to want (the ungol horse archers were kurgan, so add a tribe of norse to the kislevite roster - to represent those norse who aren´t chaotic but have joined with kislev). They could worship Ulric while minimally acknowledging Sigmar, thus creating some tension with the rest of the empire - there could also be separatist ideas among the disgruntled.

Also in general i don´t want to see chaos losing ground and becoming a minor threat - if anything i would prefer a post apocalyptic setting, when the forces of order achieved a pyrrhic victory but they lost a lot of land, so there is a large area between the wastes and the empire who is made up by chaotic kingdoms - instead of having the chaosmen come out of the desert wastes, let them have their lands with their rulers and stuff. Sort of like a chaotic border princes.

Presentdent
13-08-2015, 15:50
For Karl Franz i agree without doubt that he must die, preferably in a brutal and demoralising fashion, he was a statesman in the old background not a warrior, so he getting crushed in combat seems fitting. It also forces the empire to elect a new emperor so the status queo is broken no matter what.

I would prefer to see Grimgor die in a flamboyant fashion, that was his style - in order to make room for new orc characters. He could first break the power of the chaos dwarfs over their greenskins slaves, then go to fight Archaon and kill him just like in the SoC (i liked the idea of a greenskin saving the world, instead of Sigmar´s lightning posessing Karl Franz), but his wounds are mortal so he perishes. He could become a greenskin legend like Azhag or Grom, i think his story needs to be concluded - he was very brutish but not very cunning, so maybe Wurzagg creates a cult saying that the "chosen of Gork" will come back in the future.

For Kislev i don´t see the sustainability of having them hold to their lands agaisnt chaos, i would rather see chaos expands from the north so it goes further south. The frontier of the empire would step back, and the kislevites could settle in Nordland or Middenland and simply join the empire (maintaining their traditional rulers and stuff). I think Kislev could fit a good spot for the "non-chaos norse" that many people seem to want (the ungol horse archers were kurgan, so add a tribe of norse to the kislevite roster - to represent those norse who aren´t chaotic but have joined with kislev). They could worship Ulric while minimally acknowledging Sigmar, thus creating some tension with the rest of the empire - there could also be separatist ideas among the disgruntled.

Also in general i don´t want to see chaos losing ground and becoming a minor threat - if anything i would prefer a post apocalyptic setting, when the forces of order achieved a pyrrhic victory but they lost a lot of land, so there is a large area between the wastes and the empire who is made up by chaotic kingdoms - instead of having the chaosmen come out of the desert wastes, let them have their lands with their rulers and stuff. Sort of like a chaotic border princes.

Do me a favor and take a look at the first post and descriptions of the races -- let me know what you think of that.

AkatsukiLeader13
13-08-2015, 18:22
For Karl Franz i agree without doubt that he must die, preferably in a brutal and demoralising fashion, he was a statesman in the old background not a warrior, so he getting crushed in combat seems fitting. It also forces the empire to elect a new emperor so the status queo is broken no matter what.

Expect if you keep portions of the End Times as canon, Karl Franz died during the Fall of Altdorf. What rose up after he fell was more Sigmar than Karl Franz.

And what made Karl Franz great wasn't that he was a great statesman, its that he was a great statesman as well as a great warrior and general. I don't know about the earliest editions he was introduced in but in the last couple he's become the triple threat of statesman, warrior and general. One of his early accomplishments as Emperor was to lead the Empire to victory in the most recent Battle of Black Fire Pass, singlehandedly slaying the Orc Warlord.

And of the great thinks about the End Times was how they showed in Nagash and Glottkin just how great Karl Franz was in all three areas.

To diminish him by making him only a great statesman is a poor decision because it diminishes the loss of Karl Franz. In over two thousand five hundred years of existence, he is one of the greatest Emperors the Empire ever had.

As for Grimgor, his death in the End Times was pretty epic and over the top and a call back to SoC. Basically he was out east breaking **** off screen with his Beast-Waaagh! when the spell was enacted to summon the Incarnates and their armies to Archaon's location, summoning him with them. He ended up near Malekith and after the two finished fighting the Chaos forces around them, when Grimgor was about to smash the elf forces too, Malekith tricked him by surrendering and telling him that Archaon was claiming to be the greatest. Naturally Grimgor didn't like the idea of some Chaos humie claiming he was the greatest and he ran off after Archaon with Da Immortalz in tow. When he found Archaon the two fought a vicious duel. It ended with Grimgor headbutting Archaon, shattering the Eye of Sheerian contained in his helmet. This royally pissed off Archaon who released the mad daemon within his sword, slaying Grimgor. But Da Immortalz, seeing their leader slain, went into the frenzy and threw themselves into Archaon's forces, slaying scores of them before being wiped out.

A pretty epic end for Da Once 'N Future Git.

And once again, I feel I should point out that as interesting as it would be to have this Edition start after an AU End Times is that most of the forces are spent and their kingdoms broken, in particular the human nations, the elves and dwarfs. They won't be much of a state to do much of anything for some time. Hence my suggestion to advance the setting forward a century or two, to allow them time to rebuild while maintaining Chaos as major threat. Most of the world is overrun with Chaos warbands, greenskins, mindless undead, Beastmen, etc. As result of their heavy losses in the End Times, the Order races have all retreated to smaller, more defensible enclaves to rebuild their strength until the time that they can expand and retake what they had lost.

Razios
14-08-2015, 03:41
Also in general i don´t want to see chaos losing ground and becoming a minor threat - if anything i would prefer a post apocalyptic setting, when the forces of order achieved a pyrrhic victory but they lost a lot of land, so there is a large area between the wastes and the empire who is made up by chaotic kingdoms - instead of having the chaosmen come out of the desert wastes, let them have their lands with their rulers and stuff. Sort of like a chaotic border princes.

Thing is....chaos dosent cared a single wit about kindoms, only chaos dwarft does that and barely, maruderts wants to win and become deamon princes, not rule land they don care about it.

Also you are describing a post-archeron type of victory, which it dosent roll so well because they empire lack to exist by that point.


And what made Karl Franz great wasn't that he was a great statesman, its that he was a great statesman as well as a great warrior and general. I don't know about the earliest editions he was introduced in but in the last couple he's become the triple threat of statesman, warrior and general. One of his early accomplishments as Emperor was to lead the Empire to victory in the most recent Battle of Black Fire Pass, singlehandedly slaying the Orc Warlord.

Indeed, also is refresing to see a leader who is something else to just the "biggest badass ever" finubar was but he dosent get any rules(hell, its thanks to age of reckoning we get something out of him)


And once again, I feel I should point out that as interesting as it would be to have this Edition start after an AU End Times is that most of the forces are spent and their kingdoms broken, in particular the human nations, the elves and dwarfs. They won't be much of a state to do much of anything for some time. Hence my suggestion to advance the setting forward a century or two, to allow them time to rebuild while maintaining Chaos as major threat. Most of the world is overrun with Chaos warbands, greenskins, mindless undead, Beastmen, etc. As result of their heavy losses in the End Times, the Order races have all retreated to smaller, more defensible enclaves to rebuild their strength until the time that they can expand and retake what they had lost.

Them....why bother with this and just jump into age of sigmar? after all the world will get so wipe up it will barely look the same, unless you made a mad max style of game

Presentdent
14-08-2015, 03:47
Thing is....chaos dosent cared a single wit about kindoms, only chaos dwarft does that and barely, maruderts wants to win and become deamon princes, not rule land they don care about it.

Also you are describing a post-archeron type of victory, which it dosent roll so well because they empire lack to exist by that point.



Indeed, also is refresing to see a leader who is something else to just the "biggest badass ever" finubar was but he dosent get any rules(hell, its thanks to age of reckoning we get something out of him)



Them....why bother with this and just jump into age of sigmar? after all the world will get so wipe up it will barely look the same, unless you made a mad max style of game

Which is why I'm not exactly using Akasutsi's suggestions. Most people don't want anything to do with the Incarnates, anyway. The point of Divergence will be Valten's triumph over Archaon -- though the true hero will Thanquol, who couldn't bear the fact he wasn't in the spotlight and nuked a large portion of the Chaos army.

AkatsukiLeader13
14-08-2015, 20:29
Which is why I'm not exactly using Akasutsi's suggestions. Most people don't want anything to do with the Incarnates, anyway. The point of Divergence will be Valten's triumph over Archaon -- though the true hero will Thanquol, who couldn't bear the fact he wasn't in the spotlight and nuked a large portion of the Chaos army.

Which is why I've been trying to remove the Incarnates without brushing them off. The big problem with is Nagash and his revival. Again, when he rose he tore out Shyish from the Vortex, weakening both the Vortex and the various Underworlds. By the end of his book, he has effectively taken over the human Underworld and become a God in his own right. And that was before he had bound Shyish to himself.

There was a good reason that all the other Incarnates* considered Nagash the second greatest threat to the world. Worse, this ET resurrection removed the curse of the Fellblade which had made his physical form progressively weaker each time he was resurrected.

*Well save for Grimgor as he wasn't there at the time.

And it would be even worse if the Incarnates were stripped of their power as it wouldn't hurt Nagash quite as much as the rest of them as his connection to Shyish would still be strong and with all the dead cluttering the world, he'd have an easy time raising vast legions of undead to overwhelm the already diminished and bloodied forces of Order. The other Incarnates can keep him in line, especially Sigmar, the only man he fears. At best his physical body gets destroyed in the End Times and it delays him for a time but with his control over the human Underworld, his surviving Mortarchs and their control over Sylvania, its only a matter of time before the Undead start looking at their weakened neighbours and think "MINE!".

Oh and there's Arkhan too, who's spirit is so heavily tied to Nagash that the End Times, particularly the novels and short stories, has Arkhan question whether he has free will or is merely a sliver of Nagash. If he's kicking around post-ET than he could become a voice for Nagash in the world.

And again, I have to stress the suggestion of not having this set immediately after an AU End Times because as it stands now, the Empire, the Dwarfs, Elves and Lizardmen aren't in a state to do much more than bunker down and rebuild their strength. In particular the losses the Dwarfs and Elves received devastated them. More so than the Empire, they need time to rebuild.

And it ignores the fact that Archaon has a legions of followers and daemons. Even if he dies and his vast army splinters, its basically trading an axe at the throat of the Empire for a thousand daggers stabbing its body.

Also your point of divergence doesn't really help with the Incarnates as they had already come into being before that point. Teclis freed the seven remaining Winds from the Votrex during the winter of 2526 while Valten's death happened in the autumn of 2527. So around third quarters of a year between each other.

At least with setting it several centuries after the End Times so they have a chance to rebuild while we can have the Incarnates disappear off-screen during the timeskip so that they aren't a factor in this 9E setting.

RunepriestRidcully
15-08-2015, 22:02
Maybe get rid of Nagash's usurption of the Underworld? Gives tomb king players back there faction and solves the problem of Nagash needing Incarnate like beings to keep him in order.

It's also a hammer
17-08-2015, 08:20
What about having saved Isabella from the curse Vlads body is found by Gelt who from his time using necromancy and being so close in proximity to Nagash is able to summon Vlads spirit back. In the wake of the end times and the loss of Sigmar in the rift with Archaon (who's combined god like energies were able to close the rift as they died) Vlad found Isabella and subjugated Arkhan to his will and from Sylvania launched a successful campaign and became the Emperor.

Allows pockets of human resistance against him led by Huss. Possible betrayal by Arkhan as he attempts to re-summon Nagash who is trapped in the Underworld.

AkatsukiLeader13
17-08-2015, 22:16
Maybe get rid of Nagash's usurption of the Underworld? Gives tomb king players back there faction and solves the problem of Nagash needing Incarnate like beings to keep him in order.

I've been rereading the End Times books and... yeah that's not going to work. Especially given the one thing I had completely forgotten about, something that first brought long before the End Times, the Black Pyramid of Nagash. It was designed and built specifically to gather and store magical energy from the Winds of Magic for Nagash. Once he was resurrected, Nagash pulled Shyish from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania before heading south to get his Pyramid so he could bring it to Sylvania to slowly absorb Shyish into his being along with all the magical power the Pyramid had gathered over the millennia. In fact between his victory in Nehekhara and the Pyramid's destruction by the Skaven in Archaon he was far more powerful than the other Incarnates, bordering on God-level (non-Chaos God) power. It was the destruction of the Black Pyramid that cost him much of that power, dropping him back down to Incarnate-level, shattering his plans to become a God and forcing him to parley with the other Incarnates.

The destruction of Usirian and usurpation of the Underworld was two-fold in purpose. The first was to advance his design to achieve Godhood but the more immediate reason was to quickly win the War of the Dead. You see the Tomb Kings do not have necromancy as vampires and necromancers do. Rather the Liche Priests summon the spirits of their dead back to their bodies. But they can only raise their dead. They can't raise the corpses of their enemies or the buried dead of other nations. Nagash consuming Usirian allowed him to stop the magics of the Liche Priests from summoning their spirits, preventing them from raising their fallen forces again and again. Certainly Nagash possessed far, far more magical power than Settra but I suspect Settra was a better strategist and military leader. While Nagash would have likely won the war anyway but Settra, with every Tomb King and their legions roused and at his side, would have made it a long, drawn out struggle for Nagash. Something he probably didn't want, especially if Vlad and the other Mortachs he sent to the Empire met with problems or someone, like the Elves, tried to unbind Shyish from Sylvania.

And that doesn't really address the matter that some don't like, the Incarnates. Nagash became the first Incarnate when he snatched Shyish, paving the way for the others. Well that and the fact his undying spirit had become heavily tied to Shyish over the millennia. In fact if I remember correctly every time Nagash had died his spirit would come to exist within Shyish, not entirely unlike Sigmar's imprisonment within Azyr. Though Nagash was able to speak to some extent with Arkhan and other lieutenants.

As a Tomb King player I didn't actually mind all that much the Tomb Kings being folded into the Undead Legion with the Vampire Counts, I was more annoyed that they got overshadowed by the vampires and that they only paid off that final Settra scene in the novels rather than the game books. Though Vlad's story was one of the best stories in the End Times.

RunepriestRidcully
26-08-2015, 11:06
Thats the issue, the folding the tomb kings into the vampire counts robs them of their agency, and any real power, and diminishes them form an actual faction to a subset that will be lucky to survive and forced to just.. accept the figure they hate most as their master.
Why does Nagash snatching Shyish/killing the underworld have to be kept? It pretty much destroys/undermines one faction, and does just relagate Tomb King's to lackeys of Nagash.
Plus what were all the other Tomb king gods doing? Yeah most of the remaining ones were of warfare and things associated with it, but did they just sit back twiddling their thumbs as one as their own was killed by the mortal who had destroyed their mortal land/civilisation?

AkatsukiLeader13
26-08-2015, 13:51
A) The same could be said for the Vampire Counts as all of them are just as much slaves to Nagash as the Tomb Kings.

B) Except the Tomb Kings didn't have much agency to begin with. Most of the time they slept in their tombs or watched over their dead cities until something comes and intrudes upon their realm.

Col. Tartleton
26-08-2015, 23:22
Here's my small issue. Before the End Times everyone was at their height of power, a golden age:

The Dark Elves had built their strength and Witch King Malekith was poised to actually take back Ulthuan. The High Elves under Prince Tyrion were positioned to throw them back into the sea. The largest war yet in ages was about to start and both sides had a legitimate chance of winning. The Empire was being led by the finest military and political leaders it had enjoyed in generations. The Hordes of Chaos had rallied around Archaon, a man whose feats of will and ruthlessness marked him as one of the greatest men to ever walk the earth. etc.

This goes for everyone faction. So naturally this is an exciting time to play the game, the time in which all the great powers were prepared for an unprecedented conflict. End Times serves to provide the rapid escalation and devastation of that war. So what bothers me is that any sort of resolution will leave everyone defeated. In order for Archaon's armies to sweep down from the North to defeat Naggaroth, the Empire, and Cathay he basically exhausted all the might of Chaos and destroyed all of their enemies. To me the interesting thing would be focusing on the past, because the future was inevitably bleak. Even if good prevails it would be at an enormous price, we'd lose entire swathes of civilized lands, numerous heroes would die, and the world would be that much closer to destruction.

If the Empire lives most people seem to agree at minimum the Eastern and Northern regions would be ruined, and it would take generations to restore and recolonize the sacked cities and ravaged farmlands. Likewise the wild lands of the far north would be emptied for generations. It would take a long time for their populations to recover, unless we take advantage of the idea that time flows differently. So either the north beats the south to the race and attacks again before they're ready or both powers take a long time to recover their strength and fight another war. As I see it, any Archaon invasion is going to hasten the demise of the civilized lands. Either he wins outright, wins the long game, or bloodies them and maintains the status quo. There's no downside for Chaos.

We saw the Archaon wins version of events in End Times. We saw something of the other two in Storm of Chaos. None of these results really improves the setting.

So as I see it, the challenge in creating 9th Edition is revising the End Times, but more importantly working to improve Age of Sigmar. How can we make the Age of Sigmar feel more like Warhammer, rather than trying to advance the timeline without breaking the Old World.

How do we get to Age of Sigmar and make it not suck while using the existing Warhammer fluff we like?

Kisanis
27-08-2015, 02:16
First of all, great reading!

I feel like the brets could be more of a perpetual crusader state; using anti-chaos religious fury much like christians during the crusade era.
Admittedly i'm more of a macro picture person. I like to look at maps and ledgers of the big picture, how many soldiers are left, how does the economy work, what does the trade look like?

I think in this world of shattered states, the once lesser nations need to start having an impact and a story. Araby, Ind, Nippon, etc... they need to be a part of the story now.

They all lived through what I am sure was their own chaos war.

To make this "new" old real have life, and feel all that more tangible, these are puzzle pieces that need to find a place, and frankly that was always a gaping hole, that GW annoyingly left open.

What of the other gods? What of the other monsters? What of these other millions of humans? The elves in their far trading posts?

I think another thing to be explored here is the chance for the dwarves to have their own reconquista.

The skaven are fractured and divided, and maybe an influx of humans seeking refuge from the empire and other lands they offer their hand in retaking the mountains?

I think Tilea and Estalia need to play a bigger part now.

What the end times did here was cause massive movment of peoples, and massive upheavel to the existing nation states.
Essentially this is the warhammer migration period and post-plague era all rolled into one.

I like the smaller narratives, but I feel like the bigger picture is still massively incomplete.


Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Razios
27-08-2015, 08:36
Here's my small issue. Before the End Times everyone was at their height of power, a golden age:

The Dark Elves had built their strength and Witch King Malekith was poised to actually take back Ulthuan. The High Elves under Prince Tyrion were positioned to throw them back into the sea. The largest war yet in ages was about to start and both sides had a legitimate chance of winning. The Empire was being led by the finest military and political leaders it had enjoyed in generations. The Hordes of Chaos had rallied around Archaon, a man whose feats of will and ruthlessness marked him as one of the greatest men to ever walk the earth. etc.


Which is one of the main issues here: the status quo is so fragil it is going to break any time soon, and indeed is going to happen in end times...just that it destrot everything.

Now my Idea is that incarnate manage to ascend to godhood and stop chaos, while the realms form around the world, link it around them, the warhammer world echo with life and this life move into one of the 9 realms, both need to survive againts chaos...

See? this change things: Sigmar become the only god alive and the fact he came again he become the storm-god, Tecils as the new khaine of light, Alariel-isha, Nagash....etc and establish who the nine-realm interact with the warhammer world.

What did you think about it?

Col. Tartleton
27-08-2015, 19:01
Which is one of the main issues here: the status quo is so fragil it is going to break any time soon, and indeed is going to happen in end times...just that it destrot everything.

Now my Idea is that incarnate manage to ascend to godhood and stop chaos, while the realms form around the world, link it around them, the warhammer world echo with life and this life move into one of the 9 realms, both need to survive againts chaos...

See? this change things: Sigmar become the only god alive and the fact he came again he become the storm-god, Tecils as the new khaine of light, Alariel-isha, Nagash....etc and establish who the nine-realm interact with the warhammer world.

What did you think about it?

Yes, I think it might make more sense to tear the winds from the Vortex and use them to create the realms directly, counter balancing chaos. Presumably this would make it harder for Chaos to manifest in the Warhammer World which is really the idea, plus giving the Order Gods a power boost. The human pantheon might carve out their patch of the Realms: Taal ruling the humans of Ghur, Rhya ruling the humans of Ghyran, Manann ruling the humans of Azyr, Morr ruling Shyish with Usirian, etc. Then we have a separate Elf Pantheon for the relaunch, so Asuryan rules the Elves of Aqshy, Vaul in Chamon, Isha ruling Ghyran, perhaps Kurnous and Anath Raema fighting over Ghur, and Mathlann ruling Azyr. The Dwarfs would have Grimnir ruling Aqshy, Grugni in Chamon, Valaya in Ghyran, Gazul in Shyish, etc.

Then we have various Chaos Realms for the different Gods. So Khorne is going to have his Realm of Battle, Slaanesh his Realm of Darkness, Tzeentch his Realm of Mysteries, Hashut having his Realm of Flame, etc.

I think all we really need is to balance the disparities between the Order Pantheons and the Chaos Pantheon. I don't really think elevating special characters to Gods does anything. Nagash is powerful enough as he is. He doesn't need to eat Valaya and Usirian and become Shyish. He's already a giant undead wizard who speaks in caps lock. I think he'll be okay. Let him continue scheming about Godhood and trying to conquer the other realms. He can even have his own Realm, he has enough magical savvy to do so. Perhaps even being Godlike within his own creation. Perhaps Nagashizzar will serve as a direct conduit to his personal realm. The Gods needing a physical connection to the World. Perhaps Taal at La Maisontaal, Ulric at Middenheim, Khorne at the Bastion Stairs. These sacred sites can be the centers of their cults, places they speak, and occasionally manifest in some way. The world isn't as awash in magic and chaos as it once was. A victory for the good guys despite the general beating they took.

Presentdent
29-08-2015, 00:50
Hey, folks! It's nice to see there's still attention for this topic, but I was recently suspended for apparently "trolling and derailing" the fluff thread about "Who is Sigmar?" by including shots at Age of Sigmar when explaining the character's story and where he is now. I consider that ridiculous and this doesn't seem to be a site I want to be a part of. However, plenty of you have discussed and contributed! So, while for the time being I will no longer be supporting this thread, I wanted to leave you with one last update. I have already moved most discussion of AU9 over to another forum and will be collecting the info on pastebin. Sorry to ditch all of you!

I thought I should probably update anyone who's interested on what else has been decided:

The Migration Period/Age of Exploration:
-Disenfranchised Tilean and Estalian noblemen, returning to their lands to find them ruled over by Bretonnian nobility, make for the 'New World' in the west. Now-abandoned by the Slaan and many of the lizardmen, Lustria is a flooded, cracked, and warpstone-covered continent rich for the spoils. Colonies are established by Tileans, Estalians, and even Imperial refugees realizing their county has become a pus-infected wound in the surface of the world.

-The Dwarfs of Karaz Ankor reel after the death of their High King and other leaders like Belegar and Thorek. Ungrim Ironfist is de facto leader of the Dwarves, with the help of surviving throng-lords and lesser thanes. Having marched first to relieve the siege at Averheim, and then to retake Nuln, they now sit in Karak Norn -- the lonely hold of the Grey Mountains. Even now, they plan a reconquest of the World's Edge, though there is debate over whether to go to Eight Peaks or Everpeak first.

-Between the times when the oceans drank Ulthuan and the rise of the sons of Archaon, there was an age undreamed of. And unto this, Grimgor! Destined to bear the jeweled crown of Cathay upon a troubled brow. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!

-Okay, Conan references aside, after smashing the Great Bastion held by forces of Chaos, Grimgor's Waaagh! drove into northern Cathay, butchering as they went, until Grimgor came to the ruined Summer Palace of the Dragon-Emperor. There, his Waaagh! gathered in the northern capital of Cathay. The Dragon-Emperor had retreated to his Winter Palace in the swamps and rice paddies of the south. When the world didn't end and the Cathayan army marched north once again, they found a rampaging Orcish horde to meet them. Much slaughter was had, and Grimgor felt he might have found paradise -- a world where there were endless waves of humies to fight (given Cathay's enormous population). But, even as he killed Cathayans one handed, Grimgor began to wonder... even if he killed more humans than any Orc before, he wasn't killing "the best." So he wasn't proving he was "the best." So, now, ruling as Cathay's Kublai Khan in the north, Grimgor wonders if it isn't time to turn around the largest Waaagh! the world had ever seen, back through the Mountains of Mourn, the Dark Lands, and to the Empire where he cut his teef.

-Malekith is Phoenix King. Tyrion wanders the world trying to atone for his great sins. Teclis is half-advisor to the (very much still evil and cruel) Malekith, convincing himself that his manipulations to put the Witch King on the ground were justified. The elven court is divided between two factions, those who wish to return to Naggaroth and drive out Chaos, and those who want to inherit the old colonies of Tilea, Estalia, and Bretonnia, now that human populations have dwindled... even if there are still a few humans in the way.

-Roderigo Delmonte is elected the new leader of Luccini after both Lorenzo Lupo and Leopold of the Leopard Company die in the final battle for Tilea -- with all of the Leopard Twins' descendants dead, the people of Luccini looked to the one captain that had shown most care for the citizenry, and that man was the cyclopean founder of the Alcatani Fellowship who fought a running retreat to shepherd refugees onto boats bound for Sartosa.

-Asarnil the Dragonlord took out a **** ton of Skaven, fighting like a G before he died.

-Pirazzo of the Lost Legion wonders whether now isn't a good time to put his experience to use and sign on with a group of colonists going to gather 'Green Gold' from shattered Lustria.

-Greasus Goldtooth got krumped by Grimgor, even without the Wind of Beasts, and the Ogres are engaged in an eating* contest to see how will be the next king. Golgfag, the obvious favorite, is too busy *********** around with a shark jaw on his back to participate. (Okay, this one is a little silly)

-Nagash, in his hubris, thought he could contain the power of a god. Even Karl Franz couldn't achieve that without burning out and losing his will to Sigmar. But Nagash is a tougher cookie to crack. Unfortunately, the role of God of the Dead comes with some limitations. Namely -- you actually have to perform your duty. He is now relegated to a Hades-like role in the underworld, bitching and moaning about his lot and life, shepherding the dead as a far more malevolent Morr/Usirian. He's still trying to figure out how to get back to the land of the living. Or at least get himself a Persephone.

AkatsukiLeader13
29-08-2015, 17:57
Pretty good. About the only thing I disagree with it Malekith remaining 'very much still evil and cruel' as it ignores what he went through in Khaine to become Phoenix King. He's not the same elf he was before the invasion. The darkness is still there but he has been... tempered for a lack of better word by his experiences as well as by those High Elves around him, namely Teclis, Imrik and Caradryan.

Plus Alith Anar at the end of Khaine told Malekith that while he doesn't forgive him for his past actions, he has set aside his vendetta against for the sake of their people. But if Malekith should once again become a danger to their people he will put him down personally.

It's most telling that his final act in the End Times, after Archaon has won and the rift starts consuming things is that he pushes the Alarielle out of the way of falling debris, getting himself pinned beneath rubble. And before anyone suggests that maybe he loved her, no he didn't. In Archaon when they talk about the new kingdom of elves, its revealed that both monarchs distrust the other. Alarielle fears that Malekith will slide back to his old ways while Malekith is constantly suspicious of her plotting against him as they had been foes before all this. It points out that the tragedy of it is that they are both wrong and that it is all Elven pride and history that drives them to keep their distance from each other.

Certainly Phoenix King Malekith wouldn't be the nicest guy but he wouldn't be the Witch King he was either.

Also when you say he's Phoenix King does that mean he still cares the last portion of Asuryan's power? As in terms of rules there's actually three Malekiths, along with three Alarielles and Tyrions. The first is the Witch King from the Dark Elf Army Book. The second is the Phoenix King version of him, empowering Malekith beyond his previous stats and abilities. The final version being the Eternity King AKA the Incarnate of Shadows.

And for that matter is Alarielle still the empowered Avatar of Isha? And what's their status of immortals? When Lileath, the last Elf god wed them she basically named them the eternal monarchs of the elves for as long as the world lived. And actually Malekith would still carry the title of Eternity King if that's the case as that's where the title came from. He wouldn't have the power of Ulgu but he would have the title.

Razios
29-08-2015, 20:06
I consider that ridiculous and this doesn't seem to be a site I want to be a part of.

Because you where, taking shot at age of sigmar even when I ask you to stop, so....

Why Dwarft are going to stay in their holds? they dont have enought power to hold them anymore, dosent it? also there is not reason to go back to Naggaroth as the fluff say the Druuchi barely care about it

Now, if you want something else, look what Josh post:

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/125510216415)#_=_

a ghoul kindom...sound cool or what?

here is also a recount of what happen in Brettonia so you can pin the exact moment of your divergance: http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/126383679711#_=_

AkatsukiLeader13
29-08-2015, 22:14
Because you where, taking shot at age of sigmar even when I ask you to stop, so....

Why Dwarft are going to stay in their holds? they dont have enought power to hold them anymore, dosent it? also there is not reason to go back to Naggaroth as the fluff say the Druuchi barely care about it

With the dwarfs its their last Hold, their only remaining city. They're gonna defend it until the end no matter how stupid that may be. Though I must admit I love the idea of the only Dwarf king left being the Slayer King and having to wrestle with the needs of his people and desire to fulfill the Slayer Oath.

As for the Dark Elves and their former lands I had forgotten about that and that before the left for Ulthuan Malekith ordered the cities razed so that the forces of Chaos that had been assaulting them would get nothing when they came around again.

So yeah there's really nothing there for the Dark Elves.

If anyone among the Elves wanted to reclaim a lost home it would be the High Elves but they can't really reclaim what's on the bottom of the ocean.

Of course there's still plenty of things that can be done with the Elves.

Urgat
30-08-2015, 08:08
Here's my small issue. Before the End Times everyone was at their height of power, a golden age:

The Dark Elves had built their strength and Witch King Malekith was poised to actually take back Ulthuan. The High Elves under Prince Tyrion were positioned to throw them back into the sea. The largest war yet in ages was about to start and both sides had a legitimate chance of winning. The Empire was being led by the finest military and political leaders it had enjoyed in generations. The Hordes of Chaos had rallied around Archaon, a man whose feats of will and ruthlessness marked him as one of the greatest men to ever walk the earth. etc.

This goes for everyone faction. So naturally this is an exciting time to play the game, the time in which all the great powers were prepared for an unprecedented conflict. End Times serves to provide the rapid escalation and devastation of that war. So what bothers me is that any sort of resolution will leave everyone defeated. In order for Archaon's armies to sweep down from the North to defeat Naggaroth, the Empire, and Cathay he basically exhausted all the might of Chaos and destroyed all of their enemies. To me the interesting thing would be focusing on the past, because the future was inevitably bleak. Even if good prevails it would be at an enormous price, we'd lose entire swathes of civilized lands, numerous heroes would die, and the world would be that much closer to destruction.

If the Empire lives most people seem to agree at minimum the Eastern and Northern regions would be ruined, and it would take generations to restore and recolonize the sacked cities and ravaged farmlands. Likewise the wild lands of the far north would be emptied for generations. It would take a long time for their populations to recover, unless we take advantage of the idea that time flows differently. So either the north beats the south to the race and attacks again before they're ready or both powers take a long time to recover their strength and fight another war. As I see it, any Archaon invasion is going to hasten the demise of the civilized lands. Either he wins outright, wins the long game, or bloodies them and maintains the status quo. There's no downside for Chaos.

We saw the Archaon wins version of events in End Times. We saw something of the other two in Storm of Chaos. None of these results really improves the setting.

So as I see it, the challenge in creating 9th Edition is revising the End Times, but more importantly working to improve Age of Sigmar. How can we make the Age of Sigmar feel more like Warhammer, rather than trying to advance the timeline without breaking the Old World.

How do we get to Age of Sigmar and make it not suck while using the existing Warhammer fluff we like?

Here's what I'd have done, considering I enjoy the fact Archaon wins in the end.
Well I don't really like the artifact thing coming out of nowhere in the end, but it's there, so it'll serve. Therefore, I'd only change the very last pages of the book. It all goes the same, excepted the artifact doesn't destroy the world, it "phases it" in the Realms of Chaos, or opens a demonic gate of unprecedented magnitude, something like that. Anyway, the World ends up being pretty much wiped out of its inhabitants by a big flood of demons.
Chaos has won, as in ET, Archaon stands on a rocky cliff, enjoying his badassery, and clap of thunder welcomes him as a new god in the Dark Pantheon, etc etc.

The Chaos Gos therefore have no interest in the Old World anymore, so when the artifact finally runs out of juice, the world is spit out of the chaos realms, the gate closes, whatever; the Gods don't care anymore, they just let it go (excepted Slaanesh, who's secretly happy - because it's noted (s)he wasn't too enthusiastic about destroying the Old World, (s)he probably enjoyed it as a playground). So the World is left ruined, but still there. Chaos is gone, too, excepted for a few warbands left behind to enjoy the giant sandpark. It's not in any better shape than it used to be though. All the magic that saturated it during the Reign of Chaos did its job. The polar gates are now closed, but there's so much magic it doesn't matter anymore, all but the most powerful demons can pop in and out on a whim, the chaos sorcerers can now duke it out w/o having to painfully gather the winds (that they've lost control of anyway, the Incarnates dissapeared, but the Winds, apparently, were not freed, at least they're nowhere to be found as of yet).
The denizens of the Old World are now, for all intent and purpose, beastmen who, forsaken by their gods, have turned even more feral and now cull themselves in wild abandon.

But, against all odds, there are survivors. 50 years have passed. Deep in the mountains or the forests, some have endured.
Gilles and his vampire pal ride forth from ruined Athel Loren that they've claimed as their own.
The elves who took shelter in that dimension where Araloth was hidden open gates to peek at the sad state of the world, and find it ripe for their return. It is a small dimension after all, and even though they've managed to live together up till now, Malekith and co are not blind, things are pretty tense. Better give the dark, high and wood cousins some personnal space to breathe.
The dwarfs pop out from their mountains, as inamovible as ever. The rift between the traditionnalists and the engineers have widened. The engineers claim tradition failed them during the End Times, and the Skavens, be they infinititely doomed, proved the superiority of technology. Traditionnalists resent that, and claim that it is the engineers that made them weaker. As they're dwarfs, this lead to emulation through competition. Dwarfs have never been so determined to show who's the best, excepted this time, they want to show each other, not some pesky elf or weak human.
Greenskins and ogres? United under Skarsnik, they're as unkillable as weed. Grimgor would have led them to extinction, trying to face odds heads on, but not Skarsnik.
Nagash, as the artifact was activated, found a world filling to the rim with magical energy, from which he tapped with abandon, in a blink recovering his god-like ppowers from before the Black Pyramid was destroyed. And destroyed it is, but whitin it his essence remains. Born back from the spell uttered by the god of Undeath, the Black Pyramid's fragments gather over Middenheim, and thus the dark monument is rebuilt. With his dark vessel, Nagash flees in the united realms of the Dead, a congregation of Morr's gardens and of that TK god's realm. He's one powerful being though. As chaos loses interest in the Old World, Nagash's realm pick their interest. He's been the closest one to defeat them, after all, or so they feel. But in his own realm, Nagash is one tough nut to crack. While the gods hae their stares diverted towards the Undead Realm, someone makes his move.

The gods of the Old World have been decimated, but there's one who doesn't give up easily. Tearing the veil of reality wth Ghal Maraz, Sigmar nearly escaped annihilation the way the elves did. He then start a crusade to save as many people as possible from the demonic onslaught that overruns the world. Cue to the creation of his own Heavens, the stormcast eternal. Forget the 1000 years, etc.

As I said, we're 50 years later. Luckily, all the surviving characters are either immortal, or enjoy a very long life span (excepted maybe Skarsnik, but we don't know a goblin's lifespan so if I say so, I say so).

All over the Old World, survivors have started the War of Reconquest. It starts in Athel Loren. This is where Gilles and Aborrash survived, where the Elves portals open, it is in the Grey Montains that the dwarfs endured. A mighty cohalition swipes north-west and reclaims much of the lands from the hands of marauding demons, beastmen and tribes. Once Bretonnia is reconquered, humans are to leave Athel Loren. This is the final elf/human covenant, claims the Phoenix King. So be it, answers the Green Knight, king of men. Dwarfs shrug about ****-like elven beer. They'll help the horse breeders some more because they like them better than the elves, then will cross the mountains east-ward to walk back to their old realms and maybe reconquer them, or start again from scratch.
Sigmar starts his War of Reconquest, sending his Stormcast Eternals through the gate opened in the ruins of his temple in fallen Altdorf, and quickly sets a foothold... only to hear of a mighty force coming from the South.
For there is one who has not waited for his time to come, never accepted the rule of anybody else, who wouldn't be content to let the storm pass. He who shall never bend the knee to someone else. Settra never understood why the Chaos Gods "revived" him, nor was he grateful, nor did he care. Only one thing mattered to him : revenge on Nagash. With a world bathed in magic and the deserts of Nehekara left relatively untouched by the demons (nothing left there), he slowly rebuilt his forces, and now marches north towards the porweful nexus of energy that is Middenheim. He hopes he can use the artifact to reach Nagash and finally destroy the traitor thanks to his his new-found powers and the gifts Chaos have left him.

And from the Middle Mountains, a tiny warlord with way too much power in his hands finally starts his own Waaagh, with the modest goal of taking over the entire world. With goblins, orcs, and even ogres in his grasp, nobody but Chaos has ever enjoyed as much power as Skarsnik now does.

All this is observed by two other forces. High above the clouds, ancient-looking pyramids over amidst the debris of Moorslieb, and their occupents try to comprehend what it is that led them to failure, and how to correct it.
And in the Realm of Chaos, there is a new ascended power besides Archaon. The Horned Rat finds himself in a rather uneasy position. Ascension to the Pantheon has pulled him out of his safe place, in the open, and the Chaos Gods do not enjoy this new neighbour much. The Horned Rat needs power, more power, enough power to compete with the four brothers. He needs Warpstone, in unlimited quantities, to gorge on. A moon's worth of volume, actually. And so a frightened grey seer skitterleaps into what he things is a demonworld. Seconds away from releasing the musk of fear, Thanquol discovers that things might not be so dire down there, that maybe fuylfilling his master's wishes might not be impossible...

So it starts with three rather close fronts : Everybody but Empire against Chaos in Bretonnia, a threeway brawl Sigmar vs chaos vs TK in the Empire, and a Waaagh emerging from Ochland, once again against Chaos, while Skavens and Lizardmen deepstrike everywhere. I guess Sigmarines deepstrike too when needed, because they're marines.
The fluffbooks I release are obviously a bit different than GW ones. No quest for Ghal Maraz, coz my Sigmar isn't a cluntz. We're now at the book "The Conquest of the Empire" (I'll have to GWify the name. Maybe "Bloods and Skull in the Sigmempire"). Bretonnia has been won back, Settra has pushed back Sigmar back to Altdorf (my Sigmar isn't a clutz, but he's a bit too optimistic, coming back in the middle with foes everywhere around him. Noit that he had a choice, with only one entry back available to him - because I decided so). The greenskins have taken control of Old Kislev and working theor way up towards the Trool Country and down along the World's Edge Mountains... only to find angry Sigmariners pucheed back by undead colliding with their back ends. So centered on the Empire we have elves coming from the South west (they left the brets to their own devices, they're now following their own agenda, using Athel Loren as a base), Brets from north west, Unbdead from the South east, greenskins from the north east. Dwarfs have linked back with the Empire, and are allies. Skavens... Skavens, I have to fin a reason for them to get sytcuk in Karak Eight peaks and not go straight for Lustria. As fpor the Lizardmen? The plans of the Old Ones have failed, but the intent was right. It is time for some New Plans, to put the World right.

As for the Chaos Gods? Settra didn't stop long to wonder why they brought him back to unlife... he might be about to find out, along with Morathi's fate and what happened to the Moot (in imaginary book 3! Stay tuned :p released on the 34 of Marchary 2014).

Sorry for the no doubt countless typos, I'm not abour to reread all that just yet.


After that stuff happens, I'm not going to rewrite the whole thing, but you get the idea.

Razios
31-08-2015, 05:24
Urgat: nothing bad, just one thing: cut the wold 50 years because after a while time will stop have sense with chaos in the world, maybe it return after a while but otherwise it feel strange.

Also they already put it here in 1d4chan: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Endhammer

Now is not that bad but there is something they are left out:

Sigmar been a incarnae should change the church of sigmar, it can be the same away after they witness the power never seen. also if Karl franz was touch....what this could mean for his son? also Taal and Rhya are out seen they get wipe out by nurgle, Ulric should have more strange after middleheim stand archeron, maybe the mage with the power of Ulric could stand against Galt.

Second is Brettonia: there is not way they reclain estalia and Tilea it feel force and fanwank to give them power after all it happen and how Abborash help is drop it, Brettonia should not expand, a least no that quick.

Third Mal returning into his old self and decided to get back to Naggaroth? please just....please.

I dont know...it feel more like post storm of chaos than end times, trying to retcon away GW in order to have a very week setting

Col. Tartleton
31-08-2015, 08:12
That's kind of my point. There's no way to not make going forward worse for the narrative and the setting than going backward.

Ultimately Warhammer worked better as a setting with a narrative than a narrative with a setting.

Anyhow, good start Presentdent. Details like Harald Hammerstorm becoming a Sigmarite warlord is perfect. Grimgor the Barbarian also amuses me.

There's definitely a lot to like about this. The trick will just be to make the new status quo feel balanced and interesting.

Razios has a point on about the Bretonnian ascendancy feeling a bit engineered. Just like I felt the Skaven succeeding was completely out of character as a Skaven fan. On the other hand Thanquol snorting his own body weight in warpstone dust and saving the world is as it should be. "I cut the breaks! Wildcard Bitches!" Then he's off to Khuresh for more drugs and a fleeting perception of safety.

ryng_sting
31-08-2015, 11:11
And that doesn't really address the matter that some don't like, the Incarnates. Nagash became the first Incarnate when he snatched Shyish, paving the way for the others. Well that and the fact his undying spirit had become heavily tied to Shyish over the millennia.

Not the full story. Teclis had been communicating with Nagash long before his return, and it was from their discussions that he took the idea of binding Shysh to himself. Teclis, as we know, didn't allow that to go entirely to plan.

Before the End Times, GW were keen to point out the difference between Necromancy and Shysh. Amethyst wizards accept death and endings, and avoid using Dhar or Dark Magic in their spells. Necromancers are the opposite.

Razios
01-09-2015, 07:01
That's kind of my point. There's no way to not make going forward worse for the narrative and the setting than going backward.

Ultimately Warhammer worked better as a setting with a narrative than a narrative with a setting.

Anyhow, good start Presentdent. Details like Harald Hammerstorm becoming a Sigmarite warlord is perfect. Grimgor the Barbarian also amuses me.

There's definitely a lot to like about this. The trick will just be to make the new status quo feel balanced and interesting.

Razios has a point on about the Bretonnian ascendancy feeling a bit engineered. Just like I felt the Skaven succeeding was completely out of character as a Skaven fan. On the other hand Thanquol snorting his own body weight in warpstone dust and saving the world is as it should be. "I cut the breaks! Wildcard Bitches!" Then he's off to Khuresh for more drugs and a fleeting perception of safety.

But a least there is a presedent since Skaven can cause mass destruction and many clan where burn out:pestilen,eshin and so one, but that is because End times was so damn fast, we didnt get to enjoy the end of everything(which is weird, they can make it slow and sell more that way)

Bretonnia being stronger can be atribute to Abborash making a pact with Giles and Ushoran, or something else...instead is just "Nop, he is just that good" and boom, sudenly they are theirs. also it dosent point out the elephant in the room: lilieth, she was the one giving power of kinght, without her they are just a bunch of uptight french who get beaten: HOW it deal with it? becuase it decide they just have the same power them is a cop up of the worse nature, like "and them this return just they way it is"

See my point? with something like the end times, the status quo goes to the warp and never look bad, you can advance the narrative but HOW it deals with it? GW never does since some miniture cant be sold anymore if that happen so it stay in this fragil status quo.

So for me, Im going with your idea(since I was having the same actually) just that some gods have to die: what about Taal and Rhya being swallow by the earthmother, Mort is out or fused with Shallaya as genderless god who juged life and death? you can have the incarnate being gods there in the realms but imposible to interfiere with the realm of mortal who have some sort of conection with the other 8.

What do you think?

Col. Tartleton
01-09-2015, 14:42
I'm not sure how the gods could "die." One would think the influx of fervor and souls would empower them. Talabecland might have taken a horrific beating but I would think they'd cling to their faith in Taal and Rhya. Middenheim broke the storm of chaos on its craggy walls so Ulric and Sigmar should be ascendant. Of course with the Old World out of sync from the Realms of Magic we may have trouble manifesting their powers, but they should be stronger than before if more distant.

The demise of the gods makes sense if you're genuinely ending the setting, but otherwise it seems out of place.

Razios
03-09-2015, 06:21
I'm not sure how the gods could "die." One would think the influx of fervor and souls would empower them. Talabecland might have taken a horrific beating but I would think they'd cling to their faith in Taal and Rhya. Middenheim broke the storm of chaos on its craggy walls so Ulric and Sigmar should be ascendant. Of course with the Old World out of sync from the Realms of Magic we may have trouble manifesting their powers, but they should be stronger than before if more distant.

The demise of the gods makes sense if you're genuinely ending the setting, but otherwise it seems out of place.

In the same sense eldar gods die went slaanesh went all buffet on them, dosent it?.

Also the issue becuase is end of the worl that god should die a least some of them so the whole world change, a problem with endhammer is that it feel like a shake up that anything else, in fact it remains me of storm of chaos as valten and archeron take up in middleheim and the whole change feel territorial and political without thinking who people react if they saw Valten(incarnation of Sigmar) take down the chosen of chaos an so one.

Also in my idea for age of sigmar-warhammer work it propuse that both realms have...echos between them which explain why there is life in those world and why they build civilization similar: is because the world that was is afecting the 8 realms as whole

Edit: look the talk page here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Talk:Endhammer for all their stuff is cleary they dont have a clear idea of what to do, specially about elf part of khaine(which to be fair, was quite divise here in warseer) and most of it as just guess it of who is going to end, like I said they should just make a continuation of storm of chaos

Razios
09-09-2015, 15:31
Ok, so far I will make this post only to put the new of "endhammer" it seen that after Tg typical bickering they have made something of a setting:

-There are some good ideas like a beastman kindom in Ind, that sound good, a least they have make a follow of Josh reynolds answer

-While Bretonnia dosent look so luck yet they still didnt aswer WHY liliesh will grand something to punny human anymore, or why Giles will work with her after all, it feel like they go backward with GW canon because it upset their status quo.

-Nothing to said with Dwarf but chaos one are a littl bit annoying in that they lose their most powerfull city and yet Hasthut is still strong...jeez.

-the Elves are the worst in this regard, at first they return Malekith to be the witch king, they fix that(or rather the deflect) and somehow Malekith can make a heri...yeah, not buying, them somehow Ariel and Orion are still alive and well even when they die in khaine, but Morathi is nowhere to been seen....how this happen? again they take GW canon but for reason let behind thing they dont want, it dosent work like that.

-The empire surived the end times, that should be sometime, a problem with Storm of chaos is that it never feel like cataclysmit even it was presented, the churhcs works fine making politic even after Taal,Rhya and all other god have fails but it never said anything about it, again they want to have the empire without have it.

-So the lizardman without Slaan? well that isn going well consider dragon islan where they are feral...but who cares

-The way skavenblight is destroy is really stupid and very ironic how they complain of GW doing the same, it clear they dont have any idea of weaking the Skaven so they dont wreck anything.

-So neferata is again enemy of Khalidia and Vlad and Isabella are a thing again...somehow, abborah it just giving a token nod at best in order to not disrut brettonian asension

In the end it dosent really feel like end of the world just stop, but going backward in order to undoing the whole thing, consider they boast being superior to GW, there sucess is....lacking

AkatsukiLeader13
09-09-2015, 22:54
*Looks up Endhammer...*

:eyebrows::rolleyes::eyebrows::rolleyes::eyebrows: :rolleyes:...

:wtf::wtf::wtf:

Yeah that's an ugly mess of silly, stupid and nonsensical things.

Itake
14-12-2015, 19:10
I'm going to risk a necromancy warning to say: excellent work! I've been searching for something like this for quite a while now, and I'm happy I found it.

Are you still working on this Presentdent?

I took a look at endhammer too. It looks pretty good, though there's a lot of... /tg/ going around. Not necessarily in a good way.

A couple of days ago I decided I don't want to let the WHFB world go. Probably I'm just too old, and I've got too much time and money invested in that broken world. Don't get me wrong, I'm no AOS-hater. I find the fluff decent, interesting even. I love the nods to the Old World, the returning characters, the idea of a major offensive by the good guys etc. But it's not WHFB, and it's very light. I realized while thinking about an empire civil war campaign that there are a lot of things you can't really do with the AoS fluff because it's so light. As an example there's nothing as "intricately" detailed as the elector count system (or even the Empire, with all it's rich history) in AoS. There's little to build campaigns on except the most generic of stuff (like "my chaos warband v yours") and the immense scale of the universe makes most battles a bit pointless.

Problem is GW nuked the old world, so now Seth we have to pick up the pieces. I'd love for there to be a version of a post-ET world (with some necessary changes to the ET timeline of course) that has at least some community backing. Doesn't have to be universally accepted, I'd just be nice if the setting had a decent amount of followers. I've been tinkering with various ideas on how to make the smallest possible adjustments to the ET story to allow for the world to continue existing, and not having every single named character ending up dead. Definitely going to use the things in this thread for inspiration and if I ever produce anything I'll be sure to post it!

I've also been considering the problem of a world that never moves forward due to lack of new official fluff. But when you think about, that's really no different then what we all got used to playing WHFB. Save the odd campaign here and there, and those campaigns you can easily do yourself with your gaming group (or even worldwide campaigns in 9th age or something). And given WH: Total War, I'm not entirely convinced GW is ready to let this IP go. We're getting at least one fresh injection of background material with the TW game, and the likelyhood of expansions is high. The likelyhood of future games, or other sources of background material (even perhaps books) seems equally high. It won't move the timeline forward past ET, players will have to take responsibility of that themselves, but it will continue to flesh out the world.

Anyway, that's what I hope.

Itake
14-12-2015, 19:22
Also, I got to ask, is there a summary of Josh's answers somewhere? I read the three in the OP, but he's got over a thousand on ask.fm, I don't really want to read through them all but I'm very interested in what he's got to say about alternate endings and "what if".

Razios
15-12-2015, 06:12
About reynolds, in that thread I put few more(which it clearly the best imput those people put it) and president left out because he didnt agree with the tone of the forum(he star bad mouthy AoS in his post even when it wasnt related and when I told him to stop he refuse so they erase their post and he left in response) but if you want to follow their project, here it is:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Endhammer

But I you allow my opinion, It isn worth to follow, why? because they focus WAAAAAAY more in preserving the old world and the setting as whole that truly explore the ramification of the setting now the cards have been play, for example.

Somehow Bretonnia end pretty well, with several bretonnia nobles taking position in Estala and Tilea, is weird because the country was barely standing after the event of Nagash, not to said they barely do something with Giles conection to Aborash...instead, Giles is Giles and he manage to turn around things....somehow.

Vlad and Isabella are good again....somehow....and plotting to take over the empire.

Horned rat destroy skavenblight......WHY?

and so own, the more you read, is clear they dont want to move post End times, just to take the status quo they want it and stick there because they can, that was the big issue of Storm of chaos and is clear they learn nothing of it.

But anyway, if you are still decided to go on about it, I will glady pass Josh answer about the fate of the chararter and his AU chararters.

Itake
15-12-2015, 08:22
Oh, AoS remains as divisive as ever I see.

Thanks for the info though. I'm still mostly interested in doing something on my own so I'm mostly looking for inspiration. I read all the Josh Reynold answers you put in your two posts, a lot of good info there. Most of it is about "what happened to character X" in End Times but there were a couple of good ones about what would have happened had the world not ended. I think it can serve as a great basis for a post-ET timeline.

Arnizipal
16-03-2018, 15:07
Moved to its proper place.

Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

Little Joe
13-05-2018, 18:20
The T9A project is just a spiritual successor, very different background. That said, of course you can play any setting you want.

The fluff should be released with gold edition.

Major differences so far are 7 Gods of Chaos, fully new motivations and background as well.

EDIT: wiki link (http://the-ninth-age.wikia.com/wiki/The_9th_Wiki) for current background

Karak Norn Clansman
17-05-2018, 19:23
Indeed, this would rather be placed in Old World section, believe it or not (unless this T9A forum was made into general Warhammer legacy). No worries, subtle nuances for those not following it all, but these things will become clearer for all in due time (because of content output, not legal posturing). T9A is crystallizing as much more of its own beast. Spiritual successor indeed: A Warhammer clone, if you will. :)

Still, it remains to be seen if T9A as a setting can capture the imagination of its players and run away with it the way Warhammer fantasy did through depth, detail, wacky humour and a vast, well-executed over the top smörgåsbord of elements from fantasy, mythology, folklore and history. Most of us are still playing T9A and other games with the brilliance of Warhammer in our heads. Give it time to grow and prove itself worthy.

Cheers

Little Joe
18-05-2018, 10:15
As a project for the people by the people, it depends on what "the people" do with it. I for my part will be exploring the world of T9A in terrain. So far the official background is about as much as AoS. :D

Karak Norn Clansman
19-05-2018, 07:46
Haha, indeed!