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MonkeyKnifeFighter
20-06-2005, 08:53
Maybe it's just me and the store I hang out at, but we've been getting the feeling like GW is playing leapfrog with the codicies. When the new Space Marine codex came out, everyone said, "Wow Space Marines are really good." Some thought there was some broken stuff, but mostly it was just a powerful army list. Now that the new Tyranid codex has come out, however, there's been a lot of people refusing to play Tyranids, and after the battle I had last night, I think I'm going to join them.

The new Carnifex is stupid. It's just plain stupid. For 250 points you can get something that no tank can kill, but something that can kill just about any tank in one round of shooting, while moving. It will kill anything in close combat. It's good against everything. Yeah, there's a lot of armchair-general "oh well you do XYZ and it's easy", bull. It's stupid and broken, that's the only way to describe it. In 2000 points you can have two tooled-up Carnifexes, and two tooled-up Hive-Tyrants, and then an army after that. There is no possible way to kill 4 beasts like this unless you design a list specifically to do just that. What about the Tyranid player, though? Well You give one a venom cannon, one a barbed strangler, etc and you are good against any army you come up against. Orks with choppas...right, sure. You can find examples to counter this if you want to sit back and try, but the 'nid player just has to sit back and shoot pieplates into the Orks from the table edge. It's in Synapse range, it won't run.

So to the point, though...does it feel like GW keeps making one codex better than the next? The Brettonian fantasy list was like this too. This wouldn't be a huge problem except that they won't fix the list. It's not like a powerful Magic card that will just get banned or anything; this codex will be around for years, and this is only the second of the 4th edition codexes. Is this going to be the standard now? I can't wait for Black Templars. They're already a list that I think is unnecesasary and potentially overpowered, they'll probably leapfrog the Tyranids. Maybe it's just me, but I'm really thinking that, given the latest rash of stupid things GW has done, this may just be what they are going for.

Catterjee
20-06-2005, 09:01
What you refer to is known to many as "Codex Creep"

Personally, I don't worry about it too much. When a new codex comes out, people always cry foul about some "unbeatable" tactic/combo/whatever. Then a few weeks pass and someone figures out how to beat it.

MidnightResistance
20-06-2005, 09:11
The Carnifex has always been sick. There's nothing new about that

owen matthew
20-06-2005, 09:12
As long as the MCs are not winged, then just ignore them and kill the rest of the army. The more MCs they have, the less that they have moving fast. The fast stuff is the problem, back out of MC line of sight and out of charge range and you will win on points every time. It is the only way I can consistantly beat them. It is the same as in 3rd ed. essentially- just now you can waste more points in the big slow stuff, giving you less fast stuff to worry about. Seriously, the more MCs, the more the Tyranid player is shooting himself in the foot. Look out for the Winged HT and all the fast rending stuff.

My friend is doing 45 warriors(27 flying w/ rending and tallons) with a flying tyrant and flying rippers for troops. This gives me nightmares.

Gaebriel
20-06-2005, 09:23
This might be the the exact meaning of codex creep, but GW is known to make each new codex slightly overpowered in an area. Add to this some hard propaganda, and the "never fought this before", and they will get more people to buy that new army. It's a marketing ploy in my eyes. As been said, it will wear down with the time.

Don't let "the Terror" effect you - the player http://www.portent.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif And if it annoys you too much, try a tooled anti-list. I see nothing wrong with that. As every over-specialized army, Tyranids are tooled towards one aspect from the start...

Lion El Jason
20-06-2005, 09:31
Well...Codex creep exists... Apart from the =I= codexes all the "4th ed ready" and the 4th ed marine codex are much more powerful than many of the others. Chaos is easily the most powerful list in 40k followed by Guard then marines.

Tyranids however have been down-powered since the last codex. Carnifex are more powerful but start off weaker for the same cost and they are still easier to kill than a wraithlord (Because bolters can hurt them). But its a much better codex, easier to use, clearer....

So to answer your question, YES codex creep exists (Just look at the old marine codex compared to the new one) but its not too much of a problem and 'nids havn't suffered from it much at all.

What your friends are experiencing is commonly known as "The Fear". This happens everytime a new book is released and the first few games people will not know exactly what to expect and so when the powerful things appear, they seem broken at first.

Emperor's Light
20-06-2005, 09:34
Hmm...I felt that codex creep was kept under control for the most part under 3rd ed. I haven't played the new Nids yet nor have I even had a chance to seriously look through the codex. However, I would hate to see 4th ed. degenerate because of codex creep.

Peter
20-06-2005, 10:04
I know what you mean. My best mate plays them and always goes for the big bugs and fills out as much as he can with genestealers. It is kind of hard to kill core troops that have a weapon skill the same as my warboss and I cant out shoot them. They can beat me in almost every aspect of the game! Combat shooting he wins every time, I cant even make the most aof power of the waaaaagh because he has that extended charge thingo so I can never get a charge in, therefore he hits first leaving nothing to fight back then consolidates out of charge range and charges the next unit next turn!

philbrad2
20-06-2005, 10:18
Hmm...I felt that codex creep was kept under control for the most part under 3rd ed.

I'd disagree with that with the earlier codicies. Later ones became more balanced certainly. There was a tendancy in early 3rd ed that players could field armies that were either uber (BA/Eldar) or sucked (Chaos).

Codex creep has been around for nigh on 10 years now. Just because you've built up an army to counter one threat which then has that threat change with a new codex release is part of the game. Remember ADAPT, IMPROVISE, OVERCOME! There is no such thing as an unbeatable army. Good slot choices and tactics yes, an opponent with these will be difficult to beat.

I buy every codex that comes out but don't collect every army. I like to research all the armies to look for strengths and weaknesses and developing units/tactics to take on all armies is part of the challenge of the game. After all for all the nice miniatures, 40K is a tabletop strategy game. Some armies rely on the tactics/strategy of their commander rather than simple brute force.

:chrome:

icharus
20-06-2005, 10:23
I know what you mean, I fought against genestealers on saturday and my BT's didn't stand a chance the guy had first turn he moved then fleet of clawed a further six inches then assaulted and was in my deployment zone before firing a single shot.

Adept
20-06-2005, 10:28
You have to be kidding right? Codex creep? The new Nid codex is, at best, on a par with the Marines. In general, the new Marine codex is superior.

You have problems with the Carnifexes? Sounds like you don't have enough anti-tank weapons. Try taking a Lascannon Predator and a squad of Lascannon armed Devastators. It's hardly a dedicated anti-tank army since most armies will have some form of armour, and you do need something to take out AS2+ models like terminators.

PBGhost
20-06-2005, 10:30
How Icharus? Average board is 48 inches, with 12 inch deployment zones and 24.1 inches between the opposing forces. Even if you both deployed 12, he scouted 6, moved 6, fleeted 6 and charged 6, he would be .1 inch out. Unless, of course, you were playing Recon or another unusual scenario.

Lion El Jason
20-06-2005, 10:32
icharus. He shouldn't be able to do that... You start further away than his charge range (24") in all missions except cleanse.

Another point: Chaos is by far the most powerful list in 40k. This dosent mean it produces armies that are massivly more powerful though. Chaos are slightly better than most other armies. Guard are slightly better.
Other armies (Orks) are slightly worse. In general, its not going to make too much difference unless exploited and abused (Saim hann...)

Karhedron
20-06-2005, 11:14
TMCs are slow (apart from the infamous winged Tyrants). If buys 4 big ones then that is about 1000 points sunk into models that excel in close combat but only move 6" per turn.

At the end of the day you can just run away from the big stuff and shoot up the smaller stuff. Whether this is feasible or not does depend on the mission to some extent but if the Nid player only has 4 slow scoring units left then he will have a hard time on a lot fights.

This is something that any army can do, they do not need to be tricked out to kill TMCs. It is a mistake to think that shooty armies can only stand still and try to kill combat units before they reach your lines. Tau may epitomise the concept of a tactical withdrawal but any army can do the same thing.

icharus
20-06-2005, 13:07
just didn't think he would be that lucky on the 1st turn.

Mr Evil
20-06-2005, 15:29
Have you ever played against late 3rd edition 'nids? Carnifexes usually had 2 Venom Cannons (4 STR10 shots), now it's useless to take more than one. Most of the good units also had cheaper biomorphs/base prices. 4th edition nids have gone down in power/effectiveness, not too much, but noticibly so for those who were very familiar with the 3rd ed codex. The new 'nids codex is the first one to not have 'codex creep'.

Tyranids are a unique army, they play differently than others because everything is mobile and it has many quick moving units.

If you play either Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and refuse to play Tyranids because you think THEY'RE cheesy, you'd be quite a joke to me.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 16:06
You want to nail the 'fex and the tyrant? Plasma weapons, lascannons, Demolisher cannons. All are AP2, all are relatively strong. Focus fire, eliminate one threat at a time by pouring all firepower into that target until it is dead. Kill them, do not leave them on 1 wound as they will regenerate at least 1 wound and that is unacceptable. Next turn, nail the next threat. Rinse and repeat. Mop-up with infantry. :D

This works incredibly well for guard, btw. :cool:

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 16:18
The new Carnifex is stupid. It's just plain stupid. For 250 points you can get something that no tank can kill, but something that can kill just about any tank in one round of shooting, while moving.This is just a plain exageration. One, you shouldn't be using tanks to kill a Carnifex. A 4 Lascannon Devastator squad (or its equivilant in other codexs) will make short work of a Carnifex usually in1 or 2 rounds. The best a Carnifex can do shooting vs. Tanks is a Venom Cannon, and even then it only glances. Second best is a Barbed Strangler which maxs out at S8. This will again, only glance anything with a AV 14. It seems to me that this appears to be following the pattern I always see of a new codex comes out and you have two opposing groups. People who love it because its got some new, powerful stuff, and those who hate because its got some new, powerful stuff. In the end, its just as balanced and fair as the rest and only requires you to figure out to either play with it or play versus it. People still rant about Daemonhunters being a weak list and its really a quite powerful one if you figure out how to use it (which most people don't). I personally welcome the Carnifex strength, even though they are not indestructable, they are indeed better than they were in 3e. Nothing would **** you off more than to watch your supposed bio-tank get killed by a single round of bolter fire. Its about time they got their dues.


I know what you mean, I fought against genestealers on saturday and my BT's didn't stand a chance the guy had first turn he moved then fleet of clawed a further six inches then assaulted and was in my deployment zone before firing a single shot.Impossible. In every scenario, 24" is the closest you can start from you opponent unless you infiltrate, which Genestealers do not. If he bought scuttlers for them, he could get a scout move which would allow it, but that would require a 6 on his fleet die. Possible, but not gonna happen every game.

Kiro
20-06-2005, 16:25
The Carnifex now has regenerate!?!? :eek:

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 16:34
The Carnifex now has regenerate!?!? :eek:Nice, but not all powerful. Only works on a 6.

Ruskins
20-06-2005, 16:36
Regenerate on a roll of a 6 only, one dice per wound 'i think'

salty
20-06-2005, 16:38
I think Brimstone posted somewhere that the new Carnifex, if properly tooled up, can have something stupid like 15 attacks. In general, all 40k based games suffer from "creep". One need only look at the new BFG fleets they keep bringing out (exception with the Tau) to see that whenever they bring something new out it is insanely powerful. I am thinking here of the Necron fleets which are so cheesy its criminal.

Salty :)

sigur
20-06-2005, 16:41
This whole creep thing is to support sales I assume. Everything is getting more powerful as it receives a new 'dex. Let's face it: 40k will never be balanced and GW doesn't want it to be. (even if we ignore the massive preference Space Marines receive)

Catterjee
20-06-2005, 17:36
I think Brimstone posted somewhere that the new Carnifex, if properly tooled up, can have something stupid like 15 attacks.
I thought stats capped at 10?

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 17:47
I thought stats capped at 10?10 is the highest a stat can be base, but this can be modified with other things. But to correct the Carnifexes 15 attack exageration, Crushing Claws , Scything Talons, Tusked, and Scythe Tail will allow the following. D6+3 attacks on the charge and d3 at half strength if in BTB with 4 or more models. Thats max of 12 if you roll a 6 twice. After first round it is D6+1 and d3 if in BTB with 4 or more models. Otherwise its just D6+1 standard. Sounds like people are just blowing off steam to me.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 18:00
I did check the 'stat-cap' thing. The limit is 10, unfortunately(even after boosts). That doesn't stop house rules though... :D I don't mind carnifexes charging my infantry or tanks with 15 attacks. It seems appropriate somehow...

blitz589
20-06-2005, 18:03
scything talons = 1
Bio plasma = 1
Tail = d3
claws = d6
tusk = 2
Total = 6-13 attacks

Shadow Weaver
20-06-2005, 18:07
I have only played Nids once, 1100pts - 2 Carnifex's 1 assault monster, 1 Shooty, 1 shooty Hive Tyrant with guard and lots of gaunts.

Played all mobile eldar, tanks could only be glanced due to weapon rules, massed AP2 long range fire destroyed his shooty carnifex by 2nd turn and had started on tyrant gaurd, by turn 3 Hive tyrant dead and 1 swarm of gaunts, turn 5 all dead.

His gaunts S3 couldn't even hurt the rear armour of my tanks.

I know there are some genestealer only armies out there which are very scary but consider dev squads with only Hv Bolters, small sqauds that will die in 1 turn of combat leaving a D6 consolidation zone and massed rapid firing bolters. Assualt cannons- dont leave home without them. Tyranids scare me less than they did before even with SMurfs.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 18:38
I did check the 'stat-cap' thing. The limit is 10, unfortunately(even after boosts). That doesn't stop house rules though... :D I don't mind carnifexes charging my infantry or tanks with 15 attacks. It seems appropriate somehow...You have a rule to back up the "even after boosts" part?

Kahadras
20-06-2005, 18:49
The main thing that annoys me is second turn charge with the Tyranids. IMO you need at least two good turns of shooting to be able to wear them down enough to survive close combat. Now the Tyranids have multiple units that can effect a second turn charge (amoung them infiltraiting Genestealers, Lictors and flying Hive Tyrants). This is bad news as far as I can see because an army will struggle to do enough damage before being swarmed by the rest of the army.

Kahadras

Catterjee
20-06-2005, 18:50
You have a rule to back up the "even after boosts" part?
I checked. BGB page 12. "All characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10."

MorningStar
20-06-2005, 18:50
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid codex yet, but myself and a friend of mine wouuld play any nid army. We wouldn't care if you had five or six carnifexes or HTs. As long as we get to use the titan. :)

Wolf Scout Ewan
20-06-2005, 18:59
The joys of codex creep.

What is worse though is when different designers have different views on how the game should be played.... and u end up with underpowered and unbalanced armies.

swanson4969
20-06-2005, 19:00
Just a question about the charging aspect. Can't genestealers infiltrate now?

Kahadras
20-06-2005, 19:04
Can't genestealers infiltrate now?

Only when led by the Broodlord.

Kahadras

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 19:07
I checked with GW staff and GW helpdesk. Both said the same. Stats max out at 10. However, as I said, nothing stops house rules.

sulla
20-06-2005, 19:11
Well...Codex creep exists... Apart from the =I= codexes all the "4th ed ready" and the 4th ed marine codex are much more powerful than many of the others. Chaos is easily the most powerful list in 40k followed by Guard then marines.
.

Eh? :wtf: That doesn't make sense...

Chaos are more powerful than guard who are more powerful than marines who are more powerful than Tyranids...

That means GW are making each successive codex LESS powerful than the last.

That is the opposite of codex crep. :wtf:

MonkeyKnifeFighter
20-06-2005, 19:35
Ok. Like I said, you can find specific examples that will back your point up of, "Oh the Carnifex isn't that good, blah blah, because you can take an XYZ squad and it's dead." Great, that's fantastic. You are just renforcing my point, which is: The only way to kill the damn things is to tailor your list to kill them. On the other hand, they are good against everything. They aren't just good in close combat, that's the thing. If they were unstoppable in close combat, I wouldn't have a problem. My problem is they are walking tanks that take no penalties for shooting while advancing. Yeah, I bet the 'nid player is just crying that his beast has to footslog it across the table while popping off 3 S10 shots per turn. They can even be twin linked, if you want.


Regenerate works like this: If you have 3 wounds down, at the start of each turn, you roll 3 dice, for every 6 you regenerate a wound.

Take a devistator team with all Lascannons. So you have one team that could maybe, if the Carnifex isn't totally tooled up, kill one of them in a turn if you get lucky. There are 3 other TMCs on the table, plus about 1000 points (in a standard tourney) of swarm or Lictors or floating-brains etc...what are they doing. What is the rest of your army doing. This armchair general stuff is, and has always been, crap. You can't take the damn things down, not all of them. And when you do, you just killed 250 points...and it took you at least 2 turns. Not a good trade.

Remember, you are trying to accomplish a mission. For example, 48" table, 12" deployment zone, the objective is 12" from deployment. That's two turns of movement. (Don't forget, all Tyranids roll 3d6 for difficult terran and the Carifex/Hive Tyrant reroll because they are monsterous...they are going to get their difficult terrain tests) So what are you going to do? Are you going to wait for the nids to get to the objective and then try to kill them? That would be suicide. Are you going to try to get their first? Well then you will be in close-combat with the units in question, and their backup...that's not so good either.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 21:14
I checked. BGB page 12. "All characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10."I got the characteritic part, now wheres the 'even after boosts' part?


Ok. Like I said, you can find specific examples that will back your point up of, "Oh the Carnifex isn't that good, blah blah, because you can take an XYZ squad and it's dead." Great, that's fantastic. You are just renforcing my point, which is: The only way to kill the damn things is to tailor your list to kill them. On the other hand, they are good against everything. They aren't just good in close combat, that's the thing. If they were unstoppable in close combat, I wouldn't have a problem. My problem is they are walking tanks that take no penalties for shooting while advancing. Yeah, I bet the 'nid player is just crying that his beast has to footslog it across the table while popping off 3 S10 shots per turn. They can even be twin linked, if you want. So let me see if I understand you. You want to be able to kill everything in a Tyranind list with a bolter? You know, if you want to get silly I can say that the SM list is ridiculous because I can't kill a Land Raider with a bolter. Or maybe say can't kill a Wraithlord with a bolter. Or how about can't kill a Monolith with a bolter. But wait! It is possible still, even after a revision, to kill a Carnifex with a bolter. Man, but are they overpowered. Right tool for the right job. In other words, stop trying to hammer nails with a screwdriver. You want to kill a tank, use anti-tank weapons. You want to kill infantry, use anti-infantry. What your post is beginning to sound like, is you don't know how to play your list, or how you opponents play theirs, you got soundly stomped because of this lack of knowledge, and now the 'Nids are ultra-powerful. There is nothing in the new 'Nid codex that is in any way shape or form overpowered. It is a very balanced list IMHO. Just like the new Space Marine list. Every edition of 40k, just like Fantasy, gets better as far as balance is concerned.

salty
20-06-2005, 21:23
Base 2
Scytals +1
Crushing Claws D6
Bioplasma +1 (with restrictions)
Tusked +2 on the charge
Scythe Tail D3 (at half strength)

So assuming you make all the max rolls and you have enough oponents to use the tail attacks (there are restrictions) you can have a maximum of 15 attacks on the charge.

Costs far less than a Land Raider though but that's without some of the sexier biomorphs.

Edit - Oh Bioplasma as well I didn't count that so thats 15 in total.

15 attacks for a maxed out Carnifex. Base = 2. Hence, it is legal, its base stats do not exceed 10. To my knowledge, there is no rule that says stats must not exceed 10 even after upgrades.

Salty :)

Brimstone
20-06-2005, 21:27
I was wrong though I forgot crushing claws replace base attacks so remove 2 from that to a max of 13.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 21:29
15 attacks for a maxed out Carnifex. Base = 2. Hence, it is legal, its base stats do not exceed 10. To my knowledge, there is no rule that says stats must not exceed 10 even after upgrades.

Salty :)Only problem with that is the Crushing Claws replaces the base 2 characteristic with a D6. The max is as I posted earlier, save I forgot a single Bio-plasma attack. He will get 13 max, and only with lucky dice and meeting certain criteria. To break it down again.

D6 base------->Crushing Claws
+1-------------->Scything Talons
+2 Charge---->Tusked
D3-------------->Scythe Tail (Half Strength only if 4 enemies in BTB)
+1-------------->Bio-plasma


Thats a 6-13 and only if he charges and is in BTB with 4 models and rolls a 6 for Crushing Claws and a 5 or 6 for Scythe Tail. If he is charged and not in BTB with 4 enemies, its only D6+1+1 for Bio-Plasma. He will minimum have 3 max 8.

EDIT: :p I see you got it Brimstone. I must of been typing when you posted.

MonkeyKnifeFighter
20-06-2005, 21:39
Alright, whatever. All I know is there are now 2 'nid players who are switching armies because they refuse to play their army anymore because of how stupidly overpowered it is, and everyone in the store who plays against the 'nids thinks the same thing.

Clearly you completely missed my point on this whole thing, so please feel free to continue to mock me and try to convince everyone that I want to kill Tyranids with a butter-knife.

Jeru
20-06-2005, 21:42
tails are if only MORE then four enemies are in base contact. I may have read that wrong, but I am pretty sure its 5+

to the original poster. I am a tyranid player and the first thing i did after I picked up my codex was think of the numerous ways my "impoved" army could be defeated. Believe me there are a lot of things you can do.

The carnifex shoots 2 times w/ a venom cannon and they can't twin link them.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 21:42
Alright, whatever. All I know is there are now 2 'nid players who are switching armies because they refuse to play their army anymore because of how stupidly overpowered it is, and everyone in the store who plays against the 'nids thinks the same thing.

Clearly you completely missed my point on this whole thing, so please feel free to continue to mock me and try to convince everyone that I want to kill Tyranids with a butter-knife.It sounded to me like you were the one trying to convince people that Bro. I was trying to show you that they are not all powerful. Every time a new codex comes out, you get the same "So-and-so is uber powerful now man. Just cheesed out!" posts almost like clockwork. Then, couple months of playing down the road, once they figured out how to play them, they are not all that powerful anymore.


tails are if only MORE then four enemies are in base contact. I may have read that wrong, but I am pretty sure its 5+

to the original poster. I am a tyranid player and the first thing i did after I picked up my codex was think of the numerous ways my "impoved" army could be defeated. Believe me there are a lot of things you can do.

The carnifex shoots 2 times w/ a venom cannon and they can't twin link them.I re-read the tail entry and you are indeed correct. So there must be 5+ models in BTB.

As for the Venom Cannon, pg 30 first paragraph, last sentence says if a Tyranid carries 2 of the same weapon they count as twin-linked.

Jeru
20-06-2005, 22:02
ah yes, touché.

MonkeyKnifeFighter
20-06-2005, 22:08
My point isn't that you can't beat them. Far from it. My point is you have to specifically take units to beat them that can't do anything else. In a tournament situation, making an all-commers list etc, I don't think that it is realistic to say that having 2 Carnifexes and 2 Hive Tyrants on the table is very beatable. The TMCs will go for the objectives, and you will be stuck with some very difficult decisions as to how to play your list. I'm not talking about a game where your buddy plays his 'nids and you play your whatevers. Sure you don't know exactly what he is going to field, but you at least know you are playing Tyranids.

PlagueSquirrel
20-06-2005, 22:10
There is nothing that says base attacks can't surpass 10, but instead it says "Characteristics are measured from 0-10." Logically, this means no characteristic can ever surpass 10 on any model, anywhere. What can happen though is with things like attacks, you can make extra attacks without the attacks being from your characteristic, Attacks. You have to look at the bonus in question (and this could go for all stats but I think Attacks is the only stat with non-characteristic bonuses). GW capitalizes stat names. If it says +somany Attacks, then it can't take you over 10, but if it gives you +somany extra attacks then you can make more than 10 attacks (but that doesn't mean your Attacks stat is over 10). Like any other stat, Attacks cannot go over 10 (Don't just look at base - there is nothing that says only base can't go over 10), but you can make more than 10 attacks, it just depends on the context of the codex and whether or not the word attacks is capitalized. Check out some wargear and situations that allow you to make extra attacks or give you extra Attacks. There is a difference.

Also, while I haven't examined the new 'nid codex yet, I highly doubt it's as overpowered as you say. If you can't deal with a carnifex, then how are you going to deal with a tank? TMCs are the tank equivilent of 'nids. Maybe tanks don't have as many wounds, but then again tanks are harder to hurt with bolters. Don't tailor your army against Tyranid armies, but instead tailor your tactics (Considering you can change those every game with no trouble).

-Edit- Fixed a freak insert key accident :eyebrows:

Karhedron
20-06-2005, 22:16
Alright, whatever. All I know is there are now 2 'nid players who are switching armies because they refuse to play their army anymore because of how stupidly overpowered it is, and everyone in the store who plays against the 'nids thinks the same thing.

Clearly you completely missed my point on this whole thing, so please feel free to continue to mock me and try to convince everyone that I want to kill Tyranids with a butter-knife.
No one is mocking you, we are just old hands who have heard this before. When the new Chaos codex was released a couple of years ago you could hear the cries of cheese from the rooftops. People launched diatribes against the hideously overpowered daemon princes that could be created as well as other things that made the list overpowered.

If they had been right then the Grand Tournements that year would have had Chaos armies winning all over the place and this was not the case.

Yes you can create a fearsomely effective Fex that will kill almost anything it comes across. For the points it costs you should be able to. You can also create a maxed out Daemon Prince who can wreak similar carnage on the enemy.

It is not giant killing machines that win battles in general, it is the rank and file troops. Sure a fex will rip apart the average unit of troops in close combat but then he costs far more than most squads. For the cost of a maxed out fex or DP, I can buy a well tooled up squad of Space Marines complete with veteran Sergent and a Transport. In a one-on-one fist fight the fex would probably win but in most tactical situations the squad of Marines will serve you better.

Winning a battle is not about turning up with the most powerful killing machine available (if it were then every Necron army would be led by a C'tan but in fact most players rarely field them). Winning is about picking the engagements you can win.

Against a Deathwing or Saim Hann army then that Fex will never see close combat and will spend the rest of its short existence acting a pin-cushion.

Wez
20-06-2005, 22:28
So to the point, though...does it feel like GW keeps making one codex better than the next? The Brettonian fantasy list was like this too. This wouldn't be a huge problem except that they won't fix the list. It's not like a powerful Magic card that will just get banned or anything; this codex will be around for years, and this is only the second of the 4th edition codexes. Is this going to be the standard now? I can't wait for Black Templars. They're already a list that I think is unnecesasary and potentially overpowered, they'll probably leapfrog the Tyranids. Maybe it's just me, but I'm really thinking that, given the latest rash of stupid things GW has done, this may just be what they are going for.

CSM is generally viewed as the most powerful codex.

The Eldar codex is pretty powerful as well (even if it is undoubtedly riddled with too good units along with, put simply, crap units).

The nid codex is suffering from the "OMFG?! A new rule! Unfair! I lost, ergo nids are unbalanced! It's nothing to do with adjusting to new armies, it's pure cheese!" syndrome, every codex in 3rd and 4th edition 40k has.


The new Carnifex is stupid. It's just plain stupid. For 250 points you can get something that no tank can kill, but something that can kill just about any tank in one round of shooting, while moving. It will kill anything in close combat. It's good against everything. Yeah, there's a lot of armchair-general "oh well you do XYZ and it's easy", bull. It's stupid and broken, that's the only way to describe it. In 2000 points you can have two tooled-up Carnifexes, and two tooled-up Hive-Tyrants, and then an army after that. There is no possible way to kill 4 beasts like this unless you design a list specifically to do just that. What about the Tyranid player, though? Well You give one a venom cannon, one a barbed strangler, etc and you are good against any army you come up against. Orks with choppas...right, sure. You can find examples to counter this if you want to sit back and try, but the 'nid player just has to sit back and shoot pieplates into the Orks from the table edge. It's in Synapse range, it won't run.
Ooh, sour.:)

The new Carnifex is more expensive than the old one, even if the stats are the same (you're welcome to do the maths). A 250pt carnifex will nearly always die to things of equivalent points that is good against tough units. 2 125pt carnifexes will nearly always kill it. Heck, even a normal marine squad with plasma gun, lascannon and powerfist (considerably less than 250pts) will often be able to kill a 250pts Carnifex.

It's also slow. Deploying 24 inches apart (and who deploys as far forward as they can against nids, unless they're going to be outshot by nids), it should take a minimum of 4 turns to reach combat.

The "OMFG 13 attacks!" claims are also pretty funny. You could also get 6 attacks, some of which are at lower strength, while others don't ignore armour save. No-one's, or at least very few people, are going to use a Carnifex that can get 13 attacks, because put simply, to get that you need crushing claws, for which you pay 25pts to get on average 1.5 more attacks.


My point isn't that you can't beat them. Far from it. My point is you have to specifically take units to beat them that can't do anything else. In a tournament situation, making an all-commers list etc, I don't think that it is realistic to say that having 2 Carnifexes and 2 Hive Tyrants on the table is very beatable. The TMCs will go for the objectives, and you will be stuck with some very difficult decisions as to how to play your list. I'm not talking about a game where your buddy plays his 'nids and you play your whatevers. Sure you don't know exactly what he is going to field, but you at least know you are playing Tyranids.
This is why you don't enter tournaments if you don't like that style of play. That's fairly little to do with the dex, and more to do with the tournament (where most people will have more than enough plasma to deal with the TMCs).


Alright, whatever. All I know is there are now 2 'nid players who are switching armies because they refuse to play their army anymore because of how stupidly overpowered it is, and everyone in the store who plays against the 'nids thinks the same thing.
No loss really. If someone quits their army so early without properly testing it, it's no great loss imo.

-Wez

Wolf Scout Ewan
20-06-2005, 22:56
I actually understand where MonkeyKnifeFighter is coming from... he has a good point.

Mojaco
21-06-2005, 00:35
Don't believe in codex creep. Chaos is the last somewhat nastier release, and that was practically 9 lists slammed into one book, so a few were bounds to be a bit offbalance due to lack of playtesting (Iron Warriors and Khorne IMO).

After and a little before that we've had plenty of good lists. The Eye of Terror book, Necrons, Tau, IG and the new marines and nids are IMO not overpowered. Even if they are, that only leaves orks and eldar to claim as being the standard, which is a joke in it's own right.

Carnifexes are not so scary. They are slow, always arrive after the rest of his army, and their firepower is not impressive. Taking averages as a standard he'd kill one tank a battle with a venom cannon (1 hit each turn, 6 turns for a destroying glance). That isn't too bad. A strangler is even worse, hitting 3 times (if never getting in combat), getting 6 guys under his template, wounding 15, killing 5 (marines). Wow, 75 points earned with a 250 point beast.
The only truely scary thing is a winged tyrant, since a smart player can keep these alive for ages and pick his targets carefully. Counter that by using tactics of your own, luring him in traps or foreseeing where he's going and avoid it.

If you really want a now-brainer against Tyranids the key is simply hidden powerfists. If a Tyrant of Carnifex comes across unwounded it's your own fault, and otherwise you should only have to knock of the last two or three wounds off. A PF can do that in two turns, while you lose a few meatshields in turn. But you'll still be vunerable to massed assault, where half his army will assault one or two units of yours. Again, use tactics and smart movement to avoid being taking apart piecemal, like Tyrant like to do.

And if you play orks, you should eat Tyranids for breakfast. Your orks are in nearly all respects better then gaunts, monsters are hard to wound but only get 4+ saves in return and nobs do the rest. Wow, when I say it like that orks really sound overpowered against Tyranids. Wow, I should form a club with people who will never play orks again. Or maybe use my army's advantage, their superiour speed, and beat the orks with some tactics instead of whining.

Jal'knock
21-06-2005, 01:07
A 250 point carnifex eh? He must have been lucky with his regeneration rolls or whoever played him obviously didn't know about concenrating their firepower! Any sort of half decent firepower can down a carnifex, even with 5 wounds, toughness 7 and a 2+ save! The new nids can be pretty vicious but then again Simone Di Tomaso (hope I spelt it right) made the list that won the last GT and he used Eldar. His list could still hand that carnifex its out ass and ask for another. That list by the way was also made from a codex that dates back to about the begining of 3rd Ed.

Kahadras
21-06-2005, 01:13
Its not really the big ones that worry me. Its the smaller, faster ones. The tactic that I see is what I call the triple tap. This is were the Tyranids hit your lines in three waves on the second, third and fourth turn. This is incredably hard to counter as you cannot clear your lines fast enough to deal with the next wave. Stuff that arrives in the first wave are things like flying Hive Tyrants, Lictors and Broodlords with entourage. These take some killing and will lock up units of your army in cc or make you waste firepower in order to get rid of them. They can usualy get second turn charges and can lock up a lot of your forces before you have a chance to make your firepower count. On the third turn although you may have put down or damaged the first wave the second wave hits. This should have suffered less damage due to priority of fire going to the first wave. Hormogaunts are usualy the bread and butter of this wave and can generate a horrific amount of attacks on the charge. Your battleline is now swampt and you have no way of reacting to the third wave (which is usualy a Carnifex or 2). Ouch.
Of course there are probably ways of dealing with this but I am scratching my head at the present moment. In a Marine army a focus on Heavy bolters/Assault cannon may be the way forward as you can jam a lot into your army and they will really tear up most Tyranid creatures. Dev squads, Promethiuses, Landspeeder tornadoes, 5 man Terminator squads with 2 Assault cannon etc etc etc.

Kahadras

Jal'knock
21-06-2005, 01:20
Eldar could really make bits of most Nid armies, marines should easily be able to do the same. Thats the true test of your ability, to find ways around such armies. It is difficult but If you deal with destroying one thing completely and then move on, that generally works. Against Nids just make sure that you can move and shoot without compromising too much of your firepower and have counter assault units ready to back up your forces.

Mojaco
21-06-2005, 01:22
Just concentrate all fire on wave two. Such a big leap between waves (now two turns) should be hard to compensate for the Tyranid player.

However, if you get the chance to shoot wave one up effectivly, do that. You don't want a healthy bunch of genestealers in your lines :)

hood_oz
21-06-2005, 01:25
If you really want a now-brainer against Tyranids the key is simply hidden powerfists. If a Tyrant of Carnifex comes across unwounded it's your own fault

Not needed to rely just on the hidden powerfists with the new SM codex, I see using the Tyranid Preferred Enemy as being the greatest boon for my troops (SM or IG) hitting them on a 3+ is seriously helpful, add in true grit and you have some nice hurty tactical troops. Genestealers attacking units in cover will get hurt. Powerfists, yes, useful, but I can see the whole squad being useful against them with this rule. True it is a list designed to take out tyranids, but they end up looking very nice with the trophies and so on. And really marines are adaptible enough to not need the preferred enemy rule. And if they take it, they can still beat everyone else with the points spent on preferred enemy. It is only what, 1 point per model...

But my test games have only been small affairs, will test against the genestealer only army and a few larger tyranid armies when I get the chance.

Am planning on using a whirlwind or two. Or a vindicator group. ANy feedback on them? Dumping pie plates on tyranids always used to work, I am betting it still does, so what if you scatter? you will end up invariably hitting something else instead.

Might put together an armoured company to use against them at some point too...

Kahadras
21-06-2005, 01:27
The Insta-charge for the Lictors is the one that gets me. Its really hard to defend against as it just piles into combat. CC blocks los and a canny player can really fudge up a battleline with a couple of well placed combats. Also your shooting is less effective as it is over half range (bolters at close range can destroy Hormogaunt squads easily when rapid firing).

Kahadras

Kahadras
21-06-2005, 01:29
ANy feedback on them? Dumping pie plates on tyranids always used to work, I am betting it still does

Depends if they are going for a Large creature army then it won't do so well but against the regular swarm tactic I reakon that Whirlwinds and heavy bolters are the way forward.

Kahadras

P.S sorry for the double post but the threat is moving faster than I can type.

Mojaco
21-06-2005, 01:37
Yea, 3 lictors combined are the real schissnids. But they cost a LOT of points for these abilities and they stand a good chance of dying that first combat they charge in. Toughness 5, 5+ save, two wounds. And just 4 attacks. Blah. It's like fighting 2 tough charging guardsmen. At least three can get the job done, but that's 240 points AND no warriors on the table.

Hood_oz, yea, that works, but I just mentioned the quick and easiest answer to most Tyranid-related trouble. What you said helps, although indeed aimed at killing tyranids. Someone who adjusts his traits based on who he faces is someone I don't want to play.
With proper models though, which indeed would look cool. At least then someone took the time for it.

Doesn't work against monstrious creatures though.

Misfratz
21-06-2005, 01:37
...the Tyranids hit your lines in three waves on the second, third and fourth turn. This is incredably hard to counter as you cannot clear your lines fast enough to deal with the next wave.One thing that can help here is to defend in depth: So you have an outer 'picket' line [e.g. scouts], a main defensive line, and a reserve line. This should help to break up his attack so that he can't attack you in the smooth way he desires, butin a much more fragmented manner. Then it is just a case of concentrating your force on a portion of his army at a time.

I always find that mobile firepower is golden against Tyranids. But then I play Blood Angels so it helps if my firepower is mobile anyways...

MonkeyKnifeFighter
21-06-2005, 01:44
Sorry to keep getting somewhat frusturated, but maybe this is how they balance the lists and therein lies the problem...

Nobody has addressed how you design a list for all commers that can take on 2 Hive Tyrants and 2 Carnifexes, in a standard, 1850 point tourney. The discussion doesn't at all hinge on how you can design a list to beat them.

We also keep assuming this is a straight fight. Why does this part of the argument get continually ignored. You are playing a mission, you aren't trying to wipe out your opponent. When you have a tank, like a Whirlwind, you leave it at your table edge or close to it, and shoot the whole game. When you have a Carnifex you take no penalties for walking and shooting, and you park it right on the objective, along with 3 other TMCs and you sit there.

I don't understand why people continue to debate how it's not a problem to design a list to kill them. My argument has nothing to do with designing a list to kill them. It's the imbalance that exists because they are useful against anything and everything; mobile weapon platforms that are tough to kill that you can park on objectives and do next to nothing about. Unless you park your entire army within 12" of the objective, there are a lot of points to contest...and you don't really want to be in close combat with said TMCs.

I can't tell if I'm not making myself clear, nobody wants to debate the issue I have raised, or I'm just incredibly thick, and don't understand how taking 2 squads of Devistators with Lascannons isn't useful in an all-commers list.

Shinzui
21-06-2005, 01:46
Feeding tentrils are nasty though considering Gaunts can get ws5 it doesn't really mean much.

Easy way to defend from lictors is to spread out so that there is no place for the lictor to deep strike into terrain. Luckily GW foolishly didn't make a amendment that lictors deepstriking are not destroyed if they scatter within 1" of the enemy.

Other than that only Genestealers (if I remeber correctly) have feeding tentrils, but then against they are few in number as if they want to get across the board they need quite a few upgrades (making them 20+ pts each)

Kargos Bloodspit
21-06-2005, 02:00
Other than that only Genestealers (if I remeber correctly) have feeding tentrils, but then against they are few in number as if they want to get across the board they need quite a few upgrades (making them 20+ pts each)

But as you said above, gaunts have ws 5, so that makes it useless for them, Genestealers have ws 6, so its even more pointless, so why pay the points for the feeder tendrils for genestealers.


Anyway, want to take out TMCs without losing all anti infantry weapons for the gaunt swarms, take missile launchers. Should be at least 3s, if not 2s to wound against most tmcs (if not all). Granted, you're gunna have a bit of a problem if their carnifex/carnifexes have extended carapace. Then you've got frag for the gaunts (just need to shove them into a bottleneck somehow first).

Shinzui
21-06-2005, 02:06
But as you said above, gaunts have ws 5, so that makes it useless for them, Genestealers have ws 6, so its even more pointless, so why pay the points for the feeder tendrils for genestealers.

It's good if you have 2.5x the number of termagaunts and trying to assault with them

Also if you have alot of hormagaunts, I've found it is cheaper if you are planning to make the units work together to put them on the genestealers. Also a good idea if you don't want to upgrade warriors.

Kahadras
21-06-2005, 02:26
Nobody has addressed how you design a list for all commers that can take on 2 Hive Tyrants and 2 Carnifexes, in a standard, 1850 point tourney. The discussion doesn't at all hinge on how you can design a list to beat them.

The simple answer is that you cannot. Its the same when people turn up with an Armoured company, a Falcon heavy Eldar army, a 3 Land raider marine force. Competive min maxing (i.e maximising in one area while not really having much of a drawback) is hard to deal with. People usualy find that doing a similar thing helps (just hide your few marines inside a Land raider as you kill the big, scary and slow things).

Kahadras

Mr Evil
21-06-2005, 03:48
Sorry to keep getting somewhat frusturated, but maybe this is how they balance the lists and therein lies the problem...

Nobody has addressed how you design a list for all commers that can take on 2 Hive Tyrants and 2 Carnifexes, in a standard, 1850 point tourney. The discussion doesn't at all hinge on how you can design a list to beat them.


Aside from the single flying Hive Tyrant, ignore them or shoot at them. They're moving at 6" a turn and don't boast too much ranged firepower. They're MCs so you can still shoot at them over non-MC combats. If your list doesn't have 6+ high str/low AP weapons, then you're unlikely to be beating any other list as well. All you have to worry about is killing genestealers, gaunts (both varieties) can be beat in HtH by basic troopers while stealers cannot.

Those two people who switched to other armies from Tyranids you talked about probably did it because they wanted a better list, not because they're too powerful. The new codex has very few new options that are worth taking, none being game-breaking. And they're offset by having to load up on synapse if you want your gaunts to move.

zealousheretic
21-06-2005, 04:24
It's good if you have 2.5x the number of termagaunts and trying to assault with them



Finally someone else sees the really good application of Feeder Tendrils. WS 4 gaunts can benefit, but it's a much bigger boost if you get WS 3 gaunts in alongside the lictor; the upgrade lets them fight significantly above their points, so to speak.

I also tend to prefer hormagaunts as cheap as possible, as 11-12 point gaunts die easily as 10 point ones do.

dodicula
21-06-2005, 04:50
how can you move > 24" with scuttlers 6" scuttle+6" move+(lets say) 6" Fleet + 6" charge= 24" or do they charge 12"

FrAnKtHeFrEaK
21-06-2005, 04:58
:eyebrows:
Am I the only one totally confused about what he just said?

Shinzui
21-06-2005, 04:58
Pe-game move 6", Move 6", Fleet (on a good roll 6") and assault 6" = 24".

PBGhost
21-06-2005, 06:39
Forces must deploy OVER 24 inches from each other. Hence the stealers will always be out.

Shinzui
21-06-2005, 06:41
Forces must deploy OVER 24 inches from each other. Hence the stealers will always be out.

You also have to be winthin 24" to chargeso no 1st turn charges anyways.

Karhedron
21-06-2005, 08:50
Nobody has addressed how you design a list for all commers that can take on 2 Hive Tyrants and 2 Carnifexes, in a standard, 1850 point tourney. The discussion doesn't at all hinge on how you can design a list to beat them.
In an 1850 point army you should usually have at least half a dozen long ranged anti-tank weapons in a "standard" army. It doesn't matter what opponent you face, all armies have some tough units whether they are Land Raiders, Battlewagons, Wraithlords, C'tan, TMCs or Battlesuits. Your opponent will always have tough stuff so you will always need to take some dedicated anti-tank weapons in your army.

A big bug is just the tyranid equivelant of a tank. OK a Carnifex can have 5 wounds so it cannot be killed with 1 hit. But a lascannon hit will wound on a 2+ and allow no armour save. The same lascannon hit on the front of a Leman Russ will need a 5 to glance and a 6 to penetrate.

If they actually reach your lines then hidden power fists are pretty much standard in most army lists in 4th edition. Granted not all races have access to this sort of leveller but Tau and Guard (the two big exceptions) have considerably above-average firepower on their side in the first place.

At the end of the day, 2 Hive Tyrants and 2 Fexes are unlikely to win the game because he will have sunk around half his points into these big models leaving him weak on regular Troops. It is not the big hard units that win games, it is the basic units of the army. If you don't believe me, try playing against a Marine army of the same points that has 6 10-man tactical squads, they are very hard to beat.

An 1850 point Tyranid army with 4 TMCs is not particularly hard to beat. You don't need to trick out your own army to beat it. A standard tournement army will contain a decent level of anti-tank weapons which will kill those TMCs very efficiently provided that you concentrate your firepower!

If you split your firepower across the big ones then you might cause 1 wound on each which is insignificant. If the same firepower is concentrated on one big beast then those four wounds will be a dead Fex or Tyrant. Given that these big beasts will be too slow to reach your lines early, you should be able to take out 2 or 3 of them before they even get close.

Fabricator General
21-06-2005, 10:08
Tyranids are slightly better now, in my opinion. Not so much for all the bellyaching, though. The carnifex that has 2 venom cannons has at best a 3 BS and isn't so good in CC, and the one with lots of attacks has at best a 2 I and can easily be picked off by ranged weapons.

It seems to me that building an 1850 pt list that is tough enough to take on all comers including nids with lots of MC's, yet not be tailored specifically against the nids is a silly exercise, because it's easy: don't pidgeonhole yourself into only using one army. There are lots of armies that can defeat most comers(incl. nids), but not every list will have something to counter every other list. Necrons give me a serious shooty headache every time I play against them using my Iron Hands, but I can't wait to get the insanely tooled-up, bionics-enhanced Reclusiam Command Squad with attached Epistolary into an assault with big, low initiative bugs. I look forward to using my Khornate army against them too.

Not every nid player will make the exact same choices in models, hive mind powers, or luck with the dice either. My tyranid army is surely like many others in that I use stealers for my "weakest" troops and get big nasty gribblies for everything else, but they've been beaten by Necrons(1x), SM(2x), and CSM(2x).
Now it is true that all of my Tyranid losses (and even more wins) were with the 3rd ed codex, but my army list from 3rd to 4th hardly changed, statistically.

Who knows though, maybe the new nid codex will cause a huge percentage of non-nid players to lose their competetive edge just by being in print- sort of a "if you believe in codex creep, the army will beat you" kind of thing.

Mojaco
21-06-2005, 10:20
Easy way to defend from lictors is to spread out so that there is no place for the lictor to deep strike into terrain. Luckily GW foolishly didn't make a amendment that lictors deepstriking are not destroyed if they scatter within 1" of the enemy.
True, but probably not a mistake though.

Why complain about nobody saying how to beat Tyranids with a standard army? Plasma (my worst nightmare with my nids) and hidden powerfists really work, and are practically standard in any list.

Take off two wound in the shooting phase, remove the last two in combat. 5 wounds, regenerate and toughness 7 makes it harder, but carnifexes usually give you all the time in the world.

If everybody at your store finds them so overpowered they won't even play with them, why don't they just make lists without 250 pts carnifexes and no winged tyrants? The list is so varied that even people that like to underpower themselves can do just fine with it. Tip: A lot of 15 point hormagaunts, two spinefist carnifexes and 3 biovores are nice pointsinks.

Lion El Jason
21-06-2005, 10:27
At the end of the day TMCs arent really that tough...JUST SHOOT THEM ALREADY!
Really, they cant get s decent inv save so anything AP 2 will kill them. The T7, 5W 2+sv fex looks nasty but in my experience every time I use it it either gets ignored and evaded or the enemy kills it in a turn and it never gets to regenerate.

Plasma kills them, it also kills everything else in the list and gets multiple shots/blast. Assault cannon kill them, the crazily cheap heavy bolters can have a good go at MCs and are great for those T3 6+sv hordes.

'Nids have been slightly powered down from the last codex, they're still competitive but no where near the level of Guard and Chaos.

Cloudscape_online
21-06-2005, 10:34
You want to nail the 'fex and the tyrant? Plasma weapons, lascannons, Demolisher cannons. All are AP2, all are relatively strong. Focus fire, eliminate one threat at a time by pouring all firepower into that target until it is dead. Kill them, do not leave them on 1 wound as they will regenerate at least 1 wound and that is unacceptable. Next turn, nail the next threat. Rinse and repeat. Mop-up with infantry. :D

This works incredibly well for guard, btw. :cool:

That's me. I posted that on the second page of this thread. Lion el Jason is right, Plasma & Lascannon will make your Tyranid opponent cry.

Karhedron
21-06-2005, 11:13
Why complain about nobody saying how to beat Tyranids with a standard army? Plasma (my worst nightmare with my nids) and hidden powerfists really work, and are practically standard in any list.
True enough. A standard list will usually include these (or race specific variations) as well as some decent anti-tank stuff. Certain armies may lack in one of these areas (orks not having much plasma) but gain in others (lots of Nobz with power claws).

At the end of the day, Nids (even TMCs) can be beaten with standard tournement lists without too much trouble. You don't need to modify your army, just identify which elements of the swarm pose you the most threat and concentrate your firepower accordingly.

Space Marines for example have little trouble handling the smaller Nid critters in either shooting or CC. It is only when the larger bugs get into CC that Marines run into serious trouble. So for Marines the best tactic is to shoot the big ones early on. Tactical squads can usually handle Gaunts in CC.

IG on the other hand are likely to get tied up in CC with even the smallest nids. A carnifex will take a couple turns to rip through an infantry squad that costs less than a hundred points. That means Guard need to thin the small stuff to avoid getting tied down and shredded. Fortunately, they normally have enough firepower for this to be a workable tactic.

At the end of the day, just remember to focus on whatever elements of the enemy are most deadly to your army. Keep shooting at these until they drop and then move on to the next highest priority targets. Sometimes luck will let you down but this can affect anyone.

hairyman
21-06-2005, 11:38
I had my first game against the new nids at the weekend, and have to say I noticed little difference. I lost (with an infantry based Black legion army), but it was down to my own tactical ineptitude rather than the nids being overpowered. The Fex posed no problem at all.. plasma plasma las and he was down. The real bummer was the fleet genestealers (now much more of a threat) and the innumerable rending warriors needed to provide synapse. I was well and truly rended/rendered/rendicated.

Biovores were nasty with that ap3 barrage, but as they had to deploy together they were much easier to hunt down. Really, the big stuff had little or no impact on the game... it was (as it always is) the medium sized nids and the rending that did for me (along with my oh so poor deployment).

Angelus Mortis
21-06-2005, 11:48
Forces must deploy OVER 24 inches from each other. Hence the stealers will always be out.You only have to be 18" apart in cleanse. So my earlier 24" was incorrct. Most scenarios you must at least 24" apart, not over 24" apart. So, even then you can still do it, if you roll a 6 for your fleet and don't have to cross any terrain. And if you guys are one of those types that are measuring to microfractions of an inch, you need to find another game (last part not directed at you specificly PBGhost).

Also, I haven't heard any cry's of :cheese: about the fact that anyone with a Force Weapon can outright kill any of these TMC's before they even get a chance to do anything. Or the fact that a Culluxeus will routinely eat a Hive Tyrant for breakfast before he gets to do anything, even if he has 3 Guards. Wow, there sure are a lot of ways to deal with this list without any major changes to your own. :rolleyes:

Wez
21-06-2005, 11:51
Maybe we should see MonkeyKnifeFighter take all comers list?

'Take all comers' should be able to deal with 4TMCs. If they can't chances are they aren't really take all comers lists. I'm intrigued. A take all comers list at 1850pts should be able to kill 16-18, T6/7, 2+/3+ in and combat imo.

Personally, I prefer genestealers to TMCs: They're faster, do more damage in combat against just about everything and are imo far more interesting to us.


I don't understand why people continue to debate how it's not a problem to design a list to kill them. My argument has nothing to do with designing a list to kill them. It's the imbalance that exists because they are useful against anything and everything; mobile weapon platforms that are tough to kill that you can park on objectives and do next to nothing about. Unless you park your entire army within 12" of the objective, there are a lot of points to contest...and you don't really want to be in close combat with said TMCs.
If they're dead they can't capture objectives, can't mince your units in combat and can't form a moving barrage.;) Killing them is the best way to counter them!

A combat non-flying tyrant or combat Carnifex can be ignored for the first few turns imo.

Finally, for debating first turn charges: You don't need to deploy as far forward as you can! Even if the nearest is 18 inches, who's going to deploy that far forward against a nid army?!

-Wez

Angelus Mortis
21-06-2005, 11:57
Maybe we should see MonkeyKnifeFighter take all comers list?

'Take all comers' should be able to deal with 4TMCs. If they can't chances are they aren't really take all comers lists. I'm intrigued. A take all comers list at 1850pts should be able to kill 16-18, T6/7, 2+/3+ in and combat imo.I agree. My 2 take all comers from DH and my AOR can easily handle 4 TMC's. Now of course when you throw in the Dice God an Karma... :rolleyes: :p


Personally, I prefer genestealers to TMCs: They're faster, do more damage in combat against just about everything and are imo far more interesting to us.They are quite nasty. Now that they can have a 4+ save and FOC, they are very nasty. No more boltering them to nothing with one round of fire. Not unless you focus at least 2 squads on them. And that will take fire off his other stuff.


A combat non-flying tyrant or combat Carnifex can be ignored for the first few turns imo.Agreed to a point. If you do have a longe range Devastator type unit, it always a good idea to fire off a few shots his way though. At least to soften up his guard if he has any. But for the most part, you should be worried more about the little guys, as they will start tieing up your guys in front and cutting down the amount of fire you can hit him with.

Finally, for debating first turn charges: You don't need to deploy as far forward as you can! Even if the nearest is 18 inches, who's going to deploy that far forward against a nid army?!


Finally, for debating first turn charges: You don't need to deploy as far forward as you can! Even if the nearest is 18 inches, who's going to deploy that far forward against a nid army?!I will with my LRC filled with 8 GKT. That can eat 32 Guants a game turn. DH are very effective, even in melee with 'Nids. Holocaust is just ridiculous against the 'lil ones and S6 Power Weapons at initiative can kill any TMC. GK GM? S6 Force Weapon and thats just wrong. :D

Praetorian
21-06-2005, 12:10
Well, if you only have 1/2 an hour for a game- stand right there as close as you can and get it all over and done with :evilgrin:

This has been a long read, but indeed interesting.
And like the majority of vets say, it happens every time there is a big change. (the more they change the more they stay the same)lol

Not trying to pee in anyones cornflakes- it just is what it is. :cool:

Cloudscape_online
21-06-2005, 12:13
Eeeww... Cornflakes :ick: Oh, and the pee was pretty sick too.

Praetorian
21-06-2005, 12:50
Sorry for the graphic nature of my metaphor
lol ;) :D
Pee, kills bugs dead :skull:

Angelus Mortis
21-06-2005, 12:58
Pee, kills bugs dead :skull:At least mine does. :p (I really need to lay off the sauce. :rolleyes: )

IG88
26-06-2005, 00:05
I think I've extracted to main point of the argument here: in light of "Codex creep", whether or not you believe it actually exists, new threats have arisen which are very hard to counter with existsing general, "take-on-all-comers" army lists.

Without being condescending, allow me to introduce a concept called the "metagame"; that is, the game outside the game. You're playing the metagame when you draw up your army list before going to the battle. For instance, in the game itself, you know to put Devastators on a hill with a good range of sight to shoot whatever it encounters. In the metagame, you know to take Devastators with heavy bolters because you expect to play against a lot of swarm armies. The metagame consists of all the choices made before you ever set one model down or pick a single die up.

What I see happening most times is that, when a new Codex comes out, some people wrestle with determining the state of the dynamic metagame. A small portion of them, who I will call "jeremiads", will start screaming that X, Y, or Z is unfair, because their "take-on-all-comers" army list, created under the structure of the old metagame, is no longer valid.

The point of all this is not that the new Tyranid Codex is broken, it's that the availability of a large number of TMC's has changed the metagame. Your "balanced" list is no longer balanced in light of the current metagame. It's nothing wrong with your tactics, it's just that when things change, sometimes other things have to change to keep up.

Playing jeremiads'-advocate for a second, though, simply saying "Play the metagame better!" isn't going to change anything. The problem with the shiny new Codexes, it seems, is that the area in which power levels were increased seem to affect the metagame more than the areas where the power levels were decreased. For example, all the threats posed by every race still exist (except Rhino Rush. Hooray!), but now the option of 6 or more TMC's in the same army must be factored in. So how is anyone supposed to possibly keep up with all that?

The answer is, simply, you can't. Not on a global level. There's no way to build a list balanced enough to have an even chance of beating any kind of crazy army thrown your way. Though the prospects of you going to a gigantic tournament and playing against 100 opponents bringing everything from Daemon bomb to Armored Company to 8 TMC's to Saim-Hann to Marine swarm to Huge Pile of Thousand Sons* is slim to none.

Instead, realistically you're going to play about three games against people whose armies were constructed in light of a local metagame. This is where cunning army design comes in. You have to anticipate, compenstate, and outwit everyone you're playing against even before you even know who they are. While this sounds impossible, with a limited pool of players, it's actually quite easy.

This, of course, isn't to say that you won't misjudge the local meta and foul everything up. Case in point: I played a 500 point tournament at the Memphis Battle Bunker. The sign-up sheet listed a lot of people as playing Guard and Eldar, so I decided to arm my Guard with a bunch of heavy bolters instead of a bunch of missile launchers. I played Marines, Death Guard, then Marines again. I didn't get slaughtered, but if I had correctly guessed the meta-environment**, I would've brought a Leman Russ and both games would've been over on turn 2.

One of the points made, however, is that the newest, shiniest Codex seems to be impervious to the metagame and can basically do whatever the crap it wants and be just fine. Taking a bunch of Carnifexes, it was stated, ensures that you can beat whatever comes along. My response to that is two-fold:
1.) This is proof that Codexes are actually becoming more balanced instead of more broken, since a general list can stand up to whatever opponent is thrown at it (which is what I would assume the meaning of "balanced" is), and
2.) Some races just have an easier time of it. For the sake of diversity, there's nothing you can really do about it.

Anyway, to wrap up this insanely long reply, instead of blaming the Codex, blame the disorienting shift in the metagame. Stop trying to build the one, perfect "take-on-all-comers" list, and instead start to anticipate the armies you will most likely be playing against. You'll screw up and get defeated sometimes, but one of the best pieces of advice I could ever give some one is this: "If you're too scared of losing, don't play."



* I don't think this is an actual archetype, but I envisioned an army of nine Thousand Son Chosen Terminators all with Spawn, Thralls, and Chaos Hounds just stomping around as one huge unit, shooting bolts of change at whatever was around and summoning daemons just for a grin. It was a hilarious thought, though probably not combat-effective.

** Rule One of the Metagame: Everyone plays Marines.

GodHead
26-06-2005, 02:55
If you look at the new Tyranid Codex, on a unit by unit basis, almost every single unit has now either become more expensive while remaining exactly the same, or has kept it's point cost while losing a wound.

The Tyranid army I took in 3rd edition cost over 100 points LESS than it would if I used the exact same army under the new rules. I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to codex creep, and using Tyranids as an example of such is plainly ridiculous. Certainly they've done a better job in 40k of ensuring balance among the new codecis than they have done in WFB.

It's simply not an issue with 40k right now. This is just a knee-jerk foam at the mouth overreaction to a loss or even worse, a second hand story of a loss or theoretical idea of a loss, and is frankly 100% mistaken.

Angelus Mortis
26-06-2005, 06:22
If you look at the new Tyranid Codex, on a unit by unit basis, almost every single unit has now either become more expensive while remaining exactly the same, or has kept it's point cost while losing a wound.

The Tyranid army I took in 3rd edition cost over 100 points LESS than it would if I used the exact same army under the new rules. I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to codex creep, and using Tyranids as an example of such is plainly ridiculous. Certainly they've done a better job in 40k of ensuring balance among the new codecis than they have done in WFB.

It's simply not an issue with 40k right now. This is just a knee-jerk foam at the mouth overreaction to a loss or even worse, a second hand story of a loss or theoretical idea of a loss, and is frankly 100% mistaken.Very well said. I agree 100% with your observation. It appears to be venting more than anything. I personally have no problems witht he new codex and will gladly take on any would be Hive Tyrants. But as was said before, these posts crying about "the new codex is way cheesed man!" or "these guys are uber-powerful, nobody can beat them now" come out with such amazing regularity that you could probably set your clock to them. Just ludicrous really. :D