Horus Heresy supporting action, or rather lack of it.

[nagash66]

Now unless i am very much wrong, much of the fighting in the Heresy was conducted by mere mortals ( to say nothing of the crusade), but i am finding ever fewer of them gracing the pages of any and all HH books. Now i know and realize that the HH is THE major marine conflict, but i feel without hordes of at least background armies clashing it makes the HH and the Space Marines themselves seem somehow smaller.

The tallarn books are a great example, where the majority of the fighting is done by regular joes, terrified by gas they cant survive, the outside world which would eat them alive, and always 1 crack of their metal box away from death, when out of the mist a contemptor walks out, or a terminator squad walks up to a bunker door and tears there way in. It makes the Heresy seem like a actual war, while the Marines seem like actual Legiones Astartes.

Compared to say the Ultramarine Primarch novel where thousands of marines are deployed with 0 army, navy or Mechanicum support shown ( tho the way the battle is writted 1 titan would make the entire fight pointless).

This is also the case of the Mechanicum, where the better books ( Know No Fear, First Heretic, Legion) will at least include them as background or supporting many just seem to pretend they are not there.

Now i know a pure Army book is not likely ( tho would actually end up serving as a showcase of WHY the Legions are needed and special), its still something i would like, as are more pure Mechanicum books ( especially in this era where dogma was not as tightly controlled).

What are other peoples thoughts?

[The_Real_Chris]

The Heresy seriously lacks scale. Go read some accounts of say Kursk, or the war on the eastern front. The Heresy seems curiously provincial in comparison and legions amazingly small. And never it seems operating in much of a battlefront but concentrated in a way that combined with the vagaries of warp travel would take decades to conquer a fraction of what they have...

[Inquisitor Engel]

The Heresy seems curiously provincial in comparison and legions amazingly small.

I think this is because when you're talking a galaxy wide war, and individual battles taking up whole planets, the distances are so vast that there IS a disconnect from one battle to another. Also, it's written by pulp sci-fi authors, not military historians.

[nagash66]

I think this is because when you're talking a galaxy wide war, and individual battles taking up whole planets, the distances are so vast that there IS a disconnect from one battle to another. Also, it's written by pulp sci-fi authors, not military historians.

Yes and no, i feel BL has show it can do the scale better justice when it tries to, i feel that if the editors and big heads wanted to press the point they could, but it simply is judged to not be warranted ( or perhaps not what the fans want?).

Know No Fear vs the Ultramarine primarch novell are examples of when they remeber that legions need help and support and when they just go Space Marines F! Yeah for me.

Do agree that the nature of travel does make a disconnect of a 'front' a valid reality, tho this could be lessened by making a clearer picture of key planets/objetives of campaigns clearer, i mean at this stage we know about the same of the road to terra from 20 year old sources as the black library series.

[kilkrazy]

Kursk took place over a 450km front. With 3m people on both sides.
You plonk you 100k marines down and they might be fighting over a 60 to 150km front, If that. While the guard might extend it 5 times as much. Tanks 400km away are no good. Theyre getting stonked by the guard.
3 waves of 30000k marines at 3m spacings is only 90km. (thats if my mafs are right)
Thats a awful lot armoured mini tank loonies charging down a narrow front.
It not so much the marine numbers, people seem to think that 100k Marines line up shoulder to shoulder, and take up a huge amount of space.
Its the Guard doing the dirty work of holding the line. Do you want to hear about Joe Guardsman, shoveling shells into a basilisk and getting slaughtered?
Or do you want to hear about giant, armoured supermen chopping stuff up that end the fight.

[nagash66]

Why not both? Without Joe Guardsman the marine becomes the guardsmen as bigger better marines then just chop down waves of tacticals.


Why not set the stage by outliing the 450km front, and then tell us how a drop pod assault of just x number of marines at the crucial junction at the crucial time will do what Joe guardsmen cannot do, swing the battle. Use their stormbirds and thunderhawks to insert tanks and armor at places no sane human would even try. Teleport dreads into command bunkers after ninja marines get the teleport hommer set up, etc etc. But to a backdrop of actual warfare.

As i said earlier for me the best stories are the ones where the marines act in a setting of imperial warfare, Iron within has gene ogryns and Imperial army dying in droves so their iron warriors master can do what must be done. The serpent within has base security maned by humans so the Alpha legion can out alpha legion eachother without needing to be manning guard points. Master if Mankind has the Mechanicum deploy LEGIONS of tech thralls and automata so the CUSTODIANS can do their thing. etc etc.