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View Full Version : Orks are in desperate need of depth



TheSaylesMan
08-11-2017, 23:26
I love Orks. Orks are my first love in 40k. I started collecting them back in 3rd edition and I have been on and off ever since. There's just this thing that I have noticed over time that's making me malcontent. Orks are presented as a 'completed' culture. "For them the great struggle is won," after all. Orks are the way they have always been and will continue to be that forever. This stuff with The Beast was welcome in that it showed Orks advancing but its just not enough.

Mostly my problem has to do with the Klans. Most other factions have lots of interesting sub-factions with their own place in the universe, goals and agendas. That all ultimately boils down to a way to play their faction on the table top but everybody else got a little bit of fluff surrounding that which has built up over time. We've got all these Marine books out there to represent factions that were originally there just for a paint scheme and an iconic playstyle. Orks got the shaft on that. Who are the Deff Skullz? Why they are Orks that have painted themselves blue and love to steal things. Where do they come from? What are their goals? Who leads them? They aren't led. Their goals are to steal things and they hold no territory. All you need to be a Deff Skull is be an Ork, paint yourself blue and call yourself a Deff Skull. Klans are essentially just the Ork's favorite football teams. Famous Orks can claim allegiance to them but its just plain shallow. We need to break away from the Klan as the be all end all of the face of the Orks. I don't want to get rid of them but they are about the dullest, blandest pieces of fluff that have ever existed.

Does anyone else have a desire to see the books organize Orks by their Empire or Waaagh than by Klan? The Ork Empire of Charadon. Waaagh Gorgutz. Anything. Klan is just how they fight, not why they fight.

Fangschrecken
09-11-2017, 02:06
All of the new codexes give special rules to different chapters, and sub factions, so I strongly believe the Orks will get that too when GW gets around to releasing their codex.

Rogue Star
09-11-2017, 07:53
Klan is just how they fight, not why they fight.

True but you've got to leave something to the players. They don't need to be told everything. Why do the Deff Skullz fight? Well you could say same as any other Orks, because that's what they where designed to do, and you could say that's pretty shallow, but it's not really more in-depth than the setting's golden boys, the Space Marines; why do the Ultramarines fight? To defend the Imperium. Why do the Blood Angels fight? To defend the Imperium. The fact one comes from the Eastern Fringe an the empire of Ultramar, and the other near the galactic core and is based on a barren moon, won't really impact their fighting style. It's the player's choice to decide, my Ultramarines are hunting a Tyranid splinter force, seeking retribution for the Battle of Macragge, or that the Blood Angel Captain is seeking atonement for losing a Chapter relic, etc.

Also, GW has been increasingly moving away from the idea of "Warzone" level participants, which would include stuff like Ork Empire of Charadon; the Ultramarines took part in the 13th Black Crusade, despite the Cadian Gate being on the opposite side of the galaxy, Tyranids and Tau forces jumping around because otherwise they'd only take part in battles effectively on their doorstep. GW these days wants everyone to be able to fight everyone.

Razios
09-11-2017, 20:08
Also, GW has been increasingly moving away from the idea of "Warzone" level participants, which would include stuff like Ork Empire of Charadon; the Ultramarines took part in the 13th Black Crusade, despite the Cadian Gate being on the opposite side of the galaxy, Tyranids and Tau forces jumping around because otherwise they'd only take part in battles effectively on their doorstep. GW these days wants everyone to be able to fight everyone.

The lost sphere of the tau in the new fluff soport this and I think why: one of the biggest mistake in fantasy is being very "warzone" making some fight very painfull to create, the same in WH40K with the tau, hell now even terra can be atack any moment now.

the message is clear: nowhere is safe.

Now that being said, the problem with the orks is that they are the comic relief and give them more depth can ruin that, the beast is good showing what they can do, let hope they can expand of that later.

TheSaylesMan
10-11-2017, 02:36
True but you've got to leave something to the players. They don't need to be told everything. Why do the Deff Skullz fight? Well you could say same as any other Orks, because that's what they where designed to do, and you could say that's pretty shallow, but it's not really more in-depth than the setting's golden boys, the Space Marines; why do the Ultramarines fight? To defend the Imperium. Why do the Blood Angels fight? To defend the Imperium. The fact one comes from the Eastern Fringe an the empire of Ultramar, and the other near the galactic core and is based on a barren moon, won't really impact their fighting style. It's the player's choice to decide, my Ultramarines are hunting a Tyranid splinter force, seeking retribution for the Battle of Macragge, or that the Blood Angel Captain is seeking atonement for losing a Chapter relic, etc.

Also, GW has been increasingly moving away from the idea of "Warzone" level participants, which would include stuff like Ork Empire of Charadon; the Ultramarines took part in the 13th Black Crusade, despite the Cadian Gate being on the opposite side of the galaxy, Tyranids and Tau forces jumping around because otherwise they'd only take part in battles effectively on their doorstep. GW these days wants everyone to be able to fight everyone.

You are severely underselling the Chapters there. They all have history, culture, homelands, allies and enemies. Blood Angels did things and they continue to do things because of their legacy. By their very nature, the Klans cannot have a legacy. All they are is a set of colors and a desire to fight in a certain way. They can be put on and taken off as they see fit. The empires and the Waaagh's are the perfect frame work in which GW can have their cake and eat it too with everybody fighting everywhere. Empire's launch Waaagh's. They pop into the Warp and then pop out somewhere in the galaxy with little rhyme or reason. So you start with a history and a culture from an astrographic region and then the player can have their personal Warboss be from those places and muster a Waaagh all their own.

Perhaps I'm just noticing the glaring contradictions in Orkish theme these days. They are wildly individualistic with scratch built tools and yet they come in mono-skin-toned masses with drab clothing. Each Mek is a mad scientist with a list of triumphs, follies and works of genius under their belt and yet they are literally a genetic caste that is just pulling schematics out of their subconscious. Nothing is standardized so Orks are supposed to be wildly unpredictable and yet they are actually so tactically limited that the entire scope of their society has stratified all kind of combat into one of a simple list of types based on Klans. I swear one of these days I'm going to write my own take on 'Ere We Go! and make sense of this.

Rogue Star
10-11-2017, 03:40
You are severely underselling the Chapters there. They all have history, culture, homelands, allies and enemies.

True but Orks do not care about such things. The Orks of the Charadon Empire will just as happily jump into a Space Hulk and let it take them... Gork (or Mork) only knows where, and hopefully fight. Whatever connection they had to the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon, will be lost. He's light-years and decades if not centuries away, the second they emerge in realspace and find a place to set up, they're a new faction, with a new Warlord taking over. You could say the Orks of Charadon, following the Arch-Arsonist, live in solar system with a large, highly radioactive sun (the Eye of Gork/Mork) which burns the surface, and inspires them to burn everything... meaning the Evil Sunz are basically the order of the day, vehicles needed to cross Charadon's scorching surface, and flame-weapons as the Orks imitate the decree of their Gods' watching them...

But the second Orks from this empire board a Space Hulk, get chewed up and spat out by the warp, they might crash on a tectonically unstable world used by the Adeptus Mechanicus to harvest minerals. After several clashes, which Snakebite Wyrdboyz psychic shenanigans result in an eruption that devastates and drives off the Mechanicus... these Orks now refer to themselves as "Da Brimstonez" tribe, raiding nearby sectors, captives taken as slaves are often tossed into the volcanoe (which is the Ork God's fury incarnate) and they often use scar-branding, daub themselves in ash and launch the "Ashen/Brimstone Waaagh!" several centuries later...

The Clans are the only part of Ork culture which turns up anywhere, being genetically encoded. Ideas for Waaaghs!, paint schemes for them, etc are as vast as the players and collectors can devise.

It's like the Codex Astartes: you'll get differences, but there needs to be a core to work from, otherwise you can literally justify anything...

Fangschrecken
11-11-2017, 15:13
I always reckoned that Orks we're largely based on cults of personality; meaning a waaaagh will form whenever some Nob or Warboss convinces enough Orks that he knows about a good fight and promises to take them there. If their hulk pops out by an sparsely populated agri-world they'll off him, and squabble until someone else takes charge and leads them back into the warp to find a proper fight.

TheSaylesMan
16-11-2017, 20:46
True but Orks do not care about such things. The Orks of the Charadon Empire will just as happily jump into a Space Hulk and let it take them... Gork (or Mork) only knows where, and hopefully fight. Whatever connection they had to the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon, will be lost. He's light-years and decades if not centuries away, the second they emerge in realspace and find a place to set up, they're a new faction, with a new Warlord taking over. You could say the Orks of Charadon, following the Arch-Arsonist, live in solar system with a large, highly radioactive sun (the Eye of Gork/Mork) which burns the surface, and inspires them to burn everything... meaning the Evil Sunz are basically the order of the day, vehicles needed to cross Charadon's scorching surface, and flame-weapons as the Orks imitate the decree of their Gods' watching them...

But the second Orks from this empire board a Space Hulk, get chewed up and spat out by the warp, they might crash on a tectonically unstable world used by the Adeptus Mechanicus to harvest minerals. After several clashes, which Snakebite Wyrdboyz psychic shenanigans result in an eruption that devastates and drives off the Mechanicus... these Orks now refer to themselves as "Da Brimstonez" tribe, raiding nearby sectors, captives taken as slaves are often tossed into the volcanoe (which is the Ork God's fury incarnate) and they often use scar-branding, daub themselves in ash and launch the "Ashen/Brimstone Waaagh!" several centuries later...

You are completely ignoring the individual Orks. They are people too. They have wants, beliefs, habits. Ways that they learned to do things. The fact that Snakebitez exist at all with their "the old ways are the best ways" mentality proves this! An Ork will not shed its entire lived experience because it winds up in a different place with a different circumstance. All Orks have ways they believe things should be done. Its how you get the arguments and fights about what is or is not Orky. You might be able to argue that isolated spawnings of Orks from those marooned Charadon Orks would develop their own culture independent of anything but they will meet eventually and the Charadon Orks have the tech, age, size, language and experience to impose their definition of Orky onto the Yoofs. Orks do learn behaviors so their environment will change them but its just layered on top of the old stuff.


The Clans are the only part of Ork culture which turns up anywhere, being genetically encoded. Ideas for Waaaghs!, paint schemes for them, etc are as vast as the players and collectors can devise.

And this particular sentence I find repugnant. The faction that is supposed to represent unchecked id and wild individuality is bound by genetically encoded memories right down to their day to day lives? It completely defeats the purpose of Orks! Mekz having a genetic predisposition towards mechanical engineering is fine. All Mekz just doing the best they can with the materials they have to recreate devices encoded on their DNA? They stop being scientists and start being living cornucopia machines. They wouldn't invent things, they would just copy things they were programmed to copy! The idea that the Klans are genetically hard wired reduces Orks into automatons just as mindless as any Tyranid organism.

Kulture, the Waaagh, the Klans, all of it. Its so much more interesting if its a common emergent structure that is so similar across the galaxy because of the biological realities of Orkkind than if it is some genetic imperial mandate pressed upon them by some long dead creators. Orks should be ambition and rebellion against their superiors and the freedom to choose what they want to be and be the best at it!

Rogue Star
17-11-2017, 12:26
You might be able to argue that isolated spawnings of Orks from those marooned Charadon Orks would develop their own culture independent of anything but they will meet eventually and the Charadon Orks have the tech, age, size, language and experience to impose their definition of Orky onto the Yoofs. Orks do learn behaviors so their environment will change them but its just layered on top of the old stuff.

Undoubtedly, but I fail to see why empire or Waaagh! will impart this more than Klan will... I would like to see your suggestions or examples because I don't think I'm arguing against (at least not strongly) or for potential changes, and neither are you (Clans just taking a backseat). Feel free to sell me on the idea, as currently... it just feels like something a player can very easily do themselves?

Lupe
22-11-2017, 20:23
Undoubtedly, but I fail to see why empire or Waaagh! will impart this more than Klan will... I would like to see your suggestions or examples because I don't think I'm arguing against (at least not strongly) or for potential changes, and neither are you (Clans just taking a backseat). Feel free to sell me on the idea, as currently... it just feels like something a player can very easily do themselves?

A Waaaagh! or an Empire is more akin to a political party, in the sense that you get to choose, and to support and join the one that is more in line with your goals. You can also choose to change that affiliation at any time, when another Waaagh! comes along that's better suited to your interests, or when your current Waaaagh! fails to deliver.
A Klan -on the other hand - is more akin to a craftsman's guild, in the sense that you earn your membership based on your actual experience, based on the specific skillset you've learned, and based on who you've done your apprenticeship under. And, you're sort of locked into -or at least heavily pressuerd into - a particular Klan since your birth, much like in medieval times, your trade was pressured onto you, based on what your father's craft was, and what your father's father's craft was.

Makes sense?

Cèsar de Quart
23-11-2017, 18:44
Maybe we've been Ork-cist for a very long time. We tend to see Orks as a killing force with fun rules and a very special force of will that makes red things go faster. I agree too, Orks need some more depth and a new set of fluff.

I know GW is no longer on the "custom rules" game, but Ork rules and players would benefit greatly, both fluff-wise and game-wise, from:

1- Create your own warboss rules! Remember the "create your own chapter" kit? That was awesome! I've always seen Orks as personality cult-driven, as Fangschrecken says, while I envisioned Klans more like genetically-embedded characteristics, more than actual cultures or legacies.

2- Define Klans. Are they geographic? Are they cultural? Genetic? Mnemotic? Mimetic, and other ics?

With 1 and 2 we can add depth to Orks. Maybe the Arch-Arsonist has attracted a myriad of Klans, or maybe just two or three. Maybe the Arch-Maniac of Calverna is very monothematic. Maybe we can bring the Gretchin Revolutionary Commitee back to life.

Maybe I can make the rules for my Kommodork from Torktuga and finally have an excuse to buy the AoS Megaboss and convert it with a mechanical arm, a big autocannon and a nice pirater hat.

Rogue Star
24-11-2017, 10:32
A Waaaagh! or an Empire is more akin to a political party, in the sense that you get to choose, and to support and join the one that is more in line with your goals. You can also choose to change that affiliation at any time, when another Waaagh! comes along that's better suited to your interests, or when your current Waaaagh! fails to deliver.
A Klan -on the other hand - is more akin to a craftsman's guild, in the sense that you earn your membership based on your actual experience, based on the specific skillset you've learned, and based on who you've done your apprenticeship under. And, you're sort of locked into -or at least heavily pressuerd into - a particular Klan since your birth, much like in medieval times, your trade was pressured onto you, based on what your father's craft was, and what your father's father's craft was.

Makes sense?

Oh I didn't mean I don't grasp the difference between a group you're raised amongst compared to joining a faction you share an affinity with... I meant, in lore terms, what would making the Orks affiliations geographic gain them?

Let's compare it to the Eldar Craftworlds, we know they all hail from different craftworlds... but does that really provide enough reason for them to be different? GW clearly didn't think so, since Iyanden required an event to make them what they are (Hive Fleet Kraken), with ghost-warriors and wraith constructs making up a large part of their forces... the others don't make a lot of sense without development either; why is Saim-hann more 'barbaric'? Sure we know they are, but not why... did they suffer terrible losses fleeing the Fall, and recruit heavily from the Exodites? Why is Biel-tann more militaristic? Religious reasons? Is it because Khaine, as the last surviving god of the Old Pantheon (excluding Chegorach) is a war deity, or are they defending a region of colonies to see it expand as a way to remake the Aeldari Empire?

If we include the Ork Empire of Charadon, Octarius, Dregruk, etc, what do they provide that the Clans don't?

I'm more than happy to entertain the idea, but so far it feels like "Clans aren't very good, we should replace them", to which my answer is "Okay, but with what?".

If, and this is how it sounds to me, if incorrect my apologies, if we're justing saying the "Deff Skullz" Clan are a group of Orks from say, the galactic north-east that control this, this and this world, their capital being a former Imperial Forgeworld, and after generations of looting the tech, they've become adept at it, and thus their forces feature lots of Lootas, Looted vehicles, etc... well that's really just saying the Death Skulls are exactly what we know, but detailing a few odd worlds... it isn't anything a player can't do themselves, and doesn't add anything particular compelling to the faction...

Lupe
24-11-2017, 13:58
If we include the Ork Empire of Charadon, Octarius, Dregruk, etc, what do they provide that the Clans don't?

I'm more than happy to entertain the idea, but so far it feels like "Clans aren't very good, we should replace them", to which my answer is "Okay, but with what?".


Actually, I think i failed to actually add the conclusion to my point.

Here's the thing. Empires/Waaghs sort of provide less depth than Klans, if you were to just replace one with the other.

Empires/Waaghs are a lot less permanent, let's say.
First in the fact that their actual lifespan is often directly correlated to the survival of one particular Boss.
But, also in the fact that an individual Boy or Nob or Boss may be affiliated to multiple Waaghs or Emprires throughout their life, often on a whim.

So, if you want to add depth and complexity, you would be looking to define your band in terms of both its Klan of orign, and its current Waagh.
Because a Waaagh will have warbands from all the clans, and joining for all sort of different reasons.

And how would that work ruleswise, for example?
The Klan could define your chapter tactics, while your current Waagh! would give you access to unique stratagems, or powers, or some such.

Rogue Star
12-12-2017, 10:13
The lost sphere of the tau in the new fluff soport this and I think why: one of the biggest mistake in fantasy is being very "warzone" making some fight very painfull to create, the same in WH40K with the tau, hell now even terra can be atack any moment now.

Part of them turned up in the new Codex: Blood Angels;


Bloody Retribution
Hurled across the void by an empyric convulsion, a T’au colonisation fleet begins claiming worlds within the Red Scar. Their efforts are brought to a sudden, violent halt by strike forces of Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers and the Angels Sanguine. The planets of D’sandri and Gendal’s Reach are swiftly reclaimed, and the war spills into the Sevensuns System.

So depending on various factors, we've now got a T'au colony setting up next to the Blood Angels...

Xisor
10-02-2018, 16:47
This reminds me of an issue I had with the Adeptus Mechanicus <Forge World> lore - realistically, its daft to think that a Forgeworld has homogenous benefits.

Indeed, even within a Chapter, one might divide by <Company Type> rather than Chapter.

But, immediately, that exposes the important pieces - the defining part of Mars isn't that it rolls twice on Cantocles or Shoots Twice with it's stratagem - that's all really just abstraction.

Great if accurate, but not a too-serious problem if not exact.

For Orks, I think the opportunity to go with Klans is really cool.

That is: it doesn't matter if the Empire is Charadon or Octarius or some two-teef Waaaagh! into the Intergalactic Void, but the constituent formations of the Waaagh!, (or poxy one-rok "kroosade") at 40k level will be determined by which grouping of Klan is featured, rather than which major Empire they hail from.

Indeed, the only times the "top" tier will really matter is for very specialist units (cref: the Beast, Orkimedes etc), and even then, given the Orks general genetic situational homogeneity (or lack thereof), again - it doesnt *entirely* matter where then root is from?

I'm really keen to see what'll be in the Codex for them. As the OP is right - there is a good deal of depth missing, but I'm not sure it's *because* of the Klans, but that peculiar detail is certainly suggestive of where and why the problem is the way it is.

Rogue Star
19-02-2018, 06:45
I think the current problem is that, while I like in general what GW have done with 8th edition WH40K, they've confused streamlined with homogenous; every faction gets six or so warlord traits, a collection of psyker powers and artifacts specific to them, and a universal army wide rule that affects everything with a particular keyword. It's nice, but doesn't utilize each faction's nature.

I'd love for example if, instead of Stratagems, Orks got "Orky Events", of which half where good cards ('Waaagh!' every charging Ork gets to roll 3D6 and select the highest result, etc), and the other half were bad cards ("Lootin'" - one unit or Orks decide to start scrougin' the best bitz furst. Play this on any unit more than 9" from the enemy. That unit does nothing this turn, etc) which your opponent can spend their pool of stratagem points on, to represent the infighting that goes on, and the Orks inherent barbaric/disorderly nature.

Rogue Star
01-04-2018, 15:05
I think the current problem is that, while I like in general what GW have done with 8th edition WH40K, they've confused streamlined with homogenous; every faction gets six or so warlord traits, a collection of psyker powers and artifacts specific to them, and a universal army wide rule that affects everything with a particular keyword. It's nice, but doesn't utilize each faction's nature.

And just like that, whoever is authoring the new Codex: Drukhari, seems to grasp that the current system wouldn't work for them, and while it may not be perfect, has created a system which allows each pillar of Dark Eldar culture to show through. Just remains to be seen if this is a fluke...

TheSaylesMan
30-04-2018, 00:13
I have been thinking hard about how to express myself on this topic properly and I think that I have come to a decent analogy.

The Ork Klans being the major representation of Ork political structure in 40k is as if the Craftworld Eldar were represented by the Aspect Shrines. I like Aspect Shrines well enough. What Aspect Warriors are, how the behave and how the Shrines operate within the larger structure of the Craftworlds on a cultural, political and religious level is fascinating. However, on all levels whether it be story or mechanics, I do not believe that a single Aspect Shrine is deep enough to serve as a face for an entire faction. Klans, just like Aspect Shrines, are ultimately a choice. There are some mitigating factors to that like the opinion of any individual Ork's Mob, the opinion of their Boss and how many Orks there are of the Klans in their society but still ultimately a choice. Orks are free to choose an unpopular Klan to affiliate with just like any other person can buck convention. Ultimately, Klans are just an opinion on how Orks like to wage war. Combat is a huge part of the Orkish life cycle but not all of it.

Here's another analogy. Let's take these new Primaris Marines. Imagine if they were all made together out of the same Gene-Seed. Then they would get to choose what Chapter they would join based on how they like to fight. The ones that like flame weapons would join the Salamanders and the guys who like the more primitive, savage way of war would become Space Wolves and the ones who like jetpacks would become Raven Guard. Does this sound particularly deep to anybody? Aren't Chapters more than just whether a Space Marine likes jetpacks? Yes they certainly are. Trying to reduce the Chapters to that would be met with outcry by their fanbase. For Orks, that's all the Klans are. A combat doctrine. Don't Orks deserve history, politics, culture, religion and so on with depth just as Space Marines do? I need to reiterate that Orks are people. Which is why I think the Klans as they are presented are terrible and shallow. Expanding the Klans would be nice but that would be like expanding an Aspect Shrine.

Razios
30-04-2018, 17:52
I have been thinking hard about how to express myself on this topic properly and I think that I have come to a decent analogy.

The Ork Klans being the major representation of Ork political structure in 40k is as if the Craftworld Eldar were represented by the Aspect Shrines. I like Aspect Shrines well enough. What Aspect Warriors are, how the behave and how the Shrines operate within the larger structure of the Craftworlds on a cultural, political and religious level is fascinating. However, on all levels whether it be story or mechanics, I do not believe that a single Aspect Shrine is deep enough to serve as a face for an entire faction. Klans, just like Aspect Shrines, are ultimately a choice. There are some mitigating factors to that like the opinion of any individual Ork's Mob, the opinion of their Boss and how many Orks there are of the Klans in their society but still ultimately a choice. Orks are free to choose an unpopular Klan to affiliate with just like any other person can buck convention. Ultimately, Klans are just an opinion on how Orks like to wage war. Combat is a huge part of the Orkish life cycle but not all of it.

Here's another analogy. Let's take these new Primaris Marines. Imagine if they were all made together out of the same Gene-Seed. Then they would get to choose what Chapter they would join based on how they like to fight. The ones that like flame weapons would join the Salamanders and the guys who like the more primitive, savage way of war would become Space Wolves and the ones who like jetpacks would become Raven Guard. Does this sound particularly deep to anybody? Aren't Chapters more than just whether a Space Marine likes jetpacks? Yes they certainly are. Trying to reduce the Chapters to that would be met with outcry by their fanbase. For Orks, that's all the Klans are. A combat doctrine. Don't Orks deserve history, politics, culture, religion and so on with depth just as Space Marines do? I need to reiterate that Orks are people. Which is why I think the Klans as they are presented are terrible and shallow. Expanding the Klans would be nice but that would be like expanding an Aspect Shrine.

I feel that happen to eldar too, I never got the feeling craftworld are diferent aside of color platter and some choices in enemies and that it, for example I always imagine Iyande armour should look more like spiders and bugs to reflect the tyranids and atalnasar should look demonic and so own, eventuall all the craftworld look the same even when they are self contain worlds in it.

TheSaylesMan
01-05-2018, 22:21
I feel that happen to eldar too, I never got the feeling craftworld are diferent aside of color platter and some choices in enemies and that it, for example I always imagine Iyande armour should look more like spiders and bugs to reflect the tyranids and atalnasar should look demonic and so own, eventuall all the craftworld look the same even when they are self contain worlds in it.

A lot of 40k suffers from that. A lot of background elements started off as color schemes and got built on from there. Astartes, Chaos, Guardsmen and Eldar have managed to add depth and nuance to themselves in my opinion.

Hellebore
02-05-2018, 22:40
It is trivially simple to invent difference. GW does it with their space marine of the month.

Each aspect shrine has its own traditions, methods of training and fighting styles. You could easily build an eldar space marine chapter out of each shrine. You just have to to define how different weapons describe a facet of the aspect - the exarchs have access to weaponry that is not standard equipment, so they are obviously training in more than just their signature stuff. Arha and Karandras show just how differently two people can emulate a single aspect, therefore not even shrines on the same craftworld would be the same, let alone on different ones.

Similarly, orks are easily distinguishable. You can go for Klans, you can go for speciation via geographic segregation that means that different parts of the galaxy have different types of ork, or even different parts of the same planet. Each Klan can represent an aspect of that.


It is actually easier to create variation within whole cultures than it is between knightly orders, because you're working with population scales. a force of 1000 dudes is going to be more similar to another force of 1000 dudes than Segmentum obscuras orks are to Tempestus orks.

Rogue Star
04-05-2018, 01:28
True but rules-wise, the difference between an Ultramarine and say, a Raven Guard Space Marine is, Ultramarine units gain 1 to their Leadership characteristic and they also can fall-back and still shoot, with -1 modifier to hit, while the Raven Guard opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at units more than 12" away.

This does make them play differently, if not always accurate to the lore*. The Raven Guard will be encouraged to keep their opponents at arm's length to make the most of this difference, while rules-wise, I can see Ultramarines players loving bikes... At the end of the day, whether the Orks are from the Goff Clan, or the Ork Empire of Charadon, letting them advance +2" and can charge after falling back isn't going really going to impact the lore...

*Codex: Space Marines is probably the best example of a rules writer trying to create theme without really grasping the rules... the Ultramarines CT provides the best hit and run bikers/fast units, the White Scars the best Assault Marines, Salamanders CT encourages Meltas (sort of alright) and lascannons (nope), etc...

Hellebore
07-05-2018, 00:13
One method to backwards add depth, would be to emphasise a degredation of their genome.

They were invented 60 million years ago and in that time the purity of their genome has slowly been mutated, as all life is want to do.

It allows you to decouple them somewhat from their preprogrammed purpose without entirely removing it - basically the amount of preprogramming that still exists in their genome can be entirely at the discretion of the author and used for thematic purpose.

IE there could be an entirely civilised offshoot isolated for millennia that became pacifists - the brainboy genes appearing more strongly and producing a group that has more free will and less aggression.


There could be feral orks that lost their kulture genes, and so are basically entirely medieval and brutal.


And all sorts in between.


If you look at that the state of the factions currently, they've all had success and failure added to their histories that create distinctions within the society (they managed it with the personalityless necrons...).

The orks are the only ones that seem to cling to the original simple image of themselves.

Rogue Star
08-05-2018, 02:01
One method to backwards add depth, would be to emphasise a degredation of their genome.

They were invented 60 million years ago and in that time the purity of their genome has slowly been mutated, as all life is want to do.

It allows you to decouple them somewhat from their preprogrammed purpose without entirely removing it - basically the amount of preprogramming that still exists in their genome can be entirely at the discretion of the author and used for thematic purpose.

IE there could be an entirely civilised offshoot isolated for millennia that became pacifists - the brainboy genes appearing more strongly and producing a group that has more free will and less aggression.


There could be feral orks that lost their kulture genes, and so are basically entirely medieval and brutal.


And all sorts in between.


If you look at that the state of the factions currently, they've all had success and failure added to their histories that create distinctions within the society (they managed it with the personalityless necrons...).

The orks are the only ones that seem to cling to the original simple image of themselves.

Didn't the War of the Beast do exactly this?

Hellebore
08-05-2018, 02:15
I don't know, but if it did, then obviously they've already got their depth set up and ready to go.

Rogue Star
08-05-2018, 17:15
I don't know, but if it did, then obviously they've already got their depth set up and ready to go.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/War_of_the_Beast

Basically, much of the Ork race were united in a Waaagh! in retaliation against humanity for the Great Crusade, led by "The Beast", an Ork more than capable of taking on a Primarch. The Imperial Fist Chapter was wiped out. Led to the formation of the Deathwatch. The 'current' Orks we've got are definitely degenerated descendents by comparison.

TheSaylesMan
09-05-2018, 23:36
One method to backwards add depth, would be to emphasise a degredation of their genome.

They were invented 60 million years ago and in that time the purity of their genome has slowly been mutated, as all life is want to do..

Modern Orks are already mutated from their form from the War in Heaven. All Orkoid variants are expressed as distinct organisms that are born in relation to the number of Orkoids present. We are pretty certain that the Brain Boys exist and that they were Orkoid. Whether it be a forth, missing major grouping of Greenskin or the Snotlings are degenerated versions of them, Orkoid society cannot function the same way as it did in the presence of the Brain Boys. That is another way to give them depth. Tackle that little mystery.

I would also like a return of Grot Revolutionaries. They make for a very nice way to diversify that faction. Perhaps borrow whole cloth from AoS and introduce Gorkamorka worshiping Ogryns? Troggoths are also up for grabs though I would shorten their name to Trogs. When I tried to think up a way to introduce them to 40k while sticking close to their Troll roots, I noted that Trolls in most incarnations share some traits. Many trolls are green, have big noses and have long ears. Then it struck me that Trog sure looks like Grot spelled backwards if you are terrible at spelling like greenskins are presented to be. Grots are also weak, cowardly, envious, backstabbing and constantly downtrodden by Orks which makes them prime candidates for Chaos corruption. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't come up before. Grots aren't like Goblins. They aren't allowed their own societies. Trolls are creatures of Chaos. So there it is. Trogs (which is Grots spelled backwards poorly) are a species of Greenskin created by fell ritual by Grots as a means of escaping Orkish oppression. They are all Greenskin traits mashed into a single, grot-like organism. The strength of Orks, mutability of Squigs and in the case of the unnaturally smart ones, brains of Brain Boys. They breed true as they are not true Greenskins and their spores only produce more Trogs. They are incredibly cruel as they are essential Grots given massive physical ability but they produce nothing of value in regards to technology. Everything they have is stolen from other Greenskins.

But all in all those are some pretty out there ideas.

Hellebore
09-05-2018, 23:52
The main reason orks lack depth is because the premise they are built on lacks depth.

They have no real variety because all their variety is genetically imposed. From how they make weapons, to how they form groups of like minded individuals. That structure contains built-in variety and depth, but it also limits that depth to its confines.

I'm talking about removing the constraints and conceits that keep orks 2 dimensional (only X does Y because of Z genes) and opening them up to more nuanced development.

Depth comes from subtlety and the Orks are currently not capable of being subtle.

Rogue Star
11-05-2018, 09:31
The main reason orks lack depth is because the premise they are built on lacks depth.

I really don't think the genetically encoded thing removes depth as much as made out, as GW typically never went into great detail on it... While a Mekboy might never become as physically imposing or dominating as a warboss - he's an "oddboy", and as such has preoccupations beyond simply looking for things to defeat, which is 'odd' to the average Ork - nothing stops him from doing all manner of insane things, like seeing if a squig can pilot a deff-dread, or stuffing a wyrdboy into a missile to create a psychic bomb, etc... the only limit is materials and what the rest of the Orks will let him get away with... there's always plenty of Oddboys which got namedropped (Yellers) but which again, were never explored. The only thing GW insists is that as long as the Orks spring up, they carry a fully functioning society with them...

TheSaylesMan
11-05-2018, 21:36
I'm completely opposed to Orkish society and organizational structure being mandated by their genetic. Oddboys? Sure, fine. There has to be a reason why Ork society can function as a threat on a galactic level which would be impossible if they couldn't on some level side step thousands of years of scientific trial and error. The idea that the Klans would emerge from astrographically isolated Ork populations because its literally in their genes? Horrible idea. Also an idea that I have only ever heard spouted by the community instead any official sources. Closest thing we have to some kind of genetic component of Klan affiliation is the Bad Moons being able to grow teeth faster and there are a ton of explanations to that. Orks with faster growing teeth choose to join them because they feel they should. Orkish belief accelerating the tooth growth of the Bad Moons. Other than that there is nothing. There very well could be something though if the community parrots it enough. That is why we have a Void Dragon now, based off of a single article the community latched to, instead of simply The Dragon.

Orks were not built on the shallow premise of genetic predestination that makes them Tyranids-Lite. That is an invention of 3rd edition that has escalated wildly out of control. Keep the sporing. Keep the latent psychic belief system. Keep the oddboys being genetically engineered into the species. Just emphasize the point that Orks are in nothing, wildly unpredictable and should not be treated with the absolutes that they have been treated with. Relegate Klans to an Aspect Temple like aspect to Orkish society. Start detailing some of the prominent Orksih locations that have depth and character in addition to the Waaaghs that are driven by a single boss with force of personality. Let's take a look at some things that don't relate to fighting. Like Runtherds teaming up with Meks to make "Kanneries" churning out tins of canned squig because of frustration over the Boys eating all the Runtherds Grots when they have important things to do. Tell a story about some Meks who come up with the bright idea of stockpiling munitions for later instead of immediately using it and making more as needed. Show us what Orkish mass communication looks like even if it is just a haphazard collection of radio towers and satellite dishes maintained by weird Orks who believe themselves to have something really important to say.

Rogue Star
13-05-2018, 13:26
Start detailing some of the prominent Orksih locations that have depth and character in addition to the Waaaghs that are driven by a single boss with force of personality. Let's take a look at some things that don't relate to fighting. Like Runtherds teaming up with Meks to make "Kanneries" churning out tins of canned squig because of frustration over the Boys eating all the Runtherds Grots when they have important things to do. Tell a story about some Meks who come up with the bright idea of stockpiling munitions for later instead of immediately using it and making more as needed. Show us what Orkish mass communication looks like even if it is just a haphazard collection of radio towers and satellite dishes maintained by weird Orks who believe themselves to have something really important to say.

The problem is, that the Orks are so individual that any such creations would be on a roughly individual basis. It's sort of like an Ork Mekboy with a "Kustom Force Field" - even the first part of the wargear description implies it's a one-off - it could be represented on the model as a backpack, with antenna and looped cables and spinning bits to represent it if the Ork is from Segmentum Obscurus, or if say he's from the Eastern Fringe... a T'au shield-drone he keeps hovering on a length of chain with Orky bits bolted on it's buckled domed surface...

There is literally no 'standard' version, which is why I think fans fall back on the genetic coding... how do you present a summary of something so individual? Your Orks might control an empire of several worlds, mine might be located on a Space-hulk and nomadic... yours might be raiders attacking fringe worlds on the border of Imperial wilderness space, looting what they can before retreating... mine could have been spat out of the warp after looting some ancient Eldar technology which allows them to explode stars...

TheSaylesMan
15-05-2018, 20:22
The problem is, that the Orks are so individual that any such creations would be on a roughly individual basis. It's sort of like an Ork Mekboy with a "Kustom Force Field" - even the first part of the wargear description implies it's a one-off - it could be represented on the model as a backpack, with antenna and looped cables and spinning bits to represent it if the Ork is from Segmentum Obscurus, or if say he's from the Eastern Fringe... a T'au shield-drone he keeps hovering on a length of chain with Orky bits bolted on it's buckled domed surface...

There is literally no 'standard' version, which is why I think fans fall back on the genetic coding... how do you present a summary of something so individual? Your Orks might control an empire of several worlds, mine might be located on a Space-hulk and nomadic... yours might be raiders attacking fringe worlds on the border of Imperial wilderness space, looting what they can before retreating... mine could have been spat out of the warp after looting some ancient Eldar technology which allows them to explode stars...

All the standard needs to be is the mechanical units and maybe the character design of the Orks themselves. All GW needs to do is provide some baseline models and then let fans kitbash them to their hearts' content. Just like how its always been. The mutable nature of Orkish society should be a strength in creating distinct sub-factions that fit the greater whole. Take my Kanneries example up there. All an Ork faction really needs to be is the society built on top of innovations that are too useful or too well defended to destroy. Then you explore the ramificaitons of that technology and take them to their logical (or hell, illogical because Orks) extreme. That Kannery planet finds that it makes it so much easier to make war when the boys always have full stomachs and accessible water/grog. The success of "Squig inna Kan" makes copycats crop up. You get other squig kanz. Grot inna Kan! 'Umie inna Kan! Then you make things go weird. Like "Paint Squig inna a Kan" sure confused a lot of the Lads when it came out but they sure don't mind being able to paint their trucks in a hurry. You get a world-spanning industrial nightmare run by an Orkish X'ekutive that launches invasions for more real estate to build Kanneries on and more things to shove into Kans. A booming enterprise of Freebooterz springs up that is more than happy to trade teef and slaves to the X'ekutive for a mess of Kans or maybe just have a go with them to loot it. Bam. You have character, motivation, room to customize your own guys and even avenues to make rules like some way to represent their improved logistics or penchant for Killer Kanz/Deffdreadz/Gork/Morkanaughts. That barely took any time to come up with but its already deeper than "I like black and white checks, hate laughing and REALLY like smashing guys up close and personal" like the Goffs have. Give them some neighbors, a list of achievements and a timeline and you have the seed of something worthwhile.

Rogue Star
17-05-2018, 01:30
Take my Kanneries example up there. All an Ork faction really needs to be is the society built on top of innovations that are too useful or too well defended to destroy. Then you explore the ramificaitons of that technology and take them to their logical (or hell, illogical because Orks) extreme. That Kannery planet finds that it makes it so much easier to make war when the boys always have full stomachs and accessible water/grog. The success of "Squig inna Kan" makes copycats crop up. You get other squig kanz. Grot inna Kan! 'Umie inna Kan! Then you make things go weird. Like "Paint Squig inna a Kan" sure confused a lot of the Lads when it came out but they sure don't mind being able to paint their trucks in a hurry. You get a world-spanning industrial nightmare run by an Orkish X'ekutive that launches invasions for more real estate to build Kanneries on and more things to shove into Kans. A booming enterprise of Freebooterz springs up that is more than happy to trade teef and slaves to the X'ekutive for a mess of Kans or maybe just have a go with them to loot it. Bam. You have character, motivation, room to customize your own guys and even avenues to make rules like some way to represent their improved logistics or penchant for Killer Kanz/Deffdreadz/Gork/Morkanaughts. That barely took any time to come up with but its already deeper than "I like black and white checks, hate laughing and REALLY like smashing guys up close and personal" like the Goffs have. Give them some neighbors, a list of achievements and a timeline and you have the seed of something worthwhile.

See, to me that just feels a little too silly, even for Orks, although it's much better than putting it into Codex: Necrons. It reminds me of the bits of lore behind Wazdakka Gutsmek and his Orks who are basically conquering planets to extend the size and length of their racing track, ala the 2009 anime movie "Redline". Also gets Abe's Oddysee/Oddworld-vibe...

Also, while GW could do that, it's really the kind of motivation they leave to the fans. You could also just as easily attribute such things to the Clans...

TheSaylesMan
18-05-2018, 03:40
Also, while GW could do that, it's really the kind of motivation they leave to the fans. You could also just as easily attribute such things to the Clans...

I suppose it does have a certain Bad Moons vibe to it. Except once again, Klans have no leadership, no territory, no history and no achievements. I suppose its only in GW's interests these days to divorce their models from any astrographical constraints. Best I can hope for is for the book to present examples of the Klan's empires.

Anyway, too silly? I suppose its just a matter of presentation. It fits in with the grimdark so long as you emphasize the misery and suffering that had to happen to achieve this ludicrous mission.

Rogue Star
24-05-2018, 04:23
I suppose it does have a certain Bad Moons vibe to it. Except once again, Klans have no leadership, no territory, no history and no achievements.

Well again, Orks do not have 'unity'. Factions of the Bad Moons will go off and do their own thing. The Ork Warlord "Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub" for example could easily be considered the greatest Warlord of that Clan, in a similar way Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is undoubtedly the greatest Goff Warlord currently in existence... but that doesn't mean there won't be other Goff Warlords running other empires. I mean, both Nazdreg and Ghazghkull are considered great enough to be listed as "Special Characters", exemplifying the race or a part of the faction's character, but I've never heard of their empires. At best Nazdreg had a personal Space 'Ulk (Scylla) which was loaded with kustom stuff he bought/traded/stole (Ghazghkull got his planetary "teleporta" from him) and Ghazghkull seemed to hang out on the planet Golgotha, but I've never heard of anything comparable to these...


Dregruk and Gathrog
The empires ruled by the Great Despot of Dregruk and the Arch-Dictator of Gathrog have been at war for solar decades. Lying to the galactic north of the Eye of Terror, the resolution of their conflict could have major repercussions. Should so vast a tide of Orks unite, the resulting WAAAGH! could potentially change the face of the war for the Cadian Gate. Were forces from Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade to meet it as they poured into the region, the Despoiler's plans for galactic conquest would be severely disrupted, quite possibly saving the entire galaxy from annihilation. Yet these two Ork empires could never be persuaded to abandon a perfectly good (and very enjoyable) battle for such a noble and civilised cause. Excepting some miraculous act by Gork (or possibly Mork!), the empires of Dregruk and Gathrog will fight on, blissfully unconcerned as their chance to change the fate of all slips away.


Ork Empire of Charadon
The Ork empire of Charadon is the largest and most long-standing of its kind in the late 41st Millennium. Controlled by a pyromaniac Ork berserker known as the Arch-Arsonist, Charadon has been the bane of the Ultima Segmentum for countless Terran centuries. The Arch-Arsonist counts his victories not by the worlds he has conquered but by those left blazing in his wake. His legendary propensity for leaving even the most well-defended worlds as searing conflagrations has garnered him a sprawling empire of Greenskins devoted to his cause. Each successive Warlord of Charadon takes the title of Arch-Arsonist, lending the persona a kind of immortality. Until recently, the expansion of the empire of Charadon was kept to a minimum by the efforts of Chief Librarian Varro Tigurius and the Space Marines of the Ultramarines Chapter. Yet in the face of the increasing Tyranid threat, their success is beginning to wane. The current Arch-Arsonist has seized his chance to invade Ultramar, swearing that he will reduce Macragge itself to cinders.


Ork Empire of Calverna
The Arch-Maniac of Calverna rose to power after conquering the Forge World of Magnos Majoris, the iron heart of the Calverna System. The wily old Deathskulls Warlord then cemented his power for good by having himself wired into the almighty central processing engine of the Forge World, turning himself into the biggest Cybork ever seen. Though this rather drastic step has left the Arch-Maniac all but invincible, the vast data-streams pouring into his tiny brain have also driven him quite mad. So it is that, while the Orks of the Calvernan empire are numerous and well equipped with tanks and guns, their attacks are random and display little in the way of logic or cogent strategy.


Ork Empire of Octarius
The Ork Empire of Octarius is an Ork Empire that stretches throughout the Octarius Sector, a region of space almost as large as the Realm of Ultramar. Located in the Ultima Segmentum, it is centred on the Ork World of Octarius. Controlled by the Empire's ruler, known as the Overfiend of Octarius, this Ork Warlord has bedevilled the Imperium, ruling his alien empire in the heart of the Emperor's realm. In the closing years of 989.M41, the Imperial Inquisitor Kryptman would redirect a portion of the Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan into the Octarian Empire. Blaktoof, the current Overfiend of Octarius, launched a counterinvasion straight into the maw of the Tyranid Hive Fleet. The resulting war has badly bled both sides, but it has yet to be determined which side will emerge victorious.

I mean Ork Empires do exist... they just don't really impact the faction's playstyles...

As an example, what would you suggest for the above as their equivalent of "Chapter Tactics"?

WLBjork
16-09-2018, 04:53
I think the current problem is that, while I like in general what GW have done with 8th edition WH40K, they've confused streamlined with homogenous; every faction gets six or so warlord traits, a collection of psyker powers and artifacts specific to them, and a universal army wide rule that affects everything with a particular keyword. It's nice, but doesn't utilize each faction's nature.

I'd love for example if, instead of Stratagems, Orks got "Orky Events", of which half where good cards ('Waaagh!' every charging Ork gets to roll 3D6 and select the highest result, etc), and the other half were bad cards ("Lootin'" - one unit or Orks decide to start scrougin' the best bitz furst. Play this on any unit more than 9" from the enemy. That unit does nothing this turn, etc) which your opponent can spend their pool of stratagem points on, to represent the infighting that goes on, and the Orks inherent barbaric/disorderly nature.

I can see where you're coming from. The problem is that random events that take control away from the player aren't really a good thing.

Madboyz used to have a chart to roll on to see what they did each turn - they could spend half the game looking for a lost sock, which although amusing isn't necessarily contributing to the Ork players enjoyment.

Madboyz haven't been seen since 2nd edition when GW turned them from the comedy option that had a disadvantage due to random effects into a serious army.

Razios
17-12-2018, 03:15
Th problem with is they are not tie to ANYTHING in general tha can make diferent faction into something.

I mean with other faction you have some forms tha diference it: their patron god, beliefs, the land the chararter is tie for.....

What a Ork have aside of that? nothing, I will said that if you want diferent faction to exist make it like a code or something like that, something and ork always carry with it.