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mughi3
01-09-2021, 08:20
The purpose of this thread is for those of us who are tired of the GW roller coaster of points and rules changes that make the game something we don't enjoy with "the next edition"


Nobody disputes how great GWs model have become, but to many of us have the opinion that the current edition doesn't feel like 40K




I got my start with dark angels back in mid 3rd ed so i have been playing for 2 decades. my preference is for 5th edition as the logical progression of the game.
6th edition was a death sentence for 40K at our FLGS, it came back a bit in 7th and more in 8th, after seeing the direction that GW is going with 9th i am completely turned off by it.

I find index 8th to be an excellent rule set for playing in epic 40k (6mm scale with halving all movement and weapon ranges).

With great 3rd party companies like vanguard, onslaught, trolls under the bridge (necrons and some rare guard units) and other 3d printed sellers on ebay there is no shortage of any 40K unit to play with in 6mm scale.

Our FLGS has a small group of veterans who have been playing as long as i have who also prefer 5th and are teaching people to play it.

To make 5th even better we took the time to consider all the best rules from all compatible editions (3-7) and put them into 5th with 5th as the core rules. this allows all the players to choose which of the codex editions they want to use to represent their force.

For example our khorne player is using 3.5 my space marines and our blood angels are using 5th. my mechanicus are using 7th.

these are the "house rules" that we pulled from other editions and put into 5th

.rapid fire weapon rules (6th/7th)
.snap fire(6th/7th)
.new weapon profiles(grav etc..)(6th/7th)
.overwatch(6th/7th)
.objective secure-troops choice(6th/7th)
.CCW AP value(6th/7th)
.grenade throwing(6th/7th)
.fearless-no LD checks(3rd)
.3+ reserves(6th/7th)
.flyer rules(7th+5th/forge world flyer rules)-jump units can assault, -12" range penalty for guns, immobilize result= destroyed
.4th edition vehicle assault rules-to-hit +armor facing= auto/4+/6+=not move/move up to 6"/move over 6"
.6th edition smash for MCs(half attacks rounded up max S 10)
.psyker powers used when in the proper phase(shooting attacks in shooting phase, melee in CC etc..) on lD check/selecting the known powers available at the start of the game as per 5th ed rules-includes all 7th edition disciplines.
.snipers-strength 3 always hits on 2+/wounds on 4+/rending on 6+ (3rd/4th)
.defensive weapons on vehicles-S5 or less do not count as heavy weapons if the vehicle moves at combat speed (and is not stunned/shaken)-4th


So what's your favorite version of 40K and how do you play it?

(I will be posting pics after my weekly games.)

Rogue
01-09-2021, 13:38
A perusal of the link in my sig should verify the veracity of my endorsement of playing previous editions. If and when I find some players to get a game, I generally gravitate towards the 5th edition myself. it is what I started with, so I am accustomed to. Only real change that I would make would be to add snap fire, overwatch, and flyer rules to the edition.

mughi3
01-09-2021, 14:17
Yes our group has found that those rules fit nicely into 5th, adding more to the game without negative side effects as i noted we did not make any of our own rules, we just decided there were a few versions of rules that should have been in 5th that already existed in other compatible editions. all through those editions GW still tended to throw the baby out with the bathwater. fixing one problem and then "fixing" something that was not a problem to go along with it.

Commissar von Toussaint
02-09-2021, 00:48
As my sig indicates, I'm a 2nd ed. loyalist. I quit about the time 3rd morphed into 4th. There's a community out there, and a Battle Bible is circulating to help folks find a compendium of all the rules of that edition. Back in the day, there was a thread on Portent where a bunch of us compared house rules and that can also be found in my sig.

I think it's interesting that of all the editions, the 2nd seems to have the most dedicated following - at least based on book prices. Rogue Trader stuff is pricey, but that's because it was never produced in quantity. The 2nd edition was the first mass-market one, with a boxed set in every FLGS, and while the models are cheap, the books are not.

I've got all of the major armies of 2nd. No, I didn't do the 4 specialty chapters of marines because you can honestly do that with the same models. Over the last few weeks I've been fleshing out my Eldar. Just bought a bunch of 1997 jet bikes and Vypers on the cheap. Looking forward to playing with them soon.

mughi3
02-09-2021, 06:41
I noticed that 2nd does indeed have a strong dedicated fan base. it was a bit before my time. i started in 3rd prior to that i was and still am a dedicated classic battletech player.

Because i started in 3rd 5th was the high point of the natural progression of the game for me. obviously not everything was perfect but it still felt like i was playing 40K and not a version of MTG.

Commissar von Toussaint
02-09-2021, 20:48
I noticed that 2nd does indeed have a strong dedicated fan base. it was a bit before my time. i started in 3rd prior to that i was and still am a dedicated classic battletech player.


While Rogue Trader was the origin of 40k, 2nd edition was the first serious top-to-bottom set of rules that combined with a reasonably comprehensive miniatures line. Though now it seems hard to believe, there were certain models that were in the rules but GW simply didn't make them. Space Marines with multi-meltas for example. You had to build your own (which I did).

So part of the attraction is nostalgia for a hobby that wasn't so transparently about maximizing profit. There was more creativity and less uniformity in what people did. Lots of experimentation as well, and when a new edition was announced, people felt that it would rationalize and codify the existing system based on years of positive feedback.

What we got instead really angered a lot of people because it was a very different system.

The joke at the time was that the key difference between the two was that in 2nd ed., the space marines would take cover behind the crest of the hill while in 3rd they'd blatantly stand on top of it. Imperial Guard armies - which used to hug every bit of terrain they could find - now formed up in neat lines like they were being inspected.

After the initial shock, I became a big fan of 3rd, largely because I was able to 'crack the code' of the combat system and build armies that were statistically very difficult to beat. In my own defense, I made it challenging, using vanilla marines without lots of wargear or special rules. But I got to throw lots and lots of dice that were looking for easy hits.

And that's when I soured on it, because army creation was more of a science than an art, and the games tended to run together. Plus, the codex creep was horrific.

When 4th came out (or rather, sort of emerged), I gave up and considered selling my stuff off. I actually did sell my Chaos Marines. But looking at my primarily 2nd ed. space marines made me sad and nostalgic and one day while showing them to my nephew, he asked me why I didn't just keep playing the version I liked.

So that's what I've done ever since. I use random models, but always conform to core 2nd rules, which after two decades of additional experience in wargame design, I still think are excellent at what they do. It's a smaller, more detailed game, but I enjoy it.

mughi3
06-09-2021, 01:46
A little classic battle action-
our hybrid 5th edition rules set 3.5 iron warriors VS 3rd edition IG armored company list-


https://i.imgur.com/hBihCi7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BIdaqN3.jpg

Some incredibly lucky damage rolls saw the IWs win the day.

The we did a couple of classic kill teams games at 250 points.

The first one was a 4 way with 5 objectives (well one real one and 4 boobytraps)

This was iron hands VS imperial guard VS tempestor scions VS salamanders-

https://i.imgur.com/JhQ5qKd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gfV6sWH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UwWQmF4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NgNUnNu.jpg

Iron hands ran away with the victory

The last one was an indoor kill team of iron hands VS imperial guard (with proxies cause nobody had enough ogryns).


https://i.imgur.com/Ey0Zorl.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/YNqwMkt.jpg

Commissar von Toussaint
06-09-2021, 13:20
Nice!

I can see the seams on your playing surface for the interior battle, but not the exterior. Is that one solid piece?

Oh, and two things point to that not being 2nd ed.

The first is the presence of a super-heavy tank. They did have some resin Armorcast models for them, but they were a rare sight and took up most of an army list. When super-heavies came into play in 3/4, I bought a Tamiya Merkava kit to be an IG tank but didn't get around to assembling it until I went back to 2nd. I've been using it for kit bashing, converting the turret into Falcon grav tank.

The other giveaway is your cityscape needs more and denser terrain. The firepower on call in 2nd was such that lots of LOS obstructions were mandatory if you didn't want the game over on turn 2. Even when we play on a "greenscape," there are large blocks of forests, hills, rock outcroppings and we allow each side to start some of their troops in fighting positions.

Rogue
18-09-2021, 14:59
It seems like a nice outing. Keep playing and posting Mughi!

mughi3
22-09-2021, 11:05
Here are some recent updates-

Went very old school tonight breaking out some of the minis from my first 40K army from 2 decades past.

The codex i used was the old 3rd ed Dark angels codex (well 3.5 the mini dex from 2002)

This allowed me to make some fun army list choices.

There was no master of the deathwing aka Belial in this codex and any member of the inner circle could lead the deathwing, as such i gave supreme grand master Azrael a deathwing command squad back when an apothecary and a techmarine could be in terminator armor.

In other sillyness i used his personal command land raider Prometheus- Angelis Imperator and a squad of fellow legion ...er i mean successors- guardians of the covenant

https://i.imgur.com/Hr9R6Ev.jpg

We rolled up a table quarters deployment and a kill points match-

the crimson fists ended up going first. which was good for him since it is very much an assault themed army with podding combi-melta sternguard and assault terminators.

We both were having some horrible rolls. he lost most of his terminators to basic bolter hits failing 2+ saves and when my terminators finally got into CC i failed most of my wound rolls of 2+ :facepalm:

Still it was a fun game with the fists pulling off a 7/5 win on kill points. tie breakers were a wash. we killed each others warlord, he got line breaker and i got first blood.

https://i.imgur.com/hrfBzaB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xdAvCIL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y3JHrrG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zPdNKZQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Rkj8q9h.jpg

MadHatter
29-10-2021, 03:27
i personally loved second edition. And while I collected all factions. My core love was for the Choas space marines. their fluff was awesome. 10K years of bitterness or you could play a warband of recently fallen marines. but when third edition crap all over them, I left them behind waiting for a chance for them to shine. it was here I switched my loyalty between my blood angels and Eldar, though I will confess when the fourth edition came out, I hit my stride with the Eldar faction and was near unstoppable in my local area. I stopped playing somewhere in the middle of 5th. And only recently picked it back up with the start of 9th.

I am flabbergasted that a handheld weapon can drop tanks so easily in the modern version. I thought 3rd and 4th edition with armor rating of 10 on rear armor was bad, now i want to reintroduce that system.

But sadly i live in an area with a super competitive group who are all about the tournaments. it bleeds into the standard gameplay so bad that everyone wants to use gw official tournament terrain set up. luckily i am finally hitting my stride once more.

Rogue
29-10-2021, 13:42
It is not easy to find like minded people in this hobby at times, and yes the new rules do boggle my mind at times. I can sympathize MadHatter. Still, keep at it.

MadHatter
31-10-2021, 03:05
I will. I am now learning how to 3D print with resin. I want to begin making my own terrain pieces. the prices GW charges for less then half of what you used to get 10 years ago is crazy.

I play nineth because that is what is popular. One of the 30K players found that some fans made Eldar a thing in the 30k universe and now they are trying to get me into that group.

Rogue
31-10-2021, 15:32
I think that some of Mughi3's terrain is printed. 3D resin printing seems to me like a wave of the future. I have been looking at the quality that is coming out on the recent printers and I am impressed with what is out there for a reasonable printer, and that is not including what is being released in the next month or two, which changes the game even further. This is something that I am looking to seriously for me especially in the fantasy genre, as I have an endless list of models that I did not like how GW sculpted them, or wished that they did different poses on them but did not have time to produce. With 3D printing the sky is the limit. Will this replace GW? Eventually given how damn expensive the models are. Will this replace a historical company like Victrix, Perry or Warlord? Not likely, but if someone makes a STL file that looks better to me for HYW than what Perry makes, then I am in.

Got a little off topic, but bringing it back to 40K. I can definitely see how someone can make STL files for squats, new IG regiments, the list is endless. 3D printing can certainly augment anyone's older collection that GW neglected.("cough" Eldar "cough") So there is certainly legs for 3D printing in this genre as well. A prediction that I have is that some of the larger FLGS will start to put together 3D printing booths in their store so that you can print out models there. You play a game or two and get some of your files printed yourself or they provide it to you as a service. Put in an order one week and pick them up when you are back for the next game. One of my FLGS can do this now with some rearranging of the space no doubt.

Commissar von Toussaint
14-11-2021, 20:34
But sadly i live in an area with a super competitive group who are all about the tournaments. it bleeds into the standard gameplay so bad that everyone wants to use gw official tournament terrain set up. luckily i am finally hitting my stride once more.

This is what got me out of 40k entirely during the transition from 3rd to 4th. At first I got into the tournament mentality because I was good at it and enjoyed winning. However, with each new release, it became a chore to retool and I finally burned out on it altogether.

It was a few years later that I picked up 2nd and realized how much fun it was. I've been playing when I can ever since.

RE: 3d printing, I guess it has its uses, but I enjoy hand-crafting my terrain from more traditional media like foam, plastic sprue, random parts out of my massive bits bins, etc.

Rogue
15-11-2021, 21:56
I think that 3D printing with terrain can be good for certain pieces that are just too hard to replicate or not easy to find a replacement for. But that is a small amount of cases in my opinion. I can see that much of the function for 3D printing can be labeled as augmentations to the original piece. For instance, I certainly don't feel the need to print out a fuel tank when a drink can can be used without any problem. Where the 3D printing comes into play is that you can cover up the opened end with a cap that you can print, same with some legs for it to lie on. I have seen a few of the files for this and they look a lot better than what I can make.

Commissar von Toussaint
18-11-2021, 23:16
I think that 3D printing with terrain can be good for certain pieces that are just too hard to replicate or not easy to find a replacement for. But that is a small amount of cases in my opinion. I can see that much of the function for 3D printing can be labeled as augmentations to the original piece. For instance, I certainly don't feel the need to print out a fuel tank when a drink can can be used without any problem. Where the 3D printing comes into play is that you can cover up the opened end with a cap that you can print, same with some legs for it to lie on. I have seen a few of the files for this and they look a lot better than what I can make.

For me the appeal would be to do standardized vehicle mods. For example, I use early WW II 1/35 scale tanks for many of my 40k armies. (More detail than GW kits and 1/3 of the cost.)

For Orks and Chaos, having them all look cobbled together works fine, but for Imperial forces you need that mass production uniform look.

I can see printing replacement hull sections or turrets being a neat way to complete a conversion.

Rogue
19-11-2021, 16:37
For me the appeal would be to do standardized vehicle mods. For example, I use early WW II 1/35 scale tanks for many of my 40k armies. (More detail than GW kits and 1/3 of the cost.)

For Orks and Chaos, having them all look cobbled together works fine, but for Imperial forces you need that mass production uniform look.

I can see printing replacement hull sections or turrets being a neat way to complete a conversion.

One of the projects that I have is to convert a Rhino that I made a few mistakes on into a looted wagon. A printed turret would work perfectly for this scenario.

Commissar von Toussaint
21-11-2021, 16:17
One of the projects that I have is to convert a Rhino that I made a few mistakes on into a looted wagon. A printed turret would work perfectly for this scenario.

Yes, and the ability to create new pieces for figures would also be useful. Right now, I do that mostly by sculpting green stuff. It's a hit-or-miss way to it, though.

Rogue
21-11-2021, 16:26
Yes, and the ability to create new pieces for figures would also be useful. Right now, I do that mostly by sculpting green stuff. It's a hit-or-miss way to it, though.

Totally agree with that. Sculpting green stuff is a talent that I have not really mastered. Don't get me wrong, I can fill up any crack and make it match the rest of the model, but making something completely new has always been a challenge for me.

Commissar von Toussaint
22-11-2021, 01:56
Totally agree with that. Sculpting green stuff is a talent that I have not really mastered. Don't get me wrong, I can fill up any crack and make it match the rest of the model, but making something completely new has always been a challenge for me.

It's tough going. I've built some spore mines with it and some minor vehicle parts, but there's no way I could do two identical pieces with it - which is what we're talking about.

A one-off turret? Tough, but I can pull it off. One just like it? No.

I wonder what those printers will do to the secondary market? I mean, why buy cast-offs for modifications when you can just print the thing you want?

Rogue
22-11-2021, 17:03
It's tough going. I've built some spore mines with it and some minor vehicle parts, but there's no way I could do two identical pieces with it - which is what we're talking about.

A one-off turret? Tough, but I can pull it off. One just like it? No.

I wonder what those printers will do to the secondary market? I mean, why buy cast-offs for modifications when you can just print the thing you want?

Honestly, the secondary market for things like bits is virtually no longer in existence when you take a trip to e-bay. I'm not sure if it is due to 3D printing or something else, but it would not surprise me if 3D printing is taking a bite out of that particular market, so I tend to think that you are right.

Commissar von Toussaint
23-11-2021, 01:40
Honestly, the secondary market for things like bits is virtually no longer in existence when you take a trip to e-bay. I'm not sure if it is due to 3D printing or something else, but it would not surprise me if 3D printing is taking a bite out of that particular market, so I tend to think that you are right.

No argument there. Just a few months ago I was happy to see that the prices for the OOP 40k stuff are falling pretty fast. That was good news for me, because scratch-building a Viper was waaaay out of my skillset. My Eldar army is mostly VOID stuff I bought when the game imploded and a local gaming store went out of business - basically giving the stuff away.

So I had decent troops, actually some proxy hovertanks, but jetbikes were a major weakness. And yet the kits were very reasonable.

Of course, some of this is also GW's grinding progression of new models every five years combined with rules revisions. See also: one-pose 2nd ed models practically being given away.

With a little skill with a knife, some good glue and some green stuff, I've been able to do really fun conversions. Where 3d printing would be key is in what we said - new turrets or dreadnought arm configurations. Stuff that needs to be consistent across a vehicle squadron.

You can kind of wing it with Chaos and Orks thrive on inconsistency, but anything Imperial has to match. Period.

Exit Question: Is the falling price also an indicator that 'legacy gamers' are getting out of "The GW Hobby" for good?

Rogue
23-11-2021, 19:30
I think that there is more going on in the secondary market out there. One of the reasons why I closed my account is that over the past few months it is more of a hassle to sell on places like e-Bay. Now you need to allow for them to access your bank account, whereas it used to be just fine to use a paypal account as an intermediary. This is on top of our discussion of people able to print out bits for OOP models, as well as the collections and collectors are maturing for a lack of a better word. I mean by this that, while I may be interested in buying a few more models here or there if I can find what I believe is a good value, I will never sell certain armies that I have collected for almost 30 years. I believe that I am not the only one who thinks that way.

Commissar von Toussaint
23-11-2021, 20:54
I think that there is more going on in the secondary market out there. One of the reasons why I closed my account is that over the past few months it is more of a hassle to sell on places like e-Bay. Now you need to allow for them to access your bank account, whereas it used to be just fine to use a paypal account as an intermediary. This is on top of our discussion of people able to print out bits for OOP models, as well as the collections and collectors are maturing for a lack of a better word. I mean by this that, while I may be interested in buying a few more models here or there if I can find what I believe is a good value, I will never sell certain armies that I have collected for almost 30 years. I believe that I am not the only one who thinks that way.

I supposed it depends on the form your collection is taking. I gravitate to the older stuff, and broken models are a magnet to me since I often intend to cannibalize them anyway.

I do agree that the collectors market seems to be fracturing into people have all that they need so nothing moves and there's less of the "welp, time to dump my army all at once."

I mean, there are full armies for sale, but the asking prices are very high, not the fire sales one used to see as people shifted into something new.

Also, lots of established mega-dealers with large inventories who aren't in any hurry to move product. In fact, I buy most of my stuff that way - especially when I get a notification of a sale or incentive.

It's interesting what isn't out there, though. Some armies have lots of items up, others almost nothing.

It's like as you said - the true collectors have already snarfed up the ultimate Squat army and no one's in the mood to sell.