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Paulus
14-12-2006, 18:52
Hi there just setting up a new thread for those interested.

I'm looking forward to starting a High Elf collection on the release of the new book.

Just wondering what people would/wouldn't like to see make an appearence?

Arhalien
14-12-2006, 18:58
hmm, is this for models, rules, fluff or everything?
Persona;lly I'd like better Elven infantry, a definite playstyle; able to strike quickyl and efficiently but dying if getting bogged down maybe?
Modelwise, just new plastics and swordmasters. oh, and new chariot and reavers(but I don;t really use them much), maybe plastic swordmasters (that would be nice).

Porbably very little of this will happen thoiugh

Paulus
14-12-2006, 19:02
Everything!

I think the High Elves generally just need rules tweaking & a few mini's replacing (plastic archers of the top of my head).

Also I reckon we could see a couple of suprise additions (regiment & special character).

IcedCrow
14-12-2006, 19:15
I think nothing short of the 5th edition version would be acceptable to many people.

We must wait and see.

Mephistofeles
14-12-2006, 19:23
I think that better infantry would be good. I don't just mean with cooler stats, but with more interesting choices, more tactical thinking required (like DE seems to be right now) and better armour saves!

I am of the oppinion that Ithilmar chain mails should give a 5+ save...like heavy armour. That would give Spearmen 4+ and make 'em still fluff-wise correct...I'd like it.

Probably won't happen though...

Harry
14-12-2006, 19:30
I would love archers to be able to fire 'through'/in between or over ranked troops. So you could have blocks of spearmen with arrows wizzing past their ears from lines of archers behind. (Just like in the movies):D

Solonor
14-12-2006, 20:24
I would love archers to be able to fire 'through'/in between or over ranked troops. So you could have blocks of spearmen with arrows wizzing past their ears from lines of archers behind. (Just like in the movies):D

that would be a lovely change, in my understanding there is a few ideas that could make archers more appealing:

- ignoring long range penalties (due to higly sincronized arrow cloud)
- ignoring the -1 modifier for stand and shoot (attributed to high elven discipline and unerving attitude)
- Harry`s suggestion of firing through friendly units
- finally the abilty to declare stand and shoot even if another elven unit is charged (of course if they are close to that unit like 2")

of course im not saying they should have all of this rules together hehe...

regarding spearmen i think they should be fragile, just needing a help vs missile fire like giving them long shield or a turtle formation so they have a bonus vs missile fire, also the idea of long spears striking first would be great of course

Paulus
14-12-2006, 20:55
I agree with what everyone seems to be saying which is basically that standard HE rank & file is too expensive/not good enough to represent their points value.

Archers - Perhaps the should follow something along the lines of the WE
improvements, only different, the suggestions I've seen so far are great but think they couldn't have them all as it may make them overpowered, 1 or 2 are a must though.

Spearmen - Not sure, have seen allowing 3 ranks to attack suggested but think that implies that the spears are longer rather than the Elves better at using them. Perhaps allow HE spearmen a +1 to hit when charged or something on those lines?

Other things I would like to see, as much as I've liked the idea of Drake Riders, I think they are far too powerful to be represented well in the game & don't gp with the present fluff.

I hope that the rumoured plastic Dragon kit turns out to be true & ties in with the release of HE!:D

Damokles
14-12-2006, 21:08
good to have this thread!

I would really like to see the look that was established in the artwork with the last edition armybook to be transfered to the new minis. especially archers and silver helms. The minis should look sleeker and more elegant, somehow more "elfish" if you know what I mean. That's just my wish. I don't really care about the rules, because I use minis I like, not minis whose rules I like, although a boost for archers would be nice game balance-wise

Arhalien
14-12-2006, 21:13
good to have this thread!

I would really like to see the look that was established in the artwork with the last edition armybook to be transfered to the new minis. especially archers and silver helms. The minis should look sleeker and more elegant, somehow more "elfish" if you know what I mean. That's just my wish. I don't really care about the rules, because I use minis I like, not minis whose rules I like, although a boost for archers would be nice game balance-wise

Agree fully. The current elves look like little more than h8uamsn in funny armour. There was no grace, no elegance. But I don;t want them looking like pansies. Hard, but elegant I think is how they should be. Kind of like the new eldar models.

Damokles
14-12-2006, 21:39
I agree, they should look elegant, but also like they can chop some heads off!

and if they redid swordmasters, I'd like them to have the pose like the new eldar striking scorpion exarch, as seen in the upper left corner here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=258774
or the eldar warlock, seen on the far right in this pic:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=250061

Paulus
14-12-2006, 21:47
Hard, but elegant

Kinda like this pic??

Glorfindel
14-12-2006, 21:59
Stuff I'd love to see:

Stat changes for:

Phoenix guard (so I finally find use in my army for these uber cool mini's)
Archers
Seaguard
Tiranoc chariot

Model wise:

new white lions, swordmasters, a new tiranoc chariot model, a new dragon (which will happen I heard) New archer models and maybe the spearmen/seaguard aswel.

Maybe also a new griffon with elven lord model like the empire have one.

On a sidenote:

The current archers look like girls with cute peacock plumes ready for a pyjama party. I liked them more with armour and helmet and as decoration in general please take more horsetails like the one on the latest hero on foot with sword and shield.
As for recurrent motives on models I like the recent style of phoenix motives but spear/arrowpoints, dragons or swords (wether held in a hand or not) are also nice recurrent motives. Hearts should be kept to a minimum Imo, It's too sweet for battle ornament.

Eldem
14-12-2006, 23:26
personally swordmaster matching their legendary fluff, I am fine iwth paying 20pts for em if they are worth it. Same wit dragon princes. We are elite so let us be elite.

10th clancannach rangers
14-12-2006, 23:35
I dont think swordmasters should be toned up at all, they are as popular and as good enough as it is.

The other elite infantry should be made much better instead so that they actually become viable choices.

There is far too much concentration on swordmasters in the high elf army.

verydarkshadow
14-12-2006, 23:38
Kinda like this pic??http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16020&d=1166132805


YES:D ! Just like that pic!

I'd rather have em all go to war bear-headed than in their current cone-headed configuation.

Give us spear elves with short helms!

EvC
14-12-2006, 23:45
Modelwise, I think the following will happen:
-Boxes of 5 plastic Cavalry will be released, for 12 quid (Perhaps 15 by the time they're released), which can be made into either of three three types of High Elf Cavalry
-Spearmen plastic will stay, but perhaps smaller boxes of 4 snap-fit High Elves will be released
-Archers will be redone, to have armour or not, and also to act as Shadow Warriors. Perhaps the army list will simply say you can upgradde an archer unit to shadow warriors for +x point.
-Tiranoc Chariot gets redone. With the proposed Lion Chariot I'm not sure how it'll be done, but there is precedent for two similar boxed Chariots being released for the same army (e.g. Settra's and the regular), so I'll guess that we'll have two quite different Chariot Models. The regular one will have a new horse of course of course
-Plastic Swordmasters, 12 including command for 18 quid. Not too bad I guess
-White Lions and Phoenix Guard remain
-Metal Hero models remain
-Plastic Hero boxed set like Orcs and Empire, but you can only make a mounted mage by conversion, oddly
-Tyrion model remains, new Teclis however; same Eltharion, new and brilliant Dragon model that could be Imrik, plus one new (Old?) Special Character. My money's on the Everqueen, but reborn
-New Griffon model, hurray!

Darkhorse
14-12-2006, 23:58
The weakness of the HE list is at its most stark when you are forced into a static position, (SIEGE) standing on castle walls your achers are the primary unit... AAARRGGH! Spearmen can't rank and your cavalry have a one way ticket out the gate. Vs. massed ranks of, well just about anything, including Ogres! your archers provide a minor distraction, the cavalry is purely sacrificial in a hopeless attempt to stop the battering ram/siege tower before you are unceremoniously cleared from the walls by the swarms.
We seriously need something doing to the archers, and perhaps some form of core heavy infantry.
As for spearmen, in the open I like 'em. There are a couple of special rules that might make them that much more appealing (Macedonian Phalanx/Saxon Sheildwall) perhaps stubborn.

Olith
15-12-2006, 00:11
A well defined theme in both the background and army list that really shows how the High Elves live and fight in the Warhammer world. If people read the whole book they shouldn't still be confused as to what High Elves are and are not proficient at and suited towards doing. How they play, the rules, or new units don't bother me in the slightest. I didn't choose High Elves because of the rules or how I expected them to play, I imagine only a small proportion of players who field them did.

The model range to not make the old models look out of place.

And I@C never to be spoken of again.

Move Fast Hit Low
15-12-2006, 00:59
plastic swordsmen, new horses on the chariots, plastic dragon princes and make lion guard a special choice :)

stats wise they should lower the price of the archers if they are going to have the BS as a spearmen or they could increase their BS with same pt cost

I kind of hope TvC is wrong though smaller boxes of snap fit would be a travesty and that will mean that i will have to start buying lots and lots of the current ones, also hope he is wrong about shadow warriors

Eldem
15-12-2006, 03:05
Also the ability to theme our army to a providence and still be competetive.

Also about the swordasters I would like all the elite infrantry to be viable and interesting I just like the sword master fluff the most.

Arhalien
15-12-2006, 14:06
I don;t think box ofor all cavalry is likely. Remember, reavers don;t have barded steeds, but dragon prines and silver helms do.

EvC
15-12-2006, 14:21
plastic swordsmen, new horses on the chariots, plastic dragon princes and make lion guard a special choice :)

stats wise they should lower the price of the archers if they are going to have the BS as a spearmen or they could increase their BS with same pt cost

I kind of hope TvC is wrong though smaller boxes of snap fit would be a travesty and that will mean that i will have to start buying lots and lots of the current ones, also hope he is wrong about shadow warriors

Careful there, I'm not saying only snap-fits, I'm saying in addition to the current box. Like with some other units available at the moment; being able to boost your spearmen by just 4 models without buying a whole new regiment box would be quite handy, especially with the revised ranking rules for 7th edition.

I should be clear though, my post is less a wish-list and more a "probable list". I do expect Shadow Warriors to go the way of the Dwarf Rangers... with new plastics, it could be a good thing.

Also my basis for the box of 5 all-purpose Cavalry is down to rumours posted by a usually accurate source- I find it hard to understand too, but I underestimate neither the source nor the model design capability. I could envision an unbarded steed that can can have a couple of additional pieces attached to it to make it count as barding, plus two different types of horse heads per box, easily...

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
15-12-2006, 20:55
Just give me back my 5th Edition High Elves! With 'Codex Creep' going on, every other army is now equally beardy and over-powered! Why can't we be?

Ender Shadowkin
15-12-2006, 22:49
I would love archers to be able to fire 'through'/in between or over ranked troops. So you could have blocks of spearmen with arrows wizzing past their ears from lines of archers behind. (Just like in the movies):D

I don't really like shooting through things, I can see a lot of weird situations and I just dont see HE threading arrows through 4 or more ranks of a unit. Perhaps a better idea would be to allow any Archer unit to declare a stand and shoot against units that charge freindly unit, provided they have LOS and are within range at the begiining of the charge, sort of like detachaments but they don't need to be assigned to a specific unit . . .

Ender Shadowkin
15-12-2006, 22:51
I don;t think box ofor all cavalry is likely. Remember, reavers don;t have barded steeds, but dragon prines and silver helms do.

I don't know I think people have seen them. Remember elven steeds with barding right now are essentionall a little skirt on the front of the horse. Perhaps there are just a head swap and some extra bits to glue on for the barding.

Arhalien
16-12-2006, 09:18
Maybe, but It still doesn't seem... oh never mind. I'll probably only get 1 box to bulk out my current cavalry units. I'll be in the middle of an Eldar army at release time sonI'll have to resist major updates.

samw
16-12-2006, 11:58
Just give me back my 5th Edition High Elves! With 'Codex Creep' going on, every other army is now equally beardy and over-powered! Why can't we be?

Codex creep is a myth. Just look at all the O&G and Empire players lamenting the alleged demise of their books. The truth is somewhere in the middle. As for army on army, Ogres came after Brets, and Skaven are one of the oldest books.

Fhoen
16-12-2006, 12:52
i would like more magic reliability, as we are the "best" wizards (exept the slann's) but a lvl 4 empire wizard is good as well ... u don't see much difference imho but we are superior as we tought those humans the arts of magic ... so i really would like to so some EAVY magico :p

EvC
16-12-2006, 16:45
Codex creep is a myth. Just look at all the O&G and Empire players lamenting the alleged demise of their books. The truth is somewhere in the middle. As for army on army, Ogres came after Brets, and Skaven are one of the oldest books.

That's your opinion, and most would disagree. The only people "lamenting the alleged demise" are those whose strategies rely on one or two things, e.g. Helblasters (Which are now cheaper) and the Griffon Standard which is now only available to a Battle Standard. High Elves, being one of the weaker army lists, will almost certainly creep in terms if power- but this is a good, deserved creep, for a change.

Petey
16-12-2006, 18:50
I think the High Elf theme is akin to Late Greek/Early Roman armies. Roman Republic armies mostly, hence intrigue at court, important spear blocks and ever present bolt throwers. In that vein, i hope they do more of the same.
Borrow heavily from greek and roman myth and army structure, and make the HE armies fight like them even more.

I'ld like to see regions play a part in your high elf characters, like the kinbands do for Wood elves. I ld like to see high magic restricted to heroes from saphery. I ld like to see Archers who arch fire (it could easily be done as 'if any model in the unit can see an enemy unit, the entire unit may ignore line of sight restrictions due to other units') I'd like to see the magic items stay cheap, but have more of them be restricted by region. On the more fantasy side of things, I'd like to see 0-1 Drake rider added to rares ( with 0-1 restriction lifted by a Caledor general), Giant Eagles as special (two for one), i want swordsmasters and white lions to both be no longer 0-1 and to make them become a core unit for each appropriate hero you have of the same kind (much like the flagelants) I'd like the intrigue at court rules to change, as most people i play with forget to use them, and be more a part of the metagame.

Paulus
16-12-2006, 19:01
I think the High Elf theme is akin to Late Greek/Early Roman armies. Roman Republic armies mostly, hence intrigue at court, important spear blocks and ever present bolt throwers. In that vein, i hope they do more of the same.
Borrow heavily from greek and roman myth and army structure, and make the HE armies fight like them even more.

I'ld like to see regions play a part in your high elf characters, like the kinbands do for Wood elves. I ld like to see high magic restricted to heroes from saphery. I ld like to see Archers who arch fire (it could easily be done as 'if any model in the unit can see an enemy unit, the entire unit may ignore line of sight restrictions due to other units') I'd like to see the magic items stay cheap, but have more of them be restricted by region. On the more fantasy side of things, I'd like to see 0-1 Drake rider added to rares ( with 0-1 restriction lifted by a Caledor general), Giant Eagles as special (two for one), i want swordsmasters and white lions to both be no longer 0-1 and to make them become a core unit for each appropriate hero you have of the same kind (much like the flagelants) I'd like the intrigue at court rules to change, as most people i play with forget to use them, and be more a part of the metagame.

I think fluff wise White Lion units fit being 0-1, but you never know.

As I said earlier in the thread, I to would love Drake Riders but think that they just wouldn't work as they'd either be too powerful & lead to really small armies or be really weakened down Dragons & ruin the imagery of how powerful a creature a Dragon is.

Makaber
16-12-2006, 19:26
I just hope they still retain some sort of weakness, something like Intrigue At Court or whatever. I can see why High Elf players don't like it, but I really think they'll be too "perfect" for their own good without some disadvantageous flavour rule.

Xyon
16-12-2006, 19:26
For the improvement of High Elf infantry
-first rank counts for rank bonus
-infantry can get either max of 4 rank bonus, or they should have double their normal rank bonus
-should count as double their unit strength for purposes of being outnumbered but not for outnumbering
-archers, shadow warriors, and RBT's being able to "stand and shoot" for other friendly units being charged would be really nice

This allows elfs in their limited numbers count for more without having to decrease their points, we should be outnumbered most of the time, and we are anyways. We dont need to be more survivable, but our few numbers should count for more. We need to break the enemy on the charge, which is why cavalry are so nice, but our infantry should also be geared for breaking on the charge, so without improving our killyness we can improve our static CR.

Makaber
16-12-2006, 19:34
... or they should have double their normal rank bonus

Free Griffin Banners for EVERYONE!

Assuming the Griffin Banner is still around, and that I remember the rules correctly. Still, it would be silly overpowered.

Xyon
16-12-2006, 19:41
then bump up the spearmen price a little, it will be worth it

edit: or just have it as a rule for seaguard white lions phoenix guard and swordmasters

Edit edit: its just that my point is we dont need to be cheaper to have more bodies on the field, we dont need our current bodies to be more survivable, we just need our current ones to be more effective and still fragile, if that means we can only afford 15 man units of spearmen or other infantry, but they get +6 rank bonus and cost... 15 points each, that'd be fair.

10th clancannach rangers
16-12-2006, 21:20
Giving high elves double rank bonus would be far too good

That way they would kill more and get more static resolution than most horde armies

Xyon
16-12-2006, 21:26
it would not be too good if they paid the points for it, and as they are right now, our spearmen are only worth 7 points

edit: besides, this is the WISH LIST thread, remember that

Finnigan2004
17-12-2006, 01:16
I think that I would like to see most of the 0-1 restrictions lifted to end cookie cutter list syndrome. I would also like to see the the point value of various units balanced so that different units in the list don't become "must haves" or "useless" (this last point would improve most army books in general I think). Finally, I would like to see high elf (and probably dark elves eventually as well) warriors and characters in general become elites, as they are supposed to be. They should be powerful, but this should be balanced with increased point costs where applicable.

Dargon
17-12-2006, 01:31
Here's my wish list...

1. A difinitive and cohesive theme and playing style thoughout the entire army. High Elves are so loosly defined that they are pretty much everything to everybody. Additionally, they don't feel like a unified force - rather a random collection of odd units, each with completely different rules.
* I'd love to see GW clearly define the High Elves intended playing style, strengths and weaknesses... and introduce army-wide special rules to fit. Most other races have a few rules that are common to most of the units in the army, and more importantly define how the army plays (detachments, relentless, cold blooded, undead, forest spirit, animosity, etc). The High Elves could really use a similar rule or two to unify them as a cohesive force (Stoic is just too situational).

2. More options for theming - both for the characters and the army. GW did a fantastic job with the Wood Elves in this area, with lots of theming options both within the unit options, and with the additions of the Kindred upgrades for the characters. High Elves have some of the richest backround in Warhammer where each of the 10 Provinces are concerned - it would be fantastic if High Elves were given enough similar options to represent the personal armies from each of these regions (removing all the 0-1 restrictions would be a good start). High Elves could also do with the variety of additional character options that almost every other army enjoys (Engineers, Priests, Assassins, alternative races, etc).

3. More individual unit variety. This may sound counterproductive to No.1, but the High Elves suffer from too many of their units performing the same roles within the army, which tends to lead to only the most effective choice being taken. The biggest sufferers are the elite infantry (Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard & White Lions). I'd love to see High Elf units have much more distinct, defined and independant tactical roles from each other within the army, so that choosing between them is a tactical choice, rather than a question of comparitive potency.

If GW can manage to satisfy the above three conditions, I will be a very happy High Elf player.:D
There are plenty of more specific changes I'd love to see, but the above 3 general changes I see as the most important. The specifics of how GW accomplishes them are a question of personal taste, and I've learned over the years that High Elf players opinions (in particular) vary quite dramatically when it comes to specifics.

As for models, I'd love to see a complete redo of their plastics line...
* The rumoured Cavalry set that can cover all 3 Cavalry options (how hard is it really to create interchangable barding?)
* Archer set with parts to double as Shadow Warriors.
* Spearmen set with parts to double as Seaguard and/or Swordmasters.
... or some variation of the above, if a new core unit were introduced.

Just a thought...

Rowenstin
17-12-2006, 10:31
A special ability system that reflected the spearmen training and elven confidence would be great. Something along the following lines (I do not claim that those are balanced or anything, and I took a couple of ideas from this thread, but is just to get the idea):

Spearelf trainings: You can buy up to one Training for a spearelven unit paying the appropiate point cost.

Spear wall: The warriors in the unit are specially trained into keeping an impenetrable wall of spear points with the regiment’s long weapons. The elven calm and confidence in battle improves this effect, maintaining the wall integrity so that attackers must slow down their change or else impale themselves.

For +X points per miniature, attackers charging the unit’s front rank don’t get any benefit from charging. (Ok, this one is quite potent, but everyone keeps saying knights are so good, and that’s what spears were used, so…)

Shield wall: The warriors in the unit are specially adept at using their long shields, deflecting the blows directed at them and their companions, forming a shield roof against volleys of arrows, and closing any gap in the front rank that could happen as son it’s formed before any enemy can exploit it.

For +X points per miniature, the unit can reroll failed armor saving throws against attacks (either in melee or shooting) coming fron the unit’s front. Characters (except the unit champion) in the unit don’t benefit from this ability; the champion also doesn’t benefit if he’s fighting in a duel.

Fast rotation: The unit’s training, discipline and calm allow them to move in perfect order and concert even in the middle of furious close combat. This ability allow them to quickly refresh the front unit with fresh warriors, allowing the unit more “pushing” than they would normally have.

For +X point per miniature, if the unit has at least 2 full ranks, the first rank counts for combat resolution, and the maximum bonus for combat resolution from ranks is +4, not +3.

Archer trainings: You can buy up to one Training for a unit of archers paying the appropiate point cost.

Arrow rain: The unit can through extensive training and elven grace pull an arrow from the quiver, aim and shoot in concert with incredible speed. The constant threat can make a unit stop to seek refuge under their shields, or spread to avoid the arrows.

For +X point per miniature, any unit shot by the regiment must make a Leadership test or be unable to move the next round. At least a hit (not necessarily a wound) must be scored.

Units immune to panic, that already have tested this round for this special ability or have made a panic test this round don’t need to roll again.

Gap shooting: The unit has trained in concert with their spear carrying brethren so they can shoot through their ranks without risk of hitting them.

For +X points per miniature a unit of archers situated up to 2” behind a spearelf unit, parallel to it and facing the same direction can shoots enemies directly in the front of the spearelves unit. Determine line of sight as if the spearelves unit were shooting, but range from the archer unit. The unit can also shoot when the spearelves unit is charged, as if the archer unit were standing and shooting, if the spearelf unit in front of it chooses to Stand.

Melee shooting The unit’s training in concert with their spear carrying brethren and elven uncanny reflexes allow them to shoot their enemies even in the chaos of close combat.

For +X points per miniature, if a unit of archers doesn’t shoot in the shooting phase it can do it either in it’s own close combat phase or the next enemy’s close combat phase, and must do it against an enemy locked in hand to hand combat with a spearelves unit. The unit shoots before the combat is resolved.

The enemy don’t make panic tests from the archer’s shooting; instead, the wounds count for that combat’s resolution as if dealt by the spearelves.

Petey
17-12-2006, 17:48
Paulus, they've had dragon rider troops before, in the first high elf list (years and years ago) It's a simple matter to call them immature drakes, make them like a chariot or pegasus Knights (single model, one set of wounds) Hell, I know it would have to be weaker than the Hydra, but so what, it's an immature dragon. An immature lion isn't as tough as an adult horse (other examples abound)
ON another note, why do so many seem to want to Overcomplicate HE?
WHFB is going towards a more streamline easy to play and remember aproach.
The ideas to make hundreds of extra rules for everything seems to be the wrong way, and i don't think you ll get it

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
17-12-2006, 18:53
But streamlining means that crummy statlines suck. T3 is awful if you don't have special rules to back you up. WS 4 and I 5 and LD 8 are nice and all, but 90 percent of combat units in the game can wipe the floor with high elves. For similar prices, Chaos warriors get heavy armor and halberds, making them WS 5 S5 T4 5+ save as compared to sword masters with WS 6 S5 T3 6+ sv. Sure, the Swordmasters have higher I, but more than likely, those chaos boys will win in a straight fight (and definitely win if you take away the 'sword masters' rule). Elves need special rules, and lots of them, to be able to win in WHFB. Otherwise they're just fast, skilled, pretty corpses.

EvC
18-12-2006, 14:08
Nice ideas from Rowestin there! Okay, a more on-topic post for me this time, my wishlist for the High Elves...

1) Vaul's Anvil special rule; High Elf armour is the best in the world, even moreso than Dwarfs. As such, all High Elves receive +1 to their armour save. In addition, those Elves that are unarmoured have such agility and an enhanced sense of self-preservation so any unarmoured model receive a Ward Save of 6+ (NB due to dodgy wording this extends to unarmoured mounts too, such as Eagles and Griffons). In addition, centuries of experience have given commanding High Elves an even more refined ability; all Heroes (Armoured or not) receive a Ward Save of 6+ and all Lord level characters receive a Ward Save of 5+.

2) Nation of Heroes special rule; there are so many great and experienced warriors in the High Elf army, moreso than in any other army. All units may take any available command models for free. However, to represent the pride that High Elves hold in their houses, all banners are worth one and a half times their usual value if captured by the enemy (So the player will think twice about adding a standard bearer to small cavalry or archery units).

3) Spearman rules redux; as well as fighting in three rank, High Elf Spearmen may use Spear and Shield in combat like Hand Weapons and Shields, for +2 to armour save. (With this and rules (1) that means Spearmen in combat receive an armour save of 3+; they may still only be T3, but they'll certainly last a bit longer!). They also receive this bonus even when fighting to the flanks and rear.

4) Masters of Archery: As long as any one model in a High Elf unit's rank can see its target, all in that rank can shoot at it (As long as it's in the 45 degree angle area). Especially good if on a hill, too as this means that every model in a unit in 5 x 4 formation canon a hill can fire! In addition, volley fire may be used if the target is at long range; this allows the entire unit to fire and volley shots always hit on a 5+. However, the unit's highest ranking model with a ranged attack may not fire during a Volley as he is directing his troops.

5) Archers may be upgraded to Shadow Warriors, for Skirmishing and Scouting ability, but losing the Volley special rule. SW can take additional Hand Weapons. No longer a special, but for every SW unit there must be at least one regular citizen levy unit (i.e. Archers or Spearmen).

6) New Hero choice: Warden of the Anulli. Only Hero who may deploy with Shadow Warriors. Stats as a Commander, but with only 2 attacks and +1 to BS. However, he may shoot twice per Sooting Phase, and has the Killing Blow special rule (Even for firing his Longbow). Models in base-to-base contact with US3 or more lose half their attacks, rounding down. This Hero is only allowed 25 points of magic items, but may upgrade his Ward Save to 5+ for 10 points or 4+ for 30 points. You could really imagine this Hero taking on a massive Hydra and surviving, as Selafyn supposedly did (He would have died in the first round if actually tested). Or even a Dwarf Character on Shieldbearers for that matter, with its US3!!

7) Although the Great Eagle is the standard Hero-level mount, it may be upgraded to a Pegasus for +10 points, which is a slightly stronger mount.

8) High Elf Mages may upgrade their Steeds to a Unicorn for +30 points, giving them D3 S5 Impact hits (LOL) and MR2. Not part of their magic items allowance however, and as a one wound steed the Unicorn can't be killed!

9) Dragon Princes; for one turn of the game, they may unleash their inner power, and for that one turn (Either a player's OR the opponents' but not both!) they cause terror.

10) Miscasts; Although High Elf Magic-users are just as much at risk of miscast as any other Wizard, they are more learned and better understand the risks they take. As such, when a High Elf Mage miscasts, after rolling on the Miscast Table any one dice may then be re-rolled if the player wishes. The second result stands.

That'll do for now. Pretty much every rule I've wishlisted here flies in the face of the regular rules or sounds overpowered- which would make them fit in perfectly with the other armies' updated rulebooks! :D

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 14:22
Last time i checked, 90% of the empire army list is T3. I don't see 90% of their list outfighting high elves and mopping the floor with them.

Most of a bretonnian army is T3. A good majority of the skaven army is T3, as are many undead units.

I don't see T3 as the giant problem here.

EvC
18-12-2006, 14:33
Well you're not looking hard enough. The only armies I have truly mopped the floor with using my Vampire Counts army have been High Elf and Dark Elf, mere Skeletons smashing through units of Spearmen, Archers, White Lions and Executioners as if they're nothing. Autobreaking these troops is fair enough, but autobreaking them as a result of doing more kills? Rubbish.

Arhalien
18-12-2006, 14:42
Last time i checked, 90% of the empire army list is T3. I don't see 90% of their list outfighting high elves and mopping the floor with them.

Most of a bretonnian army is T3. A good majority of the skaven army is T3, as are many undead units.

I don't see T3 as the giant problem here.

But these armies all ahve numbesrs to back them up. High Elves are fragile, outnumbered and have very little killy ability in combat except for elite troops, and these tend to die just as easily as spearelves.

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 15:23
You guys are taking what I said out of context. I said T3 is not the problem because many other armies do well with predominantly T3 models.

Bretonnian armies tend to have less than 50 models in them so it's not numbers either.

EvC
18-12-2006, 15:35
T3 without decent Armour Saves or additional special rules IS the problem, which is exactly what has been stated countless times (I can't see how you missed it, really). Bretonnian armies, for example, may only have small numbers but their troops have a 2+ armour save, a ward save, and huge killing power. Dragon Princes are about as good as Bretonnian Knights, but we're generally talking about the foot soldiers of Ulthuan, not the elite cavalry. And the High Elf regulars are about as good as the peasants of Bretonnia; sure they'll hit them on a 3 and strike first- but they're not worth 2-3 times their cost.

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 15:50
You just enforced what I said.

T3 by itself is not the problem.

Petey
18-12-2006, 16:57
They have a special rule, fight in 3 ranks. It works just fine, i beat many people with it. They may need to get a little cheaper, but the units are very very strong, they don't need a ton of extra rules.
All Archers need to get cheaper, and I can see HE archers getting a rule here, to reflect their cost, but lets not go nuts, they are the second best archers in the game, stat for stat if not cost to cost.
I personally find the giant list of crutch rules offensive, the stat line is good, and the units are solid, maybe jsut a tad overpriced. Dropping the per fig cost 1-2 points means an extra 100-150 pts for most armies, that's another unit, that ll be all it takes.
New options will be good, but lets not make them all demigods, it's not appropriate for any WHFB army. And please, when comparing units, it's not fair (and really never has been) to compare anyone with chaos warriors, they really are stat'ed and designed like a special unit, even though they're core.
Chaos is like GW s baby, they love them best, we all have had to live with that.

So lets see new unit types and minor repairs on the old (in cost and cleaning rules up) and not a giant edict of new rules.

Solonor
18-12-2006, 17:05
yes T3 is not the problem of course hehe, its having T3 with lower armor save and expensive models, thats the real problem.

i dont mind that high elves have that weakness, they just need some medium adjustments in their hitting power, thats all, and a little more work in the strategic and discipline department.

i agree that high elves should be more resistant to missile fire, but i dont think they need more protection in hth, they should have more hitting power, perhaps only the heavy infantry should get a slight increase in protection vs hth.

regarding elven armor, it shouldnt be better than dwarven armor, only more light in weight, which is already represented by ithilmar barding.

some more ideas

-give swordmasters minor enchanted ithilmar plate, giving them 4+ armor save.

-i would take ithilmar barding from dragon princes and give that to silver helms, increasing their cost, and give dragon barding to the dragon princes, making their horses strike with str 4 on charge.

-archers ignoring the penalty from stand and shoot and able to declare st & shoot reactions to help nearby units being charged, shoot w/ 2 ranks.

-upgrade archers to shadow warriors (actual rules, perhaps giving them bucklers, no effect on missile fire but giving +1 armor save to the ShW in HtH)

-give seaguard pilums instead of bows (sort like javelins always thrown when charge or charging, st 3 that makes enemies shields to be useless in 1 round of fighting).

-magic is good, i only would make high elven mages more resistant vs miscast since their magic is more subtle.

-new honours, take away loremaster and put a new fighter mage hero, some mage capabilty, some fight capabilty.

-new warmachine, a greek fire thrower, perhaps

-option to white lions without command group to skirmish

-i would love that the new minis would have a more greek/helenian feel, and they could put more female models, in the citizen levies units.

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 17:07
I don't have much faith in GW to be honest. Their elf lists are either horribly overpowered or horribly underpowered. They have never gotten a good balanced list to come out. Mainly because their strengths are so subtle in the rule mechanics (WS, I, etc)

Giving them a slew of special rules isn't good either I don't think.

I think cheaper points would start to help.

Solonor
18-12-2006, 17:08
They have a special rule, fight in 3 ranks. It works just fine, i beat many people with it. They may need to get a little cheaper, but the units are very very strong, they don't need a ton of extra rules.
All Archers need to get cheaper, and I can see HE archers getting a rule here, to reflect their cost, but lets not go nuts, they are the second best archers in the game, stat for stat if not cost to cost.
I personally find the giant list of crutch rules offensive, the stat line is good, and the units are solid, maybe jsut a tad overpriced. Dropping the per fig cost 1-2 points means an extra 100-150 pts for most armies, that's another unit, that ll be all it takes.
New options will be good, but lets not make them all demigods, it's not appropriate for any WHFB army. And please, when comparing units, it's not fair (and really never has been) to compare anyone with chaos warriors, they really are stat'ed and designed like a special unit, even though they're core.
Chaos is like GW s baby, they love them best, we all have had to live with that.

So lets see new unit types and minor repairs on the old (in cost and cleaning rules up) and not a giant edict of new rules.

although i have just posted an extensive wish list i agree with you hehe :)

EvC
18-12-2006, 18:10
Nice suggestions there Solonr, let's hope that at least one two of the multitude of ideas from this thread make it into the book! Perhaps we don't need a dozen new rules like we want, but combined with a points drop for moat units it'd make the army more competitive.

Solonor
18-12-2006, 18:29
Nice suggestions there Solonr, let's hope that at least one two of the multitude of ideas from this thread make it into the book! Perhaps we don't need a dozen new rules like we want, but combined with a points drop for moat units it'd make the army more competitive.

yes, since we all like the game so much, we should contribute a little too hehe, actually this thread should be like a brainstorm of ideas, all giving opinions and ideas...so that maybe some of them could actually make a real impact :)

stashman
18-12-2006, 19:01
We need to do the High Elf a little bit better, BUT we have to do it simple. Too many rules is not good.

Archers 12pts.
Elfbow range 36" Armourpiercing. Shoot in 2 ranks.
Light Armour +1 pts

Lothern Seaguard 16 pts or 13 pts (Sea Patrol).
Spear, Shield, Elfbow & Light Armour. Shoot in 2 ranks.
Either make them Stubborn with a Commander or make them Skirmishers or make them Immune to Psychology
They protect the Seas around Ulthuan and has to be good.

Spear Elves 12pts
Spear, Shield & Ithilmar Armour (count as Heavy Armour)
To get 4+ Armoursave will do a great diffrence for them and point cost +1 to 12 will be good enough. Still Fights in 3 ranks.

Dragon Princes 26 pts
As before but "Immune to Psychology" as an added rule.

Ellyrian Reavers 24 pts
Give them Longbows and they be fine.

Swordmasters 13 pts
When you read the fluff this is one of the best fighting units in the Warhammer World. Too be that they need to be upgraded. Give the unit Killing Blow ability and a "Parry/Dodge" rule to give them +1 Armoursave and Ithilmar Armour (Count as Heavy Armour) just for them to have 4+. Its not overpowered and maybe rise the points to 15 instead of 13.

Phoenix Guard 15 pts
Fight in 2 ranks. Unbreakable or Stubborn. Cause Fear and never be joined by characters exept the Prince (Lord).

White Lions 13 pts
Make them Woodland Folk by giving the Skirmishers.

Noldo
18-12-2006, 19:37
I have two main hopes for the new High Elves book:

1.) I hope that GW manages to give High Elves a distinctive theme, especially compared to other two elven armies. To me that would most logically mean making them defensive army: up their armor save a bit, perhaps give bows ignore penalty for shooting at long range. Make High Elves one of the armies that can rely on letting the enemy to come to them.

2.) Give our three elite infantry units each their own role. Perhaps make swordmasters the hard hitting unit (that they already are), make white lions the fast and mobile strike force (skirmishing would be good start) and phoenix guard the solid backbone of the army (immune to psychology or unbreakable are good start). Don't know if it would really fit to background, as swordmasters are guardians of the white tower, white lions are bodyguards of the king and phoenix guard are guardians of the flame, but I really hope that they are each given their own role in the army. Because if they share the same role, people are going to use just the best of them, if any.

Solonor
18-12-2006, 19:44
[QUOTE=Noldo;1155980] 2.) Give our three elite infantry units each their own role. Perhaps make swordmasters the hard hitting unit (that they already are), make white lions the fast and mobile strike force (skirmishing would be good start) and phoenix guard the solid backbone of the army (immune to psychology or unbreakable are good start).QUOTE]

i agree with this point, this will give each a different role they can play in the army, although there would still be a conflit with white lions and phoenix guard regarding the stubborn/unbreakable rules.

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 20:11
Spear Elves with heavy armor and shield will have a 3+ save in combat because people forego the spears for the hand weapon/shield combo...

We playtested this 3 years ago when this was still Portent and we were trying to do a high elf revision and everyone was almost universally foregoing the spears for the 3+ armor save...

EvC
18-12-2006, 20:26
Hehe, that's specifically why in my rules wishlist I suggested giving the Hand Weapon and Shield bonus save to spears as well :D

IcedCrow
18-12-2006, 20:44
I think elf core infantry with a better armor save or equal than dwarfs or chaos warriors is a little over the top. Especially throwing in spears.

Paulus
18-12-2006, 21:05
High Elves getting the same armour save as Chaos Warriors?

I really did start a 'wish' list didn't I - Hee hee!

Really can't see that one happen I'm afraid although I'm sure all HE players would be pleasently suprised if it did.

Baindread
18-12-2006, 22:38
I don't play HE and I really don't know exactly what I would like to see in the new book. New items (Like the ones Empire DIDN'T get *rolleyes) and making the book competitive is enough.

Petey
19-12-2006, 00:42
We need to do the High Elf a little bit better, BUT we have to do it simple. Too many rules is not good.

Archers 12pts.
Elfbow range 36" Armourpiercing. Shoot in 2 ranks.
Light Armour +1 pts

the range is too great. long bow costs 5pt for range 30. 36 is insane for table top. It s not the max range that really matters in this one, it's the fact that your close range shooting with BS4 troups is now 18"
I say just drop the point cost to a reasonable 10pts and leave it there


Lothern Seaguard 16 pts or 13 pts (Sea Patrol).
Spear, Shield, Elfbow & Light Armour. Shoot in 2 ranks.
Either make them Stubborn with a Commander or make them Skirmishers or make them Immune to Psychology
They protect the Seas around Ulthuan and has to be good.

I don't see any of these things. Not and have them be core troops. I'ld rather they just get access to longbows with no point increase.


Spear Elves 12pts
Spear, Shield & Ithilmar Armour (count as Heavy Armour)
To get 4+ Armoursave will do a great diffrence for them and point cost +1 to 12 will be good enough. Still Fights in 3 ranks.

I can see this, but only if you add that the armor save is fixed like wood elf spear block armor save, you can't have these yahoos get a 3+ save for HW&S


Dragon Princes 26 pts
As before but "Immune to Psychology" as an added rule.

No way, this not only takes away tactical flexibility(no ability to flee, etc), but also makes them too good against fear. Elf have high leadership to be courageous, removing the chance of failure is against the spirit of them being courageous (hence so few Brets immune to fear/psych)


Ellyrian Reavers 24 pts
Give them Longbows and they be fine.

why would you bother giving them longbows and not lothern sea guard. this unit doesn't need it, they'll be close enough to the enemy anyway


Swordmasters 13 pts
When you read the fluff this is one of the best fighting units in the Warhammer World. Too be that they need to be upgraded. Give the unit Killing Blow ability and a "Parry/Dodge" rule to give them +1 Armoursave and Ithilmar Armour (Count as Heavy Armour) just for them to have 4+. Its not overpowered and maybe rise the points to 15 instead of 13.

I agree that this unit needs something, but i ld rather see it come from the unit champion like the exarchs from the eldar book, fixed cost, gives power to unit. In all, i like these ideas though.


Phoenix Guard 15 pts
Fight in 2 ranks. Unbreakable or Stubborn. Cause Fear and never be joined by characters exept the Prince (Lord).

ok, though fight in two ranks is very very very strong when you get +1S, this may need to be toned down, like the second rank gets no S bonus.


White Lions 13 pts
Make them Woodland Folk by giving the Skirmishers.

I can see this too, though i would add the raider rule to let them have 2 ranks in combat

EvC
19-12-2006, 13:21
Fight in two ranks for Phoenix Guard would still make them about as weak as standard Lizardmen, so I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Ender Shadowkin
22-12-2006, 18:22
For my Christmas wish, I would like Shadow Warriors to be able to take additional hand weapons and have a fighty chamption, they are supposed to be guerllas after all.