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jubilex
15-12-2006, 14:02
I have played four games with the new eldar. In each of them I have ran two farseers with stones, 2 powers and runes of witnessing (3d6 discarding the lowest for psychic tests). So far I have lost four, FOUR, YES FOUR farseers to perils of the warp. POW. :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: All of them went on turn one. The dome of crystal seers is now full and biel tan has no more farseers! It's the double one that is getting me every time. I think that the runes, being a defensive option, just seemed the way to go, but if you think about it, they make snake eyes more likely. Has anyone else had bad experiences like this, with farseers now t3 it is crippling me.

Spinegaunt01
15-12-2006, 14:09
Don't you mean discard the highest?

Yeah, I know how you feel. Although I don't play eldar myself, I've played in a game where after the opposing farseer cast doom on me, he then tried to cast fortune on himself, rolling two 1's and a five. After having to discarded the highest he suffered a PotW attack and died. Oh the irony.... I think they need to reword it so they can discard which ever di they wish cause really.... All it is doing is make farseers more likely to die instead of casting.

Mirehn
15-12-2006, 14:14
I would have to disagree , i have played quite a few games now and i always use a farseer, once he died from the POW but that was on the last turn with to farseers. Perhaps it does cause more POW i have not done the maths , but when was the last time you failed a test, i know i have not once since the new dex came out.

Kymar
15-12-2006, 14:14
I too have had my 4th ed Farseers calling down PotW more then I'd like, but with the Ghosthelm 3+ save, its has yet to kill any of them. Though, unless I'm facing something that lowers Leadership (Pariah, Psychic Scream, etc) I don't use the Runes of Witnessing because Leadership 10 is pretty easy to roll on 2D6.

jubilex
15-12-2006, 14:17
Yep, sorry discard the highest. I have yet to make a ghosthelm save. At least it's saving me wraithbone creds, not having to buy my ferseers birthday presents.

EldarRaven
15-12-2006, 15:00
I've had it happen to me. I think its rather annoying. They should have at least put something else in the runes that deals with Int-kill that they cane only take a single wound from it or made an item that we could at least buy that removes the ability of Int-kill for a POTW attack.

I do find it funny though that the mind of a Farseer can not take the hit from a deamon but a marine can and just be ok.

IJW
15-12-2006, 15:29
You do know that runes of witnessing increases the chances of PotW?

Son-Of-Sparda
15-12-2006, 15:32
Not had any experience of that, though I know how it feels!

With regards to changing the wording, I think it's fine as it is- the runes are there to make sure the power works, which it does as the Farseer has managed to pass the leadership test.

TwilightOdyssey
15-12-2006, 17:47
Wow, bummer.

I've never had a Farseer die from Perils yet, but there's always the chance that will happen. You really need to be rolling some sucky dice rolls for it to happen multiple times! :)

IJW
15-12-2006, 18:04
It's pretty unlucky to lose them all on the first turn each game, but over the whole game it's quite likely to lose at least one - two games x 6 turns per game x two Farseers x two powers per turn = 48 chances to die...

cav da man
15-12-2006, 19:48
I do find it funny though that the mind of a Farseer can not take the hit from a deamon but a marine can and just be ok.

They're more sensitive to it which makes them an easier target e.g. being able to see in the dark better makes your eyes more sensitive so brighter lights damage your eyes. Not being able to see well in the dark means that your eyes dont pick up light as well and dont get blown the next time you *gasp* go outside.
Does that make sense?
Cav

PaRaSiTe_X92
15-12-2006, 19:58
I think it should be reworded so they can choose which die to discard.

I wish there had been something like this:
Runes of Protection - 20pts (maybe more) - Never insta-killed by PotW

What do you think?

Karhedron
15-12-2006, 20:22
You do know that runes of witnessing increases the chances of PotW?

Actually the chances of suffering PotW are exactly the same with RoW as without. It does increase the risk of rolling a double-1 but it reduces the risk of rolling a double-6 by exactly the same amount so it evens out overall. RoW are not there to protect against PotW, they are there to increase the chance of the power working which admittedly they do.

Nebėhr Gudahtt
15-12-2006, 21:18
So, that would mean that the chances of rolling a double 1 or 6 is 2/36. Then you'd need to roll a 6 for the strength, wound on 2+, and then roll a 1 or a 2. Meaning that the likelihood of getting instant killed by Perils of the Warp is

2/36 x 1/6 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0026

per attempt, meaning you'd have to try 1/0,0026 = 384,61 times on average. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Tulun
15-12-2006, 21:25
PoTW is AUTOMATICALLY str 6 now. Always. This was changed in 4th edition. So, alas, it always causes instant death, except on Eldrad, the ungodly dead guy.

ShadowKitana
15-12-2006, 21:27
So, that would mean that the chances of rolling a double 1 or 6 is 2/36. Then you'd need to roll a 6 for the strength, wound on 2+, and then roll a 1 or a 2. Meaning that the likelihood of getting instant killed by Perils of the Warp is

2/36 x 1/6 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0026

per attempt, meaning you'd have to try 1/0,0026 = 384,61 times on average. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

POW is always S6 now.

Nebėhr Gudahtt
15-12-2006, 21:31
Ah, must have missed that. Let me try again.

2/36 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0154

0,0154 x 12 = 1848

Meaning that if he survives all game and uses two powers a turn (six turns), there's a 18-19% chance of him being eaten by demons. Still only likely to happen once every fifth game or so.

Bob5000
15-12-2006, 21:42
Yeh , stopped using ROW , as wanted a cheap Farseer , not much of a loss as I suspect that extra dice gave me an extra chance of rolling that double 1

Tulun
15-12-2006, 21:45
Yeah.. I think Runes of Warding is too dangerous now. I always used to take it to basically guarantee passing tests. Even I rolled 2 1's on 3 dice, I had a 4+ ghosthelm save, and I'd take, at best, 1 wound of 3.

Now, he just dies on a 2+, assuming the ghosthelm doesn't protect him (happened to me on my first game with Farseer. He lasted till turn 3 :( I only had 2d6, I just rolled 12). It's a big difference.

Nehcrum
16-12-2006, 01:21
Ah, must have missed that. Let me try again.

2/36 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0154

0,0154 x 12 = 1848

Meaning that if he survives all game and uses two powers a turn (six turns), there's a 18-19% chance of him being eaten by demons. Still only likely to happen once every fifth game or so.
And then add in Runes of Witnessing.

Using 3 dice, taking the 2 lower, will increase the chance of scoring a double 1, as compared to the chance of scoring either a double 1 or double 6 on 2 dice.

2 dice, 36 possible outcomes. 2 of those is 6+6 and 1+1. 2/36 that you get a PoW.

3 dice, 216 possible outcomes.
Here comes the problem. While 1+1+2 seems similar to 1+2+1 and 2+1+1, they are in fact 3 of the 216 possible combinations. All of which will cause PoW.
What you will have is 1+1+X, 1+X+1 and X+1+1 will all cause PoW, where X is any dice outcome between 1-6. 6+6+6 is also a PoW of course, but a lot less common.
So there is a 17/216 chance that you will get PoW with runes of witnessing, as compared to 2/36 without.

Or in decimal.
0.0787 chance with RoW
0.0555 chance without.
Or a rougly 42% increase chance for PoW with Runes of Witnessing as compared to without it.


To use your example above, with a farseer casting 2 powers per turn for 6 turns

2/36 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0154

0,0154 x 12 = 1848
(should be 0.1848 of course, forgot the "0.", my edit)
With RoW this turns into

17/216 x 5/6 x 2/6 = 0,0219

0,0219 x 12 = 0.2628

The chance a farseer dies to PoW is slightly over 26% chance every game if he casts 2 powers per turn for 6 turns.

1 chance in 4 that the psyker will kill himself even if he does everything right....

Kyrolon
16-12-2006, 04:42
This is the reason I see a lot of Eldar players either:

A.) Using the cheapest Farseer possible and ignoring the problem, or

B.) Fielding Eldrad under an assumed name. ;) After all he has all the toys, good special rules, the all important T4 and costs very little more.

I would really, really hate to field him all the time, but I see little choice. It might however make me actually try an army without a Farseer :eek:

Xarian
16-12-2006, 05:44
Okay, I'm going to assume that your 0.0787 chance is correct. Now, that's 7.78% chance per cast; we'll call this number F for failure.

In order to determine the chances of surviving n successive casts, you simply take the chance of surviving which is 100%-7.787% = 1-F and take it to the n power - statistics says that the chance for an event with probability P to occur n times in a row is P^n.

The results of this are disturbing, to say the least.
Now, assuming that we're casting twice per turn with runes of witnessing:
2 casts (1 turn) - 84.9% chance of surviving (15.1% chance of death)
4 casts (2 turns) - 72.2% chance of surviving (21.8% chance of death)
6 casts (3 turns) - 61.2% chance of surviving (38.8% chance of death)
8 casts (4 turns) - 51.9% chance of surviving (48.1% chance of death)
10 casts (5 turns) - 44.1% chance of surviving (55.9% chance of death)
12 casts (6 turns) - 37.4% chance of surviving (62.6% chance of death)

Let's compare this to a shot from a Lascannon:
1 shot has to roll a 3-6 to hit, a 2-6 to wound, and then a 1-3 for rune armor. so 4/6*5/6*3/6 = 60/216 = 27.8%
1 shot (1 turn) - 72.2% chance of surviving (27.8% chance of death)
2 shots (2 turns) - 52.2% chance of surviving (47.8% chance of death)
3 shots (3 turns) - 37.7% chance of surviving (62.3% chance of death)

What does this tell us?
Comparison:
4 casts - shot by lascannon 1 time
8 casts - shot by lascannon 2 times
12 casts - shot by lascannon 3 times

Or: every 4 casts you make with Runes of Witnessing is worth getting shot by a Lascannon once.

To all of you who think it's rare that your Farseer dies: if he's casting 2 spells a turn, he will only survive to cast 12 times roughly once in 3 games.

So, I ask again: how do Farseers manage to make it to "old age"?

spacemonkey
16-12-2006, 06:24
So, I ask again: how do Farseers manage to make it to "old age"?
Once they get lots of pratice, they take off the training wheels (aka RoW)? ;)

Lancaster
16-12-2006, 06:31
It's all about luck, I once had a game where 2/20 downed necrons made their WBB roles

MrLiy
16-12-2006, 07:56
well all the math majors are out...
time for the liberal arts guy to step in...
Well runes of witnessing give you a higher possibilit of casting those precious spells at just the right time. The downfall would be that you might kill yourself faster. In a fluff sense the farseer would be tapping more energy out of the warp in order to increase the possibility of well cast spell. This would naturally attract more demons, which would in turn make it more likely to suffer from POW. Makes sense to me...

Although maybe a point reduction is in order since the spell balances itself out a little without the need of a point inflation to make up for the advantage it provides.

Sarigar
16-12-2006, 11:35
I don't do statistics, but I play Eldrad and it happens no less than twice a game. The Ghosthelm has helped me a few times. I've rolled more '2's to save against the perils it's just not funny anymore. Thank goodness for T4. Unfortunately, I can guarantee my opponent he'll get 105 points off of me every game.

Rork
16-12-2006, 11:54
I have a farseer with doom and all the toys. So far I've lost him once to PotW, but also saved a couple as well.

I didn't like losing him, but I had prepared myself for it - he isn't a vital part of my plan so if he goes, it's not the end of the world.

So stop being a bunch of nervous nellies ;)

jubilex
16-12-2006, 11:57
Wow, math hammer. Puts it into perspective though. It's my birthday today and I don't even know how old I am (selective memory or senility, too close to call). Will try the twin farseers tomorrow again unless I lose my bottle. Actually, come to think of it, I don't have that much luck with warlocks either. I used four in a falcon for the first (tanith, anyone?) time with destructors against 20 odd, very odd, kroot in a wood. Burned them good, but immediately after, there was a loud bang and they threw their skirts over their heads and ran off screaming like little girls and were never seen again. The path of the seer, leads directly to the rear. What will happen then, will I break my run, or will the giant finger of statistical anomaly loom large once more above a battlefield in sleepy little Northampton? COBBLERS.

susu.exp
16-12-2006, 13:35
Okay, I'm going to assume that your 0.0787 chance is correct. Now, that's 7.78% chance per cast; we'll call this number F for failure.

In order to determine the chances of surviving n successive casts, you simply take the chance of surviving which is 100%-7.787% = 1-F and take it to the n power - statistics says that the chance for an event with probability P to occur n times in a row is P^n.

While this is correct, the 7.78% chance is false for the FS dying, there we have a 2.19% chance.

No. Prob D Prob S
1 2.19% 97.81%
2 4.33% 95.67%
3 6.43% 93.57%
4 8.48% 91.52%
5 10.48% 89.52%
6 12.44% 87.56%
7 14.36% 85.64%
8 16.23% 83.77%
9 18.07% 81.93%
10 19.86% 80.14%
11 21.62% 78.38%
12 23.33% 76.67%

So 6 Turns with 2 powers each has a lower probability of killing the FS than a lascannon shot.

Now without ROW it looks like this:

1 1.54% 98.46%
2 3.06% 96.94%
3 4.55% 95.45%
4 6.02% 93.98%
5 7.47% 92.53%
6 8.89% 91.11%
7 10.29% 89.71%
8 11.68% 88.32%
9 13.04% 86.96%
10 14.38% 85.62%
11 15.69% 84.31%
12 16.99% 83.01%

So the difference isn“t that big.

Fear is the mind killer
16-12-2006, 13:38
POW should just be altered from 'takes a S 6 hit' to 'loses a wound on 2+'. With the rules as they stand now, rogue psykers die even quicker than farseers (can have 2 powers and can't have an invulnerable save) and librarians are more resilient to having their brain fried if they're on a bike.

Alternatively, you could say that psykers take a S 7 hit (average strength of a greater daemon so it's fluffy) but models only lose 1 wound if wounded by this attack.

A house rule along these lines would work just fine.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
16-12-2006, 15:21
it would be nice if we even had the option of not use RoW on turns when we want less risk of PoTW... :(

i used to swear by them (not even bothering with a Ghosthelm, sometimes), but now they PoTW cause ID... what are we supposed to do? start using Eldrad in every list? stop taking RoW, which are supposed to be a benefit? or all go out and buy a Phoenix Lord and an Autarch (:eyebrows:)?

or just take it on the chin and expect to lose the Farseer (dont forget, dead doesnt necessarily mean "dead" - he could just be too exhausted after fending off the daemon to carry on with the battle... he could be too afraid to use his powers anymore, or he could flee the field hoping to lead the daemon away from his army), and make sure the powers i do cast really count?

~ Tim

Nehcrum
16-12-2006, 16:27
To all of you who think it's rare that your Farseer dies: if he's casting 2 spells a turn, he will only survive to cast 12 times roughly once in 3 games.

So, I ask again: how do Farseers manage to make it to "old age"?
As Susu pointed out. You forgot the to-wound roll and the ghosthelm save. What you have is only the chance that the Farseer will get a PoW attack, not the chance that he will die from it.


So the difference isn´t that big.
There is a pretty big difference actually, roughly 42% increase as I said earlier (but get's affected a bit by the to-wound roll and ghosthelm save...but roughly 42%, or with your numbers, 37%).


it would be nice if we even had the option of not use RoW on turns when we want less risk of PoTW... :(

i used to swear by them (not even bothering with a Ghosthelm, sometimes), but now they PoTW cause ID... what are we supposed to do? start using Eldrad in every list? stop taking RoW, which are supposed to be a benefit? or all go out and buy a Phoenix Lord and an Autarch (:eyebrows:)?

or just take it on the chin and expect to lose the Farseer (dont forget, dead doesnt necessarily mean "dead" - he could just be too exhausted after fending off the daemon to carry on with the battle after... he could be too afraid to use his powers anymore, or he could flee the field hoping to lead the daemon away from his army), and make sure the powers i do cast really count?

~ Tim
The problem with RoW (or with PoW attacks overall) is not their frequency. PoW attacks happen 1 in 6 games without RoW, 1 in 4 games with RoW.
The problem is that PoW attacks cause instant death on Farseer psykers. Losing a wound to PoW every 4 games isn't a problem. Losing the entire Farseer every 4 games is a big deal however.

The problem is that they decreased the Eldar Farseers Toughness to 3. And somehow failed to realize this problem.
I don't know, but is there any other "heavy" psyker out there (multi-wound IC choice) that has less than T4?
I think Eldar Farseers are the only ones that suffer from this instant death due to PoW problem. Something that seems very strange considering that Eldars should be the most psychic race out there, with the best psykers and the most connection to magic (with the possible exception of chaos).

noneedforaname
16-12-2006, 16:30
come on pretty much everything in the codex has had a major boost and your complaining about one little wrinkle.

try out the new shiny stuff, it works really well so you dont need to use an uber killy psyker of death. If you want one just use a cheap, bog standard one power a turn guy. Far less likely to turn himself inside out and if he does then its less points lost.

You got your rending ponies what more do you want?

Nebėhr Gudahtt
16-12-2006, 17:06
It would be very strange if they didn't realize this when writing the Codex. I'd assume it was intentional.

Morgrad
16-12-2006, 17:08
OK.... so you have an added risk to be able to cast TWO eldar psychic powers PER TURN, and this is somehow unfair and something to complain about?

Doom, Fortune, and Guide are all phenominal powers - and each one of you have the option to *not* cast two powers per turn on three dice. You get a very significant benefit for the added risk of his head going *pop!* - and I think it's completely ridiculous to only discuss the risk without discussing the benefit as a mitigator of that risk.

IJW
16-12-2006, 17:26
We could cast two powers a turn in the previous codex. Everyone is well aware of the benefits, it's just that the downside got a LOT more risky...

Nehcrum
16-12-2006, 17:44
It would be very strange if they didn't realize this when writing the Codex. I'd assume it was intentional.
Not that strange actually. GW has made several dumb things in various codexes, they don't seem to playtest them properly.


OK.... so you have an added risk to be able to cast TWO eldar psychic powers PER TURN, and this is somehow unfair and something to complain about?

We are well aware that casting two powers per turn increases the risks. And that RoW also increases the risks.

Both of these things existed in the last codex as well.

The problem is not the PoW in itself. The problem is that it now insta-kills the Farseer.
Eldrad does not have a problem with this, despite the fact that he runs the same risks as a Farseer of getting a PoW, higher in fact, since he can cast 3 powers per turn. But Eldrad does not suffer the fatal weakness of having T3.

This problem could easily be solved in a Errata where they upgrade the ghosthelm by adding that it also makes it so PoW can only ever cause 1 wound at a time (immunity to instant death from PoW).


And yes, it would be quite typhical of GW to completely miss the fact that a PoW S6 will insta-kill a T3 psyker.

Fear is the mind killer
16-12-2006, 18:40
The problem is that they decreased the Eldar Farseers Toughness to 3. And somehow failed to realize this problem.
I don't know, but is there any other "heavy" psyker out there (multi-wound IC choice) that has less than T4?
Most armies are allowed a rogue psyker or psychic apocalypse if fighting witch hunters. They're T 3, W 5, no inv save and average leadership. Their fluff says that they are one of the most powerful types of psyker, and that they have learned to fend off things that reach for them in the night (daemonic attacks = POW?) and they can use 2 powers in the same turn. Yet somehow these poor lads die so often from POW it's ridiculous. Hence my suggested changes in my previous post.

Nehcrum
16-12-2006, 19:13
Most armies are allowed a rogue psyker or psychic apocalypse if fighting witch hunters. They're T 3, W 5, no inv save and average leadership. Their fluff says that they are one of the most powerful types of psyker, and that they have learned to fend off things that reach for them in the night (daemonic attacks = POW?) and they can use 2 powers in the same turn. Yet somehow these poor lads die so often from POW it's ridiculous. Hence my suggested changes in my previous post.
Rogue psykers can't really be said to be standard HQ psykers tho.
They aren't even in any normal army but is only available under special circumstances (when your opponent is a witch hunter, you may take units out of the witch hunter codex....).

They also only cost 20 points.

Overall, the rogue psyker gets disqualified from this discussion since it is a very special case, and not part of any normal army list (try taking one in your list to a tournament).

Fear is the mind killer
16-12-2006, 19:47
It was just a perfect example of a psychic multi-wound character that is very common (if you play in friendly games then you don't need to be playing witch hunters in the same way that you can use daemonic adversaries without fighting DH if your opponent's okay with it). My point was that having a S 6 POW has a major drawback against T3 psykers such as the rogue psyker and the farseer if the POW can instakill, so either don't allow it to cause Instant Death or change the wounding roll, such as 2+ to wound or S 5.

The reason they cost 40pts (must purchase at least 1 power) is because he can normally only be taken against an army specifically designed to kill him, in a similar vein to grey knights causing daemons to have the Sustained Assault/Without Number rule except that numberless psykers would be harder to explain. This is also why you are allowed to upgrade your HQ to have super psychic powers for free when ordinarily you would have to pay quite a bit for such an upgrade.

I never go to tournaments, far too restrictive, and it can't be a game if it's not friendly IMO.

Torgo
16-12-2006, 20:00
Don't Inquisitors have T3? And they don't even get a ghosthelm save.

Xarian
18-12-2006, 00:29
Don't Inquisitors have T3? And they don't even get a ghosthelm save.

Yes, you're right there, but you have to consider that Inquisitors have a multitude of other options that makes them attractive - their psychic powers aren't typically what makes them attractive.

1. Allow the use of unique units (Assassins, Psyk-Out Warheads)
2. (Lords) Allow you to bring a retinue of shooty death
3. Huge customizability (Wargear)
4. Don't have to take a psychic power

Compare this to Farseers, who:

1. Allow access to one unique unit (Warlocks)
2. Have no retinue
3. Have pretty much 2 choices for wargear - be a marching psychic power factory or be a jetbike-riding psychic power factory
4. Have to take a psychic power (most of which are extremely expensive)

So they're not really equivalent.

Note - the probabilities I presented earlier are off somewhat (as was noted by others). However, the base probability to die from a PotW attack is actually 0.244 (216 possibilities total; 18 ways to get double 1s and 1 way to get double 6s, 5/6 chance of wounding, 2/6 chance of failing GH save = 19/216*5/6*2/6 = 190/7776 =~2.4%)

Either way, there's still only a 74% chance of surviving through the entire game, which is pretty much unacceptable for me and all the others out there who are below the statistical mean for rolling :o

I don't like it. The change makes me feel dirty. I'm doing everything I can to keep my pointy-eared friends alive and kicking so they can get the race going again. I would think that the Eldar would have banned the use of psychic powers if the chance of them getting killed by them was so high.

marv335
18-12-2006, 01:05
so don't take a farseer, take an autarch.
or don't use two powers every turn/runes of witnessing.
all these things increase your survivability

the T went down, but that was no surprise really, it's the way 4th ed is going to be. most races will have the same base T all through the range.

Torgo
18-12-2006, 01:10
Actually, my (too succint) point was that the change ins't unfair just to Farseers, but to all T3 psykers. Farseers stand out because being a psyker is all they really have going for them. Plus, I haven't seen many complaints about Farseers being easier to kill through normal means, mostly just about Power of the Warp attacks. This indicates to me that we are upset about this specific rule, and are not simply whining about nerfed Farseers.

marv335
18-12-2006, 01:11
farseers still get a 3+ save against POTW. that's more than anyone else does.

Locke
18-12-2006, 03:57
farseers still get a 3+ save against POTW. that's more than anyone else does.

Yeah but why cant they have something special? In the 4th eldar codex they lost their specialness in alot of ways. Farseers have generally less combat skill than almost any other psycher, they have no way of stopping a psychic hood, and their main status for being is detrimented by the PotW.

GW messed up on this and im fairly sure that the way the rule was written has a different intent. GW messes alot of things up from the lower ap values against horde troopers, to the basic undercosting of alot of units, to deep striking land speeders. The developers dont really care about a small rule issue, they dont number crunch and I dont even believe they take "army theme" into pointing out units properly.

Yet another small insignificant mess up...

spacemonkey
18-12-2006, 06:50
so don't take a farseer, take an autarch.
or don't use two powers every turn/runes of witnessing.
all these things increase your survivability

the T went down, but that was no surprise really, it's the way 4th ed is going to be. most races will have the same base T all through the range.


Actually, my (too succint) point was that the change ins't unfair just to Farseers, but to all T3 psykers. Farseers stand out because being a psyker is all they really have going for them. Plus, I haven't seen many complaints about Farseers being easier to kill through normal means, mostly just about Power of the Warp attacks. This indicates to me that we are upset about this specific rule, and are not simply whining about nerfed Farseers.

Yes, "Perils" of the Warp has gotten riskier for T3 psykers, a daemon just tried to eat the psyker's brain/soul. Considering it's kind of hard to function without a brain or soul, instant death doesn't seem so out of place. If they chose to use two powers per turn (something other psykers can't consistently do) or use RoW, it's more likely PotW will happen; it's a risk they knowingly take. Deal with it. As pointed out before, Farseers still recieve the best protection from PotW via the Ghosthelm.

Spotty
18-12-2006, 07:10
Ghaaahaaahaaahaahaahahhahahhahahhaaaa!!
*whew*
im sorry i couldnt help myself. its just that everyones going crazy about their farseer dying and i have never even suffered perils of the warp yet in my four years of eldar skill. i guess thats what i get for bedding down with lady luck..

Barbarossa
18-12-2006, 08:33
Yeah but why cant they have something special? In the 4th eldar codex they lost their specialness in alot of ways. Farseers have generally less combat skill than almost any other psycher, they have no way of stopping a psychic hood, and their main status for being is detrimented by the PotW.

Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords of both the Ordo Hereticus and the Ordo Malleus have been affected by this since 4th ed. came out.
IG sanctioned psykers (they are multiwound when they have the Honorifica Imperialis) don't even get a to-wound roll all the time - they get killed off by the comissar as soon as they roll a PotW or get instakilled if no comissar is around.
Mercenary Kroot generals can have psy powers and they're T3 too. All of these die a horrible death while the Farseers still have a 2/3rds chance to hide beneath their ghosthelm. Since they are the ONLY ones to have any protection that makes them special enough.

noneedforaname
18-12-2006, 11:37
Complaining about deep striking landspeeders? why? i think you find landspeeders cant shoot on the turn they deep strike and therefore are just sitting ducks.

As for complaints about psychic hoods, Boo Hoo! my psychic power doesnt work maybe 50% of the time so thats still a power a turn if your casting twice.

You dont see guard pyskers, inquisitors or kroot psykers complaining that runes of warding make it pretty damn certain they are going to get insta-killed if they use a power. They also have the ability to seriously negate a large portion of marine psychics and cause them wounds even if they aren't isnta-death.

MadJackMcJack
18-12-2006, 11:42
I wish the bastard Farseers around here would fail more tests. Doom is seriously starting to **** me off.

Anathema
18-12-2006, 13:08
Since they are the ONLY ones to have any protection that makes them special enough.


I think you'll find that marine psykers having T4 is a fair bit of protection from insta-kill by perils also......

I think the main bone of contention is that Farseers are rather expensive models, especially when given enough gear to be useful. Certainly more expensive than Sanctioned Psykers. They also don't have a great deal of CC power, compared to marine pskers and normal inquisitorial builds.
therefore, that high cost is a hell of a lot of points when you can insta-killed by perils and virtually every armour ignoring weapon in the game. I never really heard about anyone complaining about individual Farseers being overpowered with the old codex, which tells me that people never really saw them as such. Hence the question, why the nerf?

Darkangeldentist
18-12-2006, 13:08
Here here!

I've yet to see a farseer kill himself and think they get quite enough protection as is. Yes if perils of the warp gets through the ghosthelm he's instantly killed but he does have that ghosthelm. Which is more than anyone else gets.

Ultimately this issue is a whine, not a petty one but still a whine. Farseers are now potent, useful and can provide a wealth of support for an eldar army. That they can be wiped out by single peril of the warp attack simply reflects the fragility of the eldar. Not to mention how dangerous warp entities are to them.

Plus let us not forget those who suffer the most from perils of the warp. Grey knights, i admit i'm not sure if the errata has changed this but if a grey knight terminator squad suffers perils of the warp every member of the squad take a hit. With no saves of any kind!:eek:

So please let us think of the poor members of the ordo malleus before thinking how hard done-by the eldar are by perils of the warp. (If i'm wrong about the demonhunters issue, sorry in advance)

Griffin
18-12-2006, 14:24
I have yet to have my Farseer Kill herself - It has not happened once under the new rules.

Barbarossa
18-12-2006, 14:24
No, you're right. A whole Grey Knight Terminator squad, the best fighters of the most pure chapter in all of the Imperium, each a powerful psyker if you believe the background, will drop dead on a 2+ from a single unlucky roll.


I think the main bone of contention is that Farseers are rather expensive models, especially when given enough gear to be useful. Certainly more expensive than Sanctioned Psykers.
Yes they are more expensive than Sanctioned psykers. But if you give an Inquisitor some decent equipment (plus the henchmen that an Inq Lord HAS to have) you'll find that these men easily come up to the cost of a Farseer or more.

Locke
18-12-2006, 15:47
Complaining about deep striking landspeeders? why? i think you find landspeeders cant shoot on the turn they deep strike and therefore are just sitting ducks.

As for complaints about psychic hoods, Boo Hoo! my psychic power doesnt work maybe 50% of the time so thats still a power a turn if your casting twice.

You dont see guard pyskers, inquisitors or kroot psykers complaining that runes of warding make it pretty damn certain they are going to get insta-killed if they use a power. They also have the ability to seriously negate a large portion of marine psychics and cause them wounds even if they aren't isnta-death.


Land speeders fired after deepstriking for 2 years... and by the rules they still should... but since it wasnt in the chaos codex it was an easy faq fix...

guard psychers are cheap and most other psychers have a close combat ability, other than being able to cast 2 powers a turn then havinbg to pay for it... what do farseers have... Plus arent sanctioned psychers hidden characters or isnt there a way to make them hidden upgrades?

oohhh they can fleet I forgot, I guess that are uber mac daddies then...

Giltharin
18-12-2006, 16:18
I don't think that the present situation for the Farseers is unfair. It's risky business, but casting multiple powers can be rewarding. Back to the starting point, loosing 4 in 4 games, is probably just bad luck.

Cheers
Giltharin

Angelus Mortis
18-12-2006, 16:25
No offense, but I have a hard time feeling bad about it. I mean, have you ever lost an entire 10 man Squad of GK terminators to perils of the warp? You want to talk about frustrating?

DoctorTom
18-12-2006, 17:42
Here here!

I've yet to see a farseer kill himself and think they get quite enough protection as is. Yes if perils of the warp gets through the ghosthelm he's instantly killed but he does have that ghosthelm. Which is more than anyone else gets.

Well, not everyone else. I would say that Tzeench sorcerers' automatic passing of psychic tests is a far better protection against Perils of the Warp than a Ghosthelm. :)


Ultimately this issue is a whine, not a petty one but still a whine. Farseers are now potent, useful and can provide a wealth of support for an eldar army. That they can be wiped out by single peril of the warp attack simply reflects the fragility of the eldar. Not to mention how dangerous warp entities are to them.

The 'fragility of the Eldar' that people refer to has traditionally been their fragility in standard firefights or close assault, not about psychic fragility. And as for farseers 'now' being potent - they were potent before, if people wanted to pay the points for the spirit stones then. The problem is that Farseers had a toughness of 4 before and wouldn't suffer Instant Death, whereas now they do with their toughness being lowered. This has made them less potent as psykers as they tend to become casualties far more often - there's a big difference between suffering 1 wound and suffering Instant Death.

It wouldn't have been bad if the ghosthelm had given them +1 toughness for the purposes of resisting PotW, even if the save had remained at 4+ - it would have been a reasonable trade for losing the ability of Ghosthelms to mess up the WS of Daemons. (Now a new piece of gear for the Autarchs that did the WS lowering ability for Daemons might not have been a bad option - provided a 3rd choice in addition to the banshee mask or mandihat.)

Torgo
18-12-2006, 18:16
In my opinion, it isn't T3 Farseers that's the problem, it's that perils is so much deadlier now. Farseers may be nerfed by it, but they're still relatively safe and useful, and that's not the case for all psykers. It's a perils problem, not a Eldar problem.

Minister
18-12-2006, 18:29
I would agree on that. Either make it strength 5, or make it an automatic wound on N+, not S6.

noneedforaname
18-12-2006, 19:27
If you don't want your brain eaten by a daemonic entity that wants to wear your still twitching corpse as a party hat don't dabble with the warp.

Simple enough really.

Laughingmonk
18-12-2006, 20:38
I'm undecided on the issue.

While it sucks that one unlucky roll will kill your seer, it also adds a new element of decision making which Imakes sense (fluffwise).

I can either lay off the abilities, and use them only when I need too, and odds are my farseer will survive, or I can pump two powers a turn and probably fry his brain. It even says in the book that the over ambitious will invite the most heinous damnation!

But, then again, my farseer once died the first power he cast that game from PoTW, so sometimes I fume at the possibility (though generally remote) from perils killing the seer.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
18-12-2006, 22:56
any of you number crunching wizards want to work out how the odds of survival are improved by having a Warlock with Embolden in the same unit as the Farseer (now that it's rules have been changed to include Psy tests)?

seems that while they took away with one hand (Farseers now Insta-killable by PoTW) they gave back with the other (improved Ghosthelm protection, Embolden working on Ld tests now).

so, how much does that help?

~ Tim

Nehcrum
18-12-2006, 23:42
any of you number crunching wizards want to work out how the odds of survival are improved by having a Warlock with Embolden in the same unit as the Farseer (now that it's rules have been changed to include Psy tests)?

seems that while they took away with one hand (Farseers now Insta-killable by PoTW) they gave back with the other (improved Ghosthelm protection, Embolden working on Ld tests now).

so, how much does that help?

~ Tim
Depends if you include that you can re-roll successful rolls as well as failed ones.

If you can only re-roll failed ones, odds wouldn't change much since only 6,6,6 on 3D6 would be a PotW and allow a re-roll.

The most common PotW is the double 1 (for RoW), which embolden will only allow re-roll if you can re-roll the succeful rolls.

(And then you can start arguing about using Doom as a defensive power by re-rolling the successful to-wound rolls).

Lord Malek The Red Knight
19-12-2006, 01:47
Depends if you include that you can re-roll successful rolls as well as failed ones...(And then you can start arguing about using Doom as a defensive power by re-rolling the successful to-wound rolls).
well Embolden specifies "failed" (and Doom doesnt - which makes sense, as the eventual doom of unit may be brought about by keeping them in CC just a little bit longer, for example).

now here's a funny thing: p14 of the rulebook specifies that a Ld test is on 2D6... so is it still a Ld test once you start using things like RoW? by (silly) RaW that may make them immune to PoTW (due to wording on p52 specifying "Leadership test"), but on a more serious note, would it still allow re-rolls for Embolden? or do the 2 arguments cancel eachother out? i.e. if my opponent says "no re-roll as its not (what p14 describes as) an Ld test", i can say "OK then, no Perils either, by that logic!" and i get to use my re-roll.


If you can only re-roll failed ones, odds wouldn't change much since only 6,6,6 on 3D6 would be a PotW and allow a re-roll.
hmm, yeah, good point.

how about comparing the ratio of Successful casts to Peril's deaths between RoW (no Embolden) and Embolden (no RoW)? maybe even throw in RoW + Embolden for the full picture?

cheers :)

~ Tim

Drasriath
19-12-2006, 04:25
With rolling like that don't ever use Terminators. Yeesh.

chickenuggets
19-12-2006, 07:03
i play uthwe so i take elrad uthran almost every game and another farseer. the normal farseer dosent take RoW and almost never dies to a PoW atk, but elrad loses about 1-2 wounds per game to it. nothing else kills him with a fortuned 3+ inv sav but dam i hate PoW. i agree with alot of other ppl o nthis thread that they should change the RoW rules to discard a dice of your choice...