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Captain Idaho
17-08-2015, 10:49
I wanted to start a discussion on which lores of magic work well with High Elves and why, dependent on builds and style of course.

I favour a solid infantry game, with 35 Spearmen, 24 Swordmasters and 18 White Lions. I also use a Flamespyre and Frostheart Phoenix and 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers.

I have found our magic phase to be less reliable than other races simply because we can't generate power dice or reroll Winds of Magic rolls. As such, I just don't like Shadow which many swear by. The costs of casting are just a tad too high.

Life is good but becomes a lore you end up relying on to shore 70 weaknesses and if you have a bad phase you lose the game (hyperbolic).

Lore of Metal has great spells but because of the signature spell it's difficult to justify as having duff spells isn't good for flexibility. As an example, my Skaven and Nurgle Daemon opponents can easier prioritise dispells and Searing Doom at 10 to cast is a liability as if I go for this spell against a Daemon Prince results in easy choice for dispel etc.

Now, I have enjoyed Heavens but it and Light doesn't always seem to have much of an impact for me.

High helps us get spells out as it's quite low to cast for many spells and very versatile. The signature doesn't do much for me as I avoid deathstars and the Archmage sits in an Archer blob. However, Soul Quench and Tempest work well as artillery for him. Especially if I can get a Ring of Khaine into the list.

I have considered Fire as I am already sat at the back so why not act like proper artillery?

What are people's opinions here?

Horace35
17-08-2015, 14:41
I generally opt for High or Life, I like practically every spell in both lores. Life has some nice synergy with HE and like you say, High is very versatile.

Both of them give you a nice toolbox to work with whichever way you go

Captain Idaho
17-08-2015, 22:02
Have you any experience working with Fire? An Archer block with Archmage and fire is quite killy.

Though High can be versatile and still be killy.

Hmm. Think it'll be High for me next time round. Apotheosis to heal monsters etc seems useful.

It's also a hammer
18-08-2015, 07:45
Have you any experience working with Fire? An Archer block with Archmage and fire is quite killy.

Though High can be versatile and still be killy.

Hmm. Think it'll be High for me next time round. Apotheosis to heal monsters etc seems useful.

I like using the high magic lore mainly for the signature spell and walk between worlds as it gets some units into very awkward positions for your opponent.

Maybe be try a Mage with high and a Loremaster to get the 8 signature spells. Think he ends up with 3/4 magic missiles a couple of hexes and my favourite, wyssan's wild form. Very nasty on spearmen, very very nasty on swordmasters, lions or Phoenix guard

Captain Idaho
18-08-2015, 09:10
Yeah a Loremaster is pretty hot actually. Defensively they can be a little hard to compete since you basically need an extra dice, but with the book of Hoeth and all those Signatures he's a great addition. Good call.

I think I will go back to my Loremaster. :)

Anyone else want to chime in?

Horace35
19-08-2015, 09:02
Loremasters are pretty sweet but like you say in bigger games you find yourself outgunned. They are nice in addition to an archmage.

I am not a fan of fire, I find it one of the most boring lores. It also has a few crappy spells.

Metal is pretty decent and fun to use but is obviously much more effective against certain armies/builds

Captain Idaho
19-08-2015, 10:45
Can a Loremaster hold his own against a level 4? That's the next big question.

Seems awfully wasteful to have a 2D6 dependent Archmage alongside a Loremaster who really needs those dice for the 8 spells he has!

Horace35
20-08-2015, 09:41
I think the answer is it depends :)

Size of game, army you're fighting etc etc

You do not need to cast every spell you have in every turn, it is about being able to cast what you need when you need it, and dispel little easier. Personally I feel a little exposed with just a loremaster unless it's a small game

boli
20-08-2015, 12:39
Can a Loremaster hold his own against a level 4? That's the next big question.

Seems awfully wasteful to have a 2D6 dependent Archmage alongside a Loremaster who really needs those dice for the 8 spells he has!

I worked out a while ago that the "book of hoeth" on average gives a +2 bonus to casting/dispelling spells so a BoH plus LM is basically a level 4 archmage with 8 signature spells.

of course if you want that spell-spam a level 4 high mage with BoH can really do a lot of casting with very few dice as the lore of high is pretty cheap when you consider you are adding 5 and rerolling one of the dice.

in a pure infantry shadow is the best option - life good but you are playing a reactive game (reacting to your opponent) rather than building on the high elves strength (fast brutal attacks - kill him before he can strike back) - but given yhe choice loremaster with 8 signature is the second best option.

bigbiggles
21-08-2015, 08:09
I generally use an archmage with book and a loremaster. The mages takes most of the dice in the early turns, and then when combats start the loremaster goes to work buffing\debuffing the right combats for max effect.

Captain Idaho
21-08-2015, 22:56
Does that ok? It's tempting but it just feels sooo points costly.

WarsmithGarathor94
23-08-2015, 21:49
From my experience with dark elves life is pretty damn tasty beasts is nice too

Sent from my GT-I8200N using Tapatalk

Captain Idaho
23-08-2015, 21:53
Beasts could be awesome for me. I do love my fighty characters.

Life is hard to move away from for Elves of course.

Shadeseraph
25-08-2015, 20:16
My best experiences with magic are, in no specific order:

- Light: Light is awesome. It has great and cheap area buffs (Pha's, Byrona's), good battlefield control (Amyntok's), an awesome signature spell (Burning Gaze) and one of the best spells in the whole game (Banishment). Banishment is one of the few spells that can put some pressure on the current character-heavy meta, specially as some of the most dangerous enemies are daemons or undead. Pha is useful both early and late game, and works perfectly with MSU style armies, and Byrona can be an absolute game changer, specially if you are playing it so that it returns full ASF to units with both ASF and ASL. Even Light of Battle and Speed of Light, arguably the least useful spells in the lore for high elves, are quite useful in the right situation. Its main disadvantage is that it really requires a heavy investment to be of use: I'd consider 2-3 lvl 1 mages and a lvl 4 when making a light council to be the very minimum.

- High: this lore works specially well for cavalry armies full of characters, both abusing the lore attribute and because of its utility. Soul Quench is one of the best anti-chaff spells in the game, dispel magic can be quite powerful, but it's a bit too situational, arcane unmaking is your dispel dice drawer, WBW is a very powerful but hard to use properly spell, and fiery convocation can put a lot of pressure on the right target. It also works beautifully on a lvl 4 with the book of hoeth, who can abuse its low casting values to make sure it gets plenty spells, and in general is a very versatile lore. It's main negative is that its too versatile: most spells are only useful in one or two turns, and as such, it's relatively easy to prioritize dispells against it. On the other side, the attribute makes useful even the worst spells. It's very good when supported by a good lore (shadow or death) or as support for lores that lack magic missiles (life and shadow, mostly). End times magic makes this lore broken on an archmage with book of hoeth.

- Beasts: the signature spell alone makes this Lore worth it. You can take a lvl 1-2 with beast as support, and you won't go wrong. If you intend to dedicate to it, however, you'll need an army built around the lore. I'm actually tempted to try an elven Air Force based around this lore. Special mention to Curse of Anraheir, which has the markings of one of the best spells in the game. Long range, low casting value, it's very threatening, and works well both early and late game.

- Shadow. You know it. Everyone knows it. This lore is one of the best for elves. The only problem is generally high casting values (which makes it hard to use under low Winds) and a couple duff spells. Otherwise, you'll never go wrong with this lore, either with a lvl 1-2 (the signature is great) or a lvl 4 (many spells are worth a slot).

-Death. Not much to say here. Soulblight is brutal, the snipes are great on an army with good leadership and mobility, and some debuffs are very good. It's main draw is, as with shadow, high casting values, some dead spells, and a couple very good spells that turn largely useless against certain armies.

-Heaven. Heaven is under-recognized. It's actually quite terrifying to fight against an experienced player using heavens. It's got good balance of offensive, buff/debuff and battlefield control, all of them solid, even if they aren't awesome, and it's hard to prioritize dispells. Most spells have good casting values in general, and unlike fire its damage spells have good S. The signature is probably one of the best spells in the lore, too. Its main drawbaks are that it lacks a certain 'oomph' and that it lacks focus, so it's a bit hard to build an army around it. It's mostly useful, I think, if you want to play just with a single lvl 4 and nothing else, though it's also very good on any lvl 2 supporting mage.

-Life. Frankly, I don't like life very much. Sure, it has some powerful spells, and overall the lore is cheap and has one of the most powerful spells (dwellers). But it's easy to prioritize dispells (Throne > Dwellers > Stoneskin > Raise > everything else), and its dependency on throne makes it a bit rigid, and more dice hungry than it would look at first sight. Also, the signature is bad. That said, monster mash armies do benefit from the lore's attribute quite a lot. Anyway, this lore requires a level 4 to work well.

-Fire. I'm afraid this one is a bit lacking. There are exactly three decent spells in this lore: Fireball, sword of Rhun and, to a degree, firecage. Everything else is just a variation of fireball. It works best in a lvl 1-2, as support, but I'd rather take light or high instead. If you are playing under End Times rules, it's potentially devastating.

-Metal. This one is tricky. On one side, it has a bunch of very good spells (enchanted blades, coat and final trans). Also, the signature is devastating against the right target. On the other, too dependant on the enemy, and some spells are really bad. Also, it's a very expensive lore. I think it's best getting it on a loremaster, rather than dedicate a mage to it.

EDIT: Do note that I don't use the BotWD, and tend to avoid fielding frosties like plague. After having written this list, I realize that there are many things that change when one takes these elements into consideration. For example, life is much more useful, as it supplements greatly bannered deathstars, and BotWD allows Dwelllers to be 6-diced "reliably" even without throne. Many of the higher value lores become less of a gamble, too, and having less good spells becomes less of an issue as long as it gets one or two must-cast spells. Frosties and banners also give elves tools to deal with certain issues that otherwise have to be left to magic, so you can focus your magic on other things.

I'd also consider the loremaster and Teclis as whole new "lores", as they really offer a completely different approach to magic.

Laniston
25-08-2015, 21:29
I really love using High Magic. I tend to almost always take a large block of 20 Sisters of Avelorn with a Handmaiden. Hand of Glory to buff the BS on the sisters makes their shooting terrifyingly accurate. If you happen to get watchtower it actually makes any enemy in the tower MORE vulnerable to their shooting since with hand of glory the sisters can still be hitting on 2's and then reroll their to wound rolls.

Walk between worlds has saved so many units from a charge it's become a game changing spell, as has fiery convocation.
I could do without tempest but there are basically no spells in the lore that aren't useful. Tempest might not be very good but you can always give it up for something better.

Laniston
25-08-2015, 21:31
and Byrona can be an absolute game changer, specially if you are playing it so that it returns full ASF to units with both ASF and ASL.

I'm quite sure that adding a second buff of ASF does not cancel out the effect of ASL from two-handed weapons. Birona's will give the extra attack and movement, but it will not give your elves with 2 handed weapons "full" ASF.

boli
26-08-2015, 12:59
I'm quite sure that adding a second buff of ASF does not cancel out the effect of ASL from two-handed weapons. Birona's will give the extra attack and movement, but it will not give your elves with 2 handed weapons "full" ASF.

Correct. having ASL and ASF does *not* remove either buff - they merely interact so you strike at initiative so having 2 ASL and 3 ASF on a unit does not mean you end up with 1 ASF... you still have those 5 buffs on you and they interact so you... strike at initiative.

Light is "OK" if you are fighting daemons or undead but its use on elves is not that great as it will give you situational advantages only (I10 means you can stop other elves rerolling ASF attacks against you) - realistically you'll gain more by almost every other lore.

Captain Idaho
26-08-2015, 22:56
I've had success out of Heavens. The rerolls for archers is nice. Lightning bolts are useful for Warmachines and monsters as well as chaff.

And there's nothing as funny as Comet of Cassandora. :)

I use Archmages in Archer unit so find the range of my spells important.