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Skyweir
12-12-2006, 23:36
I am sorry if this has already been discussed, I couldn't find a thread about it...now, unto rant...

Of all the armies in the entire game, Dark Angels must be one of the ones that needs a new codex the least.
If GW is only going to release 2 codecies each year in 40k, why make a Space Marine Chapter that can easily be played with the current Space Marine codex, some doctrines and a coat of dark green one of them? Dark Angels has access to the whole space marine range of great models, as well as some superbe old DA models. There is no need to update the modell range, nor the rules, for some time.

At the same time, armies like the Orks and the Dark Eldar (main armies, mind you, not a variant list) are screaming for an update. The Orks are hardly played outside of Speed Freaks, and the Dark Eldar isn't even afforded shelfspace in the stores. They have the oldest codecies in the game and have some of the oldest modells. In the case of the Orks they are one of the iconic races of the game, and one of the ones that shape the tone of the universe. That they are treated this way is a disgrace.

If it was one of many, or not treated as one of only two armies getting an update this year, then I would not begrudge the Dark Angels their codex. However, as things stand, my patience is running thin....
I say new codices for all main armies before variant lists!

NeonDante
12-12-2006, 23:45
Here here! There's enough MEQs in the world as it is.

scarletsquig
12-12-2006, 23:47
Well ork and dark eldar are nice, but they aren't exactly SPACE MARINES are they?

Do you want all the games developers to out on the streets at Christmas next year? And all the 'eavy metal team sitting on a kerb with "will paint toenails for bread" signs?
Because that's where they'll be if no new SPACE MARINES appear for a period of more than 3 months.

SPACE MARINES are great at making money, therefore, they are great. Think of the poor, razor-thin profit margin company!

Buy the new plastic SPACE MARINES :)

Bloodknight
12-12-2006, 23:53
Weren´t Black Templars sort of disappointing from a sales perspective?
I´ve also heard and read that the new DA models get quite a lot of flak in different forums (which I can understand, I find them not that great, more disappointing and hunky and not sculpted as well as models before them, akin to the new empire plastics).

The Machine GoD
13-12-2006, 00:02
I dont know if any of you actually played dark angels from 3rd to 4th however every single good thing about dark angels was removed. Their leaders were changed, their terminators changed. It definatlly was a codex that needed to be redone. Worst space marine chapter at the current time.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-12-2006, 00:10
Yeah, the every other army being space marines/imperial gets a little tiresome when orks/dark eldar ect need updating. Most of my friends have gone to fantasy because theres more variation, more armies and every other army isnt imperial.

marv335
13-12-2006, 00:45
why dark angels?
because it was their turn.

the release schedule is allegedly meant to go something like this;
imperium
enemy of imperium
imperium
enemy of imperium

so

we have had

space marines
tyranids
black templars
tau empire
eldar.

wait a minute!!
the eldar jumped the queue!!!

oh, wait a minute, it wasn't an objective question, it was another "waaa waaa waaa, the marines get everything, it's not faiiiirrr!!..... sob sob sob"
post
;)

my bad.

you may continue the marine-hating/GW is evil thread as normal.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-12-2006, 01:04
Hrm, I dont think any of us hate marines, well I dont. I just think variant lists should be the last thing to do in IMO...

Gutlord Grom
13-12-2006, 01:30
'Cause.
Orks are on the far horizon (okay, it's more of hanging on to the horizon with its finger nails).
Dark Eldar have almost non existent sales. People aren't exactly buying them out.
Dark Angels are however are Marines and therefore have a somewhat larger fan base.

Hey, marv335, wasn't it
Space Marines
Tyranids
Tau empire
Black Templars
Eldar

And two codexes a year?

marv335
13-12-2006, 01:34
could've been, either way, my point still stands.

==Me==
13-12-2006, 01:42
As stated before, the Dark Angels were more or less robbed of anything that made them unique with the new marine codex: DW were fearless light terminators, Ravenwing cost a lot more than normal bikes for ******* jink, and their rules have been horribly written from the start (compared to BTs, BAs, and SWs). Besides, making marine variants is fairly easy to do, cut and paste basic stats, add special rules, lots of fluff, and voila, a brand new Codex to keep the wolves at bay. Marine variants are easy to make because almost everything has already been playtested and just a few tweaks are made.

Orks and DE need a new Codex badly, but they are getting complete overhauls which may have already been in progress for a year or so or are just starting, while quick fixes like DA, Tau, etc have been keeping the release schedule constant and the consumer base happy.

So, in short, why not?

Takitron
13-12-2006, 02:15
Marv335++ FTW

Dark Angels get an update because of their variant lists (Deathwing being hosed, Ravenwing being.. ravenwing, and hopefully they talk about Ironwing as well). Honestly, I feel that Space wolves could have come out first, but eh...

Dark Eldar are classic range, thats why they dont have shelf space, and who plays them anyway?

Im looking forward to the ork codex though...

Tom
13-12-2006, 02:56
Because they're updating the stable but dull codices before they update the intreresting but problematic ones.


Hell, I thought they'd finally shut up since the Eldar got the best codezx written since '96, but evidently not...

VetSgtNamaan
13-12-2006, 04:33
Since I have no contacts in GW I do not know why they are releasing the DA codex before others. Though the idea that it is a simple fix rather than a a whole scale restructuring does seem to have logic to it. Regardless because of the impending release GW is getting many hundreds of dollars that would otherwise be spend on flames of war, reaper or dnd.

I do know our indie store has devoted zero shelf space to dark eldar and I can not remember the last time anyone bought a dark eldar model though I doubt anyone would when you can with some patience find them dirt cheap on ebay.

Yes marines do sell and they I have been told make up the lions share so it would make sense they get the lions share of the development expense. I have to admit though it certainly does get old the same old arguments about how marines get everything no one else gets anything. It is have gotten beyond the beating of a dead horse and more a beating of skeleton.

The Orange
13-12-2006, 04:51
First of all, the BIG 4 were comming wheather you liked it or not. So don't look at it in terms of "why DA instead of DE?", it's more of like "Why are DA comming before BA?" A lot of the SM range has been redone already, SM are very popular, what better way to boost profits here and there by re-releasing the same propular thing in a different flavor? All they need to do is update some of the units bit by bit with every release. Since most of the ground work is already done, Command Squads, Tac Marines, Assault Marines, Terminators, all of these have been revised already in previous runs of the SMs, thier is no need for a lot of new goodies, so a lot less time spent working on it. Plus guess who's going to be buying all those goodies when thier starting a new DA army (so a nice boost in sails for old products). On the other hand, they get to release a few things that do need to be updated "did some one say plastic Devistators?" wow, I wonder if only DA players are going to be buying those :rolleyes: (so lovely extra boost for newer products).


I dont know if any of you actually played dark angels from 3rd to 4th however every single good thing about dark angels was removed. Their leaders were changed, their terminators changed. It definatlly was a codex that needed to be redone. Worst space marine chapter at the current time.

Ditto on this. As I said earlier, it's more of a "why did this chapter come before that chapter?" issue, and quite frankly DA needed it much more the SW and BA, both of which i've herd are still quite playable. Not so with the DA ( I should know, my main opponent plays them). They lost so much freeking stuff that I think it's better to just use the regular SM codex rather then live with all the restricions and pts increases (for no apparent reason) of the current DA codex. P.S. my buddy switched to SoB, now that tells you how bad they've gotten, hehe j/k with you SoB players. But he's seriously contemplating weather he's even going to go back to DA or not (his first army).

Onisuzume
13-12-2006, 09:12
I do know our indie store has devoted zero shelf space to dark eldar and I can not remember the last time anyone bought a dark eldar model though I doubt anyone would when you can with some patience find them dirt cheap on ebay.
Well... the indie store nearest where I live still has Dark Eldar on the shelves...
Saw the Dark Eldar lord there just yesterday.
So not *every* store has them taken off the shelves, so they're not going to disappear. (yet)
And that with no Dark Eldar players in my area. >_>

On the other hand, they get to release a few things that do need to be updated "did some one say plastic Devistators?" wow, I wonder if only DA players are going to be buying those :rolleyes: (so lovely extra boost for newer products).
Oh yes, we all know that *only* the DA players will buy those plastic devastators.
And besides; all those metal robed bodies start to cost a lot when you want every sergeant&character in your army to have one.
Heck, the only character models with a robe are special character.
With very little converting possibilities. (try converting Ezekiel to hold a storm bolter)
(Even more if you want an all-robed army)
It's kinda like the 'nids with their gargoyles; you hardly ever find an army list with them because they cost too darn much. Same for the robed veterans.
At least the devastators are being bought because they need the heavy weapons. And with the popularity of the SMurfs, the plastic devs'll sell like crazy.

And yes, the Orks and DE need a new codex; so scream at GW for releasing the Black Templars before the Orks&DE. Not at the Dark Angels.

JeffJedi
13-12-2006, 09:56
The Dark Angels can be made with about 2 plastic sprues and a few new metal models, the Orks and Dark Eldar require much more than that.

In a way GW can make some easy money with the DA so they can later afford all the new stuff the other armies will need.

devolutionary
13-12-2006, 10:23
Bingo. With WHFB on the major push right now, Dark Angels are an ideal army to slot in. They're simpler than Blood Angels and Space Wolves (the former needs some in-depth work, the latter seems to be completely different with eacy release), they need minimalist model support, will push high sales, and are not that time intensive as Marines always sell heavily on their own merits, whether you like them or not. There is a lot on GWs plate right now, and God knows they are probably looking internally to see where they are losing sales (don't turn it in to one of those threads, PLEASE). DAs are a great stop-gap with great turnover with their models that are released, much the same as Tau, only with a bigger rules change and easier sales time. In the meantime, GW can work on pushing WHFB and ensuring that Orks and other such codices are developed properly. I have great hopes, especially based on the great codices released so far.

MaxORK
13-12-2006, 10:25
I am happy with the new DA release because I need some more Fallen!

Skyweir
13-12-2006, 20:39
There is a lot on GWs plate right now, and God knows they are probably looking internally to see where they are losing sales (don't turn it in to one of those threads, PLEASE). DAs are a great stop-gap with great turnover with their models that are released, much the same as Tau, only with a bigger rules change and easier sales time. In the meantime, GW can work on pushing WHFB and ensuring that Orks and other such codices are developed properly. I have great hopes, especially based on the great codices released so far.

Well, they are losing sales from me by not publishing Dark Eldar or Orks before Dark Angels....perhaps they should look into the strategy of "Space Marines must come before all others" if they are wondering why they are losing money...

Anyway, I didn't want this to be a marine-hating thread. I like Space Marines a lot, they have great background and models. Still, I am a bit sick of being force fed them all the time.

And by the way, seeing as the Dark Eldar has recived no support at all since they were released at the beginning of 3rd edition (except a small update to to fix their most glaring flaws) it really isn't that strange few people plays them. But I doubt the tactic of hiding the models and books away and not talking about it will increase the Dark Eldar sales much.

As for the Orks....well, there isn't really much to say...they are the green skinned stepchildren of 40k it seems. *plays Lament for The Orks in D-Moll*

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-12-2006, 20:50
'Anyway, I didn't want this to be a marine-hating thread. '

I dont think it has, I just think people have taken it that way. Perhaps because marines get alot of anti-ness ? I wouldnt know really, I dont play much tbh.

'Anyway, I didn't want this to be a marine-hating thread. I like Space Marines a lot, they have great background and models. Still, I am a bit sick of being force fed them all the time.'

Same, and iv been considering starting a 1000pt deathwing force lately. I'd just like a bit more overal balance, you know? if they want to do variant lists, it would be nice to see some for "other" races, like Altansar for Eldar.

'seeing as the Dark Eldar has recived no support at all since they were released at the beginning of 3rd edition (except a small update to to fix their most glaring flaws) it really isn't that strange few people plays them. But I doubt the tactic of hiding the models and books away and not talking about it will increase the Dark Eldar sales much.'

I like their concept, and I wouldnt collect normal Eldar again, but if they updated the codex and model range completely id definitly start them without a second thought.

Kahadras
13-12-2006, 21:17
I really can't say TBH. With the advent of 4th ed most armies are crying out for an overhaul. I do agree that DA really need a solid codex this time round rather than the pathetic excuse they got in 3rd ed. I'm going to assume that GW really wanted to bring out the 4 major divergent Space Marine chapters codices and decided to spread them out over the release of the other armies books rather than do them all togther at the end.

I would suppose this would lead to a couple of armies, then a SM chapter, then a couple of armies, then a SM chapter etc etc. It could be a way just to prevent Marine overload when the BT, DA, BA and SW get left till the very end and all get released one after another.

Kahadras

TheImmaterium
13-12-2006, 21:35
Besides, making marine variants is fairly easy to do, cut and paste basic stats, add special rules, lots of fluff, and voila, a brand new Codex to keep the wolves at bay. Marine variants are easy to make because almost everything has already been playtested and just a few tweaks are made.

Orks and DE need a new Codex badly, but they are getting complete overhauls which may have already been in progress for a year or so or are just starting, while quick fixes like DA, Tau, etc have been keeping the release schedule constant and the consumer base happy.


A new Dark Angels Codex will never keep the Wolves at bay! :p

But I do agree, I have faith enough in GW (Emperor forbid) that they're already working on the Orks and Dark Eldar somewhat, and will, either way, require a lot more time than a quick fix to the Dark Angels (who are, admittedly, a pretty cool chapter...especially since my Space Wolves lost a great deal of rivals since the new Marine codex came out)

Unfortunately, we all know it'll never change. The fact of the matter is the Space Marines make GW money, and they're not going to sacrifice their income. Period.

Takitron
13-12-2006, 21:46
@Skyweir: you cant lose sales on a line that isnt selling anyway (dark eldar) and Orks are comming out this year (IIRC). As pointed out by other people, DA take the least work to get the biggest bang.

I will admit I am a Dark Eldar hater. I just dont like them at all. Models, fluff, codex, idea... seems tacked on for the "I want to play chaos but not really chaos more like Robert smith from the cure with spikes" player

/thats right, I called you Goth. :skull:

BrainFireBob
13-12-2006, 21:46
GW, if you notice, is overhauling and releasing models for all the units in their codices.

Marines are the best place to start, being close to done already. So were Tau and Nids, then Eldar. Eldar had a very long playtesting process, which is why it was so late in the development cycle.

I'm with Tim, I thought getting the best codex since 96 would make this whiny bashing stop as well. But no, let's all be whiny little kiddies!

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-12-2006, 21:51
Wow, theres lots of whining about whining :)

BrainFireBob
13-12-2006, 21:54
You been on Warseer General Forums recently? There's been a ridiculous number of threads that were either Marine-bashing, or thread-jacked to Marine bashing since the release of the Eldar 'dex.

It's gone from a legitimate complain about being tired of only playing marines, to a stereotype of Marine players and Marine armies, to what frankly is beginning to reak of snobbish, elitism bigotry.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-12-2006, 22:02
i dont really read general much, I usually tend to stick to the backround and rules development forums. Why do people hate marines so much then ? I think they have very rich backround and mythology and alot of diversity in them.

Hokkaido23
13-12-2006, 22:48
So when Orks come out before Dark Eldar, will there be a whine thread about Dark Eldar getting ignored and how they are in need of a new codex? And then when Dark Eldar come out, will that thread morph into Necrons or some other army being ignored? And why every time a marine codex is released do people begin repeating the same tired old chant, "GW only cares about marines cause they want money"? Marines are iconic to the 40k world, thats why theyre popular. It'd be like Flames of War ignoring the Germans, theyre one of the major players and people shouldnt complain when the Stalingrad book gets released ahead of, say, Bulgarians.

Seems nothing GW does is good enough anymore. I rarely see posts saying 'wow GW did something right, and Im happy for X reason'; partly due to internet culture, where crying and bitching is tolerated and encouraged cause you can do it without consequences. Are people that spoiled and jealous? Rumor is Orks are getting a universal vehicle sprue, lets hope they take their time and get it right (cause all hell would break loose if people werent completely satisfied with it, there'd be no end to the crying threads). Dark Eldar are likely getting their entire range resculpted, I know Jes and Brian were trying to swallow as much warpstone as possible to grow those extra arms so they could work on everything at once but Im not sure how theyre progressing.:rolleyes: Lets all remember we dont know everything, and that GW might have some small clue about what theyre doing and why theyre doing it that we arent privy to, and maybe make a thread once in a while about something we like -- I assume people still like this game, right?

Griffin
14-12-2006, 06:37
Good one Hokkaido23 - In my oppinion GW is doing a good job. If they weren't we wouldn't be playing - they are a company so they want to make money, but if they didn't know ANYTHING they would have gone bankrupt long ago.

loveless
14-12-2006, 06:46
people always complain about anything that's MEQ, tis the way of life

as to why DA comes first, follow what the other logical posters have said - they were a quick fix, they just need a few updates, a couple sprues, and a new metal character or two

besides, it's not like the Marines are perfect anyway - we don't even have a model for all our options in the codecies! where are my plastic drop pods?

Nabeshin1106
14-12-2006, 07:13
In before Ork player complaints on model selection.

It's good that DA are getting their codex now. SW and BA don't really need any fixes, and will be fine until they get their turn.

I think a better release plan would have been Loyalist Marines, Xenos, Chaos Marines, Xenos, Loyalist Marine, repeat, but eh, what are we going to do.

Hulkster
14-12-2006, 07:28
I think the reason hardly anyone plays or buys dark eldar is that they look well I cant say the word but they do look *rubbish*

anyway i thought they were both getting done this year anyway

Bookwrak
14-12-2006, 07:52
why dark angels?
because it was their turn.

the release schedule is allegedly meant to go something like this;
imperium
enemy of imperium
imperium
enemy of imperium

so

we have had

space marines
tyranids
black templars
tau empire
eldar.

wait a minute!!
the eldar jumped the queue!!!


Cities of Death took the space for the Imperial Dex after Tau Empires.

I'm also highly amused at how Eldar has morphed to 'dark eldar/orks' in the whinging.

xibo
14-12-2006, 07:59
I think a better release plan would have been Loyalist Marines, Xenos, Chaos Marines, Xenos, Loyalist Marine, repeat, but eh, what are we going to do.

Hell no. Keep the imperial xeno imperial thing going. CSM is just more SM, and if GW is going to take out Black Legion/World Eaters/Word Bearers ( the ones played most ) for own codices it would just push the release for the other armies. Imperium isn't all 100% marines, and Chaos IMO should be reduced to far more cultists with much less marines in it.

@Hokaido: Unlike crons, DE are unplayable under their current rules.

Nabeshin1106
14-12-2006, 08:41
Sorry, my head was in Marine mode for a second. Something like this would be better: Imperium, Xenos, Chaos, Xenos, Imperium, etc.

That way Imperium is a catch all for those armies, same for Xenos, and whatever is planned for Chaos.

Hopefully more traitors and daemons, not so much marines.

Hokkaido23
14-12-2006, 11:34
@Hokaido: Unlike crons, DE are unplayable under their current rules.
Thats funny. Go to a tournament and play against someone who knows how to use them and you'll be singing a different tune. Besides, you missed the point - it wasnt that necrons are unplayable or deserve to be whined about, I was pointing out that no matter who gets a new codex someone somewhere will start whining that 'army X' is being ignored and its a travesty, blah blah blah.

Blessed Knight
14-12-2006, 11:54
when the SM codex was first released i'm sure I heard rumours that the groundwork for the other chapters were worked on at the same time.
by spending a small amount of time for rules tweaks and new figures, it leaves a greater amount of time for the none marine books.

the new Eldar codex is a good example of this. nice models, nice rules nice book layout. the amount of work gone into updating the Eldar seems to dwarf the DA codex / figures.

Skyweir
14-12-2006, 13:33
Why is it okey to go Imperium, Enemies, Imperium, Enemies?

The Imperium is one race, arbitery divided into not just not just different armies, but variants of different armies. The decision of which army to focus on should be out of need. The Dark Angels can be played with Codex:Space Marines, bone white terminators, black bikes and dark green on the rest. There are plenty of armies that can not....

And why do people think that because the Eldar codex was great (still debatable, by the way, as they kind of said that all Eldar has to make do with one list, unlike some power armoured people I know), those advocating the Orks and the Dark Eldar should be content. Just because one of the other races got some well deserved focus, we should now be fine with more Space Marines getting an update they don't really need? Even though they are only one of many armies more in need of help?

But this thread has made me realize one thing: People will defend the Marines to the point of absurdity. And that made me see that if I have to chose one camp, I will definitivly chose the marine haters.
I have previously stated that I do not hate marines, but I take that back. I do hate Space Marines. Not their concept or the background, not the army as it plays in the game, but what they represent. The kind of kneefall to "kweelness" that they seem to endear and the logic of "Space Marines sell so well, we have to support them to the exclusion of all else, so they will sell more" that has gripped GW of late. That is what I hate. A game can't prosper with only one fully supported army.
When it has come to the point where people think it is right and proper that every other codex should be about space marines, it is time to take a stand...

Down with marines.

veneto
14-12-2006, 13:41
Okay, whatever.

redbaron998
14-12-2006, 13:55
Because Dark Angels are so different from regular marines that to do a trait system in C: SM would be absurd. Plus for all you marine haters be happy there will be a little more variety within the marine world so your games will be a little different.

Mobiboros
14-12-2006, 14:06
Why is it okey to go Imperium, Enemies, Imperium, Enemies?

Because GW would like to continue making money. Each Imperium Codex they put out allows them to continue paying their sculpters, painters and game designers. Having them employed allows them to then spend time making codices for other armies, which won't make them as much money as selling the new figs for each imperium codex that is released.



The Imperium is one race, arbitery divided into not just not just different armies, but variants of different armies.

Yeah? And? If you are going to go that route one could say "The Eldar are one race. Why do they get 2 Codices, but Orks/Necron/Tau/Tyranids only get one?".

Does the imperium have more armies and variant codices? Yes, because that's what makes them money. The vast majority of people playing the game would rather imagine themselves as defenders of humanity against the threat of alien invasion and chaos corruption. So, GW caters to the bulk of their fans over others.

I am primarily a Necron player. I've been vocal in other threads about the flaws and lacking in the Necron. But I don't bitch about the imperium codices because each one allows GW to stay in business.

==Me==
14-12-2006, 14:08
I know it isn't worth arguing, but I'll do it.

Well, the Imperium is humanity, which is the focus of the entire 40k universe. Humanity holds the keys to galactic domination or their utter destruction, plus how weird would it be to not flesh out and focus on your own race, even in a fantasy/sci-fi setting? Marines and the Imperium are central to 40k, they have always been, so advocating for GW to stop supporting them is akin to advocating Microsoft to stop supporting Windows because Linux doesn't get equal treatment. GW is a business, and marines sell, simple as that.

Now, I haven't bought the Eldar Codex (I like Iyanden, but loath all things elfish, except DE) but from what I understand it got rid of all the abusive stuff (Seer Congress, Saim-Hann CTM Vypers of doom, Alaitoc Disruption, Reaperwind, etc) and made the Eldar list balanced, fluffy, and flexible. Now, if GW hates Xeno armies so much, why the good treatment on all Xeno armies with recent Codeces. Nids, Tau, and now Eldar have gotten good books and we should expect similarly great things with Orks and DE (two armies I'm looking forward to).

Stuff like CoD, DA, and the like are padding the release schedule to rake in some cash for little work on GW's part. The playtesting was done with SMs mostly, all the models are there, they just add a few things and rerelease it, making money that goes to development of DE and Orks, who both need complete overhauls.

Now, I think that online communities like this one can help bring about change by letting GW know what the gamers want. The Dark Elves, Dark Eldar, and 3rd edition DA revision are testament to that. I feel that constructive criticism and developing ideas only helps GW make our armies like we like.

However, I cannot stand senseless whining, like "Down with Marines" or "X army is nerfed, make it stronger" and the like. What does it accomplish other than insigating conflict (which I, like a sucker, have fallen for) and giving online communities less credibility. Look at the GW forums, there was a great potential for influencing GW that went down in flames (literally) and accomplished nothing thanks to whiners and trolls.

Marines and the Imperium are here to stay as the most numerous and supported armies, nothing bar a massive shift in gamer wants and attitudes. Besides, if they went to Human, Xeno, Human, Xeno... then we'd have less marines as IG and =][= would have to fit in also :P But, the other armies are not being forgotten. 4th edition so far has been a good sign of things to come in 40k, with overall balanced rules for every army in favor of maxed super pwnability and an increase in background content. If the last set of Codeces were any indication of things to come (I think they are improving each time) then DE and Ork players should be very happy. But don't stop proposing ideas and get the gamers' voices heard, just quit bitching people.

Savvy?

Sorry for the epic, I just feel something had to be said.

redbaron998
14-12-2006, 14:16
Well said Me. Besides if you look at the codex release schdule a codex Dark Eldar is TBC. So relax and be happy yo are getting updated soon. DA had to wait since 2nd edition as well for a real update, same with Eldar and Orks (orks are still waiting and will be till almost a year) Everyone will eventually get thier turn, ( Even my poor Gks someday) If you are so upset that your army is not loved enough and are gonna jsut DIE over it..start another army to preoccupie you till you get updated. Even if you hate marines Eldar jsut came out and tau not long ago, nids are pretty new and have great models as well.

We should be happy that GW has increased the quality of thier codex with the new Eldar format and the quality of the codexs before. Pretty much gone are the days of useless units like the old Swooping hawks and old Shining spears. Everything has a use now even if you dont agree with it.

Point being things are getting better. Overall better models and rules that I have no problem waiting a lil while for my update and as much as people whine about a particular army it is balanced, both for the good and for the bad. Every army has its str and weaknesses. Maybe its not really the lists that nerferd by the player and how he plays with it

Skyweir
14-12-2006, 17:00
Point being things are getting better. Overall better models and rules that I have no problem waiting a lil while for my update and as much as people whine about a particular army it is balanced, both for the good and for the bad. Every army has its str and weaknesses. Maybe its not really the lists that nerferd by the player and how he plays with it


Really.......well, if so, I can't see it.

And this is not about balance between armies, playing wise. There is no such thing as balanced armies in a wargame, or in war for that matter. My problem is with the support the different armies get outside of game balance. And that has taken a turn for the worse, not better (if you happen to play something other than space marines, that is).

It suprises me that people think that the fact that some Xenos races has gotten good codeces should justify ignoring others. It smells of patronising really, "Look, they already made some good codeces for other, completely different armies. That should satisfy you non-space mariners. Now shut up and lets get on to the serious buisness of Space Marines". It seems people really do divide the game between Space Marines (one side) and everyone else (the other side).
Also, let me express my hilarity at the fact that people stress the point that these codeces were good. As opposed to the crap they usually get.....But that is really beside the point.

As for the rest, it seems that most agree that there is a strong marine biast, but a lot of people think this is ok. Well, I disagree. And as these concerns are legitimate, it can hardly be qualified as whining when they are pointed out.
There isn't really anything more constructive to say than I have already done:
There are to much focus on Space Marines, their variant lists are being pushed more than full armies with ancient models and rules from early 3rd edition. The only way to solve this is to stop doing it. :)

Though I agree the Down with Marines thing was a bit over the top, I was kind of irritated at that point. But extreme opinions are not unwarrented when we have extreme situations.

Astartes delenda est.

Almost_Famous
14-12-2006, 17:21
I have to throw this out there also....

I'm willing to be that a large, multi-national corporation like GW is not simply working on a single project at a time, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least two, if not more armybooks are being worked on simultaneously
Add to that the comments made earlier about DA needing few models for an update (since most of their line comes from already redone Space Marines) and the fact that Orks and Dark Eldar will likely require MASSIVE modeling overhauls..
Add to that the (also mentioned before) fact that DA codex update will similarly require (relatively) little work - as it is based on an existing ruleset, and Orks/Dark Eldar will likely require major changes/work..


Its pretty easy to see why, from a business perspective, they are releasing Dark Angles, now, at this particular time - It would be foolish for a company like GW to expend all its resources to get a codex out faster (Orks) when it can keep that project on time, and release OTHER codexes at the same time, thus keeping the codex releases fairly regular and thus ensuring a steady income flow -- its just better business.

Think about it...

Zerosoul
14-12-2006, 17:30
It's been said before - the "Imperium/Xeno/Imperium/Xeno" thing is not an intentional plan, or if it was, it was abandoned long ago. They're redoing codexes wherein the models are easy to redo. And guess what? Marines are pretty darn easy, all things considered, since you only have to do a chapter-specific sprue, a couple of special characters, and maybe some metals to go direct-order only. GW only has limited resources with which to do all their given projects. They're currently in the middle of a big Fantasy push. So they have to devote more of their resources in that direction, to say nothing of not wanting to cut their own throat by releasing a big 40K release at the same time as a big Fantasy release and split their customer base.

Marines are simple to redo. Orks and Dark Eldar are not. Would you rather have a slapdash codex and only a couple new models? Or would you rather have a nicely balanced Codex like the Eldar and a whole mess of new models?

nightgant98c
14-12-2006, 17:39
The thing us non-marine players should appreciate is that the new books are coming. Maybe not as fast as we'd like, but they are on the agenda. Have a little fath that the extra time will result in a high quality product. If it's not, then you can complain and be fully justified.

Stormtrooper Clark
14-12-2006, 19:25
Because Games Workshop are all about the money, what Army in the entire game as a whole generates the most money? Space Marines, Dark Angels are a space marine Army so they think "i know lets release ANOTHER SM army and we can fill our pool of money even more!"

Skyweir
14-12-2006, 19:39
We should be happy that the new books are coming at all? That we are not getting only marines, but acctually some other armies spinkeled in when they get around to it?.....I see....you know, I never though that it was possible that these armies would never get an update, but now I see that I should be gratefull that GW has confirmed that other armies than marines will indeed be in the game in the future.....

I have no doubt that more than one book is in the works at any time. But GW are releasing the codeces so slowly now that there is only 2 each year, and one of them is Dark Angels. It is clear to me that they consider it a fully fledged codex wich needs as much time and support as the other codex to relased half a year later (Orks, from what I hear). If they were publishing Dark Angels now and that made Orks come out faster, and they managed to get a third codex out by the end of the year, I would not be too bothered by this. But DA are the only codex coming out for 9 months, or so say the roumurs.
And I wouldn't be suprised if Blood Angels or Space Wolves are after the Orks....

To answer Zerosoul, I would rather have a good, balanced codex. But if I have to wait two years for it, I'm not certain I want it anymore when it finally comes. Especially since by then a new edition will likely be in the works somewhere....

Astartes delenda est

Skyweir
14-12-2006, 19:50
Because Games Workshop are all about the money, what Army in the entire game as a whole generates the most money? Space Marines, Dark Angels are a space marine Army so they think "i know lets release ANOTHER SM army and we can fill our pool of money even more!"

This money argument is getting abit old. It's a circular argument:
Space Marines generates the most money, so they make more Space Marine rules, codeces, model variations and background books. They market these more heavily than other fully fledged armies, and more people buy them.
Which lead to:
Space Marines generates the most money, so they make more Space Marine rules, codeces, model variations and background books. They market these more heavily than other fully fledged armies, and more people buy them.
Which lead to:
Space Marines generates the most money, so they make more Space Marine rules, codeces, model variations and background books. They market these more heavily than other fully fledged armies, and more people buy them.
Which lead to:
Space Marines generates the most money, so they make more Space Marine rules, codeces, model variations and background books. They market these more heavily than other fully fledged armies, and more people buy them.
Which lead to:

Have you ever heard or read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? If so, you will remember the horrible fate of the planet Frogstar B, the most evil place in the Galaxy....Shoes were selling so well there that it eventually became economically impossible to produce anything but shoes on the planet, and the civilsation collapsed.
GW seems to be heading in this direction if you ask me.:p

Mr Hardehar
14-12-2006, 20:18
well,eldar didnt really need a new codex(many are annoyed that the avatar is now more than the give-away 80 points it used to be)but i take your point.being a DE player myself,i noticed that all the models and the codex have never really been mentioned,save for a few stats in a white dwarf.to be honest though, they arent that popular an army,so redoing them will be wasting more money than it will make, and the whole point of orcs is to be ruthlessly efficiant,brutal and simple.thats their attraction.complicated rule additions,and novel little bits which look sophisticated arent orky at all.the wierd thing is that i also collect dark angels(coincidence?...well..yeah)and ive always thought that their models were just space marines with shoulder guards,(thogh the deathwing are great,and the ravenwing have their jink move,which is kl)to be honest though,dark angels still look great,they are to space marines as monks are to buddhism|(and with the robes that similarity is made stronger) and their characters.they have three colours schemes,but i think the reason why they are being updated is that other chapters have way more model choice,space wolves have loads,blood angels have many pages in the catalog.whereas dark angels have.ooh.two.