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x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 04:09
Hello,
After looking thought most of the army books I think I like the Dark-elves the most. Is there something I should stay away from? Are there certain units that are fundamentally broken ( this happens often in 40k ). Also, is it a good choice or is this like choosing Dark-eldar and therefore screwing myself?

Tastyfish
16-06-2005, 06:24
No, not really though I'd suggest staying away from Corsairs and sadly dark riders - not because they are particularly good, far from it in the case of the latter, just we are rumoured to be getting one of them in the battalion box after wood elves (and maybe dwarves).

There really arn't any naff units anymore other than the exception of assasins (which just arn't as reliable as nobles, you are paying points for hiding them in another unit - can be good, but if the opponent realises this then its gone. They won't stand up to characters their points value and cost more than heros - still having a balistic set with a shadow mage with the Cloak of Dark Souls launching them from a scout unit on the first turn can be good)

Make sure you have the Albion and SoC item lists, as a lot of tactics mention them but other than that with the revision the list is very good - not unbeatable but everything has a specific use as it should

[edit] cauldron of blood is not really worth taking til later but then thats probably not a major choice

Dark elves can be played in a number of ways - MSU, conventional with a lot of fast cav, psychological warfare with a ton of fear and terror causing monsters and characters, offensive, defensive etc. It is worthwhile deciding how you fancy playing at first though due to the many different styles and that many uniots are really useful in some, but not others

What did you imagine your host doing?

Zeb
16-06-2005, 07:11
Druchii, can be a tough army to play, it's not as forgiving as maybe Chaos and Lizardmen (as examples). The low toughness and low armour makes you vunreble to shooting and magic, amd in order to win you need to double-tapp opposing units. Coordinate your attacks with elite units and ranked units (warriors).
Stupidity can ruin a battleplan, but you have to live with it.
The rumored plasticset of Corsairs/Dark Riders is still about a year away (my guess) and Dark Riders are quite good to have in your army (almost essential), you could convert your own from plastic silverhelms/glade riders and Dark Elf Warriors.

Good Luck!

Scythe
16-06-2005, 11:15
No real units to steer directly away from, but for starters, stay away from Black Guard, the Cauldron of Blood and Assassins (the latter really not effective, unless you take the special character Shadowblade, which is a monster imho). Get some warriors, some cavalry (tough you might wait with dark riders for reasons mentioned above; but in the end dark riders are an essential unit to practically every druchii army) and determine what army you want to play. Dark Elves are very forgiving in their army selection, and can be played almost every way. Cavalry only, infantry only, defensive army, magic heavy army, monster army, all is possible. Even a relative horde army is quite possible with cheap warriors taken in dozens. Tough the 2 main points of strenght of a dark elf army are speed and skill. And be sure to visit druchii.net.

Badgobbla
16-06-2005, 12:40
It all depends what way you're willing to take your army to. They've got something for every situation (good shooting, good cav, good infantry, flyers,...) and if used correctly, can be devastating.

Remember that there was a revision of the DE-codex a way back in a WD, where they lowered the points cost of the warriors and made some other changes to the list to make 'em bit more viable.

You can always read this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/) as it has some good tips on how to collect DE.

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 13:32
How lethal is the bolt-thrower. I've heard comments made by other players but I don't know if it was out of disgruntlement...

Lord Lucifer
16-06-2005, 14:26
Bolt thrower?
Absolutely brutal metal band, pretty lethal....

Oh, the weapon? Sorry
Yeah, it's sharp pointy-stick death to any Fast Cavalry you choose to target with it, semi-effective against heavy cav, the single-bolt works well against chariots and big gribblies, and if co-ordinated with regimental fire (Dark Elf Repeater-Crossbowmen) can help whittle an enemy unit quite effectively.

Grab two and you're away laughing... grab more and your opponents start to whimper

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 15:12
Bolt thrower is a pretty sweet bad...nothing quite like "In battle there is no law"

What is the main stream army that most people play? In 40k it would be Space Marines.

Lord Lucifer
16-06-2005, 16:15
Fantasy doesn't have that problem to anywhere near the same degree ;)

Closest we get is Chaos

Just pick the army you like and play it the way you want to.

Quetzl
16-06-2005, 17:34
I think its going to be tough starting an older army at the moment, as no one knows when they might get revisited... And when you have spent 100 already and you leasurily look on the GW sneak peeks and see a plastic Dark Rider set, you scream and smash your fist through the screen.

Personally I am in the same situation as you, as I want to collect Dark Elves some time in the future. But unfortunately I am not sure when as new models and battalion boxes could be on the horizon, *but we won't know three months prior to the re-release*.

My advice would be to maybe leave the Dark Elves for a while and perphaps get a small 1,000pt force of somthing newer. But thats my opinion... Chow!

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 18:04
Ahhh. I didn't know that the Dark Elves were an old race. How long ago did this edition come out?

Quetzl
16-06-2005, 18:24
They aren't as old as lets say Empire or Orcs & Goblins but I think they were the 5th release after the rulebook, so they are probably 3 going on 4 years old now.

Arnizipal
16-06-2005, 19:04
It's not like they're going to get a total make-over. The Dark Elves have some of the best mini's in this edition. It's just two units that might get plastic models instead of metal ones, and Dark Riders already have plastic horses so they probably won't get that much cheaper.

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 19:07
Are there any dark elf players on Portent? I've been looking through the fantasy threads and haven't really found anyone.

Zeb
16-06-2005, 19:27
Check my rank....

We used to have an old (and the first) Dark Elf Tactica...

But I'll see if anything was saved before the crash.

But to inform you, I have been playing Druchii since 1993 and it was the free march move (No it's not there anymore) after deployment for Dark Riders, and a heck of a lot of Shades, City Guard and Corsairs. Well it was nice and cool.
And it still is. The miniature range is up to WE is the top of the line. After the revision, the rules are good as well. And there is a million way of playing the list.
And you have the opporunity to play a Slaanesh Force as well... :D

kyussinchains
16-06-2005, 19:42
How lethal is the bolt-thrower. I've heard comments made by other players but I don't know if it was out of disgruntlement...

I use 4 bolt throwers in my army, and it's rare not to do around 6-700 points worth of damage with them. They're also excellent for channeling cavalry, you get the rank penetration if you hit them in the flank arc, so they have to move and try to avoid exposing their flanks, unless they want to lose 3-4 models per hit.

The secret I find is to concentrate fire on one thing until it's crippled, then move on to something else. It helps to take down lesser armoured stuff which hits hard (black orcs, tomb guard) before working on cavalry, as your crossbow fire will do very little against a 2+ save.

I give my crossbowmen a sheild, mainly so they get a 4+ save in combat, but it can also give them the edge in archery duels with elves and skeletons, amongst other things.

flytail
16-06-2005, 19:48
My first warhammer army is dark elfs. I have been playing for only a year now, and it's really tough to play them. I've located a good resource to learn about their units though:
www.druchii.net

This seems to help with specific unit tatical advice. For example, "How does a unit of executioners help your army, and when to use them." Although I'm not suggestion the above is a golden guideline, I do enjoy the fact that there is another specific source of information to my army.

I bought another army while playing them, orcs and goblins. Mostly savage orcs, and orcs( I play in hordes ). I decided that I would learn how things work with my orcs before tackling the superior race agian. It paid off a bit. Toughness 4 really helps me in most cases. So after a few months of just playing the game with orcs ( they are fun too! ), I went back to dark elves.

I found out that one stratedgy I use which seems to work, is to do the coined idea of MSU. It doesn't work all the time, but then why would you want to win all the time; the game would get boring then. But it works in general.

I set my army list up so that I have several hammers. These are like dark elf warriors, and corsairs. Big units of 20. Course you could take 20 black guard. Now you take up small units that can flank, using minimum unit size of 10. 10 witch elves, 5 dark riders, 10 corsairs, 12 or 15 executioners. The hammer units tie up the units, and the other smaller ones flank and get rear. Repeater bolt throwers back you up, with mages. Use your 5" movement to get on them fast and manuever up before they get off said combo.

So I guess something good to start with is corsairs, and dark warriors. But this is a tough army to play. It's not like combocentric chaos( For which I myself wonder what stratedgy they have except hard hitting units, since their point cost is soo high for units... Which would make the game awfully damn boring if you have no startedgy ), or one trick pony armies ( bretonians pegasus style... :( )

I'd suggest corsairs, and warriors. Maybye some riders, but I converted the elf riders rather then using the dark riders. You can wait for the plastic dark riders if they come out, but then why do that? You'll be sitting down for quite sometime, not learning how your army works.

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 19:50
I've read some about Assassins not being worth it, can anyone comment on this?

Tastyfish
16-06-2005, 19:58
As actual assasins there is little they can do that a noble can't do for cheaper, however they do have a nice pyshcological role as suddenly he has to take in to accound that any unit might be able to boost its CR as if it had a character in it - or take the risk and hope its not an important one.

Taking on light cav flanking attacks also helps and to a less extent higher toughness heavy cav (with manbane, S = opponents T+1) as he gets to strike first in the first round of combat

kyussinchains
16-06-2005, 20:04
I've read some about Assassins not being worth it, can anyone comment on this?

I'd generally agree, they can be a nasty surprise, but they'll rarely take out any character who's well equipped, they can be used to take out mages and the like, and sometimes your opponent wont risk charging one of your units because he has a vital character who will die easily. But they take up a hero slot, if the unit carrying them flees and dies before they're revealed, then the assassin dies too. I occasionally take one and give him an extra hand weapon, rune of khaine and manbane. He gets 5 attacks at strength equal to the opponent's toughness +1 so he usually wounds on a 3+.

Shadowblade on the other hand is lethal! the only downside to him is his poisoned attacks, if he gets a poisoned hit, it can't cause a killing blow, so sometimes he can fail, but he's a monster most of the time. It's a shame he takes up a lord slot, so is only really viable in 3000+ games.

Anyone else remember how lethal they used to be in the last edition? I would give him a great weapon and the potion of battle. Always striking first +D6 attacks at S6 doing D3 wounds? he was so nasty even guys like archaon would think twice

x-esiv-4c
16-06-2005, 20:13
It looks like characters and "HQ" slots play a much bigger importance in Warhammer then in 40k. In 40k characters are rarely used.

Zeb
16-06-2005, 21:20
Characters in any Elven army cost an arm and a leg, you can easily go overboard and spend a ridicolous amount of points on characters (over 600pts).
The Characters in an elven army is there to give you benefits other than killing stuff, they give Ld except Dwarfs those are the only ones with Ld 10. Add a BSB and you do have some really good possibles of staying even if you lose combat.
It might not be worth it to use all 4 choices as wee, or just take a few without any magic items.

And assassins are not worth it...

[Edit: spelling assassins with a Q is just plain worng...]

Scythe
17-06-2005, 09:34
Characters are needed in fantasy. First, you need a general (but then, you also need 1 HQ in 40k). Second, in a standard 2000-2500 pts game, you will not get away without taking 1 sorceress. However most people take more characters. Since you need quite some sorceresses to gain any substantial magical offence would you like it and some heros to spread leadership (essential in fantasy), most people tend to fill all their character slots. And elven characters cost a lot of points. Personally, I've been working with less characters with minimal gear lately, which works quite fine. A single Higborn as general for leadership 10 with only some protective armour and a single sorceress for dispelling and I stay below 350 pts with my characters, and have plenty of pts to spend on troops.

Nazguire
19-06-2005, 00:59
Fantasy doesn't have that problem to anywhere near the same degree ;)

Closest we get is Chaos

Just pick the army you like and play it the way you want to.


I thought it was generally Empire or Orcs that were the most played, though Mr. Lucifer is right, there is no way near the amount of Empire/Orc armies in proportion to players, as there is to Space Marines and players.

rune
19-06-2005, 15:20
you have to be careful with army selection & what units you bring. If your army doesnt have cohesion itll lose. i agree w/most of whats been said about whats good and what isnt good.

dark riders are wonderful and absolutely necessary to perform half of the dark elves best tactics and maneuvers, so bring at least 1 unit, most get 2-4 of them(i use two). the black guard usually isnt worth it.. 16pts a piece for 5+ save, WS5, a halberd, but strength & toughness 3. based on that alone, they suck for the points cost, but they cost that much because of their special rules, which are very handy. Stubborn & Eternal Hatred.. only breaks on unmodified Ld9(or Ld10 with a highborn) and hates everyone, and it doesn't wear off. so if you need a tarpit unit to hold the enemy in place(ala 'crown of command' style), this is the unit for that purpose. for any other purpose they arent very good.

dark elves have really good, cheap, core selection. with the revision, a naked dark elf costs the same as a naked orc(like 5-6pts, 8pts with armor shield & spear), which makes them great! 20 of them with full command is 185pts.. hows that for cheap elves? not to mention their plastic & beautifully done. you could of course make them crossbowmen instead, but theyre more expensive in points cost. corsairs are the only other melee infantry core option & only 10pts fully equipped with an extra hand weapon, light armor, and a sea dragon cloak giving them a 4+ save vs shooting and a 5+ save in combat. These are the other white meat because theyre all metal models so they get used less than spearmen, but personally.. I have 36 of them with 2 command groups, working on 40. :evilgrin:

dont spend alot on characters.. as has been said, because they arent worth it. all you need in a 2,000pt game is a highborn or a noble leading, a scroll caddy sorceress, and perhaps 1 other character that can fly or infiltrate or something. If you want to go heavy magic, dont bring any characters other than sorceresses.. except for maybe 1 noble. people overlook that we also have a 2nd unique character that is useful to cancel out the uselessness of the assassin, which is the beastmaster. For 40pts you get a noble that can carry 25pts less of magic items and has 1 less attack(and str3), thats basicly it. So the beastmaster is sort of an inbetween of a champion & a noble. anyways.. 25% max on chars, 75% of your points on the army and youll be fine.

there are numerous 'army styles' that can be played to great success with the dark elves. you can do a sick shooting army that only comes in 2nd place to an Empire or Dwarf gunline army. you can do an all cavalry army with nothing but cold one knights & chariots, dark riders, mounted characters, etc. you can make an MSU army with tons of 10-12 man infantry units & 5 man cav units overwhelming the enemy, or a conventional blocked up infantry army with a horde of spearmen units backed up by reaper bolt throwers & cold one chariots. dont forget the dark riders no matter what you choose.

my army consists of a 2,000pt force from a raiding fleet. its mostly 36 corsairs & 24 repeater crossbowmen, with 10 dark riders and 5 shades for more shooting, and 2 bolt throwers for even more shooting. But dont be fooled, I still have a few tooled up regiments that will kick butt in hand to hand thanks to the addition of a few characters and 2 chariots for back up. Good luck with whatever you do.

its currently down for me, not sure about anyone else, but http://www.druchii.net is clearly the website for dark elves, it even has a mirror site for the high elves similarly done with an active forum as well. there you will find an absolutely huge dark elf community. but that doesnt mean dark elves are the most popular army, not even. I'd say they are the most popular elven army(with high elves close behind), but chaos mortals, orcs & gobbos, undead(vampires) and skaven all have a similar amount of players compared to the dark elves I imagine. I'm sure there are more Lizardmen & Bretonnian players than Dark Elf players..

Scythe
19-06-2005, 18:03
dark riders are wonderful and absolutely necessary to perform half of the dark elves best tactics and maneuvers, so bring at least 1 unit, most get 2-4 of them(i use two). the black guard usually isnt worth it.. 16pts a piece for 5+ save, WS5, a halberd, but strength & toughness 3. based on that alone, they suck for the points cost, but they cost that much because of their special rules, which are very handy. Stubborn & Eternal Hatred.. only breaks on unmodified Ld9(or Ld10 with a highborn) and hates everyone, and it doesn't wear off. so if you need a tarpit unit to hold the enemy in place(ala 'crown of command' style), this is the unit for that purpose. for any other purpose they arent very good.

Well, even for a tarpit unit, they are damn expensive. A minimal unit of 10 without command costs you 160 pts, which is really a rip of. If you're fielding a standard unit of about 20 with command and maybe magic banner, you're close to 400 pts. That's way to expensive for what's a tarpit unit in my opinion.


its currently down for me, not sure about anyone else, but http://www.druchii.net is clearly the website for dark elves, it even has a mirror site for the high elves similarly done with an active forum as well. there you will find an absolutely huge dark elf community. but that doesnt mean dark elves are the most popular army, not even. I'd say they are the most popular elven army(with high elves close behind), but chaos mortals, orcs & gobbos, undead(vampires) and skaven all have a similar amount of players compared to the dark elves I imagine. I'm sure there are more Lizardmen & Bretonnian players than Dark Elf players..

Hmm, HE are generally more popular as DE. Indeed HE are one of the more popular fantasy armies, despite their quite damaged army book (mildly said). Look at the gw releases; those HE heros and bolt throwers were released for a reason.
Altough I have the general idea that DE have a more active community (thanks to druchii.net), and I also have the feeling that generally the more tactical players are attracted by DE.

Sgt John Keel
19-06-2005, 21:20
Altough I have the general idea that DE have a more active community (thanks to druchii.net), and I also have the feeling that generally the more tactical players are attracted by DE.

You are sure? I believe asur.org has a larger community, and indeed is accessible for the moment. I suppose all d.netters are seeking refuge there, so it's some use joining there.

/Adrian

rune
20-06-2005, 03:41
Well, even for a tarpit unit, they are damn expensive. A minimal unit of 10 without command costs you 160 pts, which is really a rip of. If you're fielding a standard unit of about 20 with command and maybe magic banner, you're close to 400 pts. That's way to expensive for what's a tarpit unit in my opinion.

Agreed, which is why I don't use the unit. They are certainly no dwarf slayers or empire flaggelants by any means. Those nakey fanatical gits tend to perform the job much better since they're so much cheaper. But Dark Elves don't 'need' a tarpit unit at all; we can just flee the charge altogether with our cheaper unit of warriors(16 with champ and banner = 148pts, or 12 with repeater xbow & musician = 149pts) and hope for the best. :D


HE are generally more popular as DE. Indeed HE are one of the more popular fantasy armies, despite their quite damaged army book (mildly said). Look at the gw releases; those HE heros and bolt throwers were released for a reason.


You have a point. But the High Elf book is by no means damaged beyond the fact that their archers are quite mediocre -- well gee, spearmen that fight in 3 ranks should make up for that 1 downside by itself. Lets not even get into their cavalry and elites.. we both know the High Elves have been given just as much love if not more than the Dark Elves, both of which have been given adequate attention by games-workshop. I hope there are more HE players.. more for me to face and defeat.. :evilgrin:

Scythe
20-06-2005, 18:16
You are sure? I believe asur.org has a larger community, and indeed is accessible for the moment. I suppose all d.netters are seeking refuge there, so it's some use joining there.

/Adrian

Could be correct, I was not entirly sure...


You have a point. But the High Elf book is by no means damaged beyond the fact that their archers are quite mediocre -- well gee, spearmen that fight in 3 ranks should make up for that 1 downside by itself. Lets not even get into their cavalry and elites.. we both know the High Elves have been given just as much love if not more than the Dark Elves, both of which have been given adequate attention by games-workshop. I hope there are more HE players.. more for me to face and defeat..

Well, both books are not as they should be, but DE function nicely enough as it is now, thanks to the revision and the addition of SoC and Albion items mostly. HE don't have that. Sure HE get all fancy new models and special characters, but they don't get any rules improvement, while still having a lot of rather half baken units (not only archers; have you seen Phoenix Guard, White Lions or Lothern Seaguard lately in HE armies?) I nearly only see HE cavalry armies, hinting that spearmen and swordmasters aren't good enough either for their pts. Since the revision, most DE units are worth their pts.

flytail
20-06-2005, 18:38
dark elves have really good, cheap, core selection. with the revision, a naked dark elf costs the same as a naked orc(like 5-6pts, 8pts with armor shield & spear), which makes them great! 20 of them with full command is 185pts.. hows that for


Can someone tell me where I can get the revised point list. Is it in the chronicles? I can't seem to find lower point values. I had my warriors at a bit more. MOre pts = more oppurtunities for me!

Zeb
20-06-2005, 19:07
Try here. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/update/1/) ;)

Quetzl
21-06-2005, 17:23
Cool the revision is really quite good, its a shame I'll have to stick it in a 12 book with Pritt Stick YukYukYuk

Zeb
21-06-2005, 17:42
I belive the new books, has the new points in them. I'm not sure, but I think I saw it in one of the books with the brown rim on it.

Quetzl
21-06-2005, 17:47
Naaaa I brought a new book only about 2 months ago and its completely different to that, the Warriors are soooo much more expensive.

Scythe
22-06-2005, 08:42
Cool the revision is really quite good, its a shame I'll have to stick it in a 12 book with Pritt Stick YukYukYuk

Not to mention to have all the options you also need the Albion items and the SoC items, the latter which are in another army book you'll have to buy....

I summarised all revisions together in a word document printable on a single double sided A4, which is in my DE book at all times now. Certainly beats glue and/or brining tons of books/ white dwarfs.

Zeb
22-06-2005, 08:52
Isn't there downloads on GW's homepage for the SoC lists as well?

It was, just press here. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/cultofslaanesh/assets/slaanesh-cult-armylist.pdf)

Unfortenately I couldn't find the Dark Shadows/Albion items...

Scythe
22-06-2005, 09:05
Ahh yes, totally forgot that they gave the lists away for free before the book was even out. It's just something I'm not used to from gw....;)

Quetzl
22-06-2005, 16:38
I think I'd rathe wait for a revision and just get loads of games in for my Lizardmen...

Seems like the best bet at the moment.

Scythe
23-06-2005, 13:54
Could take some time tough; I wouldn't hold my breath; the dark elf army book might be a long time ahead...

Zeb
23-06-2005, 14:11
A revision??? We got one 18 months (or something) ago....

The Druchii won't get a revision any time soon... Just so you know.

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 14:17
Are there any armies in Warhammer that are in dire need of revision. In 40k Eldar and Orcs suffer from this.

Punk_in_Drublic
23-06-2005, 14:22
aw, dude, you're sticking your hand into a hornet's nest now. A lot of people whine about different armies that are supposedly broken, but after the dark elves got their upgrade, I think most armies are balanced. And I think the game itself works very well. If you want to you can put together a really nasty list from every army book, but all armies also gives the opportunity to make balanced and themed armies. I think we're in a great place right now.

Later,

-Punk

Archaon
23-06-2005, 16:25
Depending on who you ask every army may need a revision..minor or major.

The problem is that once an army is out and the tournament scene has grabbed it people start to maximise its potential in a way the designers didn't have in mind or simply didn't think of it.

Prime example would be the Skaven Shooter army which really is no fun to play against and many claim it to be broken. While a moderate Skaven ary is really fun to play against some are spoiling the fun because they want to win at all costs (mostly by taking out the fun for the opponent).

I quit 40K several years ago during 3rd edition (having begun mid 2nd. edition) because it just was no fun at all anymore.

Fantasy currently makes more fun because armies are not that hugely broken that a good general can't overcome it. You even may play hard but still have fun and seemingly lost games can turn around in just one turn..i've seen and made it happen.

And as i play DE myself i just want to add one extra little snippet to contribute to the topic:

DE are a fast and hard hitting army..if you play to these strenghts and move your troops carefully you will be a dangerous opponent. DE are not made for prolonged close combat..thats the province of Dwarfs and Chaos.

Move fast, hit hard and do tactical withdrawals when the time is right.

Scythe
23-06-2005, 16:49
Are there any armies in Warhammer that are in dire need of revision. In 40k Eldar and Orcs suffer from this.

Which btw doesn't mean those armies will be redone before others. Look at 40k; it's going to take at least a year before we see Orks/Eldar, and the next one is at least 2 years away.

Quetzl
23-06-2005, 17:13
I'm not asking for a revision of the rules, I'm just keen to see if Games Workshop decide to do another Lustria type revision where they visit more than just one army.

Obviously if they don't want to revise the book any time soon then there is nothing anyone can do. But I think that the Dwarfs and Vampire Counts would be ahead of the Dark Elves any how.

Zeb
23-06-2005, 17:27
I don't think that there will be anything more than what's out, at least not any time soon.

The last two years, we have gotten Storm of Chaos and Lustria. I'm not really sure how you see them as revisions, I see them more like add ons. Druchii first recived the City Garrison list and the Cavalry list, then diferent typess of Hydras, then a revision and last but not least a SoC army (Cult of Slaanesh). I'm guessing we arn't going to get any thing like it soon.

And for next big campaign/multilist book I'm guessing 40K is up...