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Razios
11-06-2017, 00:02
Here is the spoilers fo the dark Millenium, enjoy

Well, here are some spoilers I found about the novel, cheer with you.


Plot points:
Ordered as they arise in the novel

100 years has passed. (p44)

Mankind is now closest to the brink it has ever been, since the long night. This is because of Abbadon’s warp storms (Cricatrix Maledictum) and the destruction of alien tech protecting the material realm. (p44).
Whereas they were once rare, breaches to the warp are now ‘commonplace’ and happening across the galaxy (p67).

Cawl had made good on his promise, spending millenia fashioning new legions of improved space marines; with which Guilliman founded new chapters. These had allowed Guilliman’s crusade to speed from one crisis to the next and even cross the great rift which divided the galaxy. (p47)

After 112 years of hard crusading the Indomitus campaign nears its logical conclusion. After talking to his father and turning the Imperium over to a state of total war, with new fleets constructed and whole populations recruited, the conclusion was at hand. The great rift still split the sky, but the enemy has been dealt a grievous blow: several traitor fleets shattered, daemonic legions banished, and many worlds taken back. With the imperium shored up, the time of the great armada was done: the Indomitus campaign concludes with a change in strategy. (p46-7)


A final battle of the crusade, the Pit of Raukos, will decide the form of this new approach (p47). Pif of Raukos notes:
Forces of Nurgle make advances on Ultramar, through the hospital planet Iax, throughout the description of the Pit of Raukos. (Chapter 8)
Elements of the Word Bearers, Black Legion, Iron warriors, and various renegade forces oppose Guillimans armada. Word Bearers are the greatest Contingent. The enemy is constructing something in orbit (a fane) (p52-3). It is an orbital temple for blood sacrifices to keep the doorway that is the Pit of Raukos open (p69).

Proximity to the Pit of Raukos makes astrotelpathy problematic. (p54)

Representatives of all arms of the crusade are present in the battle, as insisted by Guilliman. (p54)

The Pit of Raukos is a huge, slowly turning, interface between the warp and real-space within the gases of a dying star. It is a separate anomaly from the main storm front of the Great Rift, but a deep wound in its own right. It is a deep hole into the heart of the warp. (p67 a description of the appearance of the hole can be found here too)

The imperium currently lacks the ability to close doorways to the warp like the Pit of Raukos. Yet, it can destroy the fleets and structures that service and support them. (p68-9)

Orbital temples are usually constructed by the Word Bearers and have built many of them. (p72)

The imperial fleet gains the upperhand on the chaos fleet because of Guilliman’s leadership, strategic acumen, and perceptive abilities. The chaos fleet and then orbital temple are destroyed. The imperial forces then prepare for a ground invasion of the nearby planet to scour the world clean. (p76-79)

The ground assault is victorious. (chapter 7)

Guilliman ends the Indomitus crusade. (p117, also p169)

During the setup for the celebration at the end of the crusade an old-style marine arrives to inform Guilliman of death guard attacks against Ultramar. The Endurance, ship of Mortarion, leads a fleet towards Ultramar. (p123).

Espandor has been under attack by the risen dead for a long grueling war.[during this war agents of nurgle infect soldiers who will then go to the hospital world Iax and pave the way for a daemonic invasion chapter 16)] (chapter 11)

Cawl is searching for Pylons to reactivate and to allow him to reproduce the technology. Cawl has had limited success and sends machines to close the Pit of Raukos. Cawl works to eventually close the great rift with such technology. Guilliman hopes to use them to establish a permanent route to the the Imperium Nihilus, but this is decades or even centuries away at Cawls current rate of development. (p157-9)

With the crusade ended, Guilliman declares that he will take those primaris marines of his geneline and march for Macragge. (p171)

Hidden inside wounded soldiers the invasion of Iax begins as a rift is opened to nurgles garden. (chapter 14)

Nurgle-infested void wales (reconstructed as ships) squirm out to deliver an invasion of Iax, bringing waves of daemons with them. They also bring Ku’gath and six other greater daemons of nurgle who brought nurgles own pot. (chapter 16)

Chaos cultists lead a rebellion, ostensibly a demand for more food and freedoms, in Illyria.

Mortarion has setup a large damonic machine in a hive city on Ardium. Walking dead and death guard garrison the hive. The machine is a large clock which spreads daemonic influence throughout the sector - it destabilizes the star-realm of ultramar and allows the leakage of the warp into our spacetime. It is made with chaos and xenos machinery. It was made by Mortarion himself. Felix leds a strike force and destroys it. (chapter 18)

Typhus refuses to participate in Mortarians plans, accusing Mortarian in pursuing vengeance over and above seeking to expand nurgles garden into ultramar Ku’gath is creating the greatest disease ever, intending to kill Guilliman. Mortarian plans to allow Guilliman victory on Ardium as part of a longer term plan to poison, weaken, and then kill the primarch. (chapter 19).

Guilliman holds a council on Macragge, the council of Hera. The white scars and twenty four other chapters are coming to the aid of Ultramar.

During the Council of Hera Guilliman announces that Adeptus astartes will rule over greater ultramar with the reinstatement of the old title tetrarch. Five space marines will rule a planet which in turn rules a sector of greater ultramar. Between these five sectors all of ultramar will be ruled by space marines. (p257) (specifically: Agemman rules Konor, Portan rules Andermung,Balthus rules Protos, Felix rules Vespator, and Calgar rules over the central worlds as chapter master. Calgar is the overarching ruler of them. (p256-262)

Human rulers of the realms of ultramar voice their discontent at Guillimans redistribution of power into the hands of astartes. (p262)

Mortarian has the hand of darkness and is using it to create the artifacts which allow him to raise so many undead across ultramar. These devices have been placed around strategically to create a net which enhances warp power in some way. (p264-6)

Guilliman decides to first attack Espandor (with the daemons on Iax being too strong until some of the devices are destroyed). He declares the endeavour the Spear of Espandor and intends to capture the system, which is closest to the scourge stars, and cut off Mortarian’s supplies and reinforcements. (p266)

Espandoria Tertio, a city holding the last daemon clock of Espandor, is assaulted by five and a half thousand space marines. (p270) The assault is successful (chapter 21)

Guilliman leads twenty librarians and some sisters of silence into the cathedral at the center of Espandoria Tertio where they locate the clock. (p285) Together with Mathieu they destroy the clock. (p293)

When the clock is destroyed a rift is opened and the clock turns into a daemon. The daemon is Qaramar of the lost second, the rot drake. It causes daemons to pour into the cathedral. (p296) Guilliman fights and sends this daemon back to the warp (p296-300)

With Espandor now saved Guilliman leaves some chapters to secure it and purge any remaining death guard. The rest of his forces are to withdraw and redeploy to Parmenio. Guilliman is sure that he will find Mortarian there. (p301)

Razios
11-06-2017, 00:07
Character development notes:
-Guilliman rarely sleeps now, sleep is described as a casualty of being dead so long, he meditates instead. (p44)
-Cawl mentioned as the only one capable of understanding how a primarchs body works. (p45)
-Guilliman blames himself for the failures of the Thessala campaign in which he was wounded. He views being awoken 10,000 years later into the same war as an opportunity to put things right, In his darkest moments he reflects that the world he now lives in may be the hell of some primitive cult, where has been condemned to suffer(p46)
-Guilliman only feels capable of fully concentrating on a single issue in his reflection room. His attention is drawn to too many issues simultaneously when not in reclusion.(p48) attention to detail is exceptional, he demands (and receives) updates even when only retired to meditations for short periods (30mins). (p54)
-Guilliman’s quarters aboard the Macragge’s Honour (which he thought lost) were preserved, since its pursuit of Lorgar, and he now uses them as his flagship. It is a designed for the legions of old. It is no longer underused and houses large numbers of marines like during the great crusade. (p49)
-Guilliman’s hair has thinned slightly, his face is a little more worn, and he has some grey hair. He still carries pain, since his resurrection and the lingering aftereffects of Fulgrim’s poisons. Spiritual pain, although Guilliman refuses to accept it as such (and describes it as emotional) haunts him; his soul has been injured but he refuses to accept it. (p50)
-New podiums in Guilliman’s armoury/museum on his flagship house examples of the new Mark X power armour, all designed for different combat roles but Cawl. (p51)
-Guilliman can take his armour off, and it is stored in the Grand hall of Armament. His old armour, is stored in the reliquaries of Macragge. (p51)
-Guilliman reintroduced the practice of being statesmen and warriors to his chapter. He even discusses matters of state and the development of his domains during the preparations for battle (when brief respites allow). (p54)
-Guilliman allows the techpriests to pray during the equipping of his armour (although, he winces at it). He has little time for religion, and did insist the techpriests stop singing. he still finds time to rule Ultramar from afar, despite the pressures of the campaign. The followers of nurgle have killed more with plagues than the violence of the war itself. (p55)
-For the first thirty years after his resurrection Guilliman would correct his subordinates when they misquoted him. He explained that his supposed saying were apocryphal. He then gave up in exasperation. Most did not believe his denials, holding Guilliman up as an Ideal, valuing their preconceptions of him too highly. (p58)
-Tribune Maldovar Colquan of the Adeptus Custodes is ashamed at the custodians lack of action. He responds to this shame by directing gall at the troubles of the imperium. Guilliman(who have been declared the imperial regent and the emperor’s living voice, allowing command of custodes).privately agrees with the sentiment. He found the Custodians overcome with grief and uninterested in the happenings outside of the imperial palace. In the face of crisis after crisis, Small groups of them now operate across the galaxy. They now risk being blinded by the rage (p68)
-Cawl has refitted the Maccragge’s Honour with new machines and new configurations of old devices. Techpriests were outraged but Guilliman silenced them. Cawl has his own faction of tech priests and they maintain it. It is at least 10% more effective than the previous technology and more reliable. (p70)
-Chaos’ resistance to authority and centralised leadership has allowed Guilliman to get an advantage time and time again throughout the crusade. (p72) is exceptional perception allows him to direct his fleet to swiftly destroy ships that could otherwise withstand hours of bombardment. picking out weaknesses in their shield layers which would otherwise go unnoticed. (p77)
-Guilliman only formed half the original Primaris marines into chapters. The other half were used in large armies with some elements of the codex being followed. This resulted in them sometimes fighting like the old legions. This group was called the Unnumbered sons of the Primarchs (but called themselves greysheilds) and they were slowly dived off into depleted chapters or to form new ones. (p79)
-A new type of ship, transporting up to 50 marines, specialising in atmospheric scouting and troop insertion was developed for the crusade. (p83) This craft was developed by Cawl, dwarves the Thunderhawk, and is called the overlord (p217).
-Guilliman spends any leisure time available to him reading histories about the time inbetween his ‘death’ and rebirth. Cawl provided him with some updates, but this information was vague due to Cawls seclusion and focus on his studies. Guilliman finds himself having to make up for the shortcoming of others [cawl] when it comes to figuring out the history he missed. The discipline of history has become mired in superstition and pseudoscience. The inquisition even offer some resistance to Guilliman’s search for knowledge. To counter this going forward Guilliman is training his own historians. These new historians are called historitor-investigatus. After a hundred years there are now 500 who use Guilliman’s authority to open locked vaults of information in a great undertaking to compile the lost history of the Imperium. (p104) -The current year is unknown for sure due to poor handling of the imperial dating system established by the emperor. Guilliman figures it to be somewhere between M41-42. (p106)
-Guilliman is saddened by the imperiums attitude to failures and tries to avoid the waste of life. (p104)
-Guilliman’s interaction with the emperor in the throne room [during gathering storm] still troubles Guilliman. It’s described as “a spear of light and pain whose psychic aftershocks troubled him still.” (p107)
-The imperial navy was under strength when Guilliman took over. He is now proud of the size of the indomitus crusade and has expanded the fleet. Salvage operations are no longer able to scavenge defeated chaos ships. Guilliman has instead ordered new ships to be built more frequently. (p107)
-The Aeldari have told Guilliman about the scale of war against chaos (but have been unwilling to tell him the full story). He was awed by the great war which makes the past 10,000 years of conflict seem like merely a summers campaign. Guilliman now takes on his father's role despite the scale of the task being hidden by the emperor when he reigned. Rage keeps Guilliman from despair at the task ahead of him and the emperor's true intentions. (p109)
-Captain Felix, a primaris marine, is described as having spent 10,000 years coming in and out of stasis. Presumably to facilitate Cawls research and development. (p110) he was recruited to the Primaris marines project just after the war against Horus. (p180)
-Guilliman appoints his Millitant-Apostolic (high priest?) from lower ranks of the clergy. He appoints Frater Mathieu near the end of the crusade. When asked by Mathieu Guilliman admits he does not view the emperor as a god. (p112)
-The library of Ptolemy of Maccragge was barred because Guilliman did not want people to read about the shadow of the second imperium (?). (p115)
-Guilliman acknowledges he was too focused on breaking up the legions and trusted the council too much. He has revised the codex astartes and is writing a new book called the Codex Imperialis. This book shall describe the principles of good governance. Guilliman wonders what would have happened if the Emperor hadn’t lied when he issued the Imperial Truth and if the emperor had lied about even more than the gods of the warp. (p115-116) he also admits that, on balance, the Adeptus Ministorum has been a force for good. He tries not to directly order them to do some things because he refuses to be a tyrant. (p117)
-Guilliman is recombining Greater Ultramar. However, there is resistance. Guilliman regrets granting independence to the 500 worlds. He did it to avoid setting the precedence of space marines ruling large parts of the imperium. Given what the imperium became anyway, he wishes he had left it intact as an example of what the imperium could be. In his obsession to avoid the misuse of space marines he opened up the way for the imperium of today. (p128-9)
-Some of the Primaris marines remember when Guilliman walked among the Ultramarines and tell stories of these times of old. (p132)
-Cawl’s has built a communication device in Macragges Honour and it is forbidden to all except Guilliman and he may only visit by invitation. An astropath lives within it to help facilitate communication. Some components are xenos tech. This communication device is a bizzare reconstruction of Cawl called Cawl Inferior. Cawl uses it to ask Guilliman to install him as fabricator general of mars. (p148-53) Cawl (specifically, his reconstruction devised to communicate his position) asserts that he has no colleagues and is the only member of the adeptus mechanicus not afraid of innovation and able to improve on the emperor's own designs. The communication device holds all of cawls knowledge and may contain intelligence of its own (p157-60).
-With a century of data the primaris marines have been found to work exceptionally with a 0.001% chance of mutational deviancy per generation. All their organs are functioning well. There has been a 94% acceptance rate of the new marines and equipment among the chapters. [note: at the end of Guilliman’s crusade it contains 20,000 primaris marines and 40,000 old marines, Flawed gene lines doesn’t appear to be causing problems (blood angels and space wolves). Cawl has had full success with the construction of primaris marines from all gene lines (traitor and lost) and wants to put them into full production. Guilliman forbids this, but suspects Cawl will continue anyway. (p160-1)
-Cawl’s creation states it doesn’t know where Cawl is and that Guilliman may not be able to meet with him in person. Guilliman wonders where hw is and exactly what he is doing. (p162)
-The priest Mathieu hopes to bring faith and hope to Guilliman (p166-167).
-Primaris marines represent the new Space Marine paradigm (Felix surmises). Part of this is because they have been given political experience to better guide the imperium - statesmanship will be as important as warcraft to the new space marines (Guilliman told Felix). (p179)
-As the unnumbered quasi-legion of the Primaris marines is broken up some of them feel resentment at their new assignments but they understand and accept their role in the new times ahead. (chapter 15)
-Calgar admits that it is hard ceding full control to Guilliman and doesn’t look forward to doing it again. (p213) He feels like a failure because Ultramar is still mired in war as the primarch returns. (p214-215)
-A primaris librarian accompanies Felix and a group of Primaris during the assault to relieve the siege of Ardium. (p216)
-Guilliman increasingly looks to the Primaris marines as his first solution. He makes no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered. [observes Felix] (p218)
-Primaris aggressors play the role of first breachers. They wear bigger armour with shoulder mounted missiles.(p219) Possibly also armed with flamers (229)
-Felix wishes for the flexibility older-style space marine squads offered - especially jelious of their heavy weapons. He considers the hellblasters a good compromise though. (p227)
-Primaris Reiver squads play the role of melee combatants, using heavy bolt pistols and oversized combat knives augmented with disruption fields. They also have enlarged shoulder pads to act as shields in melee. They are infiltration and close combat specialists.(p231)
-Mortarion’s ship the Endurance houses(/is) a small part of nurgle's garden transplanted into the mortal world. (p239) Mortarion has captured the soul of his adopted father [not the emperor] and keeps it on his ship to torment it. He spent a thousand years chasing the soul of his xenos father, focusing on nothing else (p242) Typhus has clear contempt for his genefather, He views him as not fully believing in chaos and as not having sacrificed for his position and see is plan as flawed and not blessed by nurgle. He refuses to participate.(p244-6)
-Calgar accepts that Felix was added as a captain, without a company (yet) to the Ultramarines because it is Guilliman who appointed him Calgar finds something about how casually Guilliman uses the ancient relics like they were everyday objects offensive. However, he also chastises himself for this notion and acknowledges that such relics are precious because they were in fact the primarchs everyday objects (furniture ect). Calgar views the primarch as overly autocratic (resorting to tricks in his use of power, for example). After reflection, Calgar isn’t sure if he’s disappointed in Guilliman or in his fellow man. During Guilliman’s address to the council Calgar feels like a failure. (252-5)
-During the council of Hera Guilliman promotes Astartes to rule over men in various parts of Ultramar. He does this because of his disappointment in how men have ruled themselves. He selects marines from all chapters that originate from his geneseed. To minimise the chance of dissent between primaris marines and the old marines Felix is appointed as one of the five tetrarch’s ruling over ultramar. This causes significant discontent within the human rulers at the council. Guilliman states he intends this to be a model for all of the imperium. (p258-62) Calgar views Guilliman’s words at the council as (yet another) insult, although disguised in kind words. (p262)
-Guilliman accepts intelligence from the Ynnari in the form of an explanation of how the dead are being risen across ultramar. Abbadon gained the Hand of Darkness which was constructed by the old ones. This was then given to Mortarian. (p264)
-Malcades, the firs primaris marine to fall in ultramar, was interred into a redemptor dreadnaught. (p268)
-Guilliman insisted the city of Espandoria Tertio be captured by assault rather than destroyed by orbital bombardment. He states publically that this is to avoid destroying any surviving citizens. In private he admits it’s also to ensure the destruction of the artifact within.(p269)
-An existing marine saves Felix on the battlefield and comments that in Felix’s new office the great days are born again. (p275)
-During the battle for Espandoria Tertio Felix takes command of increasing numbers of marines as their leadership becomes scattered and the squads are displaced during the attack. (p275-7)
-Felix still has trouble accepting the way the emperor is worshiped in the new age he awoke to. (p279)
-Medical teams rescue some diseased survivors from Espandoria Tertio. The teams exhibit bravery and even range ahead of the advancing imperial forces in some case, to find citizens to help as quickly as possible. The resilience of the citizens gives Felix faith in his purpose and humanity. (p280)
-Guilliman occasionally wonders if the emperor is in fact a god, but every time he considers it he ends up dismissing the possibility. (p284) he had made a point of re-establishing the sisters of silence, who had become less prominent over time and dwindled to near extinction. It surprises Guilliman that they, too, worship him as a living saint. (p286)
-Militant-Apostolic Mathieu enters the cathedral on Espandoria Tertio as Guilliman is about to attack the final clock on the planet. Despite the presence of nurgle’s plagues and minions he wears no protective suite and is unharmed. He prays at the feet of the clock.(p288-9)
-Guilliman is angry that the emperor lied about the nature of the warp and left the primarchs and space marines vulnerable to it. (p289)
-Mathieu explains that the emperor is indeed a god by virtue of the power he wields. He uses the emperor's tarot, the living saints, and the legion of the damned as examples. (p290)
-Guilliman reflects on his meeting with the emperor. The truth of the emperors feelings were exposed to Guilliman: his creations were mere tools and not loved as sons. (p292-3)
-Guilliman accepts that he could only defeat the daemon Qarmar because of the emperor’s blade and that this is somewhat godlike. (p299)
-Guilliman tells Mathieu that the emperor loves them all, but Guilliman knows it to be a lie. (p301)

Lost Egg
11-06-2017, 09:54
Well thanks for sharing :D

Lord Damocles
11-06-2017, 13:07
Hmm. Cawl wants to replicate the pylons.
He knows that the pylons are related to the Necrons. He's on Mars. The Mechanicus know that the Noctis Labyrinthus is connected to the Necrons. The Labyrinthus contains (or until relatively recently contained) a shard of the Void Dragon. It was the Void Dragon who designed the pylons originally...

Voss
11-06-2017, 17:06
-Guilliman increasingly looks to the Primaris marines as his first solution. He makes no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered. [observes Felix] (p218)
-Primaris aggressors play the role of first breachers. They wear bigger armour with shoulder mounted missiles.(p219) Possibly also armed with flamers (229)
-Felix wishes for the flexibility older-style space marine squads offered - especially jelious of their heavy weapons. He considers the hellblasters a good compromise though. (p227)
-Primaris Reiver squads play the role of melee combatants, using heavy bolt pistols and oversized combat knives augmented with disruption fields. They also have enlarged shoulder pads to act as shields in melee. They are infiltration and close combat specialists.(p231)
Hmmm. Bigger shoulder pads with missile launchers and shields are certainly the way to go. What everyone wanted, I assume.
Next iteration of marines: Primaris Ultimas- just giant walking shoulder pads.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-06-2017, 07:05
Hmmm. Bigger shoulder pads with missile launchers and shields are certainly the way to go. What everyone wanted, I assume.
Next iteration of marines: Primaris Ultimas- just giant walking shoulder pads.

Thanks. I was trying to drink. :)

Cèsar de Quart
15-06-2017, 16:24
Marnie C sure is sore about the whole thing. I notice that Sicarius has once more been left out of the equation in the Tetrarchs that rule Ultramar (why not Pentarchs? There are 5 Tetrarchs are "the Four Rulers", literally).

So... will Calgar and Sicarius team up and rebel? Just for the sake of context, I think this will never happen (or should never happen). Marines vs Marines is something very, very strong, Heresy-strong.

I insist, Guilliman should have never had come to Terra so easily. His story should have been one of conflict between his duty (guard the EMperor and the Imperium) and his gut (I need to fix this crap! I can do better!). Being told by the High Lords to stay put and fight Orks or Tyranids, he calls for a council of Marines to get help, the High Lords get very suspicious and send Inquisitors, the Big I's discover that he's hiding something (the Primarines) and send word to the High Lords... the whole tangle of politics becomes a mess when Guilliman decides to go to Terra with the Ultramarines and the High Lords forbid him to enter the Segmentum Solar... he is almost at war, he understands Horus but he also has to protect the Emperor and his Imperium... and then the Cicatrix falls down on the Galaxy and the Black Legion attacks Terra. The High Lords ask for help, Guilliman saves the day, and then takes over. Military coup.

Rogue Star
16-06-2017, 14:19
I insist, Guilliman should have never had come to Terra so easily. His story should have been one of conflict between his duty (guard the EMperor and the Imperium) and his gut (I need to fix this crap! I can do better!). Being told by the High Lords to stay put and fight Orks or Tyranids, he calls for a council of Marines to get help, the High Lords get very suspicious and send Inquisitors, the Big I's discover that he's hiding something (the Primarines) and send word to the High Lords... the whole tangle of politics becomes a mess when Guilliman decides to go to Terra with the Ultramarines and the High Lords forbid him to enter the Segmentum Solar... he is almost at war, he understands Horus but he also has to protect the Emperor and his Imperium... and then the Cicatrix falls down on the Galaxy and the Black Legion attacks Terra. The High Lords ask for help, Guilliman saves the day, and then takes over. Military coup.

I still don't understand this need for a military coup that keeps popping up. Guilliman created the Senatorum Imperialis, so while he may not have any connection to it's current holders, the power of their status is entirely from him. The position of Lord Commander of the Imperium, first held by Roboute Guilliman, continued after his wounding at the hands of Fulgrim. There were several holders of the title, often simply referred to as "Lord Guilliman" in the Primarch's honor, until at least mid-M32. During dire circumstances of almost continual conflict, even Astartes have assumed it, such as during the War of the Beast and The Beheading, when the successive Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists - Koorland and Maximus Thane - reigned as Lord Commander of the Imperium The Lord Commander served as the Chairman of the Senatorum.

If the Imperium wasn't currently besieged by the forces of the Ruinous Powers yes, I'd understand this "Guilliman is waltzing in and taking power" everyone seems to resent without Imperial politicking being involved... but in this case, the Lord Commander of the Imperium should be active, the situation calls for it, and if you can find a mortal or astartes warrior superior than a Primarch, I'm sure you can ask Guilliman to stand down...

Cèsar de Quart
17-06-2017, 09:12
I still don't understand this need for a military coup that keeps popping up. Guilliman created the Senatorum Imperialis, so while he may not have any connection to it's current holders, the power of their status is entirely from him. The position of Lord Commander of the Imperium, first held by Roboute Guilliman, continued after his wounding at the hands of Fulgrim. There were several holders of the title, often simply referred to as "Lord Guilliman" in the Primarch's honor, until at least mid-M32. During dire circumstances of almost continual conflict, even Astartes have assumed it, such as during the War of the Beast and The Beheading, when the successive Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists - Koorland and Maximus Thane - reigned as Lord Commander of the Imperium The Lord Commander served as the Chairman of the Senatorum.

If the Imperium wasn't currently besieged by the forces of the Ruinous Powers yes, I'd understand this "Guilliman is waltzing in and taking power" everyone seems to resent without Imperial politicking being involved... but in this case, the Lord Commander of the Imperium should be active, the situation calls for it, and if you can find a mortal or astartes warrior superior than a Primarch, I'm sure you can ask Guilliman to stand down...

Because the 40k setting DEMANDS it. The Imperium has always been presented to us in a very original way (for today's standards; it was relatively common trope in "quality" --read: non soap-opera-- fantasy and sci-fi in the 60's and 70's); rarely do you see a world built on the pillars GW based their 40k universe. 40k began as a gritty dark future trope universe, with rogue traders, decadent cultures and ignorant populations. It was basically a mix of Dune, Judge Dredd and Starship Troopers. The worst future imaginable where Mankind is still alive and widespread. An answer to Star Trek's optimistic vision of the future.

And, as a way to alienate the audience from the gargantuan, monstrous Imperium, we never knew who ruled over it. We knew that a dead Jesus-emperor sat on a throne on Earth (an Earth out of a nightmare) and that he somehow still guided the destinies of Man, but he did not "rule", a council of faceless bureaucrats, noblemen and generic important people were in charge. We never knew their names, never saw their faces, never learned their motives. We don't know if they rule in harmony, if they backstab each other, if they manoeuver just for the sake of influence, if they actually rule or the Imperium runs on its own inertia... we see the Imperial citizen's point of view, the Guardsman version of the tale. "There is an Emperor who saved us long ago, now the High Lords rule in his stead, in harmony". That's it.

And that was kind of genius. It made the setting interesting and made it look complex without having to explain much. These High Lords of Terra are not known to us because they are meant to REPRESENT, to EMBODY the Imperium and the parts of it they control ("control" may be a strong word). These High Lords have done things this way for millennia. This is the way the Imperum works. Now, for Guilliman to come back and take control, the situation must be very extaordinary, otherwise the faceless High Lords will direct the machinery of the State against Guilliman. They don't want to lose control, and they have a right to doubt this Guilliman wannabee. Who knows if it's a trap, a daemon, an imposter?

I mean, sure it makes sense that the Imperium is besieged and Guilliman becomes ruler because it's necessary... but it's too easy. This change, for the Imperium to go from "faceless machinery of hellish bureaucracy" to "Guilliman is the face of reason", is so deep and so central to the 40k essence (I don't think GW really understands it), that it needed to change amidst very strong conflict and drama. It didn't happen and that was a bummer.

For the TL-DR crowd: two things:

1- The High Lords being faceless bureaucrats makes the Imperium seem a more hellish and impersonal place. GRIMDARK!

2- For Guilliman to change this and become the new face of the Imperium, we need more drama and more conflict than what we got.

Rogue Star
21-06-2017, 19:09
1- The High Lords being faceless bureaucrats makes the Imperium seem a more hellish and impersonal place. GRIMDARK!

2- For Guilliman to change this and become the new face of the Imperium, we need more drama and more conflict than what we got.

1- The Senatorum Imperialis is still a thing, Guilliman is just the Lord Commander, effectively it's chairman and voice of the Emperor. But he's travelling across a war-torn Imperium, trying desperately to shore up its defences, leaving room for backstabbing and politics. Indeed one of the above points in this thread is that in return for his work/to continue being effective, Belisarius Cawl wants Guilliman to back him for Fabricator-General of Mars...

2- The Imperium literally got split in half, with Chaos spilling out of the Great Rift, which 'flickers' with waves of warp energy along it's edges, which the forces of Chaos ride out, allowing Daemons to appear anywhere, largely unaffected by warp-instability. Terra is used as an example of this, as suddenly a force of Traitor Astartes, Daemons and the like appear there, bypassing the system defences... like suddenly a world-wide "aurora borealis" but with Bloodletters and Khorne Berzerkers emerging from portals to rampage! Essentially, every planet in the Imperium just became the front line...

And that's ignoring the half of the Imperium on the opposite side from Terra, doesn't have the Astronomicon...

Voltaire
23-06-2017, 08:39
My own takeaways from this are that:-

1) The Old Marines are going to be phased out after becoming obsolete. This also renders every single hero of the Imperium who is a marine a potential casualty in the coming years of the setting which is nice. It adds in some extra grimdark

2) Cawl may start another civil war on Mars. The fact he has more or less defied every single scripture forbidding innovation as dangerous within the Mechanicus will make him the prime target for some kind of assassination by the fabricator generals of Mars. Why he was not declared Heretek sooner is something I hope they explore in books focussed solely on him. He has been my personal favourite character coming out of the whole Dark Imperium.

BramGaunt
25-06-2017, 07:16
Wasn't there another Primarch that tried to meddle with Marine DNA and got his fingers slapped for that transgression?

Rogue Star
27-06-2017, 11:27
Wasn't there another Primarch that tried to meddle with Marine DNA and got his fingers slapped for that transgression?

Only example of a Primarch playing around with the creation of the Space Marines that I can recall was Corax in "Deliverence Lost" and he was given licence to do so by the Emperor. Outside interference tampered with that, rather than any imperial censure from the Emperor.

Cèsar de Quart
27-06-2017, 14:58
I think, Rogue Star, that we are talking about different things here. I'm talking about the essence and the feel of the setting, not the sense of its narrative. 40k has never had a narrative, just a feel and a setting.

Would you put politics and intrigue and economy in The Lord of the Rings? You may, but that's not the point of the story or the setting. It's not a realistic setting, it's just a backdrop that serves a) to tell a mythological tale of adventure which is also a metaphore for WW1, and b) as a scenario for Tolkien to develop his languages. So, yes, you could ask for Aragon's tax policy, or Rohan's crop rotation, or how does Sauron maintain thousands of orcs in a land that's basically rock and ash. You could have an answer to those things, but that would be missing the point, which is: LOTR is not supposed to include all those things. It's a myth, a legend, and follows very, very closely the conventions, languange and style of myths like Beowulf and the Germanic mythological cicles.

You would, however, talk about all of those things in Game of Thrones (to put a popular example), because that's what's all about: the effects of a mythological or legendary story, of fantasy topics, on common people and a realistic world.

Is the 40k universe realistic? Not at all. It was all worked up from the bottom up to appear oppressive, depressing, miserable, hopeless and utterly disgusting in an imaginative and exotic way. Also, it followed another thing GW liked a lot: references to history and pop culture. That's why Cadians look like WW2 soldiers mixed in with Starship Troopers, why Catachans look like Americans in Vietnam, or why GW made an IG regiment that was a homage to the movie Zulu (the Praetorian Guard). What a bunch of history buffs!

Anything that moves away from this oppressive carelessness of the universe is a step on the wrong direction, where the setting is concerned. That's why having the High Lords as anonymous figures came in handy. The Galaxy is a harsh place... and no one is to blame.


1- The Senatorum Imperialis is still a thing, Guilliman is just the Lord Commander, effectively it's chairman and voice of the Emperor. But he's travelling across a war-torn Imperium, trying desperately to shore up its defences, leaving room for backstabbing and politics. Indeed one of the above points in this thread is that in return for his work/to continue being effective, Belisarius Cawl wants Guilliman to back him for Fabricator-General of Mars...

Now, however, Guilliman is now the face of the Imperium, and all that happens to it is, by extrapolation, his fault, it's on his watch that millions die every day because of poor standards of living, that Mankind is jaw-deep in mysticism, mystery and superstition, etc etc.

He has to improve upon the Imperium and make the Galaxy a better place (that's what he was always all about, better governance), therefore waving away the GRIMDARK, which is what many of us found appealing about the setting.

Or, he has to accept the GRIMDARK, which GW knows can't loose, and be broken inside. Either Guilliman becomes a bitter monster by this choice, or he becomes an incoherent force for good in a mean Galaxy he doesn't want to change. Which makes no sense, but it's the easier way out of the mess GW has created; my cents go to the last one being the one GW uses in the end.


2- The Imperium literally got split in half, with Chaos spilling out of the Great Rift, which 'flickers' with waves of warp energy along it's edges, which the forces of Chaos ride out, allowing Daemons to appear anywhere, largely unaffected by warp-instability. Terra is used as an example of this, as suddenly a force of Traitor Astartes, Daemons and the like appear there, bypassing the system defences... like suddenly a world-wide "aurora borealis" but with Bloodletters and Khorne Berzerkers emerging from portals to rampage! Essentially, every planet in the Imperium just became the front line...

And that's ignoring the half of the Imperium on the opposite side from Terra, doesn't have the Astronomicon...

I meant personal drama. All those lights and thunders and explosions are meaningless because they're happening to people we don't know.

GW is again commiting the same mistake they did with the new Fantasy setting: let's make the awesome Stormcast Eternals before we have any idea what's their world like. What are we fighting for? Who lives in these cities and where do we come from? Why do I care? All very fuzzy and impersonal, and anyone who has ever worked in worldbuilding knows that a personal connection is the most important thing.

A two-hour-long movie about a war means nothing if we're not invested in the characters or the action, and we don't get invested unless we are shown real people, real stakes and real effects. Cadia fell too quick. Guilliman came back too fast and got to the top too easily. The Ynnari were supposed to be a big deal but now are up to... who knows? Mean while, the world is breaking up, planets are being swallowed by the thousands... but not a single human connection there.

In sum, GW wants to have the goody hero leading the light side, and wants to keep the grimdark setting at the same time. I say you can't have it both ways, it doesn't work. Cognitive dissonance. This is me trying to rationalise why the old 40k setting felt so natural why the new one feels so odd and out of place. I think it boils down to this: cognitive dissonance. The Imperium can't be led by Superman and still be the most depressing place to live in human history.

Fangschrecken
01-07-2017, 17:18
I meant personal drama. All those lights and thunders and explosions are meaningless because they're happening to people we don't know.

GW is again commiting the same mistake they did with the new Fantasy setting: let's make the awesome Stormcast Eternals before we have any idea what's their world like. What are we fighting for? Who lives in these cities and where do we come from? Why do I care? All very fuzzy and impersonal, and anyone who has ever worked in worldbuilding knows that a personal connection is the most important thing.

A two-hour-long movie about a war means nothing if we're not invested in the characters or the action, and we don't get invested unless we are shown real people, real stakes and real effects. Cadia fell too quick. Guilliman came back too fast and got to the top too easily. The Ynnari were supposed to be a big deal but now are up to... who knows? Mean while, the world is breaking up, planets are being swallowed by the thousands... but not a single human connection there.

In sum, GW wants to have the goody hero leading the light side, and wants to keep the grimdark setting at the same time. I say you can't have it both ways, it doesn't work. Cognitive dissonance. This is me trying to rationalise why the old 40k setting felt so natural why the new one feels so odd and out of place. I think it boils down to this: cognitive dissonance. The Imperium can't be led by Superman and still be the most depressing place to live in human history.

You've hit it on the head for me. It's actually part of the reason I can't stand most of the DC movies (or transformers), it ends up being destruction for the sake of destruction. Countless worlds destroyed or swallowed by the warp. Why do I care? It just ends up being confusing and meaningless.
What made the old setting (in Fantasy and 40K) great, is the little stories of horror and heroism that let you get a up close and personal feel for the world, and that was coupled with just enough overall background to give you a framework. Now all I see is framework with only a little inside.
I admit, that we will have to give it a chance and see how they work with it. Whether there will be those tales of the dark milenium that add flavor to the setting and let us know that worlds are not just swallowed by the warp but that men and marines fought and died to save them.

Razios
02-07-2017, 05:31
I think, Rogue Star, that we are talking about different things here. I'm talking about the essence and the feel of the setting, not the sense of its narrative. 40k has never had a narrative, just a feel and a setting.

Would you put politics and intrigue and economy in The Lord of the Rings? You may, but that's not the point of the story or the setting. It's not a realistic setting, it's just a backdrop that serves a) to tell a mythological tale of adventure which is also a metaphore for WW1, and b) as a scenario for Tolkien to develop his languages. So, yes, you could ask for Aragon's tax policy, or Rohan's crop rotation, or how does Sauron maintain thousands of orcs in a land that's basically rock and ash. You could have an answer to those things, but that would be missing the point, which is: LOTR is not supposed to include all those things. It's a myth, a legend, and follows very, very closely the conventions, languange and style of myths like Beowulf and the Germanic mythological cicles.

You would, however, talk about all of those things in Game of Thrones (to put a popular example), because that's what's all about: the effects of a mythological or legendary story, of fantasy topics, on common people and a realistic world.

Is the 40k universe realistic? Not at all. It was all worked up from the bottom up to appear oppressive, depressing, miserable, hopeless and utterly disgusting in an imaginative and exotic way. Also, it followed another thing GW liked a lot: references to history and pop culture. That's why Cadians look like WW2 soldiers mixed in with Starship Troopers, why Catachans look like Americans in Vietnam, or why GW made an IG regiment that was a homage to the movie Zulu (the Praetorian Guard). What a bunch of history buffs!

Anything that moves away from this oppressive carelessness of the universe is a step on the wrong direction, where the setting is concerned. That's why having the High Lords as anonymous figures came in handy. The Galaxy is a harsh place... and no one is to blame.



Now, however, Guilliman is now the face of the Imperium, and all that happens to it is, by extrapolation, his fault, it's on his watch that millions die every day because of poor standards of living, that Mankind is jaw-deep in mysticism, mystery and superstition, etc etc.

He has to improve upon the Imperium and make the Galaxy a better place (that's what he was always all about, better governance), therefore waving away the GRIMDARK, which is what many of us found appealing about the setting.

Or, he has to accept the GRIMDARK, which GW knows can't loose, and be broken inside. Either Guilliman becomes a bitter monster by this choice, or he becomes an incoherent force for good in a mean Galaxy he doesn't want to change. Which makes no sense, but it's the easier way out of the mess GW has created; my cents go to the last one being the one GW uses in the end.



I meant personal drama. All those lights and thunders and explosions are meaningless because they're happening to people we don't know.

GW is again commiting the same mistake they did with the new Fantasy setting: let's make the awesome Stormcast Eternals before we have any idea what's their world like. What are we fighting for? Who lives in these cities and where do we come from? Why do I care? All very fuzzy and impersonal, and anyone who has ever worked in worldbuilding knows that a personal connection is the most important thing.

A two-hour-long movie about a war means nothing if we're not invested in the characters or the action, and we don't get invested unless we are shown real people, real stakes and real effects. Cadia fell too quick. Guilliman came back too fast and got to the top too easily. The Ynnari were supposed to be a big deal but now are up to... who knows? Mean while, the world is breaking up, planets are being swallowed by the thousands... but not a single human connection there.

In sum, GW wants to have the goody hero leading the light side, and wants to keep the grimdark setting at the same time. I say you can't have it both ways, it doesn't work. Cognitive dissonance. This is me trying to rationalise why the old 40k setting felt so natural why the new one feels so odd and out of place. I think it boils down to this: cognitive dissonance. The Imperium can't be led by Superman and still be the most depressing place to live in human history.

Except that was the same way with fantasy, they built that conection thansk to hundred of novels and roleplay game that expand a lot into what it means, right now the appeal of Age of sigmar is having a very weird fantasy world in your hands were things as posible wthout being trap into what it should and should not be, hell for me this is what make WHK40 stand waaaay more than fantasy, in that you could put ANYTHING into WHK40 and not feel out of place.

the issue with the setting is that eventually the girmdark were off unlike SOMETHING happen, saying "everything is opresive" mean nothing because is just a state, no something that happen, GW can claim chaos is winning all they want but unless something happen that break the status quo it dosent really reflect on that, which is why the new status quo is good because it FINALLY put the money were the mouth is.

I mean, im the only who remenber the fandom in those days? how people HATE storm of chaos? (or like people call it, the breeze of chaos) for how in the end it was "oh sorry, it dosen matter" for me the real sin of GW is the 5 minutes to midnight trope, the idea there is apocalise RIGHT NOW.....ANY MOMENT NOW GUY I SWEAR.....it become pointless if you dont pull it off.

Also I disagree.....to fast? we have 30 years of yneed doing nothing, with Guillman in stasis and with the same thing pulling off over and over because status quo can be broken, a one point is just enought and for me is now.

Cèsar de Quart
02-07-2017, 11:46
Except that was the same way with fantasy, they built that conection thansk to hundred of novels and roleplay game that expand a lot into what it means, right now the appeal of Age of sigmar is having a very weird fantasy world in your hands were things as posible wthout being trap into what it should and should not be, hell for me this is what make WHK40 stand waaaay more than fantasy, in that you could put ANYTHING into WHK40 and not feel out of place.

I agree with the seconds statement, 40k had the advantadge of a cohesive world that allowed for whatever you wanted, really. Fantasy, however, did not need the hundreds of novels and RPG's, really. Fantasy madea genius move: Let's create a world that's our own, but weird. It had archetypes and stereotypes that helped fill the gaps and make it all sound familiar. Renaissance Germany. Arthurian generic France. Brutish orcs. Arabs out of a Thousand and One Nights. Vampires out of every single vampire fiction ever made (Nosferatu, Strigas, Hammer films...), Undead Egyptians, Italian merchants and mercenaries, Russian-Polish hussars, Vikings, Aztec dinosaurs, Mongol-looking Ogres and a long etcetera of continuous references to our real world and culture, which made the Old World feel very familiar, and therefore, a place to care about.



the issue with the setting is that eventually the girmdark were off unlike SOMETHING happen, saying "everything is opresive" mean nothing because is just a state, no something that happen, GW can claim chaos is winning all they want but unless something happen that break the status quo it dosent really reflect on that, which is why the new status quo is good because it FINALLY put the money were the mouth is.

Here I disagree. A game is not a movie or a book series. A game needs a setting, not a narrative. The setting doesn't need to move. It just needs to inspire, to absorb.

I also don't trust GW these days to pull out a coherent, satisfying narrative. GW was once interested in characters, we've veered away from it for some 15 years and now we're back, but on steroids.


I mean, im the only who remenber the fandom in those days? how people HATE storm of chaos? (or like people call it, the breeze of chaos) for how in the end it was "oh sorry, it dosen matter" for me the real sin of GW is the 5 minutes to midnight trope, the idea there is apocalise RIGHT NOW.....ANY MOMENT NOW GUY I SWEAR.....it become pointless if you dont pull it off.

That's precisely what I mean. GW these days are quite unable to keep track of (or care about) their own lore, and they have corporate commissions that determine which plot points and narrative developments will allout them to introduce or sell more toys. I mean, those Triumvirates that mostly did nothing, except for Guilliman? Pure marketing bullcrap. The Gathering Storm was a poorly written or developed narrative because it was not thought out or developed by writers, but by businessmen.

So yes, the Storm of Chaos was bad in the end, but it was not a bad idea. I liked it while it lasted, I enjoyed reading about the advances and the battle logs. In the end, Gav Thorpe had to write GW out of a mess they didn't know how to solve (Chaos was stopped halfway through if I remember correctly). Same with the Black Crusade. I wish GW had kept on with that trend.


Also I disagree.....to fast? we have 30 years of yneed doing nothing, with Guillman in stasis and with the same thing pulling off over and over because status quo can be broken, a one point is just enought and for me is now.

Don't mistake narrative time with lenght of time. The 40k setting has not lived 30 years in-universe since its inception. I think we've lived in 995-999.M41 since the 2nd Edition. Therefore, a thousand important things happening all in two or three months of 999.M41 is a bit too fast. It was also too fast for our own pace. Events, characters and plot points were not given room to breathe and set in. They appear therefore rushed and awkward.

GW has achieved the second one in a year, which is great. But the first one... not so much. The moment a GW writer, who's nowadays almost always a mercenary, recieves a memo for a book and the memo says "Have X and Y fight. Have Z go to Newrealmia and explore its wonders, present its warriors in detail and heroically because they're the top project of summer sales next year, and introduce plot mysteries 1 and 2"... the writer's freedom to just create good narratives from which good fluff derives... it's lost.

One important plot point from Dark Imperium: Calgar is pissed and feels like crap. He's supposed to have been a paragon of virtue and greatness for the last century. One of the greatest leaders of men around. Now he has insecurity issues. Weird, but ok, if he was human I'd be 100% for it, but being a super marine makes it kinda weird. But ok, let's assume this is what happens. The obvious plot point here is Calgar reacts to these changes, the plot presents the characters with change and choice and opportunity, that's Writing 101. Will Calgar react to these changes? Will he go though change and choices and come out the other side as better (or worse) than before? This would be narrative, but GW won't use that. It's too risky and too weird. We'll be left with a situation that was hinted, but never resolved and handwaved later possibly. Which will diminish any immersion into future GW storylines, because WE KNOW they won't ever follow up on their own narratives properly. That's bad storytelling, and for that, I prefer setting only, without narrative.

To sum up: metanarratives require a good team of writers who are ingrained in the very fabric of the company and the game (which is why some new games have very good metanarratives, because the same game enthusiasts and designers are working on the narrative as well), and they require good rapport with the players.

+++

Let's not forget, also, that whenever we want we can say "screw GW" and have our own headcannon, which is what I do. Since I have nothing else to do, I have my own version of the Gathering Storm, which may not satisfy many, but satisfies myself. So, let's not make much of a fuss out of the storyline itself. I criticize mostly that GW seems to not use great plot points that their own ideas have put forht, and prefers to explore boring, overdone ones (like Guilliman making a summer voyage through the Warp with his pals, mostly fighting daemons... I mean, it's boring).

Razios
03-07-2017, 20:51
I agree with the seconds statement, 40k had the advantadge of a cohesive world that allowed for whatever you wanted, really. Fantasy, however, did not need the hundreds of novels and RPG's, really. Fantasy madea genius move: Let's create a world that's our own, but weird. It had archetypes and stereotypes that helped fill the gaps and make it all sound familiar. Renaissance Germany. Arthurian generic France. Brutish orcs. Arabs out of a Thousand and One Nights. Vampires out of every single vampire fiction ever made (Nosferatu, Strigas, Hammer films...), Undead Egyptians, Italian merchants and mercenaries, Russian-Polish hussars, Vikings, Aztec dinosaurs, Mongol-looking Ogres and a long etcetera of continuous references to our real world and culture, which made the Old World feel very familiar, and therefore, a place to care about.

Yes, fantasy really need this in order to feel the world, the empire is just a regular good human faction in the codex or supplement, is the novels and RPG that give them the feel og something that atter those archetypes means nothing except poorly thought concept....except when they interact with each other, this is why campains feel so small because eventually the world become to little for what GW wanted to do, in this is what AoS want from WHK40



Here I disagree. A game is not a movie or a book series. A game needs a setting, not a narrative. The setting doesn't need to move. It just needs to inspire, to absorb.

and to absorb it also need to move and evolve somethines that is need with a narrative, otherwise it grow stale, people wanted cadai to fall and the same time storm of chaos to have a impact, otherwise it feel like little box you cant play



That's precisely what I mean. GW these days are quite unable to keep track of (or care about) their own lore, and they have corporate commissions that determine which plot points and narrative developments will allout them to introduce or sell more toys. I mean, those Triumvirates that mostly did nothing, except for Guilliman? Pure marketing bullcrap. The Gathering Storm was a poorly written or developed narrative because it was not thought out or developed by writers, but by businessmen.

I always feel weary about this stament because it feel it put the past in some pedestal, the old "before they have heart and now they dont" they focus on guillman becuase it was about him rather than some side chararter, aso GW is always about sell more toys, this is usually the whole "autor care when I said they care"


So yes, the Storm of Chaos was bad in the end, but it was not a bad idea. I liked it while it lasted, I enjoyed reading about the advances and the battle logs. In the end, Gav Thorpe had to write GW out of a mess they didn't know how to solve (Chaos was stopped halfway through if I remember correctly). Same with the Black Crusade. I wish GW had kept on with that trend.

Storm of chaos suffer from two problems: the first one is what all DM fears: that not matter how well thougt their plans are, they will be crush by players(in case you wonder, yeah they get stuck in the starting zone and GW have to bail them out and they chose Grimmor to beat archeron because.....dunno) and second one is that storm of chaos is pretty much end times, is the culmination of a lot of plot points into one moment and is just two much, which is tie to the whole "5 minutes to midnight" if you create and apocalipse eventually you have to show it, compare to world of darkness who for all their faults they bring the gehenna and day of judgment.


Don't mistake narrative time with lenght of time. The 40k setting has not lived 30 years in-universe since its inception. I think we've lived in 995-999.M41 since the 2nd Edition. Therefore, a thousand important things happening all in two or three months of 999.M41 is a bit too fast. It was also too fast for our own pace. Events, characters and plot points were not given room to breathe and set in. They appear therefore rushed and awkward.

it depend, there is things and there is THINGS, what event matter in the overall setting and narrative? much of them are just fluff in order to fill time, so far GW are putting events here and there and time will time is they have time to fill the gaps, something at least Fantasy did in the end.


GW has achieved the second one in a year, which is great. But the first one... not so much. The moment a GW writer, who's nowadays almost always a mercenary, recieves a memo for a book and the memo says "Have X and Y fight. Have Z go to Newrealmia and explore its wonders, present its warriors in detail and heroically because they're the top project of summer sales next year, and introduce plot mysteries 1 and 2"... the writer's freedom to just create good narratives from which good fluff derives... it's lost.

And I wonder....where in the warp you get that? im surprise people kept saying this and from most part i sound like fanon to explain things some fans didnt like at all, that is why I usually skip this because it sound rationalization for what one can consider bad writing


One important plot point from Dark Imperium: Calgar is pissed and feels like crap. He's supposed to have been a paragon of virtue and greatness for the last century. One of the greatest leaders of men around. Now he has insecurity issues. Weird, but ok, if he was human I'd be 100% for it, but being a super marine makes it kinda weird. But ok, let's assume this is what happens. The obvious plot point here is Calgar reacts to these changes, the plot presents the characters with change and choice and opportunity, that's Writing 101. Will Calgar react to these changes? Will he go though change and choices and come out the other side as better (or worse) than before? This would be narrative, but GW won't use that. It's too risky and too weird. We'll be left with a situation that was hinted, but never resolved and handwaved later possibly. Which will diminish any immersion into future GW storylines, because WE KNOW they won't ever follow up on their own narratives properly. That's bad storytelling, and for that, I prefer setting only, without narrative.

And finally something I can follow on and let see: why is weird to Calgar feel pissed? it feel a mis conception he cant just because he is space marines, Dante who is another inspiring figure feel tired of all the fighting and living so long but he put the act for the people and their own primarch act like insecure men on occasions, this is assuming one thing and them acting on that asumption, it feels....odd.

as for that being a narrative...not really, that is just dropping a point or opinion of a character, whatever he act on them or not is what it means a narrative, otherwise people will have to act in every opinion they have, so far Calgar is not reacting well to all this.

Now, whatever he should have a narrative...that is another thing enterely.

Cèsar de Quart
12-10-2017, 22:41
and to absorb it also need to move and evolve somethines that is need with a narrative, otherwise it grow stale, people wanted cadai to fall and the same time storm of chaos to have a impact, otherwise it feel like little box you cant play

Well, that may be your impression. To me, killing the Old World meant that there was no point in developing further my Imperial city, knowing that no matter what, they'd all die. As I said, you defend a narrative, but I defend a setting.



I always feel weary about this stament because it feel it put the past in some pedestal, the old "before they have heart and now they dont" they focus on guillman becuase it was about him rather than some side chararter, aso GW is always about sell more toys, this is usually the whole "autor care when I said they care"

The problem is that 40k used to be about the armies and the wars, not about the characters. They did have a heart before, back in the 80's when they were a small company filled with history and fantasy enthusiasts. Now GW is about selling toys, which is fine, I guess. But the effect of this can be felt everywhere, fluff included.


Much of them are just fluff in order to fill time, so far GW are putting events here and there and time will time is they have time to fill the gaps, something at least Fantasy did in the end.

Which furthers my point: GW is creating fluff as an afterthought, as a side effect of sales. Which, again, I understand. That doesn't mean I like it. It should be quality fluff, but of late, it's not.


And I wonder....where in the warp you get that? im surprise people kept saying this and from most part i sound like fanon to explain things some fans didnt like at all, that is why I usually skip this because it sound rationalization for what one can consider bad writing

I remember an interview with Gav Thorpe where he spoke about his last novels, and he talked about getting memos with key plot points, people and places he had to visit and show, or fights he had to include. I can't find it now but it shouldn't be difficult to find. Maybe his writing blog. Anyway, bad writing is bad writing, sure.




And finally something I can follow on and let see: why is weird to Calgar feel pissed? it feel a mis conception he cant just because he is space marines, Dante who is another inspiring figure feel tired of all the fighting and living so long but he put the act for the people and their own primarch act like insecure men on occasions, this is assuming one thing and them acting on that asumption, it feels....odd.
.

I guess you're right. We're used to seeing marines always so stoic and unemotional that every time one has a human response to a situation, we imagine he's just on the brink of falling to Chaos.