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fubukii
25-06-2005, 19:48
topic says it all which army is the most overpowered and list your reasons why

Artemis_Quinn
25-06-2005, 19:57
I am more or less forced to vote Skaven. This is because whereas their list was not meant to be open to abuse, it is. Any civilized player can build up a list where they have a nice, balanced, competative army....... But Skaven are the only ones who ever recieved the SAD title due to some player abuses.

dwarf king
25-06-2005, 20:05
why are the dwarfs not there they r the best

Wez
25-06-2005, 20:38
Ugh. I can see this thread becoming a very long bitch-fest. :rolleyes: Even for this type of thread itís pretty poor considering how many armies arenít even on the list.

I'll just say this though, before the thread divulges into moaning:

No army is in itself over-powered. It only becomes over-powered when someone decides to abuse the army's rules to make the army better than intended.

For example, a mix of Skaven units isn't over-powered; a SAD army is. That doesn't make the Skaven army over-powered. Even the Bretonnian list isn't over-powered if, as I expect was intended, you use a good mix of commoners and knights.

Moan away now.:)

-Wez

Da GoBBo
25-06-2005, 20:46
hmmm, would agree on that if ye had to be a complete genius to think up an army like da SAD. But the fact is that you don't. Even the biggest idiot can create an overpowered army with da skaven list. The fact that you can create weak ones as well doesn't matter. If you think about it like that no army would be overpowered cause you can create weak armies with any list. Like I said, anyone can create an army of doom with this list and that makes it overpowered. Luckily there are people who create nice and competitive lists as well.

I vote for the greenskins though. Funny how one of the best balanced armies can be (one of) the most beardy ones too. O&G is very much open for abuse. Luckily this is such an anjoyable army that almost noone tends to do so.

anarchistica
25-06-2005, 21:03
It's commonly agreed upon that 40K Lizardmen, Summoning Vampire Counts, SAD Skaven and Monthy Python's Flying Bretonnians are the most powerful list variants.

Shake-em-baby Chaos Dwarfs, Daemonic Legion and Chaos take places 5 to 7, beyond that it's pretty vague.

fubukii
25-06-2005, 21:08
oh fyi max choices i could put inwas 10 so i had to leave out tomb kings, OK and dwarves

Avian
25-06-2005, 21:29
No army is in itself over-powered. It only becomes over-powered when someone decides to abuse the army's rules to make the army better than intended.
Any Daemonic Legion lists is pretty damn powerful unless you intentionally set out to make a weak list.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
25-06-2005, 21:43
There are no abusable lists...just abusive players. As someone earlier said, any idiot could make an SAD army...but that's just it, only idiots will. Anyone who wants to have fun and engaging game would naturally lean toward a more balanced skaven list. The same applies to all other armies.

Wez
25-06-2005, 21:52
Any Daemonic Legion lists is pretty damn powerful unless you intentionally set out to make a weak list.
I can't really comment, having never played against a daemonic legion list.:(

-Wez

anarchistica
25-06-2005, 21:53
There are no abusable lists...just abusive players. As someone earlier said, any idiot could make an SAD army...but that's just it, only idiots will. Anyone who wants to have fun and engaging game would naturally lean toward a more balanced skaven list. The same applies to all other armies.
You do realise you're contradicting yourself, right?

Jewtastic!
25-06-2005, 23:57
It's commonly agreed upon that 40K Lizardmen, Summoning Vampire Counts, SAD Skaven and Monthy Python's Flying Bretonnians are the most powerful list variants.

Shake-em-baby Chaos Dwarfs, Daemonic Legion and Chaos take places 5 to 7, beyond that it's pretty vague.


The 40k lizard list?

Shimmergloom
26-06-2005, 00:54
What's SAD mean?

Why is skaven considered so overpowered?

Kelroth
26-06-2005, 01:00
Jewtastic - multiple Skink units. Skirmishers with 6" move who have shooting attacks, basically plays like a 40K army.

Shimmergloom: Skaven/Skryre Army of Doom. Basically, maxed-out Ratlings and Skryre weirdness which is too reliable for what it's supposed to be.

anarchistica
26-06-2005, 01:43
Jewtastic - multiple Skink units. Skirmishers with 6" move who have shooting attacks, basically plays like a 40K army.
Skinks and Salamanders both move 6" and can still shoot. Combined with lots of magic and some Terradons this is a terribly annoying list to play against, since everything runs away and keeps hammering you.


Shimmergloom: Skaven/Skryre Army of Doom. Basically, maxed-out Ratlings and Skryre weirdness which is too reliable for what it's supposed to be.
Aka Shooty Army of Doom. Usually 3 pimped Warlocks, a Grey Seer, 6-ish Clanrats with Ratlings, one or two WLC's, some cheap diversions in the form of Slaves and Skirmishers and a few handfulls of Jezzails. It can simply sit and shoot everything while being protected by numbers, 4 Magi and high LD.

Roel
26-06-2005, 13:01
And what is a "Monthy Python's Flying Bretonnians" army exactly?

anarchistica
26-06-2005, 13:08
Lord on Pegasus, couple of lances, couple of Pegasus Knight units. It's dead tough (2+ save or T4/W2/3+ save), fast (16/20" charges) and usually hits harder than Chosen Knights but get a rank bonus.

Galonthar
26-06-2005, 13:24
I otta be mad or something but,..

I voted empire,... don`t kick me!!(yet)
it is as said before,.... a list only becomes overpowered when abused,... and empire CAN be abused!!! :skull:

- core -we can`t die- knights,

- batteries of too powerfull cannons,....

- and vast amounts of faaaaar too powerfulll special chars (you can make an army of only specials,... :eyebrows: )


and well.... I don`t know,... they`re just terribly overpowered the way my friend plays them,.... I know you can play empire quite nicely, but how he does it (he only sometimes places spear- and swordsmen).... its boring to face,.. you know you`ll be dust within no-time

Eldacar
26-06-2005, 13:33
The most common Empire power army I have seen is the Nuln Artillery Train, actually.

As to the most overpowered army, I voted Skaven.

Ethereal Alpaca
26-06-2005, 14:24
I voted orcs. Well, to be more percise night goblins.

There may be more unbalanced lists. But I've just suffered too many times at the hands of a player the beardiest, most boring NG army in existance. Three tooled up level 2 shamans, two small gobbo units with 3 fanatics each, four bolt throwers, a rock lobber and the magic heat-seeking doom diver. :mad:

Evisss
26-06-2005, 16:05
My vote definetly skaven as they are so unbalanced:

Having jezzails which are cheap and very powerful and which are normally used by most skaven players in units of 10!! Thats 10 S 6 shots with a range of more than handguns!
Then they have their magic which is full of easily cast spells and which always hurt with that many power dice.

And you always find players fielding around 4 - 5 ratling guns! :mad:

Skaven should be worked on as soon as possible as they have become the major powergamer army.

Master of Stealth
26-06-2005, 18:54
Aka Shooty Army of Doom. Usually 3 pimped Warlocks, a Grey Seer, 6-ish Clanrats with Ratlings, one or two WLC's, some cheap diversions in the form of Slaves and Skirmishers and a few handfulls of Jezzails. It can simply sit and shoot everything while being protected by numbers, 4 Magi and high LD.


I'd love to see that kind of army. :evilgrin:

I don't play that kind of army, I always choose my army according to my fluff (clan eshin style army)! But I guess you're right, Skavens can be SAD. But nearly any army can be SAD! Empire can be SAD, Dark elves can be SAD, High elves can be SAD, etc etc...

What I'm saying is that many hate skaven because they have played against a guy/girl who has made his/her skaven army so they can win! I don't think that anyone can judge someone just because he/she wanted to win! Sure it's a bit unfair, but that's the skaven nature! Take advantedge by using everything in the list! I would probably do so my self!

Lafeel Abriel
26-06-2005, 19:02
I'm going to vote for the Brettonians, as I can just imagine how scary, and cheesy, the R.A.F. can be, even without ever having fought them.

Cigaro
26-06-2005, 20:52
I voted Chaos because the Daemon list (if you go for Khorne) is just screaming out to be abused. Great list, but open for abuse.
So many painful memories... (whippers as remembers Earthshaker pegging it on Turn 2)

vladdim
26-06-2005, 22:59
I concider Skaven SAD to be the most overpowered army but the cheesiest list I've met belongs to the Empire:

4 Wizards (Lore of Heavens)
5x10 Handgunners (Marksmen with HLR)
4 Great Cannons
1 DoW Cannon
1 Steam Tank (platform)

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
26-06-2005, 23:31
I have never seen a beardy/powergamer high elf list and it seems to me like it is pretty hard to make up one (then again ive only been playing a couple months). If you have any examples, id love to hear them.

Also, i have peeked at the new wood elf codex, and that army (if played right) can destroy ANYONE with ease.

EDIT- I chose skaven

Xenageo
26-06-2005, 23:53
HE imba list:

13+d3 powerdice (4 mages + banner of sorcery and jewel of the dusk, load up on "Seers" and power stones)

3x5 silverhelm units
1x5 dragonprinces (for the banner of sorcery)
6 chariots
5 shadow warriors
2 great eagles

I think that hits about 2k.

The woodelf list is significantly worse than the current list.

Right now I think that the skaven SAD is really neat, but I would rate a VC summon-tastic army slightly higher in terms of being unbalanced.

edit: clarification: by worse, I mean that yes, the new wood elf list is going to be harder to win with than the current list.

Math Mathonwy
27-06-2005, 08:16
Tzeentch Daemonic Legion is the most overpowered army, hands down, It's actually hard to make a non-powerful list out of it.

adreal
27-06-2005, 08:51
I chose chaos as the whole chariots being core ands fairly cheap and can still destry anything so :P thingo kinda does that to me, although tomb kings cahriots army (although fluffy) is pretty rock hard as well

DrCamf
27-06-2005, 08:52
Voted skaven, because it is so easy to abuse, tried myself, first time I opened a Skaven armybook it took me 2 minutes to create a list that deals average 50-60 wounds with str4 -2 save, str5 and str6 from shooting and magic per round (this we tried over 20 times to see if it was true) and there is still 300 models that are just there for hth

anarchistica
27-06-2005, 15:48
I concider Skaven SAD to be the most overpowered army but the cheesiest list I've met belongs to the Empire:

4 Wizards (Lore of Heavens)
5x10 Handgunners (Marksmen with HLR)
4 Great Cannons
1 DoW Cannon
1 Steam Tank (platform)
Dude, that's a pretty weak list. No combat units, a Platform on the Stank (quite obviously the crappiest option) and poor Ld. As soon as the enemy gets in close combat with them they're dead.

Lordmonkey
27-06-2005, 16:58
Flying daemons would SO make a mockery of that list.

Cigaro
27-06-2005, 18:26
Or avfew Earthshakers. Bang! There goes firepower, leaving time for Wolfboyz to roll up the flanks.

fubukii
27-06-2005, 20:40
or my favorite poof zombie unit from the rear :)

malisteen
27-06-2005, 20:57
The general consensus seems to be skaven, and I agree. Far to powerful, far too reliable, far too inexpensive, far too many unnecessary, annoying, and confusing special rules. SOD is far, far more effective then any elven equivalents (all three of the elven armies are pathetic at shooting compared to skaven), and tops other versions, like empire or dwarf, as well.

AKBandito
28-06-2005, 07:31
for player grossly abused armies, .. chaos easily.
for overpowered even with a balanced list, lizardmen.

Dirty Fingers
28-06-2005, 08:19
Flying daemons would SO make a mockery of that list.

among many other things.....

Lord Lucifer
28-06-2005, 11:30
That Empire list looks really powerful if you're intending to stand still the entire game. But that would be because you're an idiot, in which case, any army used against you will be powerful.

The highest leadership is 8, in a single figure... kill the Wizard Lord, then a panic test, and the army is gone
Hell, you can shoot it to death with Longbows and/or Crossbows (deploy 5 inches away from your deployment zone edge, judge where your opponent is deployed, and just fire while out of range. Easy points)



The reason the Skaven SAD is pegged as worse than any other SAD is because, well, it is
A lot of it auto-hits, a lot of it is at much higher strength, the magic phase alone can blow most other contenders away (Empire SAD will have a pathetic magic phase against the Skaven), and it manages to counter the traditional weaknesses of a standard SAD list by having LOTS of models and a high Leadership, proving a more robust and resilient army.
Picture taking a 2,000point Empire SAD and then adding a balanced 2,000point Empire infantry-heavy army to it free of charge and you've about got it.




And the thought of the Empire being the most overpowered army is amusing :D
Even with the Steam Tank it's not scary

Pez
28-06-2005, 13:49
I've not really had much experience with overpowered lists. If someone in our group uses an army like the ones described here, they probably won't use it more than once - it's just not as fun, for either player.

I have noticed however that the players who build armies like this tend to take losing very hard, as though their 'perfect army' shouldn't fail. It kind of betrays their feelings about the game - that winning is the only reason to play.

Sometimes we have challenged each other to purposefully create a 'beardy' list, just for the laugh - that's when armies like this are fun!

Oh, and Skaven.

Geetarman
29-06-2005, 14:04
I voted skaven and I'm the horned one! As mentioned a hundred times by others the army itself is not broken, but the options and special rules can be abused horribly. That and there are so many special rules for skaven along with some ridiculously cheap magic items/specal weapons.

If you play a fair army though then they aren't overpowered at all.

Gman

Warlord Gnashgrod
29-06-2005, 18:54
I agree that you can make an army list for the Skaven that is(dare I say it?) extremely 'cheesy', what with a lot of shooting, magic, etc.

I myself do my best not to make a SAD army, though. My current 2000pt list has only 2 Warlock Engineers, 2 Ratling Guns, 12 Poisoned Wind Globadiers divided up into 3 units, and one gutter runner squad of 5 with throwing stars. That is all the shooting this army has. The rest is all hth. Compared to some Skaven armies, I don't think this is very bad at all.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
29-06-2005, 19:36
There are no abusable lists...just abusive players.

Wrong. As an example to prove why, no one can truthfully claim that the Skaven armylist and the Dark Elf army list are equally abuseable. No way in hell...

m1s1n
29-06-2005, 20:24
Where's my "None of the Above" option?
I honestly feel that any army in the right hands can beat any other army, so I have difficulty really deciding which army is overpowered. Additionally, an "overpowered" army in one person's control will perform with utter failure if the person doesn't know how to play them.

nikolai7
29-06-2005, 21:16
a pretty nasty army in 1000points is the necromancer appendix list.. 3 tooled up necromancers one with the item that casts hellish vigour, 2 max sized units of zombies some fell bats.. sit in your deplyment zone and just wait the game out raising more and more zombies. Then when the zombies do end up in combat use hellish vigour and they might just kill something.. apart from that 3 ranks outnumber and standard will be a challenge to beat in combat. It cant be used in tournaments or anything but as a fluff army its sickening.

but yeah skaven, just because its so much easier to beard them up than other armies.

malisteen
29-06-2005, 22:09
Of course the players make a big difference, and an army that blows away one opponant might have trouble with another. But that doesn't make the armies inherently balanced. Dark Elves more or less disprove that theory. They recieved an update that improved several of their units significantly. Their base core troops dropped 2 points per model, their stupid cavalry got higher leadership at no points increase. All of the changes were beneficial to dark elf units, some of them significantly so. It cannot be seen as anything other then a powering up of the army. Therefore, if dark elves were balanced before the update they are too strong now, and if they are balanced now they were too weak before.

Yes skilled players could win with them before. Yes, skilled players can beat them now. But the point is that it's easier to win with them now then it was before.

Some armies make winning easier. Not automatic, but easier. Some armies make victory more difficult. Not impossible, but more difficult. It's not the only consideration for victory, but it does start the game off with a bit of a handicap in favor of one player or the other.

anarchistica
29-06-2005, 22:14
Where's my "None of the Above" option?
I honestly feel that any army in the right hands can beat any other army, so I have difficulty really deciding which army is overpowered. Additionally, an "overpowered" army in one person's control will perform with utter failure if the person doesn't know how to play them.
What do you mean by "army"? Do you mean "specific list" or "list made from all options in an army book"?

m1s1n
29-06-2005, 23:01
I just don't feel that "easier to win with" means the same thing as "overpowered".

Additionally, I feel that erratas and updates are done to better maintain this balance so that nothing will be considered "over-" or "under-" powered. However, since GW--the only real authority on the balance within the game--has yet to create any drastic changes since the DE revision, I feel comfortable calling the game balanced.

As has been pointed out numerous times before, many people are quick to classify something as "cheesy" or "overpowered" if they are unable to beat the army. However, few are willing to be self-critical enough to judge their own performance within the game and alter their playing style appropriately. Instead, people look to GW to change the game so that they do not have to deal with "overpowered" and "cheesy" armies.


What do you mean by "army"? Do you mean "specific list" or "list made from all options in an army book"?

I mean both. Generally I am referring to a force constructed from an army book. However, in this case it can be applied to both terms.

I don't think that any one book stands out as being better than any other, because the army books were written to be balanced to themselves--not to other books. I also feel that there is no such thing as the "perfect list"--as every list has its own weaknesses--whether it be reflected through special rules or point costs. Thus far I have yet to experience an "unbeatable" list--even the "easier to win with" lists are constructed around weaknesses.

Avian
30-06-2005, 00:03
I just don't feel that "easier to win with" means the same thing as "overpowered".
So what does "overpowered" mean to you, then?


"Unbeatable" is a very bad concept to use. Heck, if Chaos Knights were 20 pts each to begin with, rather than 33 the army would still be beatable, it would just take a lot more effort if the opponent took a substantial ammount of knights.

daryl_ks
30-06-2005, 00:24
Seems this kind of post pops up every few months or so.... What's the reason? Someone gets their ass handed to them on a plate and then decides to post a poll and find something that supports the fact??? Actually, that's a pretty good reason... (I might do that when I get my but kicked over the weekend...)

Anyway, pretty much any army has rules that can be taken advantage of... Call them cheesey, beardy, whatever you want... I find tht it usually (actually 100%) of the time comes down to the player that is utilising a certain army that causes the problem...

And so what if some armies are harder to beat than others??? If every army were equal that would provide us with a totally vanilla game that would be rather boring... I can go play chess if I want a game like that (not knocking chess, I love it...)

Warhammer has a great diversity amongst the races even though GW seems to want to do their best to balance. So if Chaos is super hard to beat, doesn't that just make that more delectable when you mow down those CK's with your puny little elves?


Cheers!

Daryl

Avian
30-06-2005, 00:26
And so what if some armies are harder to beat than others??? If every army were equal that would provide us with a totally vanilla game that would be rather boring...
So you wouldn't mind me playing with 20 pt Chaos Knights, then? I bet I could make an army you have never seen before. :D

daryl_ks
30-06-2005, 00:33
So you wouldn't mind me playing with 20 pt Chaos Knights, then? I bet I could make an army you have never seen before. :D


Sure! Why not? And I'll make all my Empire Knights Inner Circle and we can have right old cavalry rumble.....


Cheers!

Daryl

Avian
30-06-2005, 00:37
No, no, only I get the cheap cavalry. We don't want to make all armies the same, do we? You get to keep your list just as it is.

anarchistica
30-06-2005, 00:39
I mean both. Generally I am referring to a force constructed from an army book. However, in this case it can be applied to both terms.
So you're saying that an all-Night Goblin list (985 Night Goblins + a naked NG Big Boss) could beat a VC summoner army? Curious.


I don't think that any one book stands out as being better than any other, because the army books were written to be balanced to themselves--not to other books.
Nonsense. Of course the books were written with the other books in mind, otherwise the game would be completely devoid of balance.


I also feel that there is no such thing as the "perfect list"--as every list has its own weaknesses--whether it be reflected through special rules or point costs. Thus far I have yet to experience an "unbeatable" list--even the "easier to win with" lists are constructed around weaknesses.
There is no such thing as a perfect list, but there are some lists that are so powerful that if they even have a weakness it matters little and can likely not be exploited.

daryl_ks
30-06-2005, 00:49
No, no, only I get the cheap cavalry. We don't want to make all armies the same, do we? You get to keep your list just as it is.


ok, ok.......... but can I at least get a free halfling mercenary or two?



Cheers!

Daryl

Avian
30-06-2005, 00:55
ok, ok.......... but can I at least get a free halfling mercenary or two?
The army lists are fine as they are. If you feel you need to get mercenaries to compensate for some weakness in you army you are simply not good enough of a player.










If you don't understand sarcasm you have no business reading my posts.

Ganymede
30-06-2005, 01:33
I've played against any number of SAD skaven armies, and I've never lost. Why? I don't play an army that focuses on large amounts of elite infantry and calvalry. Unlike SAD, my army is a balanced affair and has an equal chance against elite AND horde armies.

I truly fail to see the logic behind taking a SAD army to a tournament environment. Why jeopardise your chances of willing first prize for the ability to tear up elite style armies? Why tempt fate?

Lordmonkey
30-06-2005, 02:10
The army lists are fine as they are. If you feel you need to get mercenaries to compensate for some weakness in you army you are simply not good enough of a player.










If you don't understand sarcasm you have no business reading my posts.

Is this like global sarcasm week!?

*runs screaming*

Lord Lucifer
30-06-2005, 12:45
Seems this kind of post pops up every few months or so.... What's the reason? Someone gets their ass handed to them on a plate and then decides to post a poll and find something that supports the fact???

Reminds me of a saying: A fool uses statistics as a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination



Anywho, There should always be a struggle in winning a game, that's really the point, having a challenge.
My problem is when the challenge simply becomes boring

The sort of game where you simply have to deal with getting shot at from a distance, and especially a game where you have to face the Sylvanian Vampire Counts list. Whoever deemed it appropriate to give Zombies a 4+ armour save in combat really, really needs to see what it's like to play against... not for the relative 'power', but simply for the game experience of getting bogged down at a 4+ save tar pit that never budges.

Most dreary experience you can have rolling dice

Megilain
30-06-2005, 13:20
Iīve played maxed summon hordes, Tzeench legions, Errantry raf and I still consider the Sad to be the most annoying and overpowering opponent. At least to my fairly balanced lizzards the deamons have always been an interesting opponent, the summon horde can be dealt with if you know how it works and at least the Raf kills in honest close combat, but thereīs nothing like blown to pieces by snickering rats before you make it to the enemys side of the table. The only other army that can be as unpleasant to play against is the empire artillery like the one vladdim discribed....

Kuro, Pitlord
30-06-2005, 14:25
as a few people have already said there are no overpowered or unbeatable lists they only focus on a aspect of the army itself which makes for a change in tactics and the way of playing.

and this cheese crap is just about unaccsepting players who cannot deal with defeat so they need to bitch about it in places like this.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-06-2005, 14:31
I don't think that any one book stands out as being better than any other, because the army books were written to be balanced to themselves--not to other books.

This is total nonsense. The books were obviously written with the other books in mind, and some books are clearly better than others in terms of versatility and game-winning potential.

Ethereal Alpaca
30-06-2005, 16:50
as a few people have already said there are no overpowered or unbeatable lists they only focus on a aspect of the army itself which makes for a change in tactics and the way of playing.


Right, so if you use the right tactics against the aforementioned goblin army, you wont suffer 4 bolt thrower shots, one stone thrower shot and one unnaturally accurate doom diver shot each turn? Not to mention a hideous amount of magic damage? :eyebrows:

Some lists can be made so they just don't require tactics to use, and in what is ostensibly a strategy game, clearly something is wrong.

fubukii
30-06-2005, 20:00
i thought there would be more votes against vc heh

Gotrek
30-06-2005, 20:04
i am more worried by VC having only 1 more vote than HE :O

fubukii
30-06-2005, 22:08
ehh i think dark elves are better then high elves after the new rule changes

Kom
30-06-2005, 22:36
Skaven. And seems that I am not the only one who believes this.

fubukii
30-06-2005, 22:40
it seems like its a skaven fest

DisturbeD_
30-06-2005, 23:50
round my area there is one guy who has a slayer army and all the people he has played he has won, now im not saying it's a sad army because one orc hero was able to go through 3 slayer heros purly because he got the first attackts. but it is very powerfull as he is bound to get first turn, and gets his 2D6 movement rule and then his normal movment which means he is a savage combat army in combat usaly by turn 2 and three latest which means not alot of shooting gets put at him