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TheSaylesMan
30-04-2018, 00:35
So I had a really out there idea that I have become very fond of.

I was pondering about why the Orks haven't birthed a Chaos God. They have very unbridled emotions and behaviors. They contributed to Khorne but have no special relationship with that deity. They have Gork and Mork. Those gods have been described as the Orkish ideal created from the behavior of all Orks and the Waaagh. They don't act like Chaos Gods though so I have never considered them as Chaos Gods. No corruption, daemons, marks and so on. But what if they were actually a Chaos God that for some reason acts differently? Consider this. One of either Gork or Mork is a Chaos god representing the Orkish excesses. I would consider that to be Ambition. Go faster, be bigger, kill bigger things, shoot more guns and so on. A constant drive to be better for the sake of being better. Not in that Slaaneshii where they seek to become perfect and love the smell of their own farts. Orks don't believe in perfect. There is never enough dakka after all. Anyway, imagine that this deity is born and Orks as a species become immediately aware of it. They would be after all. That's how it worked for the Eldar. Now imagine how the Orks react. They would love it! That would be their god! Regardless of its desire for the souls of the beings that birthed it. So then you get the combined Orkish belief that this Chaos God is their god. You know how things go when Orks believe things. That would create the other of the pair of Orkish gods.

So Gork and Mork is a single Chaos God and a single Orkish god bound together by the power of Orkish belief. Both were born of incredibly similar things and yet they are anathema to each other. Forced together and constantly vying for dominance over the other. Wild speculation but I think there is something very elegant to the idea. Any opinions?

Hellebore
02-05-2018, 22:57
There's no real hard line definition between a warp god that is chaos and one that is not. They are all chunks of sentient warp energy.

There have been a lot of attempts to visualise what this means - some venn diagrams that show overlapping chaos gods and how all the other gods are but sections of them (mork might be where khorne and tzeentch overlap for instance).

It depends how distinct a warp god is from the warp itself, whether they are literally part of the fabric, or distinct chunks floating around. If they are part of it, then they are all joined to each other in a metaphysical way. There is no true independence. Only in realspace can khorne fight nurgle, otherwise they're all a giant smoosh of energy.

TheSaylesMan
09-05-2018, 23:01
There's no real hard line definition between a warp god that is chaos and one that is not. They are all chunks of sentient warp energy.

I'm going to have to contest that. The Chaos Gods have observable behaviors unique to them among all gods. Cults do not spontaneously spring up in the name of any other Gods. No species has to stamp out shadowy cults venerating the God-Emperor, Kaela Mensha Kaine, Cegorach or Gork/Mork while this is an observable phenomenon for cults of the Ruinous Powers. No other gods but the Chaos ones bless their faithful with grotesque mutations in exchange for service. Daemons in the service to the Gods are pledged exclusively to the Chaos Gods. Daemon Princes are elevated only from the slaves to darkness. There is some speculation that the Emperor exhibits those last two traits but that is only speculation but its tenuous given that the Legion of the Damned do not behave like Daemons do nor do Living Saints act like Daemon Princes.

If there is functionally no difference between the two types of God than that implies that those other Gods could do what the Chaos Gods do. If so, where are all the mutant Harlequins? Just for an example. The only way that makes sense is if the other Gods had the ability to do all those things but chose not to. Given the nature of Chaos to corrupt and the holy rites of other gods not doing that like the Chaos ones, I don't think that's possible. There must be some kind of difference in their nature.

Hellebore
09-05-2018, 23:15
That's a cultural thing. You're ascribing moral absolutism to cultural perceptions.

No one 'has' to stamp out chaos cults. They only do so because they don't like what chaos cults do. There is no Universal requirement that chaos be destroyed.

There are plenty of worlds that worship chaos and have done so for ever. I wouldn't want to live there, but that doesn't make it a cancer on the universe.

Every warp god works the same way - they eat the souls of their Worshippers. Harlequins don't avoid the fate of slannesh, they simply replace it with the fate of being consumed by cegorarch instead.

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TheSaylesMan
11-05-2018, 04:19
The presence of Daemons, spontaneously appearing cults crossing culture and species borders and mutations as rewards are certainly not cultural perceptions. Whether the shadowy cult needs to be stamped out had no bearing on my argument. Only that the cults exist.

Hellebore
11-05-2018, 05:21
The presence of Daemons, spontaneously appearing cults crossing culture and species borders and mutations as rewards are certainly not cultural perceptions. Whether the shadowy cult needs to be stamped out had no bearing on my argument. Only that the cults exist.Yeah but you're using their existence as a distinction between chaos and non chaos gods.

All gods influence their Worshippers in some way, it's just other gods and their gifts are culturally acceptable.

Khaine generates rage and fearlessness in eldar.

Gork and Mork boost the physical might of their Worshippers.

The Emperor bestows invulnerable saves and glowing eyes on sororitas.

It's a value judgement to say that a tentacle is worse or intrinsically bad in relation to these other gifts.


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Rogue Star
11-05-2018, 09:22
The presence of Daemons, spontaneously appearing cults crossing culture and species borders and mutations as rewards are certainly not cultural perceptions. Whether the shadowy cult needs to be stamped out had no bearing on my argument. Only that the cults exist.

True but even Kaela Mensha Khaine has to be 'curbed'. There's a scene in recent "Jain Zar" novel from Gav Thorpe where she and a newly awakened, potentially the first time since the Fall, Avatar of Khaine have a brief discussion. Jain Zar makes it clear Khaine is little better than Slaanesh, and if it were not for the Path, war-masks, Aspect Shrines, Khaine would happily seize the remaining Eldar of the Craftworlds and pitch them into a glorious, but short lived final war, preferring they go out in a blaze of glory. Jain Zar concedes the bloodlust of Khaine is necessary for her people to survive in this new age, but refuses to cede complete control, which leads to a stalemate and the Avatar leading the Eldar in war, but otherwise becoming a cold iron statue otherwise.

All warp entities encourage a certain type of behaviour... one could say while Orks do not have a system of religious veneration, Gork and Mork are generally presented as "slumbering" - unless the Orks are on the warpath, or Waaagh! when they become active, until that energy is expelled by defeat from an outside force, or it expends itself (the Waaagh! scatters or ends up breaking apart from infighting without a suitable target of opposition), where the twin gods go right back to a subconscious level until another Waaagh! develops.

Captain Blood
14-05-2018, 05:12
Anyway, imagine that this deity is born and Orks as a species become immediately aware of it. They would be after all.

They probably immediately embarked on a Waaagh. As for the rest of it, I don't know. As their nature as gods, I would say there's no argument that they are. The real question is what those attributes are, Orks don't really play into the whole idea of daemons and being possessed the same way that the Chaos gods are all about. I don't see them as Chaos Gods but I do see them as Gods. With the big four, they tend to be various emotions taken to a illogical and healthy extreme where healthier expressions of those impulses would not go awry in the same way. Khorne covers martial pride as much as berserk rage after all and that's a lot of Imperial Guardsmen as well as Astartes that exhibit it. Those gods are about the self destructive natures of such excess. I think it might even have something to do with the races that feed into the gods. With Humanity, the Eldar, etc, it is illogical and indeed self-destructive because if one indulges in of the gods, they lose themselves. A population that falls to Chaos has a single generation before dying out? It's like like Nurgle or Khorne to give a toss about settling down and raising families. Maybe Tzeentch, what with unbridled ambition and hope and if it were part of some grand plan or strategy but at the end of the day, it's about losing oneself.

Gork and Mork are different in that they dovetail so well into the Ork psyche. I'm thinking that they don't have possession or daemons if you consider the idea that they're not needed, they ARE the daemons and are ALREADY possessed. We know that the more they fight and survive, they more they contribute to Gork and Mork and the bigger and stronger they get. That's direct divine intervention. They, as a species, have all fallen to their gods, if you want to think of it in terms of the Chaos Gods. The difference is that their unique means of reproduction circumvents the usual mammalian methods of having kids, spending possibly decades raising and teaching them and not spending time doing things to make their god happy, again, stopping to have kids is NOT in their god's plan. Orks sidestep that neatly by just shedding spores all over the damn place.

Now, as to the idea of cults, how do we know there wasn't a cult to Gork and Mork at some point? What if the Brain Boyz actually tried to put a stop to it? As to other species in the galaxy, yes, we don't see humans have cults to the Ork Gods, one might say that the human psyche doesn't lend to it but it's probably more that Khorne gets that mojo anyway. Besides, Orks are all about what's "Orky" and from that I gather that Gork and Mork are a little xenophobic and don't care for converts from other species, never mind that humans that get to that kind of behaviour tend not to be subtle and will likely not last enough in anyways.

TheSaylesMan
15-05-2018, 20:41
True but even Kaela Mensha Khaine has to be 'curbed'. There's a scene in recent "Jain Zar" novel from Gav Thorpe where she and a newly awakened, potentially the first time since the Fall, Avatar of Khaine have a brief discussion. Jain Zar makes it clear Khaine is little better than Slaanesh, and if it were not for the Path, war-masks, Aspect Shrines, Khaine would happily seize the remaining Eldar of the Craftworlds and pitch them into a glorious, but short lived final war, preferring they go out in a blaze of glory. Jain Zar concedes the bloodlust of Khaine is necessary for her people to survive in this new age, but refuses to cede complete control, which leads to a stalemate and the Avatar leading the Eldar in war, but otherwise becoming a cold iron statue otherwise.

All warp entities encourage a certain type of behaviour... one could say while Orks do not have a system of religious veneration, Gork and Mork are generally presented as "slumbering" - unless the Orks are on the warpath, or Waaagh! when they become active, until that energy is expelled by defeat from an outside force, or it expends itself (the Waaagh! scatters or ends up breaking apart from infighting without a suitable target of opposition), where the twin gods go right back to a subconscious level until another Waaagh! develops.

I think there's a big difference between encouraging and mandating. Using Khaine for example, the very fact that war-masks, the Path and Aspect Shrines are possible at all is proof that it is different from Khorne. The difference between Gods and Chaos Gods appears to be that Gods will empower their champions with abilities that are fleeting or not debilitating in the long run. Balance can be struck. There is no Path of Damnation stemming from Khaine where his followers are blessed with seemingly random physical mutations until they degenerate into a Chaos Spawn or become exalted enough to rise to a Prince. It implies a fundamental difference in what the Chaos Gods and Gods are. For all we know, the Eldar pantheon predates the existence of the Eldar. They very well came into being in an entirely different way than the Chaos Gods did. None of the other Gods seem to explicitly be the result of the collective psyche of a species except for Gork and Mork. Which is why I am classifying Gods formed that way as Chaos Gods.

That is why I am so puzzled about Gork and Mork and seek an explanation. They seem to came into being the same way as the Chaos Gods but do not exhibit the same traits. Even the Chaos Gods that are sworn enemies and polar opposites of each other operate in the same fashion. Gork and Mork being a Chaos God of Orkish traits that has another God intertwined with it that sprung into being because the Orks believed it to exist seems like a very elegant solution. One Chaos God formed by the underpinning rules that govern the Warp and one God that popped into being by the latent Orkish psychic power to reshape reality to conform to their expectations forced to occupy the same space. That would explain why neither of them behave like how a God or Chaos God should.

Sir_Turalyon
15-05-2018, 21:40
Short answer: By RT background, there are no insecurities in Ork mind for Chaos to exploit.

Long answer: The Chaos Gods are specific class of warp entities spawned by mortals insecurities. They feed and grow on these insecurities, and promise their worhippers power tailor-made to overcome their own insecurities... martial proves, charisma, resilence, knowledge, getting even, whatever - in return for worshippers free will. Worshipping Chaos is extreme act both evading and surrendering to ones insecurities.

Now, Orks are artificially created warrior species/ sentient(?) biological weapons, down to their psyche and motivations. There are no insecurities in Ork mind, because it's not designed to have them. Also, Ork souls are connected in the Warp into collective "presence", the Waaaagh! Gork and Mork are reflection of Ork collective mindset in the warp and again, mortal insecurities or ambitions of individual worshippers are not a factor. On the contrary, Ork gods are gods of blind confidence, of collective action, of mobbing up and stomping things flat.

It's likely that the Ork collective Warp presence, and kind of deitiess their minds spawn in the Warp, are engineered as much as their bodies and individual mindset; designer psyche that spawns designer gods.

Rogue Star
17-05-2018, 01:36
None of the other Gods seem to explicitly be the result of the collective psyche of a species except for Gork and Mork.

Slaanesh and the Eldar.

Temmy
22-05-2018, 13:27
So I had a really out there idea that I have become very fond of.

So Gork and Mork is a single Chaos God and a single Orkish god bound together by the power of Orkish belief. Both were born of incredibly similar things and yet they are anathema to each other. Forced together and constantly vying for dominance over the other. Wild speculation but I think there is something very elegant to the idea. Any opinions?

I have never liked the idea of Gork and Mork being conventional warp gods. I like the idea that they exist solely within the Waaagh itself. Every Ork is Mork and every Ork is Gork, and the stronger the Waaagh gets, stronger Mork and Gork get. This concept means Gork and Mork dont exist within the warp itself in the same way Khorne does, but are a direct projection of Orkiness itself.

TheSaylesMan
23-05-2018, 19:53
Slaanesh and the Eldar.

Excuse me, I thought that I was being very clear about Chaos God and God being different things. No God of the Eldar, Humans or any other species seems to be the result of the collective psyche of their species except for Gork and Mork. Every Chaos God is explicitly the result of the psyches of mortals reflecting on the Warp. You see my point? They seem to be operating on rules that are halfway between God and Chaos God.


Short answer: By RT background, there are no insecurities in Ork mind for Chaos to exploit.

Long answer: The Chaos Gods are specific class of warp entities spawned by mortals insecurities. They feed and grow on these insecurities, and promise their worhippers power tailor-made to overcome their own insecurities... martial proves, charisma, resilence, knowledge, getting even, whatever - in return for worshippers free will. Worshipping Chaos is extreme act both evading and surrendering to ones insecurities.

I remember that particular line of logic. I think its ridiculous. Orks are not fearless (regardless of what the original Necron Codex says...). Orks want things. To fight. Food and drink. Revenge. To be the boss. To go really fast. Orks have wants and needs that can be exploited by the Chaos Gods just as any other species. Anyway, even if I agreed with that line of logic, it is only a defense against Orks worshiping Chaos Gods. Its not a defense against Orks making them. It is said that the face of Khorne contains a certain Orkish aspect after all. That is not a defense against Gork/Mork being at least partly of Chaos.


I have never liked the idea of Gork and Mork being conventional warp gods. I like the idea that they exist solely within the Waaagh itself. Every Ork is Mork and every Ork is Gork, and the stronger the Waaagh gets, stronger Mork and Gork get. This concept means Gork and Mork dont exist within the warp itself in the same way Khorne does, but are a direct projection of Orkiness itself.

The Waaagh is a psychic phenomenon originating from the Warp. Thinking that Gork and Mork shouldn't exist in the Warp and instead be in the Waaagh is like saying that Khorne shouldn't exist in the Warp and should instead exist within Anger. Both the Waaagh and Anger without the Warp are just mental constructs that exist within the minds of living beings. If you meant Chaos instead of the Warp then okay. Gork and Mork have never been considered to be of Chaos. I'm the one making the case that maybe one could be. You are the one who's ideas are in line with the canon.

Rogue Star
24-05-2018, 04:41
I'm the one making the case that maybe one could be. You are the one who's ideas are in line with the canon.

Well the Orks are not inherently evil. Neither is Chaos.

Orks aren't good or bad, they simply have a "survival-of-the-fittest" nature that pervades the galaxy. Chaos isn't good or evil (Imperial propaganda aside), it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent, sentient species in the material universe. They are however, highly predatory.

Razios
28-07-2018, 20:07
In general, chaos is seen as evil because they are emotion unbound by morality or law of any kind and way, to Slaanesh wanting to kiss someone, wanting them to be with you and wanting to rape and torture are the same thing because they come from the same root: to desire something, is just one have more bound because people concern for the well being of other and for morality reason, the chaos gods erase this(or demand you do so), so khrone concern with slaughter even with their own, slaaneshi are pleasure for pleasure sake and tzeetch plan and plot without end because there is not end.

Now with orks...they influence gods sure, but they are hard to be draw by them because they dont have angst, they have need and wants but they dont suffer if they are denied and more of it, they are somewhat animalistic.

At good example is the lizarman from fantasy, both are old ones weapons, both are both animalistic and borderline robotic and because of that, chaos have a hard time grapsing them.