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Yade
13-12-2006, 22:07
The new Empire models coming out have the worst faces of any model in the game. They are orky looking for one, they have bulging bug eyes and stupid expressions. All of the other armies coming out have cool looking new models, but not the Empire. I can see people taking the old heads and placing them on teh new bodies. There has to be some QC at GW where in someone looks at the molds and says "who is going to want to play an army with troops as dumb as this?"

I know the knee jerk reaction on a forum is for people to just instantly disagree, but I dont think that shold be the case. Look in the white dwarf and get a close up look of their faces. They must have been modelled by the creator of Wallace and Grommit...

End of rant and time to start stocking up on old Empire heads.

snurl
13-12-2006, 22:18
Yes, I was checking these out in the new WD last night after having read the last thread on this.

Most of the faces look like inbreeding runs rampant amongst the small villages and farms of the Empire, i'm suprised there's not a clear drool sprue included. I would have thought Brettonia would have peasants like that, but then again some parts of the Empire are rather remote.
Maybe GW should do a separate "Nuln head sprue" to make some more alert looking troops.
Love the powder monkey though. Looks like an ols Speed Racer cast member doing a cameo.

You are correct, older heads look a bit smarter. These new heads will also make for some cool zombies.

Bloodknight
13-12-2006, 22:24
I am not a fan, too. The heads are awfully crude and the models are not puffy enough.
I wonder if they´re computer sculpted.

snurl
14-12-2006, 00:55
After thinking about it for awhile-
If the new Empire soldiers heads (remember they are militia) aint pretty enough for you then why don't you switch to High Elves?

Bregalad
14-12-2006, 01:29
Well, I guess the Empire is not reknown for a well educated mass of peasants. Medieval foot soldiers were a rather rough and simple bunch of people. If you want every single soldier to look noble and intellectual, try some elves.

TheWarSmith
14-12-2006, 01:29
yet another reason why i like covered heads on my minis.

Sir_Lunchalot
14-12-2006, 02:04
Having worked on assembling a regiment of said soldiers just a couple hours ago, I have to disagree with your complaint. I very much like the appearance of the new Empire troops. remember, these troops are not as disciplined as modern armies. Remember these are common soldiers, they're not supposed to be all shiny and nice looking. the Empire corresponds to a time in human history where the military was a career option for the various dregs who could not find honest work. The pieces contain more than enough detail, especially when you consider that one would need approx 100 for a medium sized army. My only complaint is that GW has clearly made the Empire the best hung army in the Warhammer world. I mean, look at the size of their codpieces! The general on foot has a codpiece the size of his head! That said, I think it'll be interesting to have a standard bearer named Captain Package.

Inkosi
14-12-2006, 02:29
Its just a strategy of GW.

to make people buy other models for conversion.

Fideru
14-12-2006, 03:10
yet another reason why i like covered heads on my minis.

I completely concur.

Pokpoko
14-12-2006, 11:08
After thinking about it for awhile-
If the new Empire soldiers heads (remember they are militia) aint pretty enough for you then why don't you switch to High Elves?
they are equally bad, only in a different style:cries:
and no,they AREN"T militia.they are godamn professional,standing army-you'd think that at least some of them would look like they know one end of pike from the other?

Bloodknight
14-12-2006, 11:13
I don´t think it has to do with th elooks alone, more with the fact that these heads are awful sculpts. I am used to better stuff from GW.

Griefbringer
14-12-2006, 11:48
My only complaint is that GW has clearly made the Empire the best hung army in the Warhammer world. I mean, look at the size of their codpieces! The general on foot has a codpiece the size of his head!

You think that those cod-pieces are big? Wait until you see the fishmen! :evilgrin:

More seriously, isn't the plastic giant also pretty well stocked on this department?

Yade
14-12-2006, 15:39
Having worked on assembling a regiment of said soldiers just a couple hours ago, I have to disagree with your complaint. I very much like the appearance of the new Empire troops. remember, these troops are not as disciplined as modern armies. Remember these are common soldiers, they're not supposed to be all shiny and nice looking. the Empire corresponds to a time in human history where the military was a career option for the various dregs who could not find honest work. The pieces contain more than enough detail, especially when you consider that one would need approx 100 for a medium sized army. My only complaint is that GW has clearly made the Empire the best hung army in the Warhammer world. I mean, look at the size of their codpieces! The general on foot has a codpiece the size of his head! That said, I think it'll be interesting to have a standard bearer named Captain Package.


I am not asking for high elves or noble looking heads. I'd settle for a commoner that did not look like gumby. The lips were clearly made from applying rolled clay and then smoothing it out. The cheeks were dug in leaving that "jim morrison" meth cheek look, combined with a forehead that could be used for advertising.

There is no art in the new models, they are proportionally distorted and obviously made by a cartoonist. I was serious about them being made by the creator of Wallace and Grommit. Look up his models and imagine the lips blended, Bingo!!

The human body is a project in proportions; your eyes are one eye length apart. Your nose should be, normally, one eye in width at the end. Your pinky finger should be the exact length of your mouth. The distance between your 1st knuckle and the second knuckle on your index finger is the exact length of your nose, or close. etc...

My point is that these models are an attrocity in all form, they look stupid, literally, and they are proportioned like some mongloid monster. They are not human, they are half-orcs or something.

loveless
14-12-2006, 18:29
wow, i just have to ask - does anyone EVER say anything positive on these forums? I don't think there's been a single new mini that's come out from GW that the people here didn't complain about constantly.

You know what folks - go get a job at GW and do better if you don't like it. I'm not even gonna bother to come back to this thread. We know the new Empire heads don't look like scholars, but do you all have to breathe fire every time something isn't JUST how you wanted it?

Arhalien
14-12-2006, 18:35
@ Yade. On the subject of proportion - GW proportion is nopt meant to be perfect. It is heroic scale miniatures, with weapons much larger than they should be (HE archer champ sowrd anyone). While I agree that they may look a bit odd, get over it. It's just a range of miniatures which are intended to be a hobby, it's not something to get overly annoyed about.

gorenut
14-12-2006, 19:00
I seriously think it's just the paintjobs that have been applied so far. I've seen the minis first hand and they really don't look as miserable a bunch as some people make it out to be. GW just painted their teeth too bright while the gaps too big and black.

The boyz
14-12-2006, 19:55
From what I can remember, when I saw some of the new state troops, their faces looked alright. I only really had a quick look and that was it. But some of GW sculptings recently have left little to be desired.

Yade
14-12-2006, 19:58
A couple to respond to. First I think there are good things on the forums and there are good models coming out of GW. The last Eldar run was great. I am bringing up the Empire models because GW models are too expensive to market poorly sculpted and constructed garbage. People will buy them because they have to not because they want to.

Proportion is only optional if you consider quality an option as well.

My writing often sounds more passionate than it is intended to be. I thank god I do not need any new soldier models and I fully intend to sell my old empire heads to anyone that wants them.

Festus
05-01-2007, 12:41
Hi

I have to admit that I love the new Empire heads: The troops look as if they cannot count to ten - which probably is true. Not every footslogger is a rocket scientist, you know.

Festus

Move Fast Hit Low
05-01-2007, 13:02
i like some of the heads but the other ones look like the soldiers are annerexic, they have almost no skin on their cheeks!

Axel
07-01-2007, 23:25
My main complain on these heads is they all need some serious cutting around the neck, or they look like offspring of a slann. The detail was much better on the older empire regiments - luckily those of us who invested back then have the odd hundred heads lying around.

gorenut
08-01-2007, 00:00
Also on a side note... if some of you are like me and is actually planning to make mass purchases.. the pistolier box has disputeably better heads and more of them (like 16 or so). I will definitely be mixing everything together.

cheaky
08-01-2007, 00:11
I like most of the new heads. They look like how empire should be (well some provinces). Poor, disease ridden, dumb, brutal. If you were doing an army from stirland or some other poor province, the heads suit really well. However, I think if you wanted to do Reikland or some rich province, the heads wont suit so well.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-01-2007, 04:52
I think you should paint them all with unibrows and add clear resin spittle in the corners of their mouths and on their bibs. Also, protective helmets are a must. Their warcry could be, "Duuur!!"


Disclaimer: I love all of God's children and am a kind, compassionate soul. I also love making jokes. It's the duality of nature...or something.

Harry
08-01-2007, 05:23
I am not asking for high elves or noble looking heads. I'd settle for a commoner that did not look like gumby. The lips were clearly made from applying rolled clay and then smoothing it out. The cheeks were dug in leaving that "jim morrison" meth cheek look, combined with a forehead that could be used for advertising.

There is no art in the new models, they are proportionally distorted and obviously made by a cartoonist. I was serious about them being made by the creator of Wallace and Grommit. Look up his models and imagine the lips blended, Bingo!!

The human body is a project in proportions; your eyes are one eye length apart. Your nose should be, normally, one eye in width at the end. Your pinky finger should be the exact length of your mouth. The distance between your 1st knuckle and the second knuckle on your index finger is the exact length of your nose, or close. etc...

My point is that these models are an attrocity in all form, they look stupid, literally, and they are proportioned like some mongloid monster. They are not human, they are half-orcs or something.

Mmmmm. I have tried to ignore this thread but I can do so no longer.
'No art in the new models', 'A cartoonist', 'made by the creator of wallace and grommit'. I swear some folks just come on hear and say stuff just because they think it sounds cool to slag stuff off.
These were 'made' by Brian Nelson!!!!!!!!! Brian F@%King Nelson!!!!
I have found it interesting that both your threads slagging off these sculpts have run at the same time as a thread where everyone is wetting their pants at the suggestion that Brian Nelson was is sculpting the new undead.
Obviously some of these heads have been reworked by his talented collegues, Mike Anderson who did the incredible warrior priests that everyone is excited about, Steve Saleh who did so much on the wood elves evryone is excited about, Aly Morrison...well i am not even going to get into what he has done over the last 2o years!
These are talented guys Games workshop must employ some of the most talented figure sculptors in the world today/ever. Who are you? You can't just sit there hurling abuse at their talent.


wow, i just have to ask - does anyone EVER say anything positive on these forums? I don't think there's been a single new mini that's come out from GW that the people here didn't complain about constantly.

You know what folks - go get a job at GW and do better if you don't like it. I'm not even gonna bother to come back to this thread. We know the new Empire heads don't look like scholars, but do you all have to breathe fire every time something isn't JUST how you wanted it?

I agree with this. I just can not get my head around the motivation of coming on a forum and posting stuff like this. Never mind doing it twice! If I don't like something (and I am not such a rabid fan that I buy everything. There are things I don't like). I don't buy it! I don't feel the need to come on a forum and shout about it. I just don't buy it. Folks are always complainging here that Games workshop is so money/sales orientated. So what do you think they are going to take notice of some burk ranting on a forum or sales figures. They know when sculpts have been succesful and when they have not. If you don't like a sculpt, don't buy it. But don't come on a forum and slag off some of the best sculptors around and make yourself look foolish.

I think this all comes down to a taste. Something isn't C@%p just because you don't like it. It is just not to your taste. The last Empire state troops box was designed/sculpted by the Perry Twins. Now they have a very realistic style. There proportions are and faces are very 'realistic'. Now it could be argued that these have a more 'cartoony' to use your point 'style'. But you could also call this 'characterful' style. When miniatures have character they stop being nameless, faceless masses. They become individual soldiers. Each one a miniture work of art in its own right. Anyone of these rank and file would look like a character mini next to older sculpts because of the ammount of detail and time put into the sculpt. As a result you invest more time in painting them, units get names, they get given back story, history and character. They are not just Halberdiers they are 'The Foresters of Stirland'. They are not just Handgunners they are 'Hochlands 9th rifles'. ('Blunts rifles')

Don't get me wrong. I love the Perrys sculpts too and there metal Empire minis are full of character and still after all these years stand up to comparison with any sculpts for the Empire or any other army. The fact that classic minis still make the army book and indeed the range is testiment to this. But they are just different to the work of other sculptors not better not worse just different and not to your taste. Not cr@p. Just not to your taste.
Just try and get your head around that because I am so confident that you would not walk up to Brian Nelson or Aly Morrison or Steve Saleh, who are all lovely guys (have not met Mike. Sure hes a lovely guy too.) and say to their face what you are happy to say with the anonimity of the internet to hide behind.

Harry

NornTyrant
08-01-2007, 07:33
Cannot agree with you more, Harry. Have seen too many people complaining this or that to a certain degree that such complain is just to show how they are supreme to the others by a astonishing point of view. Like or dislike is one thing, banging on others for pleasure is another. Sometimes try to appreciate others people work could be a kind of pleasure to you and people around

For the model, I will not say it is very eye catching but they surely capture the look of an ordinary soldier in Empire. Their look are common and hey, they are common people. To a certain degree, I prefer the new one to the old one (Sorry, Perry Twins)

Voltaire
08-01-2007, 09:05
I agree with Harry, these troops are great and the talent of the sculptor shows through. If people want to complain about figures, try complaining about a certain large mechanical horse - something which deserves it.

Harry
08-01-2007, 10:14
Please lets not. Dave Thomas is another lovely guy.
It would be fair to say I have poked a bit of gentle fun at the horse myself but its not a critism of Dave Thomas's sculpting. He did do Kurt Helborg and he also did Vostorians and Marneus Calgar and the Space Marine command squad for 40K and some lovely stuff for LotR so its not like the guy can't sculpt! I just think they maybe chose the wrong concept art work. So the result is not quite mechanical/clockworkey enough in appearance. For my taste!!!

cheaky
08-01-2007, 10:41
i say lots of positive things loveless :(

static grass
08-01-2007, 11:17
When I saw the artwork for the empire I got quite excited about the empire and when I read the rumours I thought that these guys are going to be cool and I would do an empire army.

Unfortunately I have not seen one single new empire mini that I like and so I wont be collecting them. The style of sculpts puts me off - grr gothic... with a dirty great feather! The standard of the minis is often beneath the previous stuff - lets be honest nothing in the new range is as good as the greatsword minis. The scale increase is annoying me, Kurt helborg barely fits onto his base. I completely accept that others will think that I am wrong. I think empire range has generated more controversy than any other fantasy range so far away.

This is not a GW bash on my part it is just my fair opinion(tm), if I had liked them I could easily have dropped 200 quid on them for an army.

Athelassan
08-01-2007, 12:06
Mmmmm. I have tried to ignore this thread but I can do so no longer.
'No art in the new models', 'A cartoonist', 'made by the creator of wallace and grommit'. I swear some folks just come on hear and say stuff just because they think it sounds cool to slag stuff off.
These were 'made' by Brian Nelson!!!!!!!!! Brian F@%King Nelson!!!!
I have found it interesting that both your threads slagging off these sculpts have run at the same time as a thread where everyone is wetting their pants at the suggestion that Brian Nelson was is sculpting the new undead.
Obviously some of these heads have been reworked by his talented collegues, Mike Anderson who did the incredible warrior priests that everyone is excited about, Steve Saleh who did so much on the wood elves evryone is excited about, Aly Morrison...well i am not even going to get into what he has done over the last 2o years!
These are talented guys Games workshop must employ some of the most talented figure sculptors in the world today/ever. Who are you? You can't just sit there hurling abuse at their talent.

I'm not sure what your point is here. These figures have been made by a talented sculptor, so they're great, and if I don't think so I'm simply wrong? I'm sorry, I disagree. Even geniuses have their off days. Francis Ford Coppola created The Godfather Part III. Some of Mozart's early stuff is pretty ropey- and I don't have to be a film-maker or a composer to know or say so, either.

To be honest, I've never been able to get that excited about Brian Nelson's work in any case, so his name isn't the trump card you seem to think it is. In fact, his being associated with the project actually explains a lot to me, since I've always thought of him first and foremost as a sculptor of orcs.


I agree with this. I just can not get my head around the motivation of coming on a forum and posting stuff like this. Never mind doing it twice! If I don't like something (and I am not such a rabid fan that I buy everything. There are things I don't like). I don't buy it! I don't feel the need to come on a forum and shout about it. I just don't buy it. Folks are always complainging here that Games workshop is so money/sales orientated. So what do you think they are going to take notice of some burk ranting on a forum or sales figures. They know when sculpts have been succesful and when they have not. If you don't like a sculpt, don't buy it. But don't come on a forum and slag off some of the best sculptors around and make yourself look foolish.

Well, I'm sorry for being a burk, but there are some things I can't help. The reason I came here to complain was that I was so frustrated when I finally saw the models after all this build-up (the sneak peeks didn't give much away, either). I'm an Empire player- only, these days- and if I want to carry on collecting the only army that continues to interest me, "not buying them" isn't an option. I could have swallowed a price rise, but I don't like the idea of paying more for models I like less. I came here because I needed to get my voice out there somehow, and GW have thoughtfully closed their forum.


I think this all comes down to a taste. Something isn't C@%p just because you don't like it. It is just not to your taste. The last Empire state troops box was designed/sculpted by the Perry Twins. Now they have a very realistic style. There proportions are and faces are very 'realistic'. Now it could be argued that these have a more 'cartoony' to use your point 'style'. But you could also call this 'characterful' style. When miniatures have character they stop being nameless, faceless masses. They become individual soldiers. Each one a miniture work of art in its own right. Anyone of these rank and file would look like a character mini next to older sculpts because of the ammount of detail and time put into the sculpt. As a result you invest more time in painting them, units get names, they get given back story, history and character. They are not just Halberdiers they are 'The Foresters of Stirland'. They are not just Handgunners they are 'Hochlands 9th rifles'. ('Blunts rifles')

I'm not entirely sure why the models need to become more cartoony and look less like people in order to gain character. I was perfectly happy with the character my old state troop units imparted, actually. Fair enough on your point that they're just not to my taste- clearly some people do like them. But I hate them. And I'd have hoped people were intelligent enough to know that when people say "these things are awful" it in fact means "I think these things are awful". And I do. That is, in fact, my prerogative in western society. Just as it's your prerogative to think that the models are the best thing since sliced bread, and that I'm a burk.


Don't get me wrong. I love the Perrys sculpts too and there metal Empire minis are full of character and still after all these years stand up to comparison with any sculpts for the Empire or any other army. The fact that classic minis still make the army book and indeed the range is testiment to this. But they are just different to the work of other sculptors not better not worse just different and not to your taste. Not cr@p. Just not to your taste.
Just try and get your head around that because I am so confident that you would not walk up to Brian Nelson or Aly Morrison or Steve Saleh, who are all lovely guys (have not met Mike. Sure hes a lovely guy too.) and say to their face what you are happy to say with the anonimity of the internet to hide behind.

Actually, I may very well do that at next Games Day or next time I get an opportunity to meet Mr Nelson and co- I'd be happy to tell him that I really didn't like the models. I would hope that he's enough of a man to realise that when I say I don't like some of his work I'm not getting at him personally, and in fact if you read what I had to say on the other thread I in fact love some of the other models in this release. I just don't think "look over there! Don't you like that one?" is much of an excuse.

Ath

Dr Death
08-01-2007, 12:55
I think i have to disagree with you Harry, which is astonishing since there's a lot of good sentiment in your post but there is also a small matter of freedom of speech: people have a right to say that they think the sculpts are inferior and not merely 'not to my taste'. You have something of a bias being on terms of friendship with these people but to most of the rest of us they're just a bloke doing a job and if we feel they havnt done their job to a good enough standard we have a right to say.

You also mention how you dont grasp the motivation for coming on a forum and posting stuff like this but i make the point that if not for voicing opinions then what is a forum for? It's not like a pub where you can go in 'for the ambience'. There's a trap people can get caught in where they automatically assume critisism is depressing and compliments uplifting but gratuitous praise can be just as depressing to those that disagree with the sentiment as slagging something off can be to those who like something. There also isnt quite the matter of the 'anonimity of the internet' because lets face it, if people werent on here typing about how they disliked the models they'd be on the phone or face to face talking about it to their gaming buddies. That said there is a certain quality to the forums that elevates such matters to a level of importance far in excess of what it deserves. This is simply part of the territory. To make use of a deeply flawed saying 'Hate the game not the players'.

That said personally i like the models and beleive that with a little kitbashing they'll do alright for their purposes. I do not beleive the faces look 'appropriote' because i do not beleive that the empire are quite the peasents the brettonians are but neither do i think they look particularly awful and with a little work in the painting i daresay they'll do well enough. It's a different style of sculpting to the Perries who have defined much of the empire range but i do not beleive it is nessercarily an inferior one. There are flaws- the loss of ye olde slash and puff is a sore one and i beleive it would have made the troops look a little surlier and muscular but again the kitbash is a wonderful tool for dealing with such niggles. The old models needed an update, and this new lot certainly do that despite their flaws.

Dr Death

Harry
08-01-2007, 19:43
I am not sure I want to get back into this I said what was on my mind and I want to avoid the tit for tat arguments that sometimes occur. Soo I will try and make general comments rather than answer specific points if thats OK.

Athelassan. Never heard of you till the post above. I was talking about the other thread started by this poster with the similar comments. I hink it was deleted because some of it was offensive to some members. I Have now found your thread and read it again. Didn't have a problem with it the first time I read it...Don't now! Intelligent comment. Explaing in great detail why you don't like/are disappointed with these minis. I have never had a problem with folks that do that.

Dr Death. I find all your posts could be similarly described. I always find your contributions interesting and worth reading.

Firstly let me say, none of these guys would consider me a friend I have met them once or twice at the most but every time I have had the chance to meet any of the Games development team or sculpters I am always struck by what nice guys they are and by what hobby enthusiasts they are. These guys are all, collectors, modellers, painters, gamers. They just also happen to do it for a living but they are all still hugely enthusiastic about it.

My problem is when someone looks at six months work and takes the ****. Comes up with some smart **** remark or just says I think 'it stinks'. This simply is not fair. (You can not write off six months work with two words and be fair!) These guys are some of the best at what they do. They work with huge enthusiasm and try their very best to get it right sometimes under ludicrous design restrictions that you would not believe if I tried to describe them to you. Sometimes against all their instincts as artists and sculptors as to how they would do them given the creative freedom to do so.

(Ath, if I take one of your examples... It is alright for a film critic (or a man in the pub) to explain at length why Godfather III was a disappointing sequal and why it was inferior to the Godfather II. It is not fair to say that the Godfather III was made by a clown who does not know one end of a camera from the other. It does not give F.F Copolla the respect he has earned for his previous work).

I just think we should cut them some slack. Even on a bad day. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to voice it on a forum but let us do it in an intelligent and fair minded way as you guys did expaling carefully why we were disappointed not in a glib, sarcastic way as others have. I think these artists, writers, sculptors have earned that we give them that much respect.

For the record: I am a little disappointed with some aspects of these minis too. I will be doing one or two head swaps for the ones I don't like so much and a lot of damage to feathers with my craft knife before I get the spray can out!

loveless
08-01-2007, 20:06
i say lots of positive things loveless :(

aww, i'm sorry cheaky, but it's not like i was picking you out of a group to attack

it's just...i get defensive when something I like is under ridicule...it's like when someone tells you a movie you like is terrible or, on a small scale, when someone mocks your friends

to be quick, i likely over-generalized, but it seems to me that there are far more harsh tongues on warseer than there are considerate ones - even some of the History Bookers (you know, the ones who constantly complain how historically inaccurate this fantasy game is *sigh*) get overly pompous about things

back on topic - i like the new minis, disliking them does not make them "bad minis" it simply makes them minis that aren't your taste

you might not like The Lord of the Rings, but that doesn't make it a bad book trilogy...

Dr Death
08-01-2007, 20:30
My problem is when someone looks at six months work and takes the ****. Comes up with some smart **** remark or just says I think 'it stinks'. This simply is not fair. (You can not write off six months work with two words and be fair!)...Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to voice it on a forum but let us do it in an intelligent and fair minded way as you guys did expaling carefully why we were disappointed not in a glib, sarcastic way as others have.

This i wholeheartedly agree with. Critique and commentry is good but derogatory comments do not such make. Granted they are getting paid for it but none the less the sculpter has taken the time and invested themselves into creating the sculpts and so one should tread carefully and courteously around discarding that effort. I think people should analyse their complaints before presenting them so as to clarify the specific bad points of a model so those specifics can be challanged or agreed with.

...That said there are some stinkers in the ranges and i'm afraid that no amount of consideration for the artistic integrity of the artist can compensate for such. None the less that too should be dealt with at least courteously if not congradulatory and certainly not sarcastically or playing it for laughs.

Dr Death

Harry
08-01-2007, 20:37
Thank you. I wish I was a bit cleverer with words. That is all I was trying to say.

Athelassan
08-01-2007, 20:52
OK. Sorry to jump down your throat in that case :)

Ath

der_lex
08-01-2007, 21:54
As harry has already said, I like just about all of the new models. Including the 'rougher' faces, hats with feathers and the powder monkey (heck, I love the powder monkey).

The only thing that I don't like as much is the Clockwork Horse. It's not an ugly model, but it's just not what I had hoped for.

It's all a matter of taste, of course, and I won't begrudge anyone their opinion. Just thought the thread could use some more positive feedback as well. The balance must be served ;) .

gorenut
08-01-2007, 22:39
I'm wondering why these things always have to get dragged into a long argument. Putting your two cents is find and dandy, but not creating multiple threads about it. The models are already done and it's not like anybody being vocal about it now is going to change anything. If you don't like the models, simply don't buy them. Atleast this time around, people aren't blatantly putting each other down for their own opinions on the models.

I don't understand the scale complaint either. As I was putting together my new swordsman yesterday.. I put him next to my Free Company converted Swordsman... if anything, the new guys are smaller than the Free Company. About the same height.. but the Free company was noticeably thicker overall. The new State Troops aren't that much bigger than the old spearmen who I thought was kinda small to begin with. If a single character looks larger, I think it's all good as long as it makes the model look better. A hero is like a centerpiece anyways.

Sanjuro
08-01-2007, 23:07
I, for one, lament the loss of puffy sleeves and trousers with this new edition of Empire models. Other than that, the models are great, but this irks me something fierce.

Akhenaton
09-01-2007, 05:50
For what it's worth I think Brian Nelson is second only to Jes. However if the Empire State troops are his work then I'm afraid he has just hit his personal low.

Considering the price GW wants to charge for those models I expect better.
I have no idea why readers of this forum consider ugly to be synonymous with uneducated. If all the posters here were raised in a village sans education would they suddenly become a great deal uglier.

My Empire army will not be updated with the new troops because I consider them too ugly. Sales have been lost due to poor sculpting end of story.

If you want to sell Mercedes make them look like a Mercedes.

loveless
09-01-2007, 06:07
and yet, plenty of other people are buying the new Empire Troops because they prefer them to the old ones...so sales have been gained

some have been lost, some have been gained

It all comes down to taste.

I mean, heck, why buy a Mercedes when I can buy a Jaguar? :P

Harry
09-01-2007, 08:55
[QUOTE=Akhenaton;1204207]For what it's worth I think Brian Nelson is second only to Jes. However if the Empire State troops are his work then I'm afraid he has just hit his personal low.

But you don't explain why in an intelligent and informed way...after all that has been said.
Not all the heads are Brian Nelsons for a start. He has produced 'dollies' and other sculptors have used these to produce the selection of heads. So you say he has 'hit a personal low' but it may not even be his work that you are talking about. This is not fair.

My point is still being missed. I am not saying every bit of Green stuff touched by Brian Nelson (or any other sculptor for that matter) turns to pure gold I am saying that considering the talent they have and the work they have done in the past that hours, days, weeks, sometimes months of work (produced within the tightest and most resrictive design brief imaginable) deserves better than being written off with a snappy one liner. To write off this work as "poor sculpting end of story" is not fair.

Which specific parts of the kit don't you like? Which heads, which bodies, which design decisions about one piece bodies or kit sculpted on rather than extra bits, the size of the feathers or the guns etc, etc. are you not happy/disappointed with. Lets just try and make some intelligent and constructive critism or lets not bother!

Corax
09-01-2007, 10:42
wow, i just have to ask - does anyone EVER say anything positive on these forums? I don't think there's been a single new mini that's come out from GW that the people here didn't complain about constantly.

A lot of people come here for the express purpose of complaining! Around here, it's pretty much "I gripe, therefore I am." A lot of the complaining is just hot air and the old truism that you can please everyone is doubly true when it comes to gamers, who are a notoriously finicky lot. Besides, what would we talk about if we weren't complaining? Think how boring the forums would be if all we did was talk about how great everything is.

That said, its not unreasonable for people to intelligently critique the products GW releases. As consumers of the products that GW produces, we are entitled to comment on and discuss the quality of said products. However saying, "Deze noo troopaz r teh suXXor!!!1!!11!!!" is not very helpful.

In this particular case, the new state troopers remind me a bit of the new plastic SM Scouts in 40k. I'm not particularly enamored with them, as they are rather square jawed and gormless looking - but that is a personal opinion. I'm not sure what it is, but the heads just seem too... wide/big/fat/???

Ultimately people will vote with their wallets on this one. Even if they are a bit goofy looking, they do the job alright. It's not you expect basic troops to look that amazing anyway.

gorenut
09-01-2007, 11:44
[QUOTE]



My point is still being missed. I am not saying every bit of Green stuff touched by Brian Nelson (or any other sculptor for that matter) turns to pure gold I am saying that considering the talent they have and the work they have done in the past that hours, days, weeks, sometimes months of work (produced within the tightest and most resrictive design brief imaginable) deserves better than being written off with a snappy one liner. To write off this work as "poor sculpting end of story" is not fair.

I have to disagree with you Harry.. and even go as far as to say that you are blatantly wrong. Evertying Brian Nelson touches does in fact turn into gold. I have the evidence. I once met the bloke, shook his hand... even 'til this day.. my right hand is solid gold (now I can only imagine the inappropriate comments coming my way).

scarletsquig
09-01-2007, 15:50
]In this particular case, the new state troopers remind me a bit of the new plastic SM Scouts in 40k. I'm not particularly enamored with them, as they are rather square jawed and gormless looking - but that is a personal opinion. I'm not sure what it is, but the heads just seem too... wide/big/fat/???

That sums it up pretty well for me... they're just too big - as an animation student, I'm well aware of the "larger head = more cartoony" syndrome.

Okay, GW models aren't always the most well proportioned, but when you start messing with the 7:1 height/head ratio, and the positioning of basic features on the face it will notice, since the head is the focal point of the miniature.


Ultimately people will vote with their wallets on this one. Even if they are a bit goofy looking, they do the job alright. It's not you expect basic troops to look that amazing anyway.

Yep, the basic troops I have from the last range will do just fine, not replacing them for these, especially with the price tag.

I can't say I dislike every part of the sprue (and the new poses are nice), but in general, they're looking more like a circus act than professional soldiers.

Too much of a stylistic change across the range IMO - screwing too much with the most basic troopers of the most basic army in warhammer isn't such a great idea. People know what empire are like, and don't really want to want to see it twisted by other influences, or some mad concept artist's latest radical vision for the range. Other warhammer armies have benefitted greatly from new ideas, but empire is a pure case of "ain't broke, don't fix it".

And this is a pretty radical change - the clothes are all different, and there's too much added that has never been part of empire background and makes no sense on an average soldier- It's like if a new concept artist suddenly decided all space marines would look better without shoulder pads, and with extra skulls on them.

There's also the repetition of ideas that people dislike about the new empire models, and for the most part, I agree with them - far too many nods to gothic and steampunk styles throughout the new range. Combined that with a traditional military style and grubby peasent meat, and it's just a bit of a mess, really... I don't understand what the "style concept" for the new empire army is at all. Usually GW art/design department does a really good job at defining stuff like this, but it's fallen flat on it's face here.

I hope I explained my thoughts well enough to avoid simply whining, but really, the entire real-world impact of the post can be summed up with:

"Squig has an empire army. Squig isn't buying the new empire models because he thinks the new state troops are kinda "meh" and IS NOT paying 24 for a warhammer regiment"

gorenut
09-01-2007, 19:20
That sums it up pretty well for me... they're just too big - as an animation student, I'm well aware of the "larger head = more cartoony" syndrome.

Okay, GW models aren't always the most well proportioned, but when you start messing with the 7:1 height/head ratio, and the positioning of basic features on the face it will notice, since the head is the focal point of the miniature.






Are you complaining that you think GW is going towards 7:1 head ratio? If anything.. that is more around the norm of a human being. 8:1 is for a tall/modelesque person, anywhere beyond that you have superhero proportions. On such small models.. if you were to even go close to 7:1.. the heads would be really tiny. It'd be hard to put any paintable details on it. GW 28mm line is closer to something along the lines of 5:1 head ratio. I suppose some helmeted head might be closer to a 7:1 ratio if you take into factor that the person's head is smaller due to it being inside the helmet.

Kidjal
09-01-2007, 19:36
Bought the general and detachments sets today, and I'm impressed with the variety of gubbinz and such... the general is really impressive when you put it together with thought. But the moulds.. the moulds! Terrible, dark greay plastic with a mould line for every occasion and softned, rounded edges, rather than the crisp edges you could cut yourself on before.

Not impressed.

Dosadi
09-01-2007, 20:25
Just think, we could have had empire miniature based on these designs.

http://www.gaelion.com/photos/imp_sold1.jpg

http://www.gaelion.com/photos/imp_sold2.jpg

Instead you have the ***** ones they released. Why?
I understand Felix doesn't work for GW anymore, but really would it have been that difficult for another designer to pick up where he left off? These models are the closest to the artwork and imagry of the Empire. They have great 'human proportions and are sutably baroque.
Personally I don't have many problems with the handgunners/crossbows. But the state troops are pretty lame.

GOOD THING I PLAY ORCS & GOBLINS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA SUCKERS!

That was uncalled for...

Dosadi

Arhalien
09-01-2007, 20:30
gah, those felix models with nice poises would have been superb. I'm stiull not sure about the new models, sometimes they seem too cartoony, at others they're ok. hmmm, if only those Felix one shad been made.
enters into a revery wondering what might have been

Paulus
09-01-2007, 20:56
I understand Felix doesn't work for GW anymore, but really would it have been that difficult for another designer to pick up where he left off? These models are the closest to the artwork and imagry of the Empire.

I have a funny feeling going of his previous Avatar's of War releases (Dwarf then Orc Shaman) that Felix may just release an Imperial hero type next.

The Judge
09-01-2007, 23:22
I look forward to that. His models are nice and frilly... oh how I miss the frills and such.

loveless
09-01-2007, 23:26
eh...i for one dislike Felix's models - for the spearmen, at least!

they're very "blah" poses

now, if they would put those heads on the new bodies, great!

Akhenaton
10-01-2007, 05:42
[QUOTE]

But you don't explain why in an intelligent and informed way...after all that has been said.


Harry

Quite frankly I don't have to. GW sells based on aesthetics, I look at their models and I want to buy them or I don't based on how good they look.

How many hours the designers put into them, or how tight the schedules are is quite frankly not my problem and I don't care. I work in software, if I give you a piece of software that does not work do you care that I was overworked or that my schedule was to tight? Or do you simply care that the product does not work?

GW is not afraid to charge high prices or claim that they are the best, therefore they need to live up to their self produced hype or they will get criticised.

As to the models I think the faces are some of the ugliest I have ever seen, they make beastmen look pretty and the feathers are quite frankly far to over the top. Do they raid ostrich farms or something?

I quite frankly do not want to spend money on a kit that I have to seriously convert to stop looking hideous.

Look at those conversion ideas on their web site, even their own staff felt the need to get away from those heads. :rolleyes:

Chiron
10-01-2007, 07:46
I remember the uproar that was unleashed when those Felix empire models were shown, so lets not start down that road...

as for the new empire models, I just plain dont like em,missile weapons are huge, single pose models make me want to hurt something (boring to look at, boring to paint, took me months to paint the old spearmen), the faces look hideous and I'm really not fond of that powder monkey as it looks stupid and not all that monkey like (unless your watching a cartoon) and the sprues I've seen look rather roughly cast

I dont care if Brian Nelson feeds the starving kids of Africa and heals the sick, the models are terrible and thats all there is to it!

Captain Cortez
10-01-2007, 08:37
I dont care if Brian Nelson feeds the starving kids of Africa and heals the sick, the models are terrible and thats all there is to it!

Chiron basicly sums it up.

Someone who is a long time Empire player (Ostland) I am very disapointed at the new Empire soldiers also. Faces look way to blocky! And whats with the over sized calves look:wtf: ?

I really hate to bash GW but they really should be ashamed of how much you pay for such ugly looking models. I don't think I'll ever warm up to them.

My wallet is staying closed for this round of Empire stuff.

Vandur Last
11-01-2007, 05:30
Im not really GW's target audience for Empire anymore, since i have already bought far too many State Troops to ever use in a single game. Perhaps this is why they changed the look of them so much, to entice people who didnt like the way they looked previously?

I dont like the models, they look dumb. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it. Tell all the sob stories you like about artistic integrity and how nice the guys who made them are and it still wont change my mind on whether or not i like the model. Indeed it wont even change my mind about whether the model is any good, all you can do is convince me that YOU/OTHERS like something that i think is no good.

Another thing annoying me about this thread is why some people seem to be equating not liking the models with being rude or dismissive to the modellers and their efforts. I knew a girl in school who was a lovely young lady that never meant a spot of harm to anyone and was always polite. In the 11th grade she wrote an in-class essay that Abraham Lincoln lead the Americans to victory against Stalin and Hitler. Would it have invalid, rude or insensitive for the teacher to give her an F for that?

I think im rambling a bit here, but my point is that you cant just tell people that everything they do is correct and really good.

To re-iterate... i think the new State troops models are no good. I wont be buying any, but i wasnt really in the market for some anyway.

PS: Are Empire troops withour puffy sleeves still Empire troops? What about Elves without pointy ears...?

Hochdorf
11-01-2007, 05:54
I have to agree that they are pretty bad models. I don't want to be overly negative, but the new Empire range hasn't impressed me. Some of the new special characters are superb, but the troops are lame. For the record, I also thought that the previous state troops were pretty boring miniatures (although better than the new ones). My main complaints about the new models are: the faces, the poses, the skulls, the HUGE feathers and missile weapons, and the ridiculous shoeless guy. Also, now that they have removed the puffy pants, it looks like they are wearing form-fitting spandex. No thanks. The mechanical horse is also one of the worst WHFB miniatures I have seen in a long time.

I hope that if/when they release new plastic knights for the Empire they will be better than the state troops. If they look anything like as good as Kurt or Ludwig, then they will rock.


I'm also curious to see what the new O&G and Dwarf plastics look like if they come out next summer. I hate the new Spider Riders (or more specifically, I hate the spiders, not the riders). But I LOVE the new Night Goblins and have started an army of them basically just because I like the miniatures so much. I hope the common goblins and regular orc boyz look as good as the nighties when they finally get redone!

Jhayden
11-01-2007, 06:44
I think the new models are fine. They look the way I would imagine peasants from the 13th century would look like. Malnurished, disfigured, dirty, diseased. If you look carefully, it's only the foot troops which look like this, the commanders are all very 'handsome' and the knightly orders look just as badass as they should.

The Warrior Priests look pretty tough, and the flagellents look just as crazy as they should (although they're not different models). I think it all works out in the end.

gorenut
11-01-2007, 08:00
I think the new models are fine. They look the way I would imagine peasants from the 13th century would look like. Malnurished, disfigured, dirty, diseased. If you look carefully, it's only the foot troops which look like this, the commanders are all very 'handsome' and the knightly orders look just as badass as they should.

The Warrior Priests look pretty tough, and the flagellents look just as crazy as they should (although they're not different models). I think it all works out in the end.

Agreed. And honestly, the heads aren't even that bad. There are a select few that are.. but they give you plenty enough to not use the questionable heads. Also, I think most the complaints are based on the GW painted models. Their "spandex" pants are no different than the Free Company pants. It's just the way they're painted.

Dr Death
11-01-2007, 09:43
@ Vander Last- I dont think people are complaining about people expressing their opinions, merely the manner in which they do that. People seem all too willing to throw cheap insults at the sculpters just because their personal taste doesnt endear itself to the sculpters efforts. Glib comments are added to posts in order to make them seem punchy or even to provoke a response but the result just makes such people look like arrogant tits. Not a million years ago there was even someone insulting Aly Morrisons marital situation as a potential cause for these very models that they thought were rubbish. Courteousy is essential, miniatures take time to sculpt and ultimately enless you could do better yourself you have to treat the sculpter with a little respect and reverence (and even if you can do better the same helps)

Dr Death

Kjell
11-01-2007, 10:01
Well, don't those look subtly wrong. Skinny legs, too large heads... And the barefoot guy. Who thought that was a good idea? Needless to say I am not overly impressed. :p

Athelassan
11-01-2007, 11:45
I think the new models are fine. They look the way I would imagine peasants from the 13th century would look like. Malnurished, disfigured, dirty, diseased. If you look carefully, it's only the foot troops which look like this, the commanders are all very 'handsome' and the knightly orders look just as badass as they should.

This, for me, is part of the problem. When they released the Bretonnians they said that the "malnourished early mediaeval peasant" look was one they had gone for to differentiate the Bretonnian men at arms from the Imperial soldiery, and these models have just erased a lot of the differences. (Having said that, the period c.1150-1300 was actually pretty prosperous and enlightened and the quality of life was probably rather higher than it was a hundred years later or so).

Apart from anything else, the new range demonstrates a degree of chronological inconsistency that makes me want to cry. What they seem to have done is taken a 11th century peasant (and that's being kind; half of them look neanderthal), dressed him in a uniform from god-knows-when, and put a 14th century helmet on him, or a hat from about 1640. Then they've given him a handgun from the early 15th century, stolen the poor guy's boots and given him a place to stand on the battlefield. To the dude's right are some knights from the late 15th century, to his left a steam-powered traction engine from the late 19th. Behind him are a cannon from the 16th century, and a rocket battery from 1942. And standing in front of him is a guy dressed in a Renaissance outfit but riding a robot horse from the 24th century.

Until now, the Empire range has always been fairly strongly rooted in what I would term the long 16th century (c.1485-1618)- the knights come from the start and the pistoliers from the end and everything else from roughly in the middle, with the odd anomaly like the flagellants and the steam tank (which to be honest always looked a little out of place anyway). Now it's all over the shop, and the overall look of the army makes me cringe... but most other armies have managed to retain their consistent historical theme and look- the Bretonnians, the Dwarfs, even the lizardmen.

That I don't actually like the models themselves (and I don't) is really just the icing on the cake.

Ath

Harry
11-01-2007, 11:57
@ Vander Last- I dont think people are complaining about people expressing their opinions, merely the manner in which they do that. People seem all too willing to throw cheap insults at the sculpters just because their personal taste doesnt endear itself to the sculpters efforts. Glib comments are added to posts in order to make them seem punchy or even to provoke a response but the result just makes such people look like arrogant tits. Not a million years ago there was even someone insulting Aly Morrisons marital situation as a potential cause for these very models that they thought were rubbish. Courteousy is essential, miniatures take time to sculpt and ultimately enless you could do better yourself you have to treat the sculpter with a little respect and reverence (and even if you can do better the same helps)

Dr Death

Good grief...this place is hard work sometimes.

Dr Death. Thank God for folks like you that actually read and understand what has been written.

No on is saying you can not dislike a sculpt.
No one is even saying you can not come here and say you don't like it.
All I am saying is you can't just slag it off in a couple of words and give the sculptors the credit they deserve for the time, care and talent that has gone into its creation.

Jedi152
11-01-2007, 12:07
Well i like them. Sorry if that makes me a pariah.

There are just 2 heads in the state troops i don't like, but i love all the others. Especially the one with the muttonchops on the missile sprue! :D

gorenut
11-01-2007, 12:34
This, for me, is part of the problem. When they released the Bretonnians they said that the "malnourished early mediaeval peasant" look was one they had gone for to differentiate the Bretonnian men at arms from the Imperial soldiery, and these models have just erased a lot of the differences. (Having said that, the period c.1150-1300 was actually pretty prosperous and enlightened and the quality of life was probably rather higher than it was a hundred years later or so).

Apart from anything else, the new range demonstrates a degree of chronological inconsistency that makes me want to cry. What they seem to have done is taken a 11th century peasant (and that's being kind; half of them look neanderthal), dressed him in a uniform from god-knows-when, and put a 14th century helmet on him, or a hat from about 1640. Then they've given him a handgun from the early 15th century, stolen the poor guy's boots and given him a place to stand on the battlefield. To the dude's right are some knights from the late 15th century, to his left a steam-powered traction engine from the late 19th. Behind him are a cannon from the 16th century, and a rocket battery from 1942. And standing in front of him is a guy dressed in a Renaissance outfit but riding a robot horse from the 24th century.

Until now, the Empire range has always been fairly strongly rooted in what I would term the long 16th century (c.1485-1618)- the knights come from the start and the pistoliers from the end and everything else from roughly in the middle, with the odd anomaly like the flagellants and the steam tank (which to be honest always looked a little out of place anyway). Now it's all over the shop, and the overall look of the army makes me cringe... but most other armies have managed to retain their consistent historical theme and look- the Bretonnians, the Dwarfs, even the lizardmen.

That I don't actually like the models themselves (and I don't) is really just the icing on the cake.

Ath

Yes... welcome to the realm of fantasy.. more specifically, Warhammer.

Dr Death
11-01-2007, 13:16
I'm somewhere between Gorenut and Athelassan on the entire 'historical accuracy' point. On the one hand i do agree that Warhammer is a predominantly historical based wargame- Kinda 'A history of the world...with monsters' and so it should 'pay it's dues' to the source of their inspiration. But on the other hand it is fantasy and certain things defy strict historical guidelines. History is an inspiration rather than a rulebook so i really couldnt give a monkies whether helmets or technologies fall outside the precise real world timeline by a century or so either way or even something completely oddball is added where there is reason (steam tank/gyrocopter etc). The important thing is that the races retain their real world connection and continue to offer interesting tid-bits taken from historical sources.

Dr Death

Voronwe[MQ]
11-01-2007, 14:33
My complaint about the new models had rather to do with some of the clothes, but certainly not the heads. Yes, the heads is perfect for Penal Legions, but whilst I'd personally like a mix up of those already in the box along with more "Nulnish" ones, I have no complaint at all on the heads.

@Loveless: Hm, I think you've missed the numerous times people greets new GW models - I certainly does. Or perhaps its mostly those who don't like it who gets involved in such discussions.

Voronwe

Dededada
11-01-2007, 15:02
I saw the "rocket launcher" and all I could see was a WWI battery of some kind. As far as the other units, I don't really see the problem with them as much as everyone else. Plus the horses look awesome. :)

Athelassan
11-01-2007, 16:51
Yes... welcome to the realm of fantasy.. more specifically, Warhammer.What has always distinguished Warhammer for me from, say, Forgotten Realms, or any of the other dull-as-ditchwater stock fantasy campaign worlds produced by Wizards, etc etc, is that it retains a strong theme of historical parody, and the Empire is, and always has been, a pastiche of the Holy Roman Empire (really, central and eastern Europe as a whole), somewhere aroundabout the period of the Renaissance. Just as Bretonnia reflects Dark Age/early Mediaeval western Europe, Tilea represents the Italian Renaissance city states and Kislev has strong Russian themes. Of course, there are anomalies in all of these, but since it's only one or two they don't look too out of place.

To me, the effect of the new Empire range has been (not entirely, but beginning the process) of taking influences, looks and themes from a huge variety of otherwise unrelated historical periods and throwing them in a blender. What emerges at the other end lacks a lot of the individuality which made me like the Empire so much to begin with- I've already pointed out that now the soldiers are only really differentiated from the Bretonnian peasants by dint of their wearing uniforms, and that seems to me to erode the differences between the different human realms in-game.

I'm not going to argue that Warhammer is a historical battle game, because it clearly isn't. But the historical influences on it are, to my mind, what differentiates it from inferior fantasy, and losing them is, at least in my opinion, a mistake.

Ath

loveless
11-01-2007, 18:48
For me (and the groups I travel in) what makes fantasy drawn from history ("influenced" fantasy, if you will) fun, is that fact that you COMBINE so many parts of various histories - not a bit of Chinese history and a bit of Roman history, but rather a bit of 11th Century and 16th Century. It really lets a person get the best of all the worlds.

And really...I don't see what the problem with the new Empire models is. I always, always thought that the old models lacked character. They were just "blah" and looked better suited to stand guard at an Imperial Bank than go fight a war. The new models have gorgeous missle weapons (too big? Sorry, I'm a fan of "big guns" and both the crossbows and hanguns actually look like they should be strength 4), rather unique armour (enough of a difference between two models to make them individuals, but still clearly a State trooper), questionable faces on the melee models (but my theme calls for moderate masking, so I suppose it bothers me little), and a number of great little bit options to spice up just about anything.

Push comes to shove, the new models have everything the Empire needs.
Afterall...

"Three things make the Empire great - faith, steel, and gunpowder!"

Axel
11-01-2007, 19:00
The new models have gorgeous missle weapons (too big? Sorry, I'm a fan of "big guns" and both the crossbows and hanguns actually look like they should be strength 4),

They could at least have modelled the pose so that they could have HOLD these monsters. No human is able to use these monstrosities in the way these soldiers do. I dislike the missile troops to a degree that I will convert all the 20 I bought into statetroopers. Its just some work to scrape off the bags, but else I am glad that the normal statetroopers come with sufficient spare arms to do the job. This way, I have 20 different bodies instead of just 10. Fine with me, too.

I am glad that you like them this way. It was probably hard to find comparable minis before.

Winterkampf
11-01-2007, 19:30
I have to agree to an extent with Athelassan's comments. I REALLY don't like the Missille Battery or the Engine Horse. I also think that it benefits the army in question to have a clear theme to it. It provides character. If there's something like orkyness, and chaosyness <?> then there should also be an intangible quality to the Empire models that would make you say: 'yes, that's an empire model'
That said, I must say that I actually like the new models. Not the best in GW's history, but not the worst at all. Plus, I love all the little bits and options that come with the boxed sets...

loveless
11-01-2007, 23:43
I am glad that you like them this way. It was probably hard to find comparable minis before.

True, there were pretty much no missile troops I liked before the advent of the Glade Guard, but as much as I like elves, I'm not overly fond of longbows. So I was really glad to see that the new Empire missile troops have, in my opinion cool and threatening weapons.

True, the poses are a touch awkward, but - hey, i saw the Nuln Gunner regiment in the Army Book and decided the dark clothing made the poses work out pretty well.

NornTyrant
12-01-2007, 00:53
I'm not going to argue that Warhammer is a historical battle game, because it clearly isn't. But the historical influences on it are, to my mind, what differentiates it from inferior fantasy, and losing them is, at least in my opinion, a mistake.

Ath

I also like history but IMHO, as you mentioned, Warhammer is not a historical battle game, so I will not treat it as one. If I want historical, then I can also find something as replacement, e.g. the Perry Twins historical model. For Warhammer, I will take it more easily and I will tolerate it's "Historical Inaccuracy" a bit more than a historical minature.

For the rockets, I don't know if it is dated too early. I am not very familiar with that part of history, but when I play Total War Medieval II, the Mongols used rockets like that (Forget the name of the troop). I used 10 or so of them to play in the custom battle, and it goes out like fireworks when the battle is fought at night. My wife said it is very beautiful.;)

These rockets looks more or less the same as in the Empire. It Empire can have technology up to 16 centry, I don't think these rockets is neccessary to be WWI or WWII. May be it is the countires in WWI or II copied the idea from a Mongol history book :D

However, no doubt for the horse it is too much. I can accept the steam tank, and even the helicopter of the dwarfs (as they are better craftsmen), but the horse is really too much.:cool:

Cheapies
12-01-2007, 06:41
The old Empire troops were the most hated models in Warhammer (most complaints on forums anyway) Too many frills, plain, no character etc..

Now they change them, take away some frills add some character and get just as many complaints, suddenly everyone loved the old models :rolleyes:

I for one like the new models, but I also liked the old models, I think a mix of new and old will look pretty good on the battlefield.

Axel
12-01-2007, 08:40
The rockets are not too advanced, and actually the model looks like something that could have been invented in the early 16th century. It looks unbalanced, but the actual weight of rockets is so small that it would work. The lafettes used by Congreve around 1800 were abominations, too.

The problem is the efficiency of these things. Rockets cannot carry explosives with accuracy. At least they could not until well into WWII, so there was no usage for them on the battlefield. But since chariots, stonethrowers and dove-bombs are part of the game, why should rockets not cause some damage.

monkey child
12-01-2007, 08:45
I must say i rather like the new sculpts, admittedly the Perrys older sculpts had a much more "rank and file" feel to them. But IMO the new ones are, as some one has already said characters in their own right and can more readily beleive these are actually people with personallities perhaps sitting round a camp fire the night before battle, working Nobby because he`s lost his shoes again:D

plasticfrog
12-01-2007, 11:50
The new sculpts look ok.

I am actually a fan of the older Empire models- pouffs and all!

I hope the two genres of soldiery mix and match well together. For some reason the new troopers look a lot more slender than their older counterparts. (I haven't held any of the new models in my hands to compare).

Inquis. Jaeger
14-01-2007, 17:41
I got a detachment box yesterday, and after having the models 'to hand' I have to say I'm converted. I was a hater of them from the pics, but in real life they're actually very nice. I like them. I'm going to mix them up with a load of militia bits and make a Sartosan Pirates force for my DoW! Some of the faces are rubbish though

Axel
14-01-2007, 18:11
I also have to jump in again and state that though I think their missile troops are next to useless for me (more due to the pose then to the weapon size) I am actually pondering to buy a third detachement box - I already used up the first 30 by creating a variety of soldiers for my army, and they do lend themself to conversion quite good, IF you have sufficient biz from the old boxes. I won`t probably make whole regiments using just these sculpts, but they mix well.

MadJackMcJack
14-01-2007, 18:22
My main gripe with the new Empire models is that, to me, they just don't look like proper soldiers. The skin-tight leggings and comically-oversized codpieces are just plain ridiculous, the melee guys don't have anywhere near enough armour for troops supposedly going up against the likes of beastmen and orcs, and since when were slippers practical for an army on the march? Don't get me wrong, the sculpting is good, just not the style of the sculpting. It pisses me off because I was really interested in getting an Empire army, but how can I when I can't stand the way the models look? No, unless I can find a cheapish method of making the troops look more soldiery (maybe use parts from other sprue sets or green stuff if it's not too complicated?), I'm just gonna stick to greenskins.

loveless
15-01-2007, 03:55
lol, MadJackMcJack, I'm sorry, but you seem to hate the Empire for being the Empire...

the tight leggings and odd shoes/boots are part of the Empire's character (they've always been as such from what I've seen)

the codpieces...are apparently GW's new policy for male models (look at the 40K Space Marine Scouts - oy)

NornTyrant
15-01-2007, 04:05
True enough, the codpieces looks quite larger :)

However, to my limited history knowledge, there was a time where people made their codpiece HUGE so that they look more like a real man and more attractive to women. (^o^)

Harry
15-01-2007, 06:44
Ha ha..The Black Russian codpiece I think!:evilgrin:
Not so many women on the battlefield. I imagine Jo fighter, if he did own an impresive codpiece, would have kept it for a night out rather than day wear. Surely the other soldiers would take the **** something rotton if you turned up with you best bejewelled, Black Russian codpiece to a fight....it could interfere with you parry!:D

Axel
15-01-2007, 16:31
The codpieces as shown in the models were indeed used and caused major discussions at their time. Around 1550 both trousers and codpieces were even much larger for a time, to the point of being unwieldy. So THAT part of the Empire models actually keeps its historical accuracy :)

MadJackMcJack
15-01-2007, 18:01
lol, MadJackMcJack, I'm sorry, but you seem to hate the Empire for being the Empire...



Not really. I love the idea of the mixture of gunpowder age and magic, and the way the Empire is set out as a country made up of several states who only really get along because the alternative is destruction at the hands of everyone else, and the way their military works, with the mixture of strong shooting, solid infantry blocks and armoured knights. It's just that the clothing is, frankly, pants. Yes, I know that there's a historical basis for it, but it was pants back then too.

As for the lack of armour, there's no sensible reason for it. In 15-16th Europe, the main reasons Swiss Pikemen and all of the copycats chucked their armour was because one, it allowed them to move faster to counter cavalry, and two, no amount of practical armour is gonna stop a musket ball. But in the fantasy world, only Empire and Dwarves make extensive use of gunpowder. Most of the Empire's usual opponents (Chaos, greenskins, undead) fight up close and personal, and against their like, moving faster only helps when legging it. So why have the melee troops got little better then a breastplate? I'm not saying the stats should change, just the appearence.

The boyz
15-01-2007, 19:20
The only thing that I, personally, am not really to keen on in the new Empire range is that mechanical horse. Everything else sculpt wise, looks ok to me.

SirRickles
17-01-2007, 02:52
Some of the heads are pretty goofy looking, but there are some decent ones in there too. They give a lot to choose from.

Though, I'm VERY happy that they got rid of the Landschniecht pillow sleaves. Those were the main reason why I never started empire.

jullevi
17-01-2007, 08:36
Some of the heads are pretty goofy looking, but there are some decent ones in there too. They give a lot to choose from.

True. I must admit that i wasn't very excited about the heads when the first rumour pics started to appear, but now that i got my hands on some of the plastics i was positively surprised. Sure, some of the heads are as bad (or even worse) as seen in the piccies, but there are few very good ones as well. I'm going to miss the beards, though.

The state troops are far from perfect, though. It's not the heads nor the lack of puffy sleeves that annoy me, but the lack of poses. I'm perfectly fine with combined legs and torso, but what is the point of having 10 different sculpts for state troops if they are all in exactly the same pose? That is something i don't understand. If it weren't for the massive codpieces and feathers, i wouldn't have bought any new state troops at all.

brettz123
17-01-2007, 14:56
My problem is when someone looks at six months work and takes the ****. Comes up with some smart **** remark or just says I think 'it stinks'. This simply is not fair. (You can not write off six months work with two words and be fair!) These guys are some of the best at what they do. They work with huge enthusiasm and try their very best to get it right sometimes under ludicrous design restrictions that you would not believe if I tried to describe them to you. Sometimes against all their instincts as artists and sculptors as to how they would do them given the creative freedom to do so.

For the record: I am a little disappointed with some aspects of these minis too. I will be doing one or two head swaps for the ones I don't like so much and a lot of damage to feathers with my craft knife before I get the spray can out!

I actually disagree with both sides of the argument to a certain extent. First off to just say you don't like any of the new miniatures shows that you probably are a little bit to much on the hater side of the argument but to say that we should cut some guy slack because he worked hard on something really doesn't make sense either. We pay for miniatures so when they are not up to snuff then we have the right to come here and vent our disappointment over that. When you redo a range as integral to the Warhammer background as the Empire then you have the responsibility to make sure you get it right (aka that you make the models better). Now some of the models I like and some I do not really like. Nothing wrong with that and for me it is mostly just about taste and not about the quality of the sculpt.
For instance the new soldiers I do not think kept the feel of the originals. And coupled with the crazy feather (where the hell do they get those anyway? Do you think every regiment keeps a flock of griffons hanging around?) for me this takes away from the continuity I expected between these models and the old models. I really would have liked to have been able to add some of these models to my existing army but I don't feel that visually I will be able to do that so I will not buy as many as I would have before. I think this is unfortunate because I really wanted to like the new empire models.
I will still pick up some but overall I will now go to Ebay and get more of the old ones which to me just feel more like empire troops. Anyway that is my two cents on the whole thing.

Paulus
17-01-2007, 15:04
@ Brettz123

Harry's not saying people don't have the right to voice there dislike of the mini's, he's disagreeing with the fact that some people have simply put "they suck" without explaining what they dislike.

I understand what you are saying, but imagine if you were the sculptor reading through these pages for some constructive critiscism as to what they could have done better, simply putting "they suck" help's no one.

Yade
17-01-2007, 17:45
I have read through this whole post and I have looked at the new modela dn in general I like them. However, I stand firm with many in stating that they made these models to look as moronic as possible. The faces are an atrocity and I will be using old heads with the new hats.

Someone at GW did not QC these sculpts very well. Something like, "man they look dumb" or "is that Wallace or Grommit?" wuld have put the sculptor on a new path.

I would like to submit my resume for the next head sculpts because these last ones are pretty bad.

I'll bet they could make a fortune by selling auxilliary sprues for the empire, where they had nothing but weapons, bawbles, like the powder monkey or the standards, and optional heads. I know I would buy a boxed set with those items.

The Black Templars got a box of auxilliary bits, an Empire one would be great.

CommisarMolotov
17-01-2007, 20:54
Geez - the new Empire General model has enough parts to make a mounted model and a model on foot:

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305831&orignav=305831&ParentID=258882&GameNav=9

However, the "foot" version seemingly uses the same wide-spread legs as the mounted version - making them either look bow-legged, or as though they had a load in their britches...

I've seen my buddy's little toddler stand just like that - when he needs his diaper changed!

Way to ruin what was otherwise a nice model, fellows...

luck*is*my*friend
17-01-2007, 22:27
but the new handgunners are sweet but would be nice if they get half standing like the front of high elf achers:) would get a more pro look;) maby ill convert some:D

Dr Death
18-01-2007, 15:29
I've just managed to obtain some of the models for myself and i have to say there are more usable heads than people tend to let on, particularly on the missile troop sprues. However the grimaces arent lessened even without paint. The big issue i have with the new plastics though is that the detail does seem terribly blunt and there are a lot of places where you get the dreaded areas of no detail what so ever something that the old models never suffered from. I've yet to start assembling though so things may balance out once i start putting my own stamp on them.

Dr Death

Paulus
18-01-2007, 15:35
The big issue i have with the new plastics though is that the detail does seem terribly blunt and there are a lot of places where you get the dreaded areas of no detail

Yes the lovely blank spots that seem unfortunately unavoidable on plastics.

Some of the Night Goblin Spearmen in the BFSP box set have that problem.

hiram
18-01-2007, 15:47
all and all they are nice models, i think, but some of the pose issues can be rectified by a hobby knife and a little elbow grease

Yade
18-01-2007, 16:19
all and all they are nice models, i think, but some of the pose issues can be rectified by a hobby knife and a little elbow grease

Yes I quite anticipate people giving those troops a lip job. They have Angelina Jolie's lips, you know where they enter the screen 2 seconds before the rest of her face. Accompanied with the cheeks on those guys I think og Mick Jagger's drugged out gaunt face.

I suppose if you puddy the cheeks to balance out the lips things would get better. I am expecting a lot of people doing some dental work on those guys as well. Maybe GW should release a dentures sprue for Empire troops.

Arhalien
18-01-2007, 16:24
Would leftoiver pistolier and knightly order heads (the bare one) work as head swaps?

Chicken Pig
18-01-2007, 20:39
I was at first dissapointed when I saw the heads from the sprues in White Dwarf, but upon actually seeing and making miniatures with the sprues the new heads are very characterful and not as bad as first thought. There is definately the odd head that I will not use, but when combined with the old Soldiers of the Empire/militia heads the new miniatures give at least 40 odd heads. Thus each unit can have a distinct head in it, surely a good feature.

I have already used the Outrider heads with the much maligned Empire Knights and they look great. The flexibility that all of the plastic kits offer when combined is brilliant. The only flaw for me is that there is quite a bit of plastic flash to remove on some of the pieces, especially the Handgunners bodies, which may see many younger gamers with some flaky looking minis. But overall as an Empire player I am very happy with the new kits, the Pistoliers especially are beautiful. A few more options on the general would be good as well, but we got a far better deal than the Greenskin players in my opinion.

AjaxUSA
19-01-2007, 00:10
I think that the new army looks great. but that is JUST ME. We cant all agree on everything can we? I guess GW is trying to do their best. THey figure that if people dont like them, they wont buy them and buy another army in this system.

THe thing I think is hysterical as already been mentioned is how huge their package is. I had a buddy of mine combat jump into Panama with the US Rangers back when the US grabbed Noriega....he told me that some guys would do this thing called a "combat jerk". Nuff said on that issue. Maybe the boys at GW know some people in the military and thought it funny to work that in? LOL. sick as it is, the sculpting of that area is funny as hell. I showed my wife who also had some choice thigns to say about it.

As for sculpting, I think that GW is using computer software nowa days to do this instead of free hand. Maybe this is one of the reasons for the frankenstein look.

Over all, I like the new look. Hope to see new knights or new flagellants, maybe a new Hellblaster or something more.....

PS: didnt mean to offend with above post, but it reminded me of that story being the size and the warring nature of this game.

NornTyrant
19-01-2007, 02:36
I have been involving in WHFB for some years, and I like to paint more than play. So I play more attention to the model than the gaming system. I would say overall speaking, each time GW has a new verson, the model they produce are better than the old one (I know some of you may disagree, as you might like the old one better). Most of the new one are more attractive and more "modern".

I am a Chaos player, e.g. the Slannesh Deamonettes are better the the pervios, Chaos Warrior is better, but the Marauders are worse. So some of them are better and some of them are worse. But overall speaking, it keeps me interested in this hobby and I think GW is successful in accomplishing that one ;)

NakedFisherman
19-01-2007, 02:53
I'm not a fan of the models at all. I would've liked to start an Empire army, but after seeing the models in person the moulds are of low quality and the sculpts are not very good.

Whatever new plastics technology GW is using, it's hurting their models. The plastic Empire models as well as the new Dark Angels look way too 'plasticky'. They lack the detail of other models, especially metal ones.

Jedi152
19-01-2007, 08:36
Whatever new plastics technology GW is using, it's hurting their models. The plastic Empire models as well as the new Dark Angels look way too 'plasticky'. They lack the detail of other models, especially metal ones.
That is true of the state troops, and certainly the Dark Angels, they are starting to look like old plastics again.

I do like the look of the state troops, but the amount of detail that has poorly defined edges that blend into other bits is high. Hopefully there won't be too many 'null' areas that are just flat and impossible to work out what they are, like the old one piece empire plastics.

Look at the tassles on the missile troop bodies for example.

Green-Knight
19-01-2007, 16:29
well, on a seperate note, since we are talking about empire sculpts in general, id like to point out that i think the new warrior priest sculpts are absolutly awsome.

I just picked up the WP w/ 2 handweapons, and he looks like he's about to come alive and say. "Im about to kick your ass....in the name of sigmar!"

I also really like the new general too despite the overly large runefang.

You can really make a distinction between nobles and lowly foot soldiers in these new sculpts. The elector count's head looks like the head of a noble, so i can understand why the state troops have a little inbread look about them, and even so, some of the state troop's heads look rather professional and not inbread. (that one head that has parted hair, and a scar over his eye) these heads are probabily used for command models anyways to represent the professional empire soldier champion.

overall, im happy w/ my empire, no complaints. :D

Jedi152
19-01-2007, 16:33
well, on a seperate note, since we are talking about empire sculpts in general, id like to point out that i think the new warrior priest sculpts are absolutly awsome.

I just picked up the WP w/ 2 handweapons, and he looks like he's about to come alive and say. "Im about to kick your ass....in the name of sigmar!"
I don't like that one. That generic GW pose looks too flat, too unrealistic and crap.

The one with the two handed hammer looks amazing though, apart from the fact his arms look longer than his body.

NakedFisherman
19-01-2007, 18:11
The one with the two handed hammer looks amazing though, apart from the fact his arms look longer than his body.

I'd hope his arms are longer than his body!

Jedi152
22-01-2007, 08:35
I meant his whole body, including his legs! :p

Seriously, he looks like a shaved orang-utan in armour.

dirach.
22-01-2007, 13:31
I was putting together the new plastics, and I must say I did like them. There is much more detail than the old models, this gives more character to each model. What I like was that there seemed to be two different sets, poor and rich. So I did make one swordsman unit with fluffy arms, feathers and the stronger armour, one haleberdier unit without feather, simple sleeves and simple armour.

I did the same with the crossbows and handguns. The poorer looking parts went to the crossbows, the feathers and ribons went to the handgunners.

Off course this only works if you are making two units. As there is not enough parts in one set to give all the swordsmen fluffy arms if you are only making one unit.

Lyinar
22-01-2007, 15:45
Or, you could use the plain-looking models as your rear ranks?

I've got almost all of my Empire Warband built (I just need to get the right Warrior Priest model, as Battlewagon Bits send me the one with Light Armour, a Shield, and a book... the worst one, in my opinion... Especially since I'm giving him the Armour of Meteoric Iron and there is no way in hell I can WYSIWYG that with a chainmail hauberk, a completely useless shield, and jeans.), and I've painted my whole unit of Spearmen and am working on my Swordsmen now, and I have to say that if you paint them to the 'Gamer Standard', they actually look BETTER than the 'Eavy Metal "exaggerate every single feature of the model with ten intricately-layered highlights" style.

And as I've converted my small unit of Huntsmen out of Bretonnian archer bodies and Empire heads, I have the peasant heads left over, and I have to say that the Empire soldiers don't even come CLOSE to looking that hideously inbred. As I described the Bretonnians to my best friend: Picture extremely high-quality sculpts of the absolute most hideous people you can think of.

loveless
22-01-2007, 18:02
Picture extremely high-quality sculpts of the absolute most hideous people you can think of.

Yes! Oh, that was great :D

Z-chan
23-01-2007, 03:31
What can I say, I like these new models. Never resounded well with handsome-looking guys on the battlefield. The older sculpts kinda turned me off from doing Empire because of their stiffness and hard-to-paint sleeves.