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athamas
20-07-2006, 12:36
should be with us for games day,


was speaking to FW people, and they say the book should be availibe there.


apparently the scale is somewhat irrelivent, so for the trule insane 40k models will be able to be used, though the epic ones will be the once they expect people to use..

violenceha
20-07-2006, 12:48
Looking forward to this, actually, though to be honest, if ever a game was going to erupt into miniatures being thrown through the air.........

philbrad2
20-07-2006, 13:01
Damn damn damn ... need to buy an Hellblade & Talon now ...

:chrome:

inq.serge
20-07-2006, 13:09
Sound intersting!
will it be able to have different scales on the model, i.e. AI28 and A1(epic scale)?

If so, then I want to try it with Inq.scale models! (yes! an other use for my inq.scale lightning*)


(*= se my sig for inq.gallery!)

athamas
20-07-2006, 13:23
well it will be a rule set, measured in inches i belive, so its just scaling..

for 40k it becomes feet, and for =][= meters... :p

Shadowseer Crofty
20-07-2006, 17:41
sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is this Aeronautica Imperialis thing?

intellectawe
20-07-2006, 17:43
Another waste of resources that could have been spent on making 40k a better game.

Xisor
20-07-2006, 17:49
Another waste of resources that could have been spent on making 40k a better game.

Counterpoint:

Q:What is this 40k thing?
A:Another waste of resources that could have been spent on making a better game.

Specifically referencing Epic: Armageddon, Battlefleet Gothic and the ilk. (playing E:A at 40k Scale for instance :p )

AI is a game about flyers, from forgeworld, using the flyer miniatures...from forgeworld. Should be great fun!

Xisor

intellectawe
20-07-2006, 18:29
Makes no sense in current context.

Warhammer 40k had much more support and fluff in 2nd edition, yet cost cheaper. Warhammer 40k 3rd ed was the low point in 40k history in terms or money for product. Warhammer 40k 4rth ed is getting better, but too slow.

The money spent on flyer rules could have been spent to hire one guy to sit in a room and write more fluff for existing game systems and armies.

Is this book being written by GW or FW?

DarkWarrior1981
20-07-2006, 18:31
Is this book being written by GW or FW?
It's a FW product, written by Warwick and Tony.:)

my_name_is_tudor
20-07-2006, 18:37
Which sort of trumps your whole argument intellectawe ay?

KingM
20-07-2006, 18:48
I'm looking forward to this too. It fills the gap that has been left by the 'niche games'. i.e. GW used to do one of these every 3 years or so, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, BFG etc etc to sit along the two main games for a while. Since LotR has come along, they have stopped doing that. Not that I have anything against LotR, I like it a lot, but it has meant there is not shop space for these kinds of games.

FW doing this kind of thing is a great idea, and also a good way for them to sell some Epic flyers (which incidentally I like a lot, but have never bought because I don't play Epic). GD release is good news, however if its anything like last year, the FW sales stand will be a warzone, might be better to buy it online on the Monday after GD :)

Cheers

Matt

Christine
20-07-2006, 18:48
Don't forget that Forgeworld and Games Workshop operate more or less side by side rather than as one large company with their own separate design departments.

Besides 40k recently had an over-haul and aeronautica imperialis has been long anticipted by epic fans.

WokeUpDead
20-07-2006, 18:52
I'm still wondering if AI is something Forgeworld-internal or THE airfight-game JJ wanted to do for years..

Anyway; should be fun to use :)

intellectawe
20-07-2006, 18:55
Which sort of trumps your whole argument intellectawe ay?

Not at all since both companies are basically one and the same due to the intemingling of the employees in both companies. If GW says jump, FW jumps. Some people my not believe this, but thats ok. FW could have done more support for existing games, like epic itself. There are still tons of armies that need to be redone. Almost feels like half finishing a job and jumping into the next. Sounds alot like GW.

Lets hope that AI doesn't fall flat like other pet projects done by GW.

Blackadder
20-07-2006, 18:55
Sound intersting!
will it be able to have different scales on the model, i.e. AI28 and A1(epic scale)?

If so, then I want to try it with Inq.scale models! (yes! an other use for my inq.scale lightning*)


(*= se my sig for inq.gallery!)

You should go to an aircraft museum and play Aeronautica Imperialis with the museums aircraft in 1:1 scale!

Gen.Steiner
20-07-2006, 19:16
You should go to an aircraft museum and play Aeronautica Imperialis with the museums aircraft in 1:1 scale!

That'd be called 'air to air combat' :p

AI looks to be fun, and I'm a sucker for aircraft, so I shall probably invest in it. Intellectwe, AI will expand the 40K universe, just as BFG, Necromunda, Gorkamorka and Epic have.

intellectawe
20-07-2006, 19:23
True. I just hope the hype doesnt die as fast as it did with Battle Fleet Gothic.

Gen.Steiner
20-07-2006, 19:32
GW supported its "Specialist Games" abysmally IMHO. They'd get six months of WD if they were lucky, then poof! consigned to the skip.

Aeronautica Imperialis will, hopefully, be supported by FW in a much more sensible manner.

All that said, people still play the SGs, e.g. me, so the hype may be gone but the players aren't...

TheSanityAssassin
20-07-2006, 19:41
Specialist games are tons of fun, there's just not enough support out for them, leading to a real lack of players...I've went through one game of Gothic, and one of Epic and enjoyed the hell out of it....even built a little chaos fleet, but it just became way to difficult to find ANYONE to play against....

Sildani
20-07-2006, 20:32
I just hope they manage to balance the Eldar aircraft.

A race that has mastered anti-gravity, whose pilots have piloted the same aircraft for perhaps a hundred years and more, whose weapons are some of the most feared in the galaxy, whose aircraft alone all have a 4+ invulnerable save...

I guess a Nightwing will be amazingly expensive, points-wise.

revford
20-07-2006, 21:44
I love the sound of this one, does anyone have a clue how many planes a side we should be looking at?

I've got a couple of Thunderbolts painted up already.

Also, I've heard about some strange new bases the game will use to mark aircraft height, like the old titan bases with shield counter. Anyone heard if these will be available seperately for adding to existing planes?

WokeUpDead
20-07-2006, 21:53
I love the sound of this one, does anyone have a clue how many planes a side we should be looking at?

I've got a couple of Thunderbolts painted up already.

Also, I've heard about some strange new bases the game will use to mark aircraft height, like the old titan bases with shield counter. Anyone heard if these will be available seperately for adding to existing planes?

if AI is JJ's baby then it's a squadron-based game (IIRC). Problem is: I don't know if it's JJ's or a FW-internal ;)

Bregalad
20-07-2006, 22:05
For all those people who have missed the long thread on this FW game (and were too lazy to use the search ;)), here it is:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37283



Another waste of resources that could have been spent on making 40k a better game.

You obviously haven't read the book "Imperial Armor 3: The Taros Campaign". This setting managed for the first time to organically mix the normal 40k battles with (usually Epic) air fights and (usually Battlefleet Gothic) space fight, to come up with a whole believable campaign on different scales. While IA4 gave us some rules on close quarters fighting (skirmish scale), the Aeronautica Imperialis provides us with an extra dimension of 40k fight: air support and air supremacy! Remember, WW2 in Europe was decided or at least influenced greatly by air battles (e.g. "Battle of Britain" and later bomb war). I am looking forward to add this dimension to my 40k battles. IA5 will add the big battlefield/points dimension to 40k gaming, so together with current new city fight rules (and material) we all will need a long time to explore all new possibilities for better 40k games that GW and FW give us now and in the near future.

pyramid_head
20-07-2006, 22:47
hooray I can use my whole one thunderbolt fighter

Born Again
21-07-2006, 00:48
Just have to say great Avatar Philbrad.

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2006, 08:53
True. I just hope the hype doesnt die as fast as it did with Battle Fleet Gothic.
Well, IMO a part of the problem with things like BFG was that it's a whole new set of models to buy, build and paint, plus in BFG's case there's the hassle of storing and transporting what in some cases are huge, unbalanced lumps of pewter stuck on a 2mm diameter brittle plastic pin (which let us not forget is basically everything from the cruisers upwards :rolleyes: ).

AI should get around this with smaller models, that are already being used for another game - after all, it's really just an add-on for epic, rather than a whole new game in it's own right.

As for "wasting resources that could go into making 40k better", FW seems to have done this as their own little side project in their own time. Their development staff do work off early army lists for 40k armies (Guard and Tau for example), but there's no formal development path back into the GW design studio - FW are almost in the same state those of us who develop house rules or create new units are in.

Killgore
21-07-2006, 11:03
Forgeworld are currently one of my favorate things about games-workshop,

FW has added so much more to the 40k hobby, titans, superheavys, new rules and armys.... its brilliant!

i bought the Taros book and it was done nicly

I'm lookin forward for this new book

Col.Gravis
21-07-2006, 15:00
I cant wait for AI, given the quality (and no Im not talking about the editing!) of FW books it should make for some interesting reading in its own right, even without the prospect of proper air combat rules.

Indeed I'd much rather that GW continues its approach of giving us largley bare bones background, with some more centralised material on important individuals, forces, planets, events etc, it inspires us the gamers to make the 40k universe our own universe, a good thing. Expanding on things such as what AI could bring, sure it wont be a popular game, its gonna be one for the vets more then the youngsters that LoTRs brought into the hobby, thats no big issue as far as Im concerned though.

intellectawe
21-07-2006, 15:17
Well, IMO a part of the problem with things like BFG was that it's a whole new set of models to buy, build and paint, plus in BFG's case there's the hassle of storing and transporting what in some cases are huge, unbalanced lumps of pewter stuck on a 2mm diameter brittle plastic pin (which let us not forget is basically everything from the cruisers upwards :rolleyes: ).

AI should get around this with smaller models, that are already being used for another game - after all, it's really just an add-on for epic, rather than a whole new game in it's own right.

As for "wasting resources that could go into making 40k better", FW seems to have done this as their own little side project in their own time. Their development staff do work off early army lists for 40k armies (Guard and Tau for example), but there's no formal development path back into the GW design studio - FW are almost in the same state those of us who develop house rules or create new units are in.

Good point! I see this in a very different light now, thanks!! Will this new game only affect epic, or can it be used in other games as well?

Jedi152
21-07-2006, 15:20
Anyone any idea as to how much this book will cost? Is it the usual FW £50+ fare?

ChrisLS
21-07-2006, 16:46
Sounds like a cool idea - we'll see how many people actually play it. My biggest gripe with Specialist Games wasn't the level of support given by GW (free rules on the web, articles and updates, some great models), but the support given by players. My local store tried three times to get Specialist leagues going, and while lots of people said, "Oh, that's so cool, I want to do it!", invariably NOBODY showed up. Another store which has a regular Blood Bowl league going, I don't think there has been a new team brought to the league in something like two years, even from existing players. What message does that send to store owners and GW?

Colonel_Kreitz
26-07-2006, 07:42
Well, IMO a part of the problem with things like BFG was that it's a whole new set of models to buy, build and paint, plus in BFG's case there's the hassle of storing and transporting what in some cases are huge, unbalanced lumps of pewter stuck on a 2mm diameter brittle plastic pin (which let us not forget is basically everything from the cruisers upwards :rolleyes: ).


If I had a nickel for each time a ship-base has snapped on me, I would just buy out the Specialist Games Division from GW.

Jedi152
26-07-2006, 09:12
Exactly. I've been rooting through some of my old BFG stuff recently, and i'm going to have to drill out almost every hole to get rid of the snapped bits.

I remember trying to make a metal battleship and giving up, there is no way on earth it is balanced enough to be supported by a flying base.

New Cult King
27-07-2006, 02:32
This is something I am really looking forward to.

Especially if only a dozen or less planes are required on each side - I would easily and happily buy two forces to play with, and maybe introduce others to the game. I love the FW planes and will probably end up buying a squadron of each race. My experiences with FW have been nothing less than sterling, so I say bring it on!

Gen.Steiner
27-07-2006, 20:48
Depends on the squadron size, though, doesn't it? I mean, it could be 12 aircraft in three flights of four, or 16 in four flights of four... or 15 in five of three, etc.

I've already got a Thunderbolt flight (4 'planes), so I'd be daft not to get AI. But it'll cost a bit, I reckon, it usually does.

revford
27-07-2006, 22:53
I seem to remember seeing epic scale Aquilla and Argus shuttles in some Games Day photos from somewhere a few months back, a wild stab in the dark tells me they are for AI.

Any word on when these are coming out? Or are they being saved for the launch of AI?

New Cult King
28-07-2006, 00:53
I'd be willing to pay big bucks if the system was clear, concise, and resulted in a fun game.

Gen.Steiner
28-07-2006, 19:00
Which is the question, isn't it?

Gen.Steiner
28-07-2006, 19:18
I've never really been a fan of air combat games myself. I'm too big a flying loony, I can't suspend my disbelief enough - I mean, the models themselves I can see swooping and looping and engaging in over-the-horizon missile exchanges (or dogfights at 80mph above Flanders), but ... the rules ... just don't do it for me.

So.

If AI gets me playing air games, it's bound to be good. :D

schoon
29-07-2006, 19:05
I - for one - am really looking forward to this release. I've always been a air-combat junkie. Speed of Heat, Fighting Wings, and all the rest.

I just wish there was a little more concrete info on book format and release date :(

Eduard
29-07-2006, 19:14
Does anyone actually know when the release date will be for us suckers who aren't able to go to the Games Dag?

Christine
30-07-2006, 12:40
It's usually about a month or so later for stuff that's released at games day to a general release isn't it?

t-tauri
30-07-2006, 13:45
It's usually about a month or so later for stuff that's released at games day to a general release isn't it?
Some stuff is available almost straight away as it's announced, other stuff might not be available for a month or two. I'd expect this to be available fairly quickly but you can't be sure until they give a date.

New Cult King
31-07-2006, 03:15
Well if a good chunk of the models are already made (IG, Eldar, Orks... Tau?) then their commitment to the miniatures side of things won't be as big as with an all-new release.

I've never played any of the other air warfare miniatures games.

CENOBITE
06-08-2006, 16:56
Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but at least not in this thread.
Here's a shot of the new flying bases, taken at Gamesday Cologne today.

They had a draft of the rules there, but the place was so crowded that I didn't get a chance to take a look at it.

Jonik
06-08-2006, 18:55
Phwah! This game looks so good! Damn sexy eldar models, they're making me want to not get the thunderbolts!

athamas
06-08-2006, 18:57
my thoughts exactly...


infact that raider is a brand new thing that has not been sen before, its not listed on the FW site

Bregalad
07-08-2006, 09:19
Yes, base and model have never been posted before on warseer. Thanks.

jazzdude78
07-08-2006, 21:41
http://boardgamegeek.com/game/4646

rules description reminds me of this game

Looking forward to the forgeworld one though hopefully the book isnt too expensive

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
07-08-2006, 22:53
Well, like most of the guys already mentioned, the space around Tony Cottrell and Warwick Kinrade of GW Forgeworld Team was crowdy all the time at Games Day Germany, Cologne. Anyway, I had a chance talking with Warwick about release dates and some of the rules of Aeronautica..
Release of Rulebook and those special bases is scheduled for the x-mas time, so will probably be around end of November / first days of December.
You won't need cover or "terrain" - except you'd like to show targets for CloseAirSupport or BombingRaid missions...(even i can imagine some bases with "clouds" should be pretty nice lookin :) )
The game's bases for epic Flyers will be released seperatly, too. They indicate flyer's direction of flight, altitude and speed as well as they divide 360° arc of fire in to 4 quarters which will be needed for line of sight and for example for use of backguard weaponary (like fuselage/turret mounted in case of Marauder Bombers of ImpNavy).
A game will consist of about up to six Flyers in each army. So, even for a FW product it will be more or less cheap to get started.
Rules for ammunition (you can run out of bombs / missiles) will be included.
Currently, unfortunatly there are no plans for flyers for DarkEldar (sad for me :cries: ), Tyranids and Necrons..
All other points discussed with the FW staff were about the DEATHCORPS of KRIEG. -so no more information to Aeronautica right now.

Izza
08-08-2006, 04:23
Well I'm really looking forward to this.
I'll be ordering a few flyers and the rulebook when its released.
Something different, and (hopefully) cheaper to get going nicely.
Like the idea of developing your force, like necromunda.
Who wouldnt like a Ace!

I see there's things like bombing runs and the like.
Will ground based forces play a part?
ie Hydra flak implacements

revford
08-08-2006, 04:53
The game's bases for epic Flyers will be released seperatly, too. They indicate flyer's direction of flight, altitude and speed as well as they divide 360° arc of fire in to 4 quarters which will be needed for line of sight and for example for use of backguard weaponary (like fuselage/turret mounted in case of Marauder Bombers of ImpNavy).

Cool, I was worried I'd have a pain of a time getting hold of bases for my existing planes.



A game will consist of about up to six Flyers in each army. So, even for a FW product it will be more or less cheap to get started.

Sounds good, I'll get on with building my little squadron then.

schoon
09-08-2006, 00:58
http://boardgamegeek.com/game/4646

rules description reminds me of this game

I'd have to say: not even close. Bommerz Over Da Sulphur River was simplistic in its mechanics - almost beer & pretzels fare. The FW offering sounds much more involved and interesting.

Mojaco
09-08-2006, 07:38
We'll see. I've never been blown away by FW's ability to write stories or rules (I prefer GW), so I'll let you fanboys buy and review it :)

Gen.Steiner
09-08-2006, 09:41
Just six aircraft? That's - what - a flight (or two), hardly squadron-based.

Whee, I've already got enough Thunderbolts to play a game! :D

Sai-Lauren
09-08-2006, 12:58
Just six aircraft? That's - what - a flight (or two), hardly squadron-based.


I doubt the Games Police will knock your door down if you use more models than that :p - but a couple of flights would almost certainly be better to start off with to learn the rules, and considering it's almost certainly a dogfighting game primarily, anything more than that would get very complicated very quickly.

But, if you fancy running a "1000 bomber raid" scenario, or something resembling Eagle Day from the Battle of Britain, then by all means go for it.

And if it is mainly dogfighting, I still think Thunderhawks should burn against interceptors/air superiority fighters.

Gen.Steiner
09-08-2006, 13:15
Oh, it wasn't criticism, just someone said something about it being a squadron-based game.

Whee, 1,000 bomber raid!

Or not, imagine how much it'd cost...! :(

CENOBITE
09-08-2006, 17:00
More pictures from the German GD can be found here: http://www.epic-battles.de/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=10135#10135
courtesy of redram

t-tauri
09-08-2006, 17:05
Those costumes are probably the best fan produced kit I've seen. Those epic aircraft do look impressive.

Damien 1427
09-08-2006, 17:14
...Grot Bombz? A skwadrun of those would be hilarious.

D-D-D-DO A BARREL ROLL!

charlie_c67
09-08-2006, 17:41
More pictures from the German GD can be found here: http://www.epic-battles.de/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=10135#10135
courtesy of redram

Has that =][= forgotten his codpiece? :evilgrin:

Damien 1427
09-08-2006, 17:48
That would be his hat, you filth-wizard. :p

Gen.Steiner
09-08-2006, 17:51
Sod Aeronautica Imperialis, where does one find the instructions for making/joining those Inquisitorially indentured Guardsmen!? :eek:

The Germans do the best GD cosplaying.

charlie_c67
09-08-2006, 19:51
That would be his hat, you filth-wizard. :p

I know, but I wear hats on the head that's attached to my neck. Ahem.

Damien 1427
09-08-2006, 20:03
Don't make me get the hose.

...

...Damnit.

Gen.Steiner
09-08-2006, 20:05
Walked into that one, my friend. :D

SonofUltramar
14-08-2006, 21:03
Well those of you like me who were really hoping that FW would have AI on sale at GD:UK will be disappointed. I asked about it while getting some aircraft (2 Valkyries, 40k scale), apparantly they'll be taking pre-orders and thats about it. Still no idea on price, not even a guesstimate, sigh.

Just have to make do with reading Double Eagle, AGAIN!

Gen.Steiner
14-08-2006, 21:07
Read Captain W.E.Johns' Biggles books - they're much better Air War than Double Eagle (even though DE is 40K).

SonofUltramar
14-08-2006, 21:16
Read Captain W.E.Johns' Biggles books

I do remember reading some of them about 10 years ago, they were good, no idea where they are. To a book shop! Well tomorrow morning maybe?

Have to say AI has been well received where i play, i'm 1 of about 6 people who are planning on getting it and a butt load of aircraft, FW will make a mint if its that popular everywhere else. Here's hoping its as good as we think it'll be?

Gen.Steiner
14-08-2006, 21:54
I recommend (in no particular order)

Biggles of 266 Squadron
The Camels Are Coming
Biggles Learns To Fly

The first world war ones are the best, as he's much more realistic than the others which are mostly just Hun Bashing with added Spitfires. Short stories are also better than the novels IMO.

downundercadet07
14-08-2006, 23:58
I wonder if there is going to be any new information about the 'airborne aspects' of the eldar. They mentioned them during the medusa 5 campaign AAR for week three or week four, I can't remember which one. Its a cool thought though, I love to see an exarch's vampire raider, and an airborne aspect shire would be awesome, like a mix between a ready room and a crazy techno hangar/shrine.

Izza
15-08-2006, 00:30
I've managed to convince about 4 other guys at my club to get into this.
Will prolly pre-order the book and then find out what sort of forces you need (numbers types etc) and do an order around christmas ( to get free shipping)

"look out Eagle leader, there's a Eldar on your six"
BOOM

muhaha :D

CENOBITE
16-08-2006, 08:10
The German Online Tabletop magazine Brückenkopf mentions a 2007 release - I thought the general opinion was a release around Gamesday UK this year? Can anybody confirm either? :D

Bregalad
16-08-2006, 09:11
Well, if you read this thread's first page or the rumour roundup, you can find enough confirmation for a release this year, even an official one by FW.

Edit: 40k Apocalypse (large battles) is rumoured to be released November 2007, perhaps they mean that one.

hasturspawn
16-08-2006, 17:52
I think game like this (and 40k apocalypse) are the way to go for the future of GW. Fans always want new stuff, all the time... Just look how the hype about cityfight went down after the rules where released.

GW got itself badly hurt with the release of GorkaMorka and tried to move the satelitte games to the closet (Specialist Games)

I think the real way to go is to create satelitte games that won't make you buy bucket loads of new models, but make you expend youre actual army. AI at an 40k scale, with better rule for flyer during the games would be great. City of Death is Great. A source book on space combat/boarding combat would be awesome.

i think the succes of AI will be so so even if the hype look very strong. having to change )or adapt) base for existing and already painted model can be a show stopper.

that's my 2 cents (or more like 4.5 cents with the price hyke)

wascloud
16-08-2006, 20:40
its even harder to play SG when games workshop wont let them be played in store, even on game nights. ive bought a blood bowl team, a BFG fleet and an inquisitor warband, and have had 2 games combined, both of BFG, that sucks

VetSgtNamaan
16-08-2006, 21:15
I would like to get the book but really no one I know plays the specialist games anymoer they all sold off thier necromonda gangs and I do not know if anyone was actually into epic or BFG at all in my area. It seems to be all 40k all the time.

Mortare
23-08-2006, 16:41
I phoned forgeworld yesterday to ask if they would have it at UK GD, and the answer was that they would have a couple of display games to show it off, or maybe even participate, but that they would not have any books or models to buy. He also said that he wasn't even sure if there would be an option to pre-order them there. They are normally pretty open about these things aswel

t-tauri
23-08-2006, 16:47
I would like to get the book but really no one I know plays the specialist games anymoer they all sold off thier necromonda gangs and I do not know if anyone was actually into epic or BFG at all in my area. It seems to be all 40k all the time.One thing with the Aeronautica rules it seems as if it may be cheap enough for one person to supply both sides models as you only need a few planes a side, especially if you've Epic armies already.

I phoned forgeworld yesterday to ask if they would have it at UK GD, and the answer was that they would have a couple of display games to show it off, or maybe even participate, but that they would not have any books or models to buy. That's odd. Maybe there's been a printing delay as it's been touted as a Games Day release for a while.

Gabriel
23-08-2006, 17:52
What date is GDUK?

Tom
23-08-2006, 18:20
24-09-06.

Ten characters.

The Judge
23-08-2006, 18:49
Not long at all.... it's going to be sweet.

orangesm
23-08-2006, 22:49
Something to ask if you get the chance - I wont have the chance.
1. I already have 4 Thunderbolts and 2 Marauders on clear bases. Will they sell the bases seperate? (which are awesome)

I will probably be buying 3 Thunderhawks & the book when they are released - the Thawks are for my Epic SM army and the book well to play the game - may also have to get some Chaos or Tau A/C to get people to play against me.

For the integration into other games - I agree with the previous post concerning integration of games. Taros Campaign integrated BFG, Epic, & 40k into a pretty cool campaign. I would like to write/see a campaign in which part of the campaign is the intial Air Strikes and these could have a direct effect on what units are available for fights...

Any more than 2 regular flyers or a super-heavy flyer in 40k means it is a massive game and they represent Close Air Support in this situation. This game will not be something to play along side/above a 40k game, with 40k scale aircraft.

For those of us who play Epic it means nearly a full range of Aircraft for the game - most of which exist.

schoon
24-08-2006, 16:54
I - for one - would be very surprised if they didn't make the bases available for mail order.

Bregalad
24-08-2006, 22:23
1. I already have 4 Thunderbolts and 2 Marauders on clear bases. Will they sell the bases seperate? (which are awesome)


Was asked before and answered in this very thread (page 6, post 52).

orangesm
24-08-2006, 22:50
Ok thanks for pointing that out Bregalad that it was stated earlier. I read through and missed it. But I also hoped there might be more discussion on things like using them in Campaigns or maybe even Epic games.

But that has also already been done so no reason in bringing it back up here on the 40k Rumors area, really should just start another Aeronautica Imperialis discussion in the SG sub forum.

Brimstone
24-09-2006, 17:49
So any news or pictures from GDUK on AI ?

Ki-Adi-Monkey
24-09-2006, 18:12
It should be out just before christmas. There was the Epic Thunderhawk transporter on display (with an underslung land raider based on the FW GK one), which hasn't been seen before, along with the all the other new fliers which have been seen before.

Rob

Brimstone
24-09-2006, 18:15
Thanks for the info, I was wondering if anybody had a further look at the rules.

the GD 2006 catalogue has a picture of a epic scale Sabre AA mount

Ki-Adi-Monkey
24-09-2006, 18:20
That makes sense. I didn't get a look at the rules, but I had a look at the participation games tables by the FW stand, and there appeared to be ground defences.

Rob

Spacker
25-09-2006, 08:00
Apparently AI it was supposed to be out soon, but has been delayed 2-3 months, so Christmas looks likely. Got some pics of the flyers:


http://www.ageofstrife.com/albums/Spack93/IMG_1909.jpg

http://www.ageofstrife.com/albums/Spack93/IMG_1912.jpg

http://www.ageofstrife.com/albums/Spack93/IMG_1917.jpg


More pics at http://www.ageofstrife.com/gallery/Spack93/IMG_1917 in with my other FW pics.

Alessander
25-09-2006, 08:15
This is basically GW's test attempt to get into the click-base industry, where the bases have a clicker that rotate numbers.

Izza
25-09-2006, 08:40
nice pics there Spacker
anyone have a look at the rulebook itself?
Is that a definite before xmas?
I hope FW still doing free shipping around xmas?
excellent!:D

marv335
25-09-2006, 09:10
i had a quick glance through the rules.

all i can say is it looks like a fantastic game.

you can only attack an aircraft on the same altitude setting as yourself (or one higher or lower)

weapons have three range settings. not all weapons can fire at all ranges.

there are manouvre cards. you pick your actions in the next turn in secret.
neither player knows what his opponent is going to do. nice touch.

there are rules for everything that flies by the looks of things,
i saw rules for vultures and valkyries in there too.

the thrust points reflect your speed. 2" of movement per point. move less than your min speed and you stall and crash.

advanced rules for running out of ammunition.
also, if your a/c has run out of ammo, you can disengage and your opponent gets no vp (as long as you're undamaged)

Damien 1427
25-09-2006, 09:15
Bugged the guys on the stand, and it should get a Christmas release date. Forgot to ask the approximate pricing, though. :(

I didn't get a chance to give it a whirl, though. Watched it a few times, and I must say it looks like a real laugh. Especially the chance of running out of fuel/ O:

ml2sjw
25-09-2006, 13:22
So did anyone get to give th game a trial run ?

Tastyfish
25-09-2006, 13:40
This is basically GW's test attempt to get into the click-base industry, where the bases have a clicker that rotate numbers.Its the only way to have altitude marked easily in a game that uses it as a vital part of the mechanics. Hardly new either, the old Space Marine titans had a similar thing that tracked shields and hitpoints

Some pictures of a game in process on Spacker's site (http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Spack96&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

orangesm
25-09-2006, 14:07
it is really click-bases for damage and the like any way. It is one base for all things. Still going ot have stat lines and the like for each a/c.

Spacker
25-09-2006, 14:27
Its the only way to have altitude marked easily in a game that uses it as a vital part of the mechanics. Hardly new either, the old Space Marine titans had a similar thing that tracked shields and hitpoints

Some pictures of a game in process on Spacker's site (http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Spack96&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

Thanks for linking to my site :)

Notice in the 2nd pic the cards next to the flyers too - these seem to be some sort of manouevere cards indicating how the flyer is moving or going to move. You can see cards for banking turns, straight on, and 180 degree turns.

librerian_samae
25-09-2006, 14:29
For me its excellent news that AI has been delayed, means I have extra time to save up and actually get a few squadrens as well as the book when it comes out

Spacker
25-09-2006, 14:32
Heh, me too. I was considering forking out £30 for a few packs of flyers at the FW stand, but I'd already just paid out £86 for stuff (dreadnought arms, DK squad, anphelion specimen tanks and surgical table) I decided to hold off for a bit. I ended up popping to see some friends at the club after GD (they weren't interested in going, played an Epic tournament instead) and I didn't realise how much bigger the FW flyers are compared to the GW ones until I saw them in play (those Valkyries are about twice the size!).

Torgaddon
25-09-2006, 14:32
Any news on ongoing support?

Luke
25-09-2006, 14:43
Hmmm, I saw a game going on and thought it looked quite cool. Out of all the speciality games this one is probably the most appealing to me.

If anything for an excuse to use the epic flyers!

Wolflord Havoc
25-09-2006, 14:55
Had a 'quick' read of the rules and what I saw gave me a nice warm feeling (and I am not refering to the unwashed leather clad goth types that happened to surround me at the time).

Now it appears to me to intergrate altitude, current speed and thrust, positioning and weapon types into what initially appears to be a quite simple rules set.

ml2sjw
25-09-2006, 15:41
Another quick question, how big was the board they were playing on,. can't work out it out due to the scale of epic stuff But it doesn't look to be huge

Alos what type of missions are we looking at, i see at least one airfield attack looking game

Spacker
25-09-2006, 15:47
I think the table was 4' x 4'. The FW epic flyers are much bigger than the GW/SG versions.

ml2sjw
25-09-2006, 15:53
Cool seem to rember the thinking was with forge worlds flyers, that epic is meant to be viewed from the top down, from a ship etc AS the flyers are closer to the "camera" they are bigger

schoon
25-09-2006, 16:46
Looking at those pictures, I see what appears to be maneuver cards: meaning that you place the template in front of your mini and then move it to the end of the line indicated on the card.

It's the same system used in Wings of War (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/wingsofwar.html) by Fantasy Flight Games.

It's an excellent mechanic, and the cards are pretty durable (assuming GW goes the same route).

That actually makes me more interested in this game :eek:

Evilmerlin
26-09-2006, 09:03
Those manuver cards remain me of the now defunked Crimson Skies by Wizkids. Looks interesting though.

rkunisch
26-09-2006, 11:39
The cards look like they are simply thin paper and cut out. Are they really that bad quality?

Have fun,

Rolf.

monstallion
26-09-2006, 11:46
Had a go with this at Games Day and it is great fun, quick to pick up but seems to have a lot of depth to it especially with the manouver cards which are neat.

The ones used at games day are paper but proper cards will be coming with book, as I asked about that

Kev

marv335
26-09-2006, 11:47
the stuff at UKGD was just temporary for demonstration purposes.
i expect the finished product to be of fairly high quality.

Tensor
26-09-2006, 13:20
Those manuver cards remain me of the now defunked Crimson Skies by Wizkids. Looks interesting though.

Actually the wizkids version was based on an earlier boardgame by FASA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Skies). That had secret movement (allthough you wrote them down) and all sorts of cool things - you fired at planes and that ate off armour until you eventually chewed through to the works underneath.. there were design rules so youcould make fast, light, nippy planes or big, heavy lumbering planes, etc. It is a good game. The background was pretty impresive too.

Luke
26-09-2006, 19:53
This game sounds better everytime someone replies! I saw the demo games but couldnt get to the tables as they were rammed. Looked interesting though and the FW models are of course absolutley stunning.


Now, will I choose Tau or Imperial Navy.......

Boss Floata
26-09-2006, 20:38
Right, Boss floatas report on AI

I managed to play a game and enjoyed it thoroughly.

It essentialy has the same mechanics as most games with a few changes..

you get "initiative rolls" essentially priority from lotr but the person with the most aircraft gets +1 and the phases are for both sides like in LOTR, ie. one guy moves then the otehr guy moves, then one guy shoots and the other guy shoots.

Movement is done on velocity and thrust. Your velocity is your speed in 2 inch incriments. so for example V 2 = 4". each plane has a minimum and maximum velocity. e.g thunderbolt is 2 and 6 respectivley. if you fall below your minimum velocity, your crash and die, simple as. and if because of a manuever you fall to 0 altitude you die too.

Thrust is the amount that you can increase and decrease your velocity per turn at the start of your movement phase.

With each plane before the start of the movement phase you write down your manuvers for each aircraft. There are 10 manuver cards. the first 4 for fighters and bommers, the second 4 for fighters, and the last 2 are specialist like bomming runs and other things, and yes there ARE vector thrust manuvers such as a side swipe. the manuvers are done at any point in your move and involve you putting the card infront of the hexaganal base and the moving the base to the point indicated on the card. The cards will take the form of plastic counters in official release. don't worry.

Different manuvers have different options on the card for change in altitude such as clime or dive, and others are spefically there for change in altitude e.g half loop and wing over. changes in altitude require changes in velocity at the end of your movement phase but the effects for example stalling (falling below you minimum velocity in mid climb) are immidiate.

Shooting is the same old routine, roll to hit, roll to wound. some weapons cause more damage points ( planes have structure points btw, average fighter has 2) if you roll a 5 or 6. The interesting thing is they have range bands so some weapons like autocannons and lascannons are better at mid range and tau weaponry has benifits at long range where as the orks like it up close and personal. There is also ammo. each weapon has a set amount of turns it can fire for. so auto cannos have 4 turns worth of ammo and lascanons have 3.
Altitude has modifiers. 1 above or one below and it's - 1 to hit. any more than that you can't shoot UNLESS it's a ground atttack and you have specific ground attaking weponry such as bombs. There are fire arcs so fixed weponry ant side weaponry and stuff like that. Another cool thing is that the tau drone mounted burst cannons for exaple can't face up, so can only fire at equal or lower altitude planes than themselves. others like the marauder dorsal turret is the opposite.

another note on shooting, there is a phase before the shooting phase called the taling phase. any aircraft on 'sombody's six' gets to fire before any others that arn't tailing.

ah and grot bombs. grot bombs are launched from a parent aircraft at the same speed and velocity and then have 3 manuvers before they run out of fuel. their shooting action is 'collide'

Aircraft can have upgrades such has skystrike misslies and tankbusta rokkits for a certain points cost. a typical game is around 120 points to 180. maximum size they reccomend is 12 aircraft a side. to put this into scale a thunder bolt is 20, an panzee pheonix is 60 and a manta is 96. mantas can infact be upgraded to be about 120 points. 1 manta against 6 thunderbolts:evilgrin:

There are full rules in the book for troop drops from thunderhawks, TH transporters, Ork landas and valkaries. so it's completely posisble to combine the epic rules and have a set of valkaries set down and pile out osme storm troopers and provide coving fire while vultures protect both the valkaries and storm troopers from attacking aircraft. There is also full rules for AA weapons such as sabre platforms, hydras and flak waggonz, but they always hit on 6's.

That's about it. expected before xmas if we're lucky.

Izza
26-09-2006, 20:56
Good to hear a nice run down on the rules!
It's sounding better and better!
I just hope it's out before xmas!
:D

Tigerguy
26-09-2006, 21:08
Boss Floata - That was a great rundown of the game. Thanks. I was on the fence before, but now I'm totally into it.

Brother_Bethor
27-09-2006, 09:17
Thanks Boss Floata!

Now I want to play this game more than ever before. Can't wait for Xmas. :cries:

rkunisch
27-09-2006, 10:03
Thanks Boss Floata!

Any information on how this is to be distributed? Is it planed to make a box set or do they sell a book and all pieces single?

Have fun,

Rolf.

Charax
27-09-2006, 10:24
I would expect a Book+Pieces release, like other Forgeworld sets - then again, Forgeworld haven't done complete games before.

It sounds really cool, I'm already thinking of mounting my aircraft on nested brass tubes so I can change their altitude :D

Luke
27-09-2006, 10:26
It sounds really cool, I'm already thinking of mounting my aircraft on nested brass tubes so I can change their altitude :D

Are they like radio ariels? The collapsable ones? I have seen a few 40k aircraft and other wargames airships mounted on those and they look wonderful.

avien
27-09-2006, 11:03
True. I just hope the hype doesnt die as fast as it did with Battle Fleet Gothic.


Well if it becomes specialist games property it probably will....

But GW seems to support Epic games slightly more than the rest of the Specialist range.... not that that is saying much... I mean, specialist games are basically dying a slow painful death (new gothic rulebook out soon tough... in paper too :wtf: )

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 12:42
I'd expect forge world to make the parts avaible seperately, and as various starter sets, with a couple of planes for each side. I wouldn't expect it to be a "boxed set" as such just a bunch of pieces, at a slight discount.

As for the plastic manouver cards, would expect that they will be in the back of the rule book ready to be photocopied as well as letting those of us who want to buy the plastic parts...

Evilmerlin
27-09-2006, 13:00
Thanks for heads up Boss Floata! Looks like a pretty interesting game!

I just checked the cost the of some of the epic stuff on FW though...pretty high prices especially that Tau Manta at £45.....

marv335
27-09-2006, 13:09
the atu manta from forgeworld is huge though (even the epic scale one)
well worth the money. and the forgeworld a/c are not too expensive.
i doubt there will be a box set.
more likely to be the book+ cards/counters with aircraft bought seperatly.
after all many people already have plenty of epic aircraft.
(me and some friends are going toscale it up and play at 40k scale :D
we have enough aircraft to do it)

Evilmerlin
27-09-2006, 13:10
The only problem I see is that there are only a limited amount of aircraft for each faction though. Unless FW releases more aircraft then yes, it will be a niche game.

Imperial Navy = 7 types of which 2 are varients

Tau = 3 types of which 1 is a varient

Chaos = 2 types

Orks = 2 types

Eldar = 1....

Charax
27-09-2006, 13:16
Of course they're releasing more aircraft - we've seen pictures of new aircraft from gamesday!

Spacker
27-09-2006, 13:28
The only problem I see is that there are only a limited amount of aircraft for each faction though. Unless FW releases more aircraft then yes, it will be a niche game.

Imperial Navy = 7 types of which 2 are varients


Thunderbolt, lightning strike, lightning attack, valkyrie, vulture, arvus lighter (in my GD pics), marauder bomber, marauder destroyer, thunderhawk, thunderhawk transport. So that's 10.



Tau = 3 types of which 1 is a varient


Barracuda, manta, orca, tiger shark. 4 so far, no new ones at GD.



Chaos = 2 types


Hell blade, hell talon. Didn't see any new ones.



Orks = 2 types


Fighta bomba, bomba, grot bombs (I guess technically not flyers, but will be in AI and flyable).



Eldar = 1....

Nightwing, phoenix, vampire raider. That's 3 so far with the new ones.


The numbers I've included above are just FW models - there are also SG flyers for other craft.

Pics I took are at http://www.ageofstrife.com/gallery/Spack93

:)

Evilmerlin
27-09-2006, 13:50
Right! I was just going off what I could find on the Forgeworld website actually!

Thanks for the info!

orangesm
27-09-2006, 14:12
I wanna play!
Thanks for the rules examples. I am looking forward to the game more and more and think that integrated games with Epic would be cool - small problem of points difference, but that could be resolved.

schoon
27-09-2006, 14:18
Are they like radio ariels? The collapsable ones? I have seen a few 40k aircraft and other wargames airships mounted on those and they look wonderful.
There are a number of options for adding the "Z-Axis" to your miniatures... Pole & Clip - mount a brass or plastic rod to the miniature base with altitude ticks, and then place the flier on a clip that can be placed appropriately (used in the old games of Hostile Aircraft and Mustangs & Messerschmidts) Radio Antenna - finding one small enough for the FW bases could be challenging; the smallest I found in a casual Google search was about 0.25 inch dia. and 6 x 4 inch segments Stack Blocks - I hate to trust my nice paint jobs to clumsy gamers who knock over the stacks, so this is never my first choice I'm sure there are other options I've missed...

malika
27-09-2006, 14:26
I assume we might also see anti aircraft turrets and such included for this game.

Chaos:
-Chaos might also have Thunderhawks (why not?)
-Traitor Navy perhaps?

Imperium:
-Didnt the Imperium also have some espionage variant for the Marauder?
-What about that Space Marine Lander, or more variants on the Thunderhawk such as the Annihilator of the Black Templars

Tau:
-The Tau had some variants on the Tiger Shark too right?

Orks:
-Da Landa
-More fighter variants
-Looted fighters

Tyranids:
-Well...Harridans
-Mythic Spores
-Gargoyles (perhaps several on a base, similar to fighters in BFG)
-other flying creatures

Dark Eldar:
-Ravens
-that other craft FW made

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 14:31
What is peoples obsession with huge number of different units in games? A few well desgined ones each with their own strenghts and weaknesses, makes for a much better game, this is one of the things i really liked about BFG, there is no point adding extra units just for the sake of it in my opinon, and will just crowd the game

So long as every race has a fighter and a bomber your sorted, though from the sounds of it a transport for everyone wouldn't do amiss... Chaos is easy just corrupt the imperial stuff, eldar and tau already have them, orks might be a problem though.

True imperials have far more units, but they that has always been the case with forge world stuff.

Charax
27-09-2006, 14:35
Well, some people like variety - nobody will force you to use more than a few unit types, but I for one would MUCH rather have the option of more units, and not use them all, than be restricted to fewer units.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 14:46
but the problem with variety is making it worthwhile to the game rather than a just for the sake of a difference, Different weapon fits are one way to go, but i'd expect people are going to zero in on the "best" build and only take that. like i said i would prefere to have a variety of planes that really handle differently rather than having slightly different stats but are essentially the same...

I'd hope that there will be debates over the lightening and the thunderbolt and which is better, which hopefully like the debate between the spitfire and the hurricane will never be truly settled..

Spacker
27-09-2006, 14:58
I assume we might also see anti aircraft turrets and such included for this game.

Chaos:
-Chaos might also have Thunderhawks (why not?)
-Traitor Navy perhaps?



I'd prefer Stormbirds to fit with their continued use of pre-heresy equipment. I suppose if the storyline leading up to the actual Heresy war itself has the Stormbirds being replaced by Thunderhawks then we'll be unlikely to see them though.


Dark Eldar:
-Ravens
-that other craft FW made

Razorwing? The double body flyer, same parts as the Raven, just with a second body.

My brother-in-law would like to see Necrons, I'd envisage horseshoe shaped fighters along the lines of the smaller BFG craft rather than flying pyramids.

malika
27-09-2006, 15:18
Stormbirds? Is there any more info on that?

I dont know much about the game mechanicus but it would be cool to see more logistical support in this game than mere aircraft blowing each other up. So that blowing up an airfield or fueldump would make more impact in a game.

What about aircraftcarriers?

Charax
27-09-2006, 15:37
the MkIV Warhawk ("Stormbird") is a larger version of a Thunderhawk that was used during the Heresy - it was phased out in favour of the THawk because the latter came from an STC design, the former did not. The Luna Wolves kept a number of theirs functioning, and I don't see why the other legions wouldn't. they had a larger transport capacity and were generally considered superior to the THawk. would be very expensive points-wise, though.

Considering the fact that every craft will have a minimum speed and that hitting altitude 0 will destroy them, I think aircraft carriers and takeoff/landing will be the stuff of special scenarios and/or maneuvers. It will be interesting to see if the Valkyries and Vultures maintain their VTOL ability, though - having no stall speed will be a huge advantage when being tailed.

Spacker
27-09-2006, 15:38
Stormbirds? Is there any more info on that?

I just pulled that out of my head as a possibility. I don't know if there are even concept sketches from BL/FW/GW for the Stormbirds. They're described vaguely in the Horus Heresy novels.


I dont know much about the game mechanicus but it would be cool to see more logistical support in this game than mere aircraft blowing each other up. So that blowing up an airfield or fueldump would make more impact in a game.


The game will have missions like bombing and strafing runs as well as aerial combat.



What about aircraftcarriers?

Not sure if there are that many in the fluff. Imperial Navy fighters tend to be airfield launched, although I seem to remember in one of the BL novels there being an air based carrier (Guns of Tanith, where the Phantine are entirely air based).

The Harridan is a carrier - it carries gargoyles. However, gargoyles might well be too small to represent in the game, although the Grot Bomb, which is also quite small, pics have already appeared online so it can't be ruled out entirely.

Christine
27-09-2006, 16:25
Not sure if there are that many in the fluff. Imperial Navy fighters tend to be airfield launched, although I seem to remember in one of the BL novels there being an air based carrier (Guns of Tanith, where the Phantine are entirely air based).



See that would make for some cool modelling and building opportunities, as well as some 'Captain Scarlet - Sky-base' action!

t-tauri
27-09-2006, 16:49
The Harridan is a carrier - it carries gargoyles. However, gargoyles might well be too small to represent in the game, although the Grot Bomb, which is also quite small, pics have already appeared online so it can't be ruled out entirely.Just do the gargoyles as the equivalent of swarm bases. Add in spore mines of barrage baloon size.

orangesm
27-09-2006, 17:44
I think each Aerospace or Air Force (these arent Armies!) should include 3-4 basic air frames and then variants on those as needed. The 3 basic air frames are Fighter, Bomber, and Transport and a 4th the Fighter-Bomber. Once you have a vehicle for each of these you have enough to play a wide variety of games. There are other variants like VTOL/Helicopter type vehicles.
There will of course be Aerospace Forces that do not have this range of aircraft and are more restricted. Necrons for example do not likely require a transport aircraft as they have particle transporting technology. An Aerospace Force may contain only one aerospace frame like the Marine Thunderhawk (yes their is a Landspeeder variant, but it is very rare). A force may not have any heavy bombers as they just arent fast enough - Orks. Each force may be lacking particular type of air frame which will make certain missions very difficult.
Now just because an aircraft falls into a particular category has more to do with its armament and/or type. A good example is a Thunderhawk - you could use it to make Ground Attack runs (Air-to-Ground) but it is most effective at what it was designed to do, haul 30 Marines to an LZ intact and unload them under fire.

Format:
Air Frame
Primary Mission
Imperial Equivelant
Tau Equivelant


Fighter
Air-to-Air
Lightning
Barracuda

Fighter or Fighter-Bomber
Air-to-Ground
Thunderbolt
Barracuda

Bomber
Air-to-Ground
Marauder
Tiger Shark

Transport
Transport
Thunderhawk
Manta

Just some thoughts.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 18:00
imperial transports are probably more likly to be the arvis lighter, as they have made a model of it. The imperial aquilla shuttle could be interesting aswell

The tau have go the transport from firewarrior as well. Thunderhawks and mantas should be kepy for special occasions and "planet fall" type missions as they are pretty specalised, with smaller tranposrts being used for raid type missions

Personally i hope we see escort missions and airfield attacks with fighters attempting to scramble to defend themselves as well. But on forge worlds previous form intesting scenarios will not be a problem

Also noticed this the other day in an old forge world newsletter

"Imperial Navy players will be able to fly missions using Thunderbolts, Lightnings, Marauders and Marauder Destroyers. Imperial Space Marines provide some heavy support with their huge Thunderhawk Gunships and Transporters while facing off against the fighters and bombers of the Tau, Eldar, Orks and Chaos".

orangesm
27-09-2006, 18:17
I was giving examples of what class to put vehicles in (Imperial includes Space Marines).
Your right the Imperial Navy would have things like the Valkyrie, Arvis Lighter, and Aquilla Shuttle. For the range of Imperial Forces in general a Thunderhawk is a transport.
The Tau do have the Orca transport as well as the Manta. The Manta is capable of transporting 4 Devilfish cassie vehicles in addition to the transport capability of the Orca.
The list I gave were for examples of the class of air frame.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 19:07
another quick question for those who played the demo games, are the armaments on the planes taken from the epic or from the 40k rules?

malika
27-09-2006, 19:12
I was giving examples of what class to put vehicles in (Imperial includes Space Marines).
Your right the Imperial Navy would have things like the Valkyrie, Arvis Lighter, and Aquilla Shuttle. For the range of Imperial Forces in general a Thunderhawk is a transport.
The Tau do have the Orca transport as well as the Manta. The Manta is capable of transporting 4 Devilfish cassie vehicles in addition to the transport capability of the Orca.
The list I gave were for examples of the class of air frame.

IIRC only the Space Marines had Thunderhawks...yes they are part of the Imperium but they are not used by the Imperium (as in navy/guard/etc) in general.

SonofUltramar
27-09-2006, 21:17
another quick question for those who played the demo games, are the armaments on the planes taken from the epic or from the 40k rules?

I believe from what i read of the rulebook that the armament is from 40k, my first port of call was my favourite 40k aircraft the IN Thunderbolt, its armed with Autocannons and Lascannons and may carry other weapons such as bombs, Helstrikes and Skystrikes (last one may be wrong but it was something like that?). The Vulture was also in there and has a number of pre-set weapon load outs but they are done in sensible configurations.


(me and some friends are going to scale it up and play at 40k scale :D
we have enough aircraft to do it)

Indeed we are, my Thunderbolt is ready and waiting:)

I can't stress enough how cool i think this game will be, from what i've seen i think it may well knock BFG off the top spot for my favourite SG:D

Gen_eV
27-09-2006, 21:25
...grot bombs (I guess technically not flyers, but will be in AI and flyable).

Flyable Grot Bombz? Ooh baby, I'm-a getting me a copy of this here Aeronautica Imperialis, then! At least two forces, mind you - the Tau ones are gorgeous, and the Orks are, well, Orks!

Suddenly I'm interested in this game.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 21:26
well that settels it defiantely buying it, i'm leaning towards a chaos attack squadron, and some imperial stuff... the real question is how much is th ebook going to cost... i have a feeling its going to be at least the price of ia4 probablly plus a bi t :-(

Still could be worse... At least 12 models a side is a maximum for a game...

Also on the terrain front is anyone else feeling the need for a "cloud city" table....

Easy E
27-09-2006, 22:01
Puffs of cotton on flying bases sounds ideal to me. Perhaps a Ramilles Starfort model swathed in cotton around the bottom would represent a cloud city.

On a side note, does anyone know if they plan on expanding the aircraft range to less well known groups? The Dark Eldar all ready have flyer 40K models, so they should be easy to port over. What about Necrons?

orangesm
27-09-2006, 22:01
The "Cloud City" Table is a great idea... wish I thought of it... Tau Air Caste City. Or maybe an Imperial Gas Miner on a Gas Gaint, the possiblities are expanding.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 22:12
One of the guants ghosts books had a battle being fought on a former hive world were pollution was so bad, the only habitable areas were on the very top of the former hives spires. Thats the way i was thinking of going, that and lots and lots of cotton wool teased up into an uneven cloud base with thunderheads etc This would be soaked in red, orange etc coloured ink for the polluted hell look.

Descending bellow cloud level would result in death because of the corrosive nature of the clouds themselves

Captain scarlet type skybases would be made removable for "ground attack" missions. Possibly a larger "city" to go on the edge, or even a full dome city for troop drops depending on what the rules are like for those scenarios..

Should make for entertaining game play...

Other starwars thing screaming to be ripped off is the assault on the deathstar..... but with a hive city instead..

Bregalad
27-09-2006, 22:17
The "Cloud City" Table is a great idea... wish I thought of it... Tau Air Caste City. Or maybe an Imperial Gas Miner on a Gas Gaint, the possiblities are expanding.

-> Vespid homeworld.
Thinking twice, a cloud city table would mostly be a blue sky (easy) with one city (height?), so probably less interesting than you think. Like a plain with no crash on height zero.

malika
27-09-2006, 22:20
I would love to see missions which could take place in the middle of a bombardement, similar to 40k...but then in the air :evilgrin:

Swarm bases for some units might be very cool, Tyranid Gargoyles, Necron Scarabs and Tau drones come to mind here.

ml2sjw
27-09-2006, 22:23
Don't forget this is an "air" combat game. Though we will have to wait untill the rules come out, terrain as such isn't going to have much of place in the game aside from making things look pretty look at the forge world example games at games day... Very flat very plain...

malika
27-09-2006, 23:06
Depends...what about dogfights between mountains, gasclouds, pires, forests, aircities, etc etc etc. There are so many options open for this in the 40k universe.

Jonik
27-09-2006, 23:53
My brother-in-law would like to see Necrons, I'd envisage horseshoe shaped fighters along the lines of the smaller BFG craft rather than flying pyramids.

So:

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5103/dgsplash4ts.gif

Instead of?:

http://stargate.airforce.free.fr/images/vaisseaux/goauld/3.jpg



Stargate.... ;)

Hellfury
28-09-2006, 00:10
So is this just going to be a terrestrial version of BFG then?

It seems quite similar to me. I would even hazard to guess it has the same engine, since the BFG rules are quite clean, they would have a good chance of duplication into this format.

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 00:11
Sounds very interesting, this game does. I shall watch it with interest, in an interested manner, because it is interesting... :D

orangesm
28-09-2006, 00:26
It doesnt sound like a duplication of the BFG rules to me a bit more complicated.

Once we see the rules I think it would be interesting to come up with a sceniro for gas planet combat, descending to zero does not kill you, may even provide a tactical advantage depending on the sceniro. I am thinking below that level you have entered a thick cloud layer that makes it difficult to target you, but you also can not target, get first initiative but can not shot at anyone - good for losing someone on your tail.

Just a thought.

The Dude
28-09-2006, 02:10
You should still have a chance of taking a damage as the massive preassure of the atmosphere begins to exert itself. Maybe the longer you remain at zero the higher the chance.

orangesm
28-09-2006, 02:23
That is a good idea too. It was just a suggestion for playing on a gas world. different from those of standard game. Might also be interesting to play a game along a hulk's surface/inside a hulk (a ceiling that will kill you!), or in a ship graveyard. Just ideas for different games. Most of the vehicles in the game are aerospace craft meaning they can go into both enviroments.

Tensor
28-09-2006, 06:01
operate in different environments yes, but they would behave completely different in zero g / vacuum than in standard g / atmosphere.

Charax
28-09-2006, 06:05
Would be interesting to see Falcons in AI, as they can perform at high altitudes too

Brother_Bethor
28-09-2006, 06:08
IIRC imperial aircrafts have very limited space capability. For fighting in space IN have other machines (Furies etc.). Only Thunderhawks are truly multi-enviroment crafts.

Tensor
28-09-2006, 06:17
Yes, I imagine sticking to atmosphere operations at first would be best. In space you can do wacky things like continue in the direction of travel while pivoting in any direction to fire. You'd need a whole different set of manouver cards. Maybe an expansion?

Or of course just do what most scifi does and ignore physics ;)

Me wants Necrons. If not... torn between chaos or navy. Whatever, I will try and tie it into existing 40k army... An excuse to buy 40k scale FW aircraft? :D

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 08:43
Me wants Necrons. If not... torn between chaos or navy. Whatever, I will try and tie it into existing 40k army... An excuse to buy 40k scale FW aircraft? :D

Why stop there? Do what I've always wanted to do. Link BFG, Epic and 40K:

BFG to attack the planet
Epic to invade (with fire support whenever BFG ships get to orbitally bombard, f'r example)
Whenever one's epic detachments hit an objective, fight 40K to sieze it

And now I can add AI :D BFG -> AI/Epic -> 40K

Hell, I could even resolve AI ground attack using 40K flyers if they were ground attacking an objective... hmm... :D

Tensor
28-09-2006, 08:50
Why stop there? Do what I've always wanted to do. Link BFG, Epic and 40K

Because I allready had too much tied up in playing Full Thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Thrust) to start playing BFG :-)

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 08:51
Ahh, Full Thrust, eh? Well, link Full Thrust, Epic, and 40K. :p

It's all space combat...

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
28-09-2006, 09:09
Ahh, Full Thrust, eh? Well, link Full Thrust, Epic, and 40K. :p

It's all space combat...

Ahh Full Thrust - some say it's a dead game, I see still some Veteran know it.;) We used to play it with our BFG ships instead of the origin GW BFG rules. Full Thrust is what I call a STRATETICgame!

If Aeronautica really uses pre-written flight orders (which means lucky dice isn't all any longer) - then this is going to be my new favourite tabletop :D
By the way I'm starting Phantine ground forces (droping) in 40k, so where are my Epic - scale Thunderbolts??? (screams, boxes flying. searching all around my rooms) I need a female Flight leader painted - Jagdea :)

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 09:14
I see your Flight Leader and raise you The Disciples (or whatever they're called) :p

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
28-09-2006, 09:20
Umbra Flight will be my first wing! And of course the bluefaced get their Barracudas too. (Tau).
Someone wrote like 6 Fightercrafts in a wing? That makes it easy to give 'em all names on their base - DoubleEagle novel be praised :D

Tensor
28-09-2006, 10:15
Ahh Full Thrust - some say it's a dead game, I see still some Veteran know it.;) We used to play it with our BFG ships instead of the origin GW BFG rules. Full Thrust is what I call a STRATETICgame!

Full Thrust is a very godo game. I started off playing original BFG (abck when there was the easy version in a square box, then advanced rules in WD) but was never really satisfied with it. Full Thrust was far superior... New Swabian League for me, btw :)

I am looking forward to AI though I have to say. I was a big fan of FASA Crimson Skies but it suffered for the hex board, and I had difficulty persuading people to play. A 40k universe version without a hex board may be just what is in order.

As pointed out it might make a fun precursor to 40k games. I allready have an idea to play strafing missions in AI, keeping track of on which turns you get your strafing runs in - then play 40k and on the approriate turn, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA *BADOOM* :chrome:

Now, the question is, with no Necrons, what do I go for? Chaos looks tempting... but they are going to have to add a transporter of some sort I would think?

Mr_Rose
28-09-2006, 10:33
What you need to do is set up a simultaneous game of AI and 40K, with a small green patch in the middle of the AI board to represent the 40K table (12"x6" should do it) rather than a sort of predeterminde "you get a strafing run with a fighter on turn x" precursor.
Then all those commanders who had the foresight to bring advanced comms gear can call in airstrikes and so forth...

Tensor
28-09-2006, 10:40
Yes, I thought similar, but that probably requires 5 or 6 people (ie 2 playing 40k, 2 playing AI, 1 or possibly two refs).

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 11:13
Still, it'd be good at a club or with some chums.

orangesm
28-09-2006, 11:43
I understand the differeneces between the two enviroments (I studied Astronautical Engineering in College) which is why I talked about dense areas in space. Hulks create their own gravity wells and I think would be interesting to fight on the inside of because they limit the altitude even more by having a literal ceiling.

I think the integration of the game wit Epic may prove difficult a Epic already has basic Aerospace rules and there is not a scale change in between. I suppose another Epic phase could be included before movment occurs where a few turns of IA is played, this would of course greatly length the Epic game.

My vision is to play a map campaign that incorperates AI, Epic, and 40k:Kill Team. AI allows an air war to occur, which is an important part of modern warfare. Epic allows large scale battles to be fought as well as smaller engagements (Battalion to Regiment to Division). I say 40k:Kill Team as part of the campaign as these are the special forces of the armies, going behind enemy lines and striking. Just need to sit down and integrate the whole.

Ironhand
28-09-2006, 12:53
This is going to cost me soooo much money :D.

Aeronautica Imperialis sounds like an excellent game, and the models I've seen look superb.

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 13:10
When is this coming out again?

How big are the planes if they're larger than Epic scale?

I want a chaos squadron!

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 13:17
multigame battles are going to be a bit tircky but doable, Epic and BFG worked well together but i have a feeling that AI might be a step to far... But we shall see.

Eldar craft are meant to be able to flip around as if they were in an zero g enviroment thanks to their antigrav tech and vectored engines so that should provide a good basis for messing around in zero g assuming that has been intergrated into the current rule set

As for extra units well the forge world news letter said #

"Each side will have, on average, up to 12 models in the game, and the armies which currently have epic-scale flyers (Orks, Chaos, Tau, Eldar, Imperial Navy, Space Marines) " think someone worked out that the imperials have 12 hulls, but i would expect them to have the highest number of units with other having a few less.

Chaos i would expect to have corrupted versions of the arvus lighter, though as the hell talon and hellblade are radically different to imperial models, they might well get their own transport model. At a minimum i would expect all races to have a fighter, fighter/bomber and a transport, so that they can happily play all the missions in the game

i really tempted to start buying a chaos wing nad maybe an imperial one based on the lightening hulls luckily i'm managing to resist the urge thanks to wanting to see what "starter sets" they do and it seems stupid to pay more for flying bases if they are going to start shipping them with them for "free".

Just have to content myself with fiddeling about with terrain ideas, but even that is tricky without a better idea of the rules. I don't think their will be cover as such but you never know.. Altitude seems to be the cover in AI rather than hiding in a cloud.

Tastyfish
28-09-2006, 13:48
I'm hoping that the various races space fighters get models as well, so the planetary assaults and low orbit attacks can be carried out as well.

Of course you realise what the ultimate 40K universe campaign is now - following a Manta missile destroyer as it leaves its carrier one entering the system and heads towards the planet - then track it as it duels with enemy interceptors at high altitude as it makes planetfall - before eventually coming to the aid of cadres already on the ground - engages in a firefight over a critical objective - and fends off a last ditch boarding attack as the enemy attempt to silence the big guns hovering over the objective.

BFG - AI - Epic - 40K - Kill Team with the very same unit in each game.

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 13:49
SAM sites, oil refineries, bunkers, munitions factories, the list of terrain you could make is endless.

Tastyfish
28-09-2006, 13:52
How big are the planes if they're larger than Epic scale?

They are epic scale, just scale with the tanks compared to their 40K equivalents. The SG epic flyers are about the same size of the tanks.

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 14:11
They are epic scale, just scale with the tanks compared to their 40K equivalents. The SG epic flyers are about the same size of the tanks.

I'm going to order me some now and have some games using the rules the game was derived from.

I'm looking at the Hell Blades and I've had a REALLY cool idea for a FIREBASE batrep.

Stay tuned!

Boss Floata
28-09-2006, 14:34
There are no plans whatso ever to do 'Nid or 'Cron aircraft.

Swarm bases don't work as they would only have small arms or most likeley be close combat orientated, which doesn't really work when you've got aircraft zooming around at 300 MPH. the best you could hope for is that a pilot is stupid enough to fly into a scarab swarm and they go up the intakes, but they would be so unbelievably slow it would just get boring.

So necrons don't even use flyers, flyers fill a tactical niche, one that necrons don't need to. and nids have the harridan, great, so you have a couple of gigantc terrasaurs flying around, slow and close combat orientated = not working with the game.

I'm pretty sure if it all kicks off well and has alot of interest there wil be expansions such as space combat and other cool things.

Brimstone
28-09-2006, 14:39
and nids have the harridan, great, so you have a couple of gigantc terrasaurs flying around, slow and close combat orientated = not working with the game.

The Harridan is a mother creature for Gargoyle brood and has two bio cannons that would work.
I'm sure Forgeworld could come up with some sort of Tyranid 'Raptor' bred for air to air combat.

However I would agree that nids don't fit in with the classic air to air combat genre so maybe if AI is sucessful they could be included in a future expansion.

Achilles
28-09-2006, 14:42
Any happening for Dark Eldar?

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 14:56
SAM sites, oil refineries, bunkers, munitions factories, the list of terrain you could make is endless.

true, though i would imagine these make objective as such rather than the entire table. These will probablly be best made on a single base(a CD size or similar) as a complex as anything else is to fiddly for a game. Persoanlly I like the idea of an artillary battery using the forge world bits, with a few fortifications around the perimeter, flak units will be based seperately to allow for messing about with the scenario and points costs..

The issue is the table itself. its is probably going to need to be flat, very flat. Air combat will mean moving anywhere particually when manouver cards are in use(which also need to be be placed flat on the table), a table with lots of hills and tricky bits will be asking for trouble and broken models when they fall over due to precarious balancing. SO fighting over the ruins of a hive though looking very pretty probably won't work. I would think it is going to require a "desert" type board for most of the games, except maybe special scenarios. But like i said, we need to wwait till we see the rule or at least get a better idea....

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 15:04
SAM sites will certainly have an effect on the game, as will any anti-aircraft emplacements.

I have a desert board which would be ideal for this, although it does have quite a few rocky hills as well as a canyon bridge that some fool will no doubt try to fly under. lol.

Xisor
28-09-2006, 15:10
Any happening for Dark Eldar?

I'd assume they'd start producing some Ravens and Razorwings for Epic Scale, I mean...it makes sense after all, for AI (and they're a published officialy, if not proper 'official', list for Epic)

Xisor

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 15:26
SAM sites will certainly have an effect on the game, as will any anti-aircraft emplacements.

I have a desert board which would be ideal for this, although it does have quite a few rocky hills as well as a canyon bridge that some fool will no doubt try to fly under. lol.


true but SAM sites and the like are units from what i have picked up, either bough and payed for as part of a players "list" or coming free in certain scenarios. Either way i wouldn't think you would want them to be modeled into the board, but more movable and flexible to allow for greater variety of play.

Your desert obard does sound sutible. Thing will be drawing the line between asethics and playability as it is with all wargames terrain, and without having the rules/models(or more accurately their bases) in my hand its a bit tricky to work out. Though i'm still leaning towards a "cloud city" type table leaning heavily on the gautns ghosts book that had the sky crops guys in it. Going below the cloud level means entering the scould, heavy heavy pollution that kills anything that goes in rather than the gorud as such. might even make one of the "blimps" they use to fly around in. again need to se the rule though before i'm definate

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 15:31
FW do some BFG Tau space stations that look like the buildings from Star Wars' Cloud City.

Hmmmm *rubs chin*

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 15:33
i defiantely claim to be the first on warseer to think of the clou city board, or at least to write about it. If i get it built first is another matter though.... :-p

orangesm
28-09-2006, 15:39
It would be possible to do a 'flat' table that is looking down on a hive spire. The ground level is the terrian but the ground rises as approach the center of the Spire.
Start off that the lowest part is 0. The hives outerwall have an altitude of 1, which means that to pass over the wall you have to climb to an altitude of 2. The spire pyramids up gradually unless there is a sheer face.

For the steps up in altitude you could go up an inch per altitude increase. So if the center spire reached up to an altitude of 6, it would be 6" tall and have enough room for two or three bases (one big base). This doesn't mean that aircraft farther down (along the spire) can not be at the altitude of 6, just that you have to be at an altitude of 6 to fly over that particular piece of terrain.

This could be incorperated elsewhere such as a mountain valley battle (Real World Afghanistan) where to hit some targets you have to go down lower than the mountain peaks to hit them, but then also have to be able to climb back out of the valley or crash into a mountain.

For terrian the 'zero' altitude for particular areas is not 0, thus anyone entering that terrian at or below that altitude would crash as if they had descended to zero.

So tables with terrian can exist, you have to make the terrian matter in regards to the game.

Scenario (yes I already came up with one)
A flight of 4 Thunderbolts and a flight 4 Lightings are attacking an Ork Gargant building site that is in a U shaped valley. The Thunderbolts have to be alt 1 to hit the target at alt 0. The target is at the back of the U shaped valley. The Mountains along the sides of the valley rise to alt 2 very quickly and in some places reaches up to 3. The front of the valley is at alt 1. Orks have a flight of 6 Fighta-Bombas providing top cover and 4-6 AA sites in the valley.

In this scenario the IN player has to not only be careful to avoid the SAMs & Fighta-Bombas, but also have to avoid losing aircraft to crashing into mountains and how will the IN player attack the Gargant (their target) and get the aircraft out safely if the mountain an inch away from the target has an alt of 3.

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 15:48
Sounds viable, but we need to see the rules before we know for certain. makes LOS and things a bit inteteresting. Plus could be bit counter intuative aving planes that are at the same altitude in the game a lot lower than in real life "tm". Teh game is going to be tricky enough having to think in 3d and realising models are at different hieghts in game when they are all at the same height in real life without making it more complicated. I'm assumig that manouvering effeicently in all thre dimensions is going to e key to the game. not simply getting in close..

Plus i think that the game should be about finding the right angle and manouvering properly rather than using terrain in all but special scenarios, as for the most part in air to air combat the terrain matters very little.

Your scenario sounds good howeve could be tricky for one thing on a 4x4 table thats goign to have to be a big canyon, depends on the rules but assuming there is a "dive bomb" manouver the imperial player could simple fly. in above the canyon and then dive bomb into the canyon at them end. Also depedns what range bombs have and how their mechanics work as they could just doing a strategic bombing run. hopefully though these dambuster type scenarios wil be playable. if only to give the marauder variant a job..

Darkseer
28-09-2006, 15:52
I'm going to dig out AIR COMBAT on my PS1 and have a play. Some of the missions on that were ace, not to mention the 80's rock pop soundtrack.

orangesm
28-09-2006, 15:58
I agree it that it will be tricky, since we do not have rules. I tried to keep it general as I could to give an example of making 3d manuevering important beyond interacting with other aircraft but also with the terrian itself.
The stepped idea I used for the hive will have to donate the altitude of the level possibly giving terrian the 'flying' base built in.
It will be hard to keep track of who is at what altitude (feasably a clear plastic table could be built with different alts at different heights).
The manouvering aspects will be crucial in terms of the game, but terrian that limits what moves you can make and survive adds that extra dynamic. These rules may have already been included. I dont want to wait!

Tastyfish
28-09-2006, 16:11
I can't see low altitude dogfights being the most common battles going on really, most of it is going to be up high and above obvious obsticles. I imagine that the altitude and speed is going to be the equivalent of terrain (a thunderbolt trying to chase up after a Nightwing or Barracuda that suddenly leaps upwards without losing so much thrust that it lets them get too far away or even stalling).

That said, a couple of special missions set in a 40K cloud city type environment (Phantine or another gas giant) with various large floating obsticles and buildings would certainly be in0teresting. I could also see clouds and the position of the sun being important in a similar way to gothic (or the nearest equivalent depending on the rules).

A base resembling an aerial photo would probbaly look best, and have the option of the tops of really high things like Mountains and Spires coming up from it into the battlefield like Gothic would have a star field under it. Either that or it might be worth seeing if its possible to have a clear board over the top of the one underneath. Less so for the 3D aspect but more so ground defenses and some three dimensional terrain won't interfere with the placement of the cards. Plus it could also be altitude 1 if you have enough insane pilots that want to do fight in Beggar's Canyon or do a Hive world influenced Death Star Trench run.

A really nice 3D board could have the spires (in the case of a Hive world) or mountains acting as the supports for the board if you're really ambitious, with the various terrain bits extending into each altitude level. Would be really nice to play on, but a lot of work and probably quite expensive.

Boss Floata
28-09-2006, 18:46
Well aeral attacks are most often used to take out key objectives in a campaign or to intercept the enemy doing the same to you. much like a dagger to the heart of the enemy rather than the right hook to the face that a siege would accomplish.

interceptions are done at hgh levels as bombing Formations fly at hig cruising levels on their way to the target as to ocnserve fuel, so no intruding terrain there.

Objectives usually consist of factories or airfields situated outside of the main Bulk of their defences, so things like fights amost inside Hives would be impossible and impractical. The forgeworld stand had 2 boards, one was a desert board with what seemed to be a listening post and the other a sea based board with an orky island landing strip with a small island as some sort of air traffic control i believe, so terrain is gonna be pretty low level not just for practicality, but forthe fact that airfields and stuff like that really arn't that tall, and an alt. 2 structure is gonna be at least the size of a 7 story building by what i saw.

If you want a canyon run the canyon walls would be altitude 3-4 i would expect, but it would be pointless. you would have to do a fixed board as it would be impossible with scatter scenery and then you have a board that can only be used for AI and only for specific scenarios.

Tastyfish
28-09-2006, 18:52
I was thinking that I'd probably end up doing an AI board anyway really, chances are it will be flat enough to store easily anyway (unlike some others..cityfight I'm looking at you). If you were interested in creating a canyon run, if you made it modular there is still the option of having it techincally being two really close to gether cliffs. In a 40K game they would be spread out and formed into either a large shelflike cliff or into several seperate mesas.

The FW boards are going to be simple - they need to practice the game on the boards that are most commonly going to be used and with the fewest wierd things. Wouldn't suprise me though if we started seeing a set of wierder and more complicated ones a bit later though. (maybe even from me, a gas giant city (probably Tau) is slowly starting to tempt me, possibly even for 40K and the wierder multilayer clear perspex one is also tempting - especially combined with a floating city and a choice of underlay battlemats)

orangesm
28-09-2006, 20:30
I can't see low altitude dogfights being the most common battles going on really, most of it is going to be up high and above obvious obsticles. I imagine that the altitude and speed is going to be the equivalent of terrain (a thunderbolt trying to chase up after a Nightwing or Barracuda that suddenly leaps upwards without losing so much thrust that it lets them get too far away or even stalling).

Your right, I do not see low altitude dogfights as well, but attack runs being done at low altitude to hit precision/hardened/specific targets. Non-precision guided munitions (dumb bombs) are the weapons that will be used by Imperials/Chaos/Orks and so the aircraft have to make up for it by getting in close to the target. The Eldar and the Tau are likely to have precision guided munitions which allow them to attack precision/hardened targets from high altitude. A Death Star Run type scenario is also possible.


I could also see clouds and the position of the sun being important...
Or clouds at different altitudes could obscure line of sight. High Tech (ie Modern) Aircraft with Hi Tech munitions can target through this cloud cover, but once again Imperial/Chaos/Orks do not have access/understanding of/ability to use this advanced weaponary - which leads to a more World War II style use of those Air Forces. Tau and Eldar should be able to use more modern tactics in some instances, fx Tau hitting a target through cloud cover, drone relays what it sees on the way in and the pilot guides it in (real life: US fighter pilots regularly do this).

A base resembling an aerial photo would probbaly look best, and have the option of the tops of really high things like Mountains and Spires coming up from it into the battlefield
I agree if you are saying that dropping below 1,000 feet kills the aircraft (US fighter/attack aircraft train at 500 feet or below), alot of this stuff is going to be well over 10,000 feet tall and can literally be fought around in terms of air combat.

interceptions are done at hgh levels as bombing Formations fly at hig cruising levels on their way to the target as to ocnserve fuel, so no intruding terrain there.
Depends. Yes this is true for long drawn out campaigns where both sides have large infrastructures supporting their war effort on the planet being fought over. This is not true of smaller campaigns, for example the Taros Campaign, where smaller forces are dedicated and the objective is not the utter annaliation/capitulation of the enemy. In this sort of engagement your aircraft will be making attacks against the enemies army and military support structure while leaving the population intact.

Objectives usually consist of factories or airfields situated outside of the main Bulk of their defences, so things like fights amost inside Hives would be impossible and impractical.
Or the objectives will be behind their main defense line heavily defended by local AA and Aircraft. In terms of military actions fights around/above hives actually are very important, I would hate to be a sieging force attacking a hive without having at least my own air cover and hopefully air support. The Bombers in Double Eagle are striking going after massive land carriers and were probably striking at the Chaos occupied hive before the Army's assault failed. It is not impossible or impractical - it is actually something you have to eventually do. The USAF did not like going to Baghdad with non-stealth aircraft because it was basicly a fortress of AA and SAMs, but sometimes the stealth could not do the mission, so it had to be done.

If you want a canyon run the canyon walls would be altitude 3-4 i would expect, but it would be pointless. you would have to do a fixed board as it would be impossible with scatter scenery and then you have a board that can only be used for AI and only for specific scenarios.
I disagree in that it does not require a fixed table, but rather a table covered in hills that make it all very tight. Ridges that reach up to alt 3 are not a bad idea. Put lots off AA up on those Ridges but not in the valleys and suddenly the only way to the target is through those valleys. Any terrain for IA that I make I will also use in Epic as they are on similiar scales.

In general the game scale that most people will play a(12 aircraft being the average game) are not the massive waves of bombers that are sent on deep attack missions to level an enemy's supporting infrastructure, these are generally missions against targets like forward airfields, weapons/fuel depots, etc. But another option is larger games fought around hives or over large cities.

I will not pretend to speak from a rules stand point on this but rather from my knowledge of Airpower theory, doctrine, and history.

Yes I realize that was long winded.

Boss Floata
28-09-2006, 21:07
Thing is, all the curves are pre determined, your gonna have to plot out flight paths and make canyons accordingly.

Tastyfish
28-09-2006, 21:15
If they're modular canyon walls/mesa sections/cliff faces then you can pretty much arrange them to fit. I wouldn't start making a board though before getting the book, if only as some of the maneuvers might make interesting options in the canyon - a fast but hard section and a easier but slower one etc

orangesm
28-09-2006, 21:31
The curves may be pre-determined, but so is the max turn rate of real aircraft, my view is that the player has to work with the terrain, not the terrain with the player. A player would have to think more than one or two moves ahead in order to avoid crashing into terrain. Yes, best to make it so that the aircraft themselves can fit in the area, but that does not mean that a particular area would have to be 5" wide to allow an aircraft to enter and then exit the area safely.
A flat table allows the players to do whatever move they want to respond to a particular situation. Adding terrain that makes some moves more deadly than having someone on your tail limits the number of moves you can make.
What options did the X-Wings on the Death Star run have? What options do Helicopters in Afghanistan have? Not the full range of their normal options but more limited ones.

Gen.Steiner
28-09-2006, 23:11
The easiest table to make is a drawn one, with contour lines for cliffs, hills and the like.

Flat as a pancake, with targets painted on, and all the landmarks drawn out nicely. Then everyone's happy. :D

Of course, you can't then play Epic on it at the same time... :p

ml2sjw
28-09-2006, 23:28
The USAF did not like going to Baghdad with non-stealth aircraft because it was basicly a fortress of AA and SAMs, but sometimes the stealth could not do the mission, so it had to be done.

Persoanally i prefere a quote attributed to a former british air marshal when the uk was offered stealth tech in exchange for something else, "whats the point, fly fast and low enough and all the enemy will see as they look out over their smoking ruined airfeild, is you contrail..."

Seriously though from what i understand the game is meant to be air to air combat. The missions your describing seem to be more attackers vs. defenses and terrain. To go back to an analogy you used. Your talking about playing games in the death star trench when the game is the fighter battle above the trench True for special occasions it might be fun but for your average game its just seems to complicated and without enough tactical flare. e.f a big point seems to be the correct use of altitude and manovers in your canyons niether of these would matter.the defending player just need sto manover above the canyons then drop in and tail them untill they are destoryed, unless the gain altitude out of the trench and well the trench doesn't matter anymore.

i really think you're thinking to much about terrain in a game that is set in the air, terrain for the most part will be to make the game look pretty in my opinion

your example of X-Wings on the Death Star run have? What options do Helicopters in Afghanistan have? are an odd selection but just to point up neither is air to air combat ut combat against ground targets.....

cpl_hicks
28-09-2006, 23:34
what about planets that have high mountain ranges & canyons, where the only avaliable airspace might be the space in a canyon.

now i know this would be rare but it would still make an exciting operation

orangesm
29-09-2006, 00:17
Every Air-to-Air missions does not occur unless there is a ground/high value air target for other aircraft to attack. I do not conduct Sweep missions just to conduct Sweep missions. I have some Strike mission I want to happen, some ground target or objective I want to met. Even if my goal is to just keep the enemy Air Force on the ground I have to be able to strike at their Air Bases, Air Defenses over their country, and then can fly missions to shoot them down as they come out of their remaining air bases.

You do not fly Air-to-Air just to shoot each other down. Battle of Britian, the classic Air Battle was fought to defend ground targets such as cities from bombing raids. So you still have to eventually attack ground/high value air targets to have Air-to-Air battles. Yes you can have high altittude combat between two flights of fighters, one protecting bombers the others attacking it, but that will get rather repeative rather quickly. Now attacking a heavily defended ground target with quiet a bit of ground based air defenses and a few aircraft vs a few flights of Aircraft will change that up. Add in the fact that you have to get in low to attack the target and there are things you might run into on your way in and out and now it is a very different game from two groups of fighters engaging at high altitude (why even have a zero alt at 0 feet when your battle happens between 40k to 50k feet).

Tigerguy
29-09-2006, 06:23
I'm really into this thing about combining the game systems. How about this for a table: Suspend a piece of glass above the table. Play Aeronautica Imperialis on the glass over your game of Epic. This allows for complex terrain on the ground, and a flat, playable surface for your flyers.

Sai-Lauren
29-09-2006, 09:39
Well aeral attacks are most often used to take out key objectives in a campaign or to intercept the enemy doing the same to you. much like a dagger to the heart of the enemy rather than the right hook to the face that a siege would accomplish.

interceptions are done at hgh levels as bombing Formations fly at hig cruising levels on their way to the target as to ocnserve fuel, so no intruding terrain there.


Not necessarily, there've been plenty of low-level raids to try and stay under radar (Dambusters raid for one - one of the crew when interviewed remembered one part of the mission where he looked back and they'd just flown under some power lines :eek: ). Desert Storm and subsequent conflicts have also had small low-level flying raids (Tornados vs Iraqi airfields in DS, stealth aircraft missions and so on).

The big raids by the USAF and Luftwaffe in WW2 were flown at high level (logistics of organising that many aircraft, flying in mutual defence, trying to stay above flak ranges etc), but they're by no means the only possible missions.

Orangesm, there are also CAP (Close Air Patrol), and Air Intercept missions - quite simply, you stick fighters into the air (usually as airborne outriders to a ground force, sometimes simply as a mission in it's own right) and see what comes up to meet you. Anything does, you engage it. Nothing does, you've managed to obtain Air Superiority, and should immediately go hunting for the enemies airfields with packs of fighter-bombers and render them non-operational to ensure you keep it.

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 10:20
I'm really into this thing about combining the game systems. How about this for a table: Suspend a piece of glass above the table.

Great... except... glass!? It's heavy and breakable and expensive. Go for a sheet of clear plastic, the lighter the better.

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 10:28
Seriously though, who is going to play this?
How big does an airforce have to be?

I'm looking at 9 Chaos Hellblades and 4 Helltalon fighter bombers. That comes to £50 and is the cheapest airforce.

How many craft were flying around in the Games Day game?

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 10:29
Um, you could just use the GW aircraft...?

Four Thunderbolts are a tenner, so £20 for eight.
Four Vultures are a tenner.
Two Valyries are seven pounds.
Two Marauders are seven pounds.

A Thunderhawk is nine pounds.

Three Nightwings are nine pounds.
Three Phoenix bombers are nine pounds.
A Vampire Raider is nine pounds.

Three Fighta-Bommaz are nine pounds.
Eight Dethkoptas are seven pounds.
An Ork Landa is nine pounds.

That's three races (more if you can find the old Epic flyers for Chaos and Nids on E-Bay) and all will set you back less than the FW stuff.

Christine
29-09-2006, 10:43
Personally I'm intending to use the forgeworld versions for aces and special crews and the gw stuff for the ording flyers.

Of course that isn't going to stop me from buying a bunch of Lightings!

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 10:46
As I'm not made of money (how I wish I was), I'll be using my five Thunderbolts from my Epic force for the time being, and I shall paint them pleasantly.

I think Christine has the right idea, and I shall shamelessly copy it. :D

Charax
29-09-2006, 10:52
I'll wait and see what the Chaos list's like before planning my squadron, but it will probably contain a lot of conversions and a few made-up ships (I'm an obsessive rules-maker) like a Daemon Engine (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=965008#post965008)

I hope AI gets absorbed into the Specialist Games umbrella, then at least it will benefit from continued support, however small that support may be.

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 10:58
Seriously though, who is going to play this?
How big does an airforce have to be?

I'm looking at 9 Chaos Hellblades and 4 Helltalon fighter bombers. That comes to £50 and is the cheapest airforce.

How many craft were flying around in the Games Day game?

According to some one earlier in the thread.. "
Aircraft can have upgrades such has skystrike misslies and tankbusta rokkits for a certain points cost. a typical game is around 120 points to 180. maximum size they reccomend is 12 aircraft a side. to put this into scale a thunder bolt is 20, an panzee pheonix is 60 and a manta is 96. mantas can infact be upgraded to be about 120 points. 1 manta against 6 thunderbolts

It looks like bombers cost considerably more fighters(although eldar will be more expensive i would think) an attack wing could simply consist of two models.. less if you bought them air to air missiles.. or had gorund defences etc. I would think for your average game half what you are looking at buying would suffice. But we will have to wieght for confirmation.

On a side note the idea of mixing specalist and forge world flyers on the same side.... Will look silly in my opinion due to the massive scale difference think its an either or case...

Charax
29-09-2006, 11:00
how do we know the scale difference is "massive"? I haven't seen any side-by-side comparison shots by which we could make such a judgement.

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:01
If FW do the AI book right, they probably won't need any continued support apart from models.

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 11:08
I disagree. If you use FW models to represent aces, then the size difference isn't a problem - it just means that you get to do a snazzy paint job on your aces! :D

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 11:11
uhm i have in person... Forge world flyers have been round a very long time can't find any pictures online in a quick search but trust me its not somthing you can talk your way out of saying its a different pattern

As for continued support. With forge world i would expect them to have covered everything in the rules we will need... Their shouldn't need to be any continuous adding of units to the game to keep it interesting...

edit found one

http://www.netepic.org/EPICentre/Articles/fwlightreview.php see what i mean, thoguh this is a thunderbolt and a lightening they would look very odd on the same table in my opinion

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 11:17
Meh, I'm not bothered.

I'll just use them for my Aces - big model, better paintjob. :p

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:20
That is a huge scale difference!

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 11:22
told ya :-p

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:25
See, if they were the same scale, I'm sure so many more people would pay out for a squadron.

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 11:29
personally i think the bigger scale is the way to go particually as these are going to be the only models on the board, whils tthe epic ones are fine in epic making attack runs, they would make the game look a bit bare

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 11:32
I've been so excited by the idea of this game, i've already ordered 4 thunderbolts and a marauder from forgeworld.

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 11:34
personally i'm holding off untill the main release, otherwise i know i will end up kicking myslef over starter deals, or the click bases..

orangesm
29-09-2006, 11:34
there are also CAP (Close Air Patrol), and Air Intercept missions - quite simply, you stick fighters into the air (usually as airborne outriders to a ground force, sometimes simply as a mission in it's own right) and see what comes up to meet you. Anything does, you engage it. Nothing does, you've managed to obtain Air Superiority, and should immediately go hunting for the enemies airfields with packs of fighter-bombers and render them non-operational to ensure you keep it.
If both sides throw up CAPs and have Aircraft sitting Alert over their own territory and armies, then they have both achieved Air Superiority, over their own territory. To achieve air superiority over your enemies territory/army you have to also elminate his Air Defense System, be it mobile AA & SAMs or a fixed IADS (Integrated Air Defense System).
I described a package to conduct a strike against a target, you would first Sweep the target area of enemy aircraft, then you would Suppress Enemy Air Defenses (SAMs, AA) SEAD, and then you would strike the target.
Generally a flight on CAP will not go engage an opposing CAP unless it threatens what they are protecting some how. The CAP is what will engage the Strike Package that is going to attack a target that the CAP is defending. In the end you still need a Ground Target as the eventual goal of one of the packages in the game.
To really get the feel of an Air War (not just an air engagement) campaigns will have to be played.


Yes I will be playing this game. I already have 4 Thunderbolts & 2 Maradaurs and will purchase either an Eldar or Tau force once the game is released. I wil also probably expand my Imperial Navy forces to include 2+ Lightnings, and pick up 3 Thunderhawks for both this game and my Epic Marine Army.

Tensor
29-09-2006, 11:41
Waiting, but will probably get.

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 11:41
On the subject of terrain, a beach/sea scenario like the one of those games day pictures with the vampire raider would eb perfect you could have bunkers on the beach or boats out at sea to mount AA on and provide objectives.

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 11:44
Ever considered an Air War campaign involving large maps and little counters being pushed around until they meet?

Hmm... thinking caps on chaps... :D

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 11:46
Ever considered an Air War campaign involving large maps and little counters being pushed around until they meet?

Hmm... thinking caps on chaps... :D

A chance to get the wrafs and wrens involved?

Not that there werent famous female pilots and even aces as well...

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 11:48
Lily Litvak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak) - the White Rose of Stalingrad - springs to mind, as do the rest of the Night Witches.

Three Air Regiments of women pilots were raised by the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War, and one became a Guard Red Banner unit IIRC. There was a night bomber regiment using Po-2 biplanes (the Night Witches, the Germans called them), a day bomber regiment using twin-engine monoplanes, and a fighter regiment (the one Litvak flew with, the 586 IAP).

The best book on the subject is Night Witches by a chap whose name I cannot remember.

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:49
I kind of see the Thunderbolt as the spitfire of the Imperial forces.

Old, reliable and full of ass-kickery!

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 11:51
Lily Litvak - the White Rose of Leningrad - springs to mind, as do the rest of the Night Witches.

Three Air Regiments of women pilots were raised by the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War, and one became a Guard Red Banner unit. There was a night bomber regiment using Po-2 biplanes (the Night Witches, the Germans called them), a day bomber regiment using twin-engine monoplanes, and a fighter regiment (the one Litvak flew with).

The best book on the subject is Night Witches by a chap whose name I cannot remember.


I shall look it up, I was reading antony beevers stalingrad where they mention those biplanes and how just before they attacked the turned off the engines and glided in, which was supposed to absolutely terrifying.

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 11:52
I kind of see the Thunderbolt as the spitfire of the Imperial forces.

Old, reliable and full of ass-kickery!

"snout full of kill-ware" ?

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:53
That too!

It would certainly be a good selling point to get one of my friends into the game.

jfrazell
29-09-2006, 11:53
I would give that moniker to the Lightning. The thunderbolt is more akin to its WWII namesake.

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 11:54
I'm not so keen on the lightning. It looks too much like the hybrid aircraft from Stargat SG1

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 11:57
The Thunderbolt's more like the Hurricane, really - the Lightning is the Spitfire.


I was reading antony beevers stalingrad where they mention those biplanes and how just before they attacked the turned off the engines and glided in, which was supposed to absolutely terrifying.

Yep (it's why the German called 'em Night Witches), but they were hideously slow and their best weapon was surprise, as, quite frankly, an MG and some small bombs isn't the best armament. On one mission they got spotted by German AA, who called in a BF-109G.

Unsurprisingly, the 109G pilot shot down quite a few of them, but he had a hard time doing it, as the Po-2s were so slow - a blessing in disguise!

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 11:57
Personally i prefere the lightening I think a squadren of those vs. a squadren a chaos hell tallons and blades well painted could be one of the most cinematic battles. plus i'll take manouverability and speed over armour and firepower any day..

plus on the ww2 comparisions, thunderbolt = hurracane and lightening = spitfire. But it is far from an exact analogy the difference in armaments is the big deal

Gen.Steiner
29-09-2006, 12:00
Ah-hah!

The 46th Taman Guards Night Bomber Aviation Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches) is the one I was gibbering about. :D

Me, I like the T-bolt. But if I was an IN pilot I'd want to fly a Marauder destroyer, mmmm, nose guns...!

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 12:18
The Thunderbolt's more like the Hurricane, really - the Lightning is the Spitfire.



Yep (it's why the German called 'em Night Witches), but they were hideously slow and their best weapon was surprise, as, quite frankly, an MG and some small bombs isn't the best armament. On one mission they got spotted by German AA, who called in a BF-109G.

Unsurprisingly, the 109G pilot shot down quite a few of them, but he had a hard time doing it, as the Po-2s were so slow - a blessing in disguise!


Just like the Stringbag! and they crippled the bismark

The thunderbolt is going to be able to stick it out much longer in a dogfight becuase of its armour and extra payload, as well as it being just as manouverable because its vtol as well, as Dan abbett mentions in double eagle "you fly the thunderbolt for the joy of killing and the lightning for the joy of flying"

Getz
29-09-2006, 12:19
The Thunderbolt's more like the Hurricane, really - the Lightning is the Spitfire.


Nah, if the Lighting is a Spitfire, the T-bolt is a Typhoon...

If I were a Fighter Pilot I'd opt for the Lighting probably, the extra speed and agility will keep you alive, but as a general I favour the T-bolt. It's a devestating ground attack platform and a mean air superiority fighter rolled into one...

Bravery exists
29-09-2006, 12:23
Nah, if the Lighting is a Spitfire, the T-bolt is a Typhoon...

If I were a Fighter Pilot I'd opt for the Lighting probably, the extra speed and agility will keep you alive, but as a general I favour the T-bolt. It's a devestating ground attack platform and a mean air superiority fighter rolled into one...


I see the lightning more like a zero, extremely manouverable but poorly armoured.

Darkseer
29-09-2006, 12:32
If small engagement sizes are between 6 and 12 craft, what would you take in your 6 craft formation and your 12 craft formation?

librerian_samae
29-09-2006, 12:43
I would probably play mostly the lower end of the scale,

so for imperial I would run:

3 lightnings, 2 thunderbolts and a marauder

for tau:

4 baracudas and 2 tigersharks

for bigger games I would probably steer more towards imperial
so I could have greater unit varity and add in some valkeries,
vultures and a few more fighters

ml2sjw
29-09-2006, 14:04
If small engagement sizes are between 6 and 12 craft, what would you take in your 6 craft formation and your 12 craft formation?

ok its point based not hull based for a start making this a rather tricky exercise but. I'd like to have to squadrons to play 120point games(the equivilant of a 1500 40k game)

For imperials its got to be lightenings for me. 4 of the air to air version and 2 of the ground attack assuming that fits under the points limit, once i have bought my air to air missiles and depending on the points costs

Second squaren would be chaos, looking at it the hell blade may be the cheapest fighter in the game only being armed with twin linked autcannons, so they must be cheaper than the much heavier armed thunderbolt. Maybe 5 ish hellblades and a couple of helltalon.

Does very much depend on the mission though...